WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #266 - November 20th 2024 - Dr Michael Johnston 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news Talks It be 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.373 follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.733 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:22.453 the information, all the debates. 0:00:21.933 --> 0:00:27.533 Off now the Layton Smith podcast powered by news Talks It. 0:00:27.613 --> 0:00:30.413 Be Welcome to podcasts number two hundred and sixty six 0:00:30.533 --> 0:00:33.853 for November twenty, twenty twenty four. Now I know I 0:00:33.893 --> 0:00:36.533 spend a lot of time on matters relating to education. 0:00:37.053 --> 0:00:40.853 It is because of the importance of schooling, and not 0:00:40.893 --> 0:00:44.853 just schooling, but universities and other forms of education in 0:00:44.933 --> 0:00:48.533 the interests of the individual and the country. It's much 0:00:48.573 --> 0:00:51.933 the same story over most of the world, but especially 0:00:52.093 --> 0:00:56.773 in Anglo speaking countries, the headwinds that have battered many 0:00:56.853 --> 0:00:59.813 lives and destroyed reputations. By that, I means schools and 0:00:59.973 --> 0:01:04.453 universities have been difficult to counter. The interview with doctor 0:01:04.453 --> 0:01:08.013 Michael Johnson is I think quite revealing and should be 0:01:08.053 --> 0:01:10.733 heard by a wide range of people. Please do not 0:01:10.893 --> 0:01:15.173 hesitate to send it to anyone you think come is relevant. 0:01:15.773 --> 0:01:20.293 And by that I mean parents, grandparents, teachers, kids, And 0:01:20.413 --> 0:01:23.173 it was hearing the intent of Donald Trump to eliminate 0:01:23.213 --> 0:01:27.013 the Department of Education in the United States that inspired 0:01:27.053 --> 0:01:30.413 by contacting Michael to invite him on, and he was 0:01:30.453 --> 0:01:33.533 only too happy to He has plenty to say. At 0:01:33.533 --> 0:01:36.773 the back end of two double six, we make reference 0:01:36.853 --> 0:01:39.693 to other matters that are of interest to most of you, 0:01:40.053 --> 0:01:42.893 that are of interest to most of you, the WHO, 0:01:42.973 --> 0:01:48.213 the World Health Organization, the trashing of Parliament being amongst them, 0:01:48.253 --> 0:01:54.333 an artificial intelligence, and democracy also. But next Michael Johnson. 0:02:11.133 --> 0:02:14.133 Education has been a battleground for as long as I 0:02:14.173 --> 0:02:18.333 can remember, a war zone between specifically left and right, 0:02:18.573 --> 0:02:22.853 socialism and freedom. Michael Johnson has had a lengthy career 0:02:22.853 --> 0:02:27.613 in education at all levels. He was when I became 0:02:27.693 --> 0:02:31.813 aware of him, he was at Victoria University. He is now. 0:02:32.413 --> 0:02:36.253 He leads the education work at the New Zealand Initiative, 0:02:36.413 --> 0:02:39.053 which is doing good things in spite of what you 0:02:39.173 --> 0:02:43.933 might read about it occasionally in well in the commentary 0:02:43.933 --> 0:02:48.493 from some of some of the media. Michael Johnson, we've 0:02:48.493 --> 0:02:50.293 had you on the podcast before, of course, you know, 0:02:50.413 --> 0:02:56.693 stranger to people on this particular platform, and I have 0:02:56.733 --> 0:02:57.773 to say it's always good to. 0:02:57.693 --> 0:03:00.293 Talk with you, and you it's great to be here. 0:03:00.933 --> 0:03:03.533 Now, would you disagree with anything I've said so far 0:03:03.653 --> 0:03:05.293 about education being a battleground. 