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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks It be

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Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 2: the information, all the debates.

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Speaker 1: Off now the Layton Smith podcast powered by news Talks It.

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Speaker 3: Be Welcome to podcasts number two hundred and sixty six

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Speaker 3: for November twenty, twenty twenty four. Now I know I

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Speaker 3: spend a lot of time on matters relating to education.

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Speaker 3: It is because of the importance of schooling, and not

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Speaker 3: just schooling, but universities and other forms of education in

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Speaker 3: the interests of the individual and the country. It's much

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Speaker 3: the same story over most of the world, but especially

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Speaker 3: in Anglo speaking countries, the headwinds that have battered many

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Speaker 3: lives and destroyed reputations. By that, I means schools and

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Speaker 3: universities have been difficult to counter. The interview with doctor

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Speaker 3: Michael Johnson is I think quite revealing and should be

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Speaker 3: heard by a wide range of people. Please do not

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Speaker 3: hesitate to send it to anyone you think come is relevant.

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Speaker 3: And by that I mean parents, grandparents, teachers, kids, And

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Speaker 3: it was hearing the intent of Donald Trump to eliminate

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Speaker 3: the Department of Education in the United States that inspired

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Speaker 3: by contacting Michael to invite him on, and he was

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Speaker 3: only too happy to He has plenty to say. At

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Speaker 3: the back end of two double six, we make reference

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Speaker 3: to other matters that are of interest to most of you,

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Speaker 3: that are of interest to most of you, the WHO,

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Speaker 3: the World Health Organization, the trashing of Parliament being amongst them,

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Speaker 3: an artificial intelligence, and democracy also. But next Michael Johnson.

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Speaker 3: Education has been a battleground for as long as I

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Speaker 3: can remember, a war zone between specifically left and right,

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Speaker 3: socialism and freedom. Michael Johnson has had a lengthy career

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Speaker 3: in education at all levels. He was when I became

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Speaker 3: aware of him, he was at Victoria University. He is now.

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Speaker 3: He leads the education work at the New Zealand Initiative,

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Speaker 3: which is doing good things in spite of what you

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Speaker 3: might read about it occasionally in well in the commentary

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Speaker 3: from some of some of the media. Michael Johnson, we've

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Speaker 3: had you on the podcast before, of course, you know,

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Speaker 3: stranger to people on this particular platform, and I have

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Speaker 3: to say it's always good to.

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Speaker 2: Talk with you, and you it's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: Now, would you disagree with anything I've said so far

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Speaker 3: about education being a battleground.

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Speaker 4: I think it is a battleground. To describe it as

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Speaker 4: a battle between left and right to me kind of odd.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it non pluses me to an extent that

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Speaker 4: it is such a political battleground. And the reason I

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Speaker 4: say that is, actually we have quite a wealth of

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Speaker 4: evidence on what effective teaching looks like and how to

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Speaker 4: teach children to read, for example, and how to teach

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Speaker 4: them in general along the lines of understanding human information processing,

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Speaker 4: human memory, human attention, this kind of thing, and also

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Speaker 4: the necessity for children not to be stressed in order

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Speaker 4: to learn best. There's all kinds of things that we know,

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Speaker 4: and so why it needs to be a political battle

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Speaker 4: is a little strange. And certainly why there is a

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Speaker 4: conflict between left and right if indeed the distinction left

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Speaker 4: and right really makes sense in the modern political context.

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Speaker 4: So I think that's the only thing that I would

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Speaker 4: question about your introduction, is what we mean by left

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Speaker 4: and right and why things have turned out the way

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Speaker 4: they have. I guess part of it is patch protection

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Speaker 4: on the part of the unions. They tend to oppose

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Speaker 4: things like charter schools. They oppose things like structuring teachers

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Speaker 4: careers so that they get paids according to the quality

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Speaker 4: of their practice rather than how long that been teachers,

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Speaker 4: which is the current scenario. So there are certainly some

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Speaker 4: specific things that the unions influence labor governments over which

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Speaker 4: makes reform more difficult, But I think the fundamental ground

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Speaker 4: of the battle is deeper than that. Arguably it goes

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Speaker 4: back as far as philosophers like junjak Russo, who saw

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Speaker 4: children as coming into the world more or less perfectly formed,

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Speaker 4: and we messed them up when we've put them in

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Speaker 4: formal education systems versus I guess a more pragmatic view

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Speaker 4: of human beings, which is that there's there's a great

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Speaker 4: deal of knowledge and disciplinary ideas that have to be

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Speaker 4: inculcated in children and young people in order to make

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Speaker 4: them effective citizens. So there is that disagreement about learning itself.

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Speaker 4: But really pragmatically, I think that we actually have good

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Speaker 4: evidence on how education systems best function.

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Speaker 3: And okay, let me let me ask you. Let me

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Speaker 3: ask you a question. Would you would you feel more

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Speaker 3: comfortable with progressives versus conservatives?

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Speaker 4: Well, it depends what you mean in their educational context.

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Speaker 3: Levy. Let me let me take it a step further

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Speaker 3: than you say that we know the best way to

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Speaker 3: do things.

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Speaker 2: We have very good scientific, scientific evidence.

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Speaker 3: So so open classrooms. Where does that fall in that scenario.

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Speaker 4: Well, open classrooms have no evidence space for them at all,

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Speaker 4: and that turned out to be quite a catastrophe, and

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Speaker 4: many schools are now trying to reverse the situation building

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Speaker 4: walls to recreate cellular classrooms. Now, that whole thing was

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Speaker 4: bizarre because it entailed spending a huge amount of money

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Speaker 4: with no evidence space, against the will of many schools.

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Speaker 3: But doesn't that forward of the category of progressivism.

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Speaker 2: Arguably it does.

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Speaker 4: The rationale that was used by the ministry for forcing

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Speaker 4: schools to build these environments was a progressivist agenda. I

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Speaker 4: think that's true. It was about, you know, child centered,

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Speaker 4: child led education, and the idea that if we created

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Speaker 4: these big barns and allowed children to roam around in them,

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Speaker 4: that they would, you know, acquire the knowledge they need.

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Speaker 4: And that is a very Roussouian sort of argument.

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Speaker 3: That was going to be my next point. So let

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Speaker 3: me move on then to teaching literacy. Yes, well, teaching

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Speaker 3: teaching literacy the way that they adopted some time back, Yes,

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Speaker 3: in this country.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's a very interesting story, and I wondered for

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Speaker 4: a long time what the basis of the so called

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Speaker 4: whole language approach was and where it went wrong. So

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Speaker 4: just for listeners to be clear that the whole language

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Speaker 4: method involves exposing children to books and enabling them or

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Speaker 4: encouraging them to use what they call multiple cues to

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Speaker 4: get the meaning of a word. So it might be,

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Speaker 4: you know, the shape of the word itself, it might

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Speaker 4: be some illustrations on the page, it might be the

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Speaker 4: context of the sentence. And the trouble with that is

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Speaker 4: that it disperses attension across all of these different cues

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Speaker 4: instead of focusing it on the one that gives them

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Speaker 4: the most information, which is the spelling of the word

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Speaker 4: and the correspondence between that spelling and the sound of

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Speaker 4: the word. And it also ignores the very great cognitