1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: By the way, we'll be giving you updates. There's lots 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: to talk about in the Phillips case that's transpired over 3 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: the last twenty four hours, or bringing all the updates 4 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: as we go through now. As I mentioned, it's going 5 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: to be a really tough road to recovery for the 6 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: recovered Phillips children. They are now in state care. Sarah 7 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Chatwin is a child psychologist and with us Hi Sarah, Hi, Heather, 8 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: what do you, by the way, what do you think 9 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: about that the documentary idea? 10 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: I'm team Heather. 11 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 3: I think I can't imagine what the point of that is. 12 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 3: So a man is now dead, his children are retraumatized, 13 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 3: It's just a mess. I'm a psychologist and I'm in shock. 14 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 3: What would be the point of that documentary? Can you 15 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 3: tell me what the point is? Is it making. 16 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: Heroes of the police? I don't know what the. 17 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Point are I think I think that probably was the 18 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: point originally if you think Aboutnett from a police perspective, 19 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: as to show the effort that they're making to get 20 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: this right. 21 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: And I understand, and you know, boy, they had a 22 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 3: big job ahead of them because it's been four years 23 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: right now, I just don't see how this has played out, 24 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: how that necessitates a documentary that's just sensationalizing a time 25 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 3: in our history that we just want to let go 26 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 3: of and allow these children to. Oh, you know, they've 27 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 3: got a lot of hurdles. It's a journey. And I 28 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 3: believe in the resilience of children and people generally, but 29 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 3: this is a biggie. You've been living a certain way 30 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: for four years. You have seen a lot of stuff 31 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 3: that kids shouldn't see. You have not been exposed to 32 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 3: social connection and interaction. You've lost a lot of time, 33 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 3: you've had no education, You've been living with your dad. 34 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: You love him, he's now dead. 35 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 3: And then, as you said, you know, in years to come, 36 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: you're reliving it. 37 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 38 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: I did talk about responsible reporting yesterday when I was, 39 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: you know, talking to people about what had happened. I'm 40 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 3: not sure that that's a responsible documentary. I understand, and 41 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: I do appreciate, and I'm sure we all do appreciate 42 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: the links that the police went to to try to 43 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: secure a better outcome than this, more peaceful outcome than this, 44 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: But it hasn't happened, and this is a really, really 45 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: bad time for a whole lot of people and families. 46 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: So no, I'm team here. 47 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: All right, Sarah. I'm pleased to get your perspective on 48 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: that now from tell me after four years in the bush, 49 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: presumably having not seen your mother and your grandparents, are 50 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: these people basically strangers to you if you're twelve, nine 51 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: to eight. 52 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 3: Look, I definitely think there's road to recovery there, and 53 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: those people will obviously always be a part of the 54 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 3: children's lives. I mean, I don't know why there was 55 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: such a fracture in this family to begin with, and 56 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: why a mother wasn't more involved in the upbringing of 57 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: her children. I don't have all the facts on that, 58 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: so I'm not going to comment to that, but I 59 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: think that you know, there are hopefully people that are 60 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: very willing and able to be part of these children's 61 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: lives in a secure kind of a way, but for 62 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: kids to feel secure, which points us in the direction 63 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 3: of consistent care, unconditional love, and physical and emotional safety 64 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: pretty much none of which these kids have had for 65 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 3: a long time. 66 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: And I'm not just talking four years, but prior to. 67 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 3: That, there was obviously some dispute and things going on 68 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 3: in a marital relationship. 69 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: A relationship that wasn't quite right. 70 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: So, you know, these kids very very quickly need to 71 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: gain that sense of security, and they need consistent care, 72 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 3: unconditional love. 73 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: Physical and emotional safety. 74 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 3: So whoever can give them that is the right person 75 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: to be put in front of them. And I'm just 76 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: not sure who that is. I'm not in possession of 77 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: those facts, and I'm not in a position to say, 78 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: you know, where they are at the moment. I guess 79 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: there's a lot of assessment going on, right. 80 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what it sounds like is, judging by what 81 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: the cops are saying, they are allowing the kids to 82 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: settle wherever it is that they're settling. This is not 83 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: with the mother, it's not with the grandparents. They're settling somewhere, 84 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: and in the weeks to come, the police will only 85 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: interview them with an expert. Is that kind of how 86 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: you expect that it should play. 87 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 3: I would have expected that there was, yes, a period 88 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: of assessment, both you know, physiological and psychological. 89 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: So that sounds that sounds right. I'm not sure about 90 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: the context. 91 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: I guess because they have been away from mother, grandparents, 92 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 3: I guess we're taking into account members of you know, 93 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 3: their uncles and aunties on their father's side. 94 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: Or grandparents on their father's side. 95 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: I'm not sure who is available, but I guess that 96 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 3: the powers that be would look or the experts, you know, 97 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 3: psychologists such as myself, would look at who those key 98 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: people are and how they could be introduced to the 99 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: children again without retraumatizing them. So it's a it's a 100 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: very it's a delicate situations together all of them. The children, Yes, 101 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: I would, Well, they've been to get they've been their 102 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: own support crew for four years that you know, obviously 103 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 3: the only one missing his dad, So absolutely I would 104 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: suggest that they're kept together. That would be again another insult, 105 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: adding that insult to already a very injured kind of 106 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 3: a situation. 107 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: So yes, I would keep them together. 108 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: I mean, the three children same genetic background, but they're 109 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 3: probably all very different children. They're at slightly different ages, 110 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: and they have different needs, different personality types. I mean, 111 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 3: one child was obviously a child that the father you know, 112 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: took with him when he went and you know, did 113 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: some pretty out there kind of stuff with regard to 114 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: including a child and that kind of stuff, you know, 115 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 3: the theft and the rakens and all the rest of it. 116 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 3: I guess, you know, is that what you do when 117 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 3: you're very desperate to survive. So you know, there would 118 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: be different perceptions that those kids would have of the 119 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: four years. They played different roles in that scenario, They 120 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 3: had different things that they were doing, and all the while, 121 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 3: you know, there was a lot of deprivation. There was 122 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: social deprivation, for menial deprivation. I suspect that at times 123 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 3: they were hungry, tired. So there's a lot to assess 124 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 3: in this period. 125 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: Sarah, Thank you. Was always really appreciate your expertise. Sarah Chatwin, 126 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: child psychologist from from Basically, we're gleaning things every single 127 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: time there is a press conference. And it would appear 128 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: that at this stage, even though the children were rescued 129 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: at around about this time yesterday, the mother has not 130 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: yet been granted access by ordering a tamaikey to see them, 131 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: and also Tom Phillips's parents haven't either. Now that at 132 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the stage, OT is simply not answering any questions as 133 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: to whether that is standard procedure or if that has 134 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: got anything to do with the family court rulings that 135 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: have been made in the past. No idea, no idea, 136 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: what is going on. But that is the fact as 137 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: we understand it. Hither I agree. I don't want these 138 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: kids chased like the Laws and Quins or the Ingham Twins. 139 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: Good point, Trisha. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, 140 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: listen live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 141 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.