0:03:05.533 --> 0:03:09.253 I think it is a battleground. To describe it as 0:03:09.293 --> 0:03:12.853 a battle between left and right to me kind of odd. 0:03:13.013 --> 0:03:16.253 I mean, it non pluses me to an extent that 0:03:16.933 --> 0:03:20.093 it is such a political battleground. And the reason I 0:03:20.133 --> 0:03:23.333 say that is, actually we have quite a wealth of 0:03:23.373 --> 0:03:28.173 evidence on what effective teaching looks like and how to 0:03:28.613 --> 0:03:32.213 teach children to read, for example, and how to teach 0:03:32.253 --> 0:03:38.093 them in general along the lines of understanding human information processing, 0:03:38.173 --> 0:03:41.573 human memory, human attention, this kind of thing, and also 0:03:41.653 --> 0:03:45.013 the necessity for children not to be stressed in order 0:03:45.053 --> 0:03:48.893 to learn best. There's all kinds of things that we know, 0:03:49.693 --> 0:03:52.453 and so why it needs to be a political battle 0:03:53.213 --> 0:03:57.413 is a little strange. And certainly why there is a 0:03:57.493 --> 0:04:01.333 conflict between left and right if indeed the distinction left 0:04:01.373 --> 0:04:05.253 and right really makes sense in the modern political context. 0:04:05.773 --> 0:04:08.013 So I think that's the only thing that I would 0:04:08.093 --> 0:04:11.293 question about your introduction, is what we mean by left 0:04:11.333 --> 0:04:14.533 and right and why things have turned out the way 0:04:14.573 --> 0:04:18.613 they have. I guess part of it is patch protection 0:04:18.773 --> 0:04:22.293 on the part of the unions. They tend to oppose 0:04:22.333 --> 0:04:26.973 things like charter schools. They oppose things like structuring teachers 0:04:27.053 --> 0:04:31.013 careers so that they get paids according to the quality 0:04:31.013 --> 0:04:33.613 of their practice rather than how long that been teachers, 0:04:34.693 --> 0:04:37.453 which is the current scenario. So there are certainly some 0:04:37.493 --> 0:04:43.253 specific things that the unions influence labor governments over which 0:04:43.333 --> 0:04:49.893 makes reform more difficult, But I think the fundamental ground 0:04:49.893 --> 0:04:53.373 of the battle is deeper than that. Arguably it goes 0:04:53.413 --> 0:04:58.373 back as far as philosophers like junjak Russo, who saw 0:04:58.533 --> 0:05:01.613 children as coming into the world more or less perfectly formed, 0:05:01.813 --> 0:05:04.693 and we messed them up when we've put them in 0:05:04.733 --> 0:05:11.693 formal education systems versus I guess a more pragmatic view 0:05:11.773 --> 0:05:15.093 of human beings, which is that there's there's a great 0:05:15.093 --> 0:05:19.453 deal of knowledge and disciplinary ideas that have to be 0:05:21.053 --> 0:05:24.773 inculcated in children and young people in order to make 0:05:24.813 --> 0:05:30.653 them effective citizens. So there is that disagreement about learning itself. 0:05:31.973 --> 0:05:35.533 But really pragmatically, I think that we actually have good 0:05:35.573 --> 0:05:39.933 evidence on how education systems best function. 0:05:40.533 --> 0:05:44.253 And okay, let me let me ask you. Let me 0:05:44.253 --> 0:05:46.573 ask you a question. Would you would you feel more 0:05:46.573 --> 0:05:50.053 comfortable with progressives versus conservatives? 0:05:50.573 --> 0:05:54.453 Well, it depends what you mean in their educational context. 0:05:55.613 --> 0:05:58.413 Levy. Let me let me take it a step further 0:05:58.493 --> 0:06:01.853 than you say that we know the best way to 0:06:01.893 --> 0:06:02.453 do things. 0:06:03.533 --> 0:06:06.733 We have very good scientific, scientific evidence. 0:06:07.893 --> 0:06:13.333 So so open classrooms. Where does that fall in that scenario. 0:06:14.253 --> 0:06:17.533 Well, open classrooms have no evidence space for them at all, 0:06:17.613 --> 0:06:20.053 and that turned out to be quite a catastrophe, and 0:06:20.453 --> 0:06:26.413 many schools are now trying to reverse the situation building 0:06:26.453 --> 0:06:31.773 walls to recreate cellular classrooms. Now, that whole thing was 0:06:31.813 --> 0:06:35.533 bizarre because it entailed spending a huge amount of money 0:06:35.573 --> 0:06:38.853 with no evidence space, against the will of many schools. 0:06:39.253 --> 0:06:44.693 But doesn't that forward of the category of progressivism. 0:06:46.853 --> 0:06:47.853 Arguably it does. 0:06:48.013 --> 0:06:51.053 The rationale that was used by the ministry for forcing 0:06:51.093 --> 0:06:56.853 schools to build these environments was a progressivist agenda. I 0:06:56.893 --> 0:07:00.733 think that's true. It was about, you know, child centered, 0:07:00.813 --> 0:07:04.853 child led education, and the idea that if we created 0:07:04.893 --> 0:07:09.533 these big barns and allowed children to roam around in them, 0:07:09.613 --> 0:07:13.173 that they would, you know, acquire the knowledge they need. 0:07:13.533 --> 0:07:15.893 And that is a very Roussouian sort of argument. 0:07:16.093 --> 0:07:18.493 That was going to be my next point. So let 0:07:18.613 --> 0:07:25.653 me move on then to teaching literacy. Yes, well, teaching 0:07:25.733 --> 0:07:31.413 teaching literacy the way that they adopted some time back, Yes, 0:07:31.493 --> 0:07:32.453 in this country. 0:07:32.173 --> 0:07:36.013 Yes, that's a very interesting story, and I wondered for 0:07:36.053 --> 0:07:39.813 a long time what the basis of the so called 0:07:39.853 --> 0:07:43.373 whole language approach was and where it went wrong. So 0:07:43.813 --> 0:07:46.733 just for listeners to be clear that the whole language 0:07:46.773 --> 0:07:53.613 method involves exposing children to books and enabling them or 0:07:53.693 --> 0:07:57.533 encouraging them to use what they call multiple cues to 0:07:57.573 --> 0:08:00.093 get the meaning of a word. So it might be, 0:08:00.533 --> 0:08:02.733 you know, the shape of the word itself, it might 0:08:02.773 --> 0:08:04.973 be some illustrations on the page, it might be the 0:08:04.973 --> 0:08:08.253 context of the sentence. And the trouble with that is 0:08:08.413 --> 0:08:11.413 that it disperses attension across all of these different cues 0:08:11.453 --> 0:08:14.173 instead of focusing it on the one that gives them 0:08:14.453 --> 0:08:16.773 the most information, which is the spelling of the word 0:08:17.013 --> 0:08:19.453 and the correspondence between that spelling and the sound of 0:08:19.493 --> 0:08:24.733 the word. And it also ignores the very great cognitive 0:08:24.813 --> 0:08:28.133 load that is imposed when a child is first learning 0:08:28.173 --> 0:08:30.773 to read. It is a very difficult task. And so 0:08:31.053 --> 0:08:35.053 just focusing them on the most important information is what 0:08:35.133 --> 0:08:38.333 builds fluency the quickest, and there's a huge amount of 0:08:38.493 --> 0:08:40.973 evidence for that. But to turn to the question of 0:08:41.013 --> 0:08:44.853 why the whole language method got going in the first place, 0:08:45.213 --> 0:08:48.653 it comes back to a confusion about the difference between 0:08:49.413 --> 0:08:55.333 oral language or spoken language, and literacy. So oral language 0:08:55.773 --> 0:09:00.773 is a human universal. All cultures have oral language, and interestingly, 0:09:00.973 --> 0:09:04.373 it seems to be a biological function in the sense that, well, 0:09:04.413 --> 0:09:07.773 anybody who has brought up a child themselves or been 0:09:07.773 --> 0:09:11.813 around very young children is amazed by the fact that 0:09:12.133 --> 0:09:16.493 a child acquires language in their second and third years 0:09:16.493 --> 0:09:20.253 of life at an incredible rate without anybody explicitly teaching 0:09:20.253 --> 0:09:23.293 them anything. And so there seems to be some sort 0:09:23.333 --> 0:09:26.933 of attemplate in the human brain that enables us to 0:09:26.973 --> 0:09:30.653 acquire language in that way. But literacy is not like that. 0:09:31.173 --> 0:09:35.413 Literacy is not a cultural universal. It's about three and 0:09:35.413 --> 0:09:38.733 a half thousand years old at most, and until about 0:09:38.733 --> 0:09:42.453 two hundred years ago, very few people were literate, and 0:09:42.933 --> 0:09:46.973 so literacy is actually better described as a technology rather 0:09:46.973 --> 0:09:51.573 than a biological function. And it's a big cognitive task 0:09:51.653 --> 0:09:55.533 to read and write, and so we need to take 0:09:55.533 --> 0:09:59.493 a structured, measured approach to how we teach it, and 0:09:59.533 --> 0:10:03.013 we do have very good scientific evidence now on how 0:10:03.013 --> 0:10:06.413 to do that, which is by focusing on the correspondence 0:10:06.413 --> 0:10:07.493 between spelling and sound. 0:10:07.773 --> 0:10:10.133 At first, well, let me go back to what I 0:10:10.173 --> 0:10:12.893 was really going to start with, but as usual I didn't. 0:10:13.213 --> 0:10:17.453 What is there about the New Zealand education system that's good. 0:10:18.853 --> 0:10:20.693 Jee, That's a tough one. 0:10:21.293 --> 0:10:23.773 At the moment, we've got quite the malaise in our 0:10:23.893 --> 0:10:29.813 education system. Our teachers are not well trained by universities 0:10:30.333 --> 0:10:36.053 and I liken it to some extent of committing untrained 0:10:36.053 --> 0:10:39.733 soldiers to a war zone. And that sounds dramatic that 0:10:39.973 --> 0:10:42.413 consider that we have something like a third of our 0:10:42.453 --> 0:10:46.053 teachers dropping out of the profession within their first few 0:10:46.133 --> 0:10:50.573 years of practice. And the roots of that is that 0:10:51.053 --> 0:10:57.133 the university programs for training teachers don't focus on classroom 0:10:57.173 --> 0:11:01.573 management nearly enough, and so our teachers start in the 0:11:01.573 --> 0:11:06.093 classroom not knowing how to establish order in those classrooms. Well, 0:11:06.093 --> 0:11:10.173 if you've got classrooms that are not well ordered, you've 0:11:10.173 --> 0:11:15.293 got no chance of teaching effectively. So that's the very 0:11:15.293 --> 0:11:21.293 foundations which are missing. Until now, we've had a curriculum 0:11:21.733 --> 0:11:24.853 that is very loose and doesn't specify very much at 0:11:24.893 --> 0:11:27.173 all in terms of what should be taught in our schools. 0:11:27.413 --> 0:11:32.653 That's changing with Minister Stanford's reforms and as of next 0:11:32.733 --> 0:11:36.413 year there will be new curricula for English and mathematics 0:11:37.893 --> 0:11:41.093 in our primary schools. That will be followed by more 0:11:41.133 --> 0:11:44.853 curriculum development over the next couple of years until we 0:11:45.013 --> 0:11:48.293 do have a knowledge rich curriculum. So I would say 0:11:48.293 --> 0:11:51.693 that's a good direction that we're going in to look 0:11:51.733 --> 0:11:56.093 for something nice to say about our education system. But 0:11:56.213 --> 0:11:58.093 you know, the other thing that we need to talk 0:11:58.093 --> 0:12:01.773 about is how our schools are organized. At the moment, 0:12:02.653 --> 0:12:06.493 they're all independent crown agencies and there isn't nearly enough 0:12:06.533 --> 0:12:12.653 cooperation between schools, and that drives I would say, increasing 0:12:13.213 --> 0:12:18.093 educational inequality over time. Because schools that are well provisioned 0:12:18.653 --> 0:12:23.173 with I would say parental resources in communities where their 0:12:23.213 --> 0:12:26.773 boards can bring on board lawyers and accountants and so on. 0:12:27.973 --> 0:12:31.373 Those schools that buy and large well governed and functional 0:12:31.533 --> 0:12:35.013 a lot better than schools that lack those resources. So 0:12:35.333 --> 0:12:37.853 I think we need to find a way to bring 0:12:37.893 --> 0:12:44.293 schools together into more functional communities of schools where those 0:12:44.373 --> 0:12:51.213 who are operating in better off communities can really share 0:12:51.213 --> 0:12:53.413 their resources a bit more with those who are not, 0:12:53.653 --> 0:12:58.333 and try to really get to grips with educational inequality, 0:12:58.413 --> 0:13:02.813 because not only do we have falling standards in things 0:13:02.893 --> 0:13:07.133 like literacy and numeracy, and that's been well discussed in 0:13:07.173 --> 0:13:10.573 the media. Also have some of the largest gaps in 0:13:10.613 --> 0:13:13.653 the world between the young people who do the best 0:13:13.733 --> 0:13:16.213 and those who are really being left behind, and that 0:13:16.613 --> 0:13:18.173 gradient is socioeconomic. 0:13:18.733 --> 0:13:22.013 Do you think there is a difference, a racial difference 0:13:22.093 --> 0:13:27.733 in the ability to learn and succeed. No, it's a 0:13:27.773 --> 0:13:29.053 trick It's not a trick question. 0:13:29.493 --> 0:13:29.613 No. 0:13:29.733 --> 0:13:32.493 I think there's no evidence for that at all. And 0:13:32.533 --> 0:13:37.053 I think that our focus on ethnicity, on you know, 0:13:37.613 --> 0:13:41.533 especially Mari kids not doing as well as non Mari 0:13:41.733 --> 0:13:45.373 kids and specifica kids not doing as well as others, 0:13:46.013 --> 0:13:48.173 is a misguided way to talk about it. 0:13:48.333 --> 0:13:49.773 By and large. 0:13:50.493 --> 0:13:55.853 Actually, the problem, as I said, is socioeconomic. If off 0:13:56.053 --> 0:14:00.973 come from a well off family, regardless of the ethnicity 0:14:00.773 --> 0:14:04.933 of your parents, they're going to have an educational background. 0:14:05.013 --> 0:14:09.053 Very often that enables them to support your education. They're 0:14:09.173 --> 0:14:11.533 likely to have well they by definition they have more 0:14:11.573 --> 0:14:18.013 economic resources to if necessary, higher tutors and help in 0:14:18.053 --> 0:14:21.933 other ways like that, you just have more economic and 0:14:21.973 --> 0:14:27.413 cultural capital backing you. And when the education system itself 0:14:27.493 --> 0:14:31.413 is not well structured, it means that those who are 0:14:31.453 --> 0:14:33.693 not who don't have the benefit of those kinds of 0:14:33.773 --> 0:14:37.013 resources get left more and more behind if the system 0:14:37.013 --> 0:14:40.973 itself is not doing its job well enough. So no, 0:14:41.173 --> 0:14:43.373 I don't think that there's any evidence for it being 0:14:43.373 --> 0:14:46.173 a racial or ethnic issue at bottom. 0:14:47.613 --> 0:14:48.813 The only cab out. 0:14:48.653 --> 0:14:50.293 On that that I would add, and I don't think 0:14:50.293 --> 0:14:53.013 this has got anything to do with race as such. 0:14:53.093 --> 0:14:56.093 It has more to do with culture is that our 0:14:56.173 --> 0:15:00.453 schools do need to meet children where they are. So 0:15:01.333 --> 0:15:05.413 I'm all in favor of schools taking account of the 0:15:05.413 --> 0:15:09.053 communities they serve and setting themselves up to serve those 0:15:09.053 --> 0:15:12.693 communities well. And if it's a community that has lots 0:15:12.693 --> 0:15:17.133 and lots of Mary kids, then representing Mary culture in 0:15:17.173 --> 0:15:19.413 the school is a good idea because it makes it 0:15:19.453 --> 0:15:22.573 a more welcoming place to them. 0:15:22.853 --> 0:15:26.773 I'd query that, and I have for a while. Let 0:15:26.773 --> 0:15:29.733 me go back though to the mid eighties, and I'm 0:15:29.733 --> 0:15:34.733 not looking for any honors, but I was interviewing it. 0:15:34.973 --> 0:15:40.533 I was interviewing a woman. She lived in Ponsonby, and 0:15:40.573 --> 0:15:45.613 she was renowned for her work with kids and schooling, 0:15:47.053 --> 0:15:50.653 and she didn't hold any positions. She was married, and 0:15:51.853 --> 0:15:55.013 she was very concerned about the way that things were hitting. 0:15:56.253 --> 0:15:58.573 And even though I can't remember her name. She was 0:15:58.573 --> 0:16:02.293 one of the most impressive people I've I've met to 0:16:02.333 --> 0:16:04.613 that point of my life. And I said to her, 0:16:05.133 --> 0:16:11.333 I would like to anonymously establish a scholarship for a 0:16:11.373 --> 0:16:18.093 married child. And she exploded, not angrily. She said, another 0:16:18.213 --> 0:16:23.373 scholarship or something along those lines is something we don't need, 0:16:24.093 --> 0:16:28.173 because that's not the problem. The problem was the background, etc. 0:16:28.813 --> 0:16:31.493 But my comment to her had led into this was 0:16:31.533 --> 0:16:36.133 that I don't believe that Mary or marry kids are 0:16:36.133 --> 0:16:38.773 any less intelligent than any others. I think all races 0:16:38.973 --> 0:16:44.693 are pretty much pretty much equal, even when it comes 0:16:44.733 --> 0:16:48.133 to when it comes to such things. And realizing at 0:16:48.173 --> 0:16:51.493 the same time that that I was stomping on Thomas Sole, 0:16:51.613 --> 0:16:54.373 who has written a couple of very good books like 0:16:54.493 --> 0:16:59.533 Race and Culture, and pointed out that there are differences 0:16:59.573 --> 0:17:06.653 in the talents of various countries, like Italians who go 0:17:06.733 --> 0:17:11.133 to South America and carry on with the specialty areas 0:17:11.173 --> 0:17:14.333 that they're renowned in. It was just one that's one 0:17:14.373 --> 0:17:17.733 that springs to mind. So they conquer that particular share 0:17:17.773 --> 0:17:20.573 of the market and they do very and they do 0:17:20.773 --> 0:17:24.013 very well, but it's not it's not or it wasn't 0:17:24.053 --> 0:17:28.093 for me. An IQ thing. It was just the cultural background, 0:17:28.333 --> 0:17:28.733 right or right? 0:17:28.773 --> 0:17:30.973 I agree, I think I think different cultures do have 0:17:31.013 --> 0:17:37.973 different orientations and things that they prepare young people for. 0:17:38.293 --> 0:17:42.293 And just to complete what I'm saying here, While I 0:17:42.293 --> 0:17:46.333 think it is entirely appropriate for schools to respond to 0:17:46.413 --> 0:17:51.493 the children that they have and take into account their 0:17:51.493 --> 0:17:55.413 cultural backgrounds, that doesn't mean that their mission, their ultimate mission, 0:17:55.493 --> 0:17:59.093 is any different. Their ultimate mission is to teach the 0:17:59.213 --> 0:18:05.533 universal disciplines or subjects derived from the universal disciplines, in 0:18:05.613 --> 0:18:08.733 order to set children up well with powerful knowledge. And 0:18:08.773 --> 0:18:12.813 by the universal disciplines, I mean things like mathematics, science, 0:18:13.333 --> 0:18:15.733 exposing them to the great literature of the world from 0:18:15.773 --> 0:18:20.773 all different cultures. These kinds of things are what builds 0:18:20.813 --> 0:18:24.853 the platform for young people to have successful lives, and 0:18:24.893 --> 0:18:28.973 so wherever they're coming from and whatever their backgrounds, that 0:18:29.053 --> 0:18:33.493 should be the aim. Now, there are different challenges associated 0:18:33.613 --> 0:18:39.333 with different children. You know, some children do come to 0:18:39.613 --> 0:18:42.853 school with particular learning needs and difficulties, and we need 0:18:42.893 --> 0:18:43.733 to address those. 0:18:44.253 --> 0:18:46.133 The children don't have the same. 0:18:47.453 --> 0:18:51.413 Cultural capital in their home background as others do, and 0:18:51.573 --> 0:18:54.653 that presents a particular challenge. But all of these things 0:18:54.693 --> 0:18:56.853 point in the same direction, which is that we need 0:18:56.893 --> 0:19:01.413 to use the methods of teaching that science tells us 0:19:01.613 --> 0:19:04.573 are the most effective, and that's the best way to 0:19:04.653 --> 0:19:08.813 address these differences, and to have education in being an 0:19:08.813 --> 0:19:16.133 equalizing force in our society rather than just reproducing the 0:19:16.173 --> 0:19:18.213 conditions that people start in. 0:19:19.693 --> 0:19:22.253 Let me approach that a different way, because I didn't 0:19:22.613 --> 0:19:26.893 quite agree with something you said at the beginning. When 0:19:26.933 --> 0:19:31.013 I came to this country decades ago, all the talk 0:19:31.213 --> 0:19:33.773 was well not all the talk, but much of the 0:19:33.813 --> 0:19:36.893 talk was with reard to marry and marry issues. 0:19:37.573 --> 0:19:37.853 Yep. 0:19:38.493 --> 0:19:41.613 In the time that I've been here forty years, it 0:19:41.613 --> 0:19:44.853 hasn't changed. It hasn't gone away, it hasn't been resolved. 0:19:45.133 --> 0:19:47.973 It's still the same mold, same mold as we witnessed 0:19:47.973 --> 0:19:52.493 in Parliament to an aggressive extent just last week. Now, 0:19:52.493 --> 0:19:57.093 if you're going to say that there are, if this 0:19:57.173 --> 0:20:00.413 is a marry dominated school, then making it feel welcome 0:20:00.493 --> 0:20:04.893 with culture, et cetera is appropriate. I can't disagree to 0:20:05.013 --> 0:20:09.653 a limited extent, but I not in danger of and 0:20:09.693 --> 0:20:12.293 are we not doing it locking them in to the 0:20:12.333 --> 0:20:17.053 past and to culture and into a culture that well 0:20:17.573 --> 0:20:19.213 prevents them from breaking free. 0:20:19.573 --> 0:20:21.933 Well not if we follow what I just said, which 0:20:21.973 --> 0:20:27.373 is that while that's the you can have that as 0:20:27.373 --> 0:20:31.013 a way to make them feel welcome and also to reflect, 0:20:32.133 --> 0:20:36.293 you know, what they're used to perhaps in their background. 0:20:36.333 --> 0:20:40.093 And in fact, I would say that we have an 0:20:40.173 --> 0:20:47.493 obligation to enable all people, regardless of their cultural background, 0:20:47.493 --> 0:20:50.493 to see themselves in the school system, because we can't 0:20:50.573 --> 0:20:53.093 shy away from the fact that school can be an 0:20:53.133 --> 0:20:58.813 intimidating institution. So that's the entry point. What we're aiming 0:20:58.893 --> 0:21:02.213 for is to have I mean, the ideal is that 0:21:02.333 --> 0:21:06.533 all young people, regardless of their background, leave school well 0:21:06.693 --> 0:21:13.933 educated in the objects derived from universal disciplines like science, mathematics, history, etc. 0:21:14.613 --> 0:21:19.533 Because that is what gives them the knowledge and based 0:21:19.573 --> 0:21:24.213 on that knowledge, the ability to think through ideas in 0:21:24.293 --> 0:21:29.013 a really coherent, disciplined way, and that's what sets them 0:21:29.093 --> 0:21:34.453 up for success in life. Now, in the senior years 0:21:34.493 --> 0:21:36.813 of school, I think we do need to think harder 0:21:36.853 --> 0:21:41.133 about the pathways that young people follow. Frankly, I think 0:21:41.133 --> 0:21:46.533 we send far too many young people from university to university, 0:21:46.933 --> 0:21:50.613 and we don't send nearly enough into apprenticeships and trades, 0:21:51.333 --> 0:21:56.213 and that's because we have this misguided view that a 0:21:56.373 --> 0:22:02.053 university education is somehow inherently superior to being an electrician 0:22:02.453 --> 0:22:07.173 or a plumber or a trades person. So I think 0:22:07.213 --> 0:22:09.413 that's a cultural issue we need to face up to 0:22:09.453 --> 0:22:11.693 and do something about. And I have some ideas about 0:22:11.733 --> 0:22:17.973 that too. But up until the senior secondary, all young 0:22:18.013 --> 0:22:21.213 people should be taught to read and write and do 0:22:21.333 --> 0:22:25.773 mathematics and learn about science and history and so on, 0:22:26.453 --> 0:22:29.693 and that should be a universal offering. 0:22:30.933 --> 0:22:33.693 So I've got I've got one more point to make. 0:22:34.453 --> 0:22:39.293 If you follow in school the approach that you just nominated, 0:22:40.773 --> 0:22:44.973 how does that then relate to the situation. The prime 0:22:45.053 --> 0:22:49.733 example I'll utilize, and obviously so is the bonfight at 0:22:49.733 --> 0:22:53.053 Auckland University a couple of years back, which still continues. 0:22:53.093 --> 0:22:57.933 I gather you're talking about the listener letter business. Well, well, 0:22:57.973 --> 0:23:03.333 I mean that was an appalling betrayal of the academics 0:23:03.533 --> 0:23:07.773 who wrote that piece, none of them, of course, wire racists, 0:23:07.813 --> 0:23:12.333 despite being accused of that by many, And they were 0:23:12.373 --> 0:23:15.333 thrown under the bus by their own vice chancellor who 0:23:15.373 --> 0:23:19.813 said that their letter had caused hurt, in dismay and 0:23:20.173 --> 0:23:23.013 all of this. What they were pointing out, of course, 0:23:23.493 --> 0:23:27.413 is simply that there are different knowledge systems in the world. 0:23:28.013 --> 0:23:34.533 Science is a particular one with unique characteristics, and if 0:23:34.533 --> 0:23:36.613 we're going to teach science, then it needs to be 0:23:36.773 --> 0:23:40.613 taught in terms of what it is, rather than trying 0:23:40.653 --> 0:23:46.413 to bring in knowledge systems like muttering amati that might 0:23:46.453 --> 0:23:48.813 have their own contribution to make, but which are not 0:23:49.093 --> 0:23:53.973 themselves science. So that was all they were saying in 0:23:54.013 --> 0:23:54.573 this letter. 0:23:55.253 --> 0:23:56.893 Now, if I'd been. 0:23:59.893 --> 0:24:02.493 Wanting to say those things myself, I probably wouldn't have 0:24:02.493 --> 0:24:04.093 tried to do it in a letter to the listener. 0:24:04.373 --> 0:24:08.253 I don't think that that affords enough scope to do 0:24:08.493 --> 0:24:12.333 issue justice, because you really need to explain what science 0:24:12.453 --> 0:24:16.333 is because very few people people actually understand that it's 0:24:16.373 --> 0:24:19.653 not just any old system of finding out about the 0:24:19.733 --> 0:24:25.133 natural world. It's been refined over literally millennia. I mean, 0:24:25.133 --> 0:24:29.973 we could go back to ancient philosophers like Aristotle to 0:24:30.013 --> 0:24:34.093 start to see the first terms of scientific thinking back 0:24:34.093 --> 0:24:37.813 in the ancient Greek world. But it developed over many, 0:24:37.893 --> 0:24:41.973 many centuries. It brought in knowledge from the Middle East 0:24:42.093 --> 0:24:47.733 and India and many different cultures, and it's really not 0:24:47.853 --> 0:24:53.973 until the twentieth century that it really formed into what 0:24:54.133 --> 0:24:57.773 it is now, which is the most powerful system we 0:24:57.893 --> 0:25:02.373 know for testing theories about the world. And the reason 0:25:02.413 --> 0:25:07.853 it's so powerful is because it has at its core 0:25:08.493 --> 0:25:11.413 the idea that, first of all, there is an objective 0:25:11.533 --> 0:25:15.093 reality the way things are, but we always will have 0:25:15.173 --> 0:25:18.453 imperfect access to that, and so all we can do 0:25:18.573 --> 0:25:21.373 is build theories and try to knock them down with evidence. 0:25:21.893 --> 0:25:25.133 And it's the trying to knock them down part what 0:25:25.413 --> 0:25:31.653 Carl Popper called falsification that makes a scientific theory scientific, 0:25:32.813 --> 0:25:36.973 and that is a unique approach to the testing of 0:25:37.053 --> 0:25:41.853 theories with evidence, and it's built the prosperity that we 0:25:42.013 --> 0:25:46.813 have in the world now, has given us the technologies 0:25:46.933 --> 0:25:48.773 we have. I think it's also got a lot to 0:25:48.773 --> 0:25:52.253 do with democracy. I don't think it's any accident that 0:25:52.373 --> 0:25:57.093 Carl Popper, the greatest philosopher of science in history, in 0:25:57.133 --> 0:26:01.373 my opinion, was also a philosopher of democracy and open society, 0:26:02.133 --> 0:26:03.693 because there's a lot in common. 0:26:04.693 --> 0:26:06.133 And at the core. 0:26:06.093 --> 0:26:11.093 It's the ability to discuss ideas, to argue about ideas 0:26:11.813 --> 0:26:15.973 backed by evidence in a civil way without wanting to 0:26:16.053 --> 0:26:20.053 kill your opponent and instead seeing a disagreement is a 0:26:20.133 --> 0:26:22.933 chance to improve everybody's ideas just. 0:26:23.253 --> 0:26:28.173 For the sake of everybody. When you say an open society, 0:26:28.253 --> 0:26:31.133 and Papa believe in an open society. What sort of 0:26:31.173 --> 0:26:32.853 open society? Can you give us a definition? 0:26:34.893 --> 0:26:39.653 Well, open society would liberal democracies are open societies. That 0:26:40.253 --> 0:26:43.533 is to say, we have a quality of political rights, 0:26:44.733 --> 0:26:49.773 We have free speech, we have the idea of free elections, 0:26:49.813 --> 0:26:52.973 which are a way of ensuring that everybody has a 0:26:53.053 --> 0:26:55.293 say and who governs them. In other words, we have 0:26:55.373 --> 0:26:59.453 government by consent and not just some feudal overlord telling 0:26:59.533 --> 0:27:05.413 us what to do or some tyrant but ultimately it's 0:27:05.493 --> 0:27:10.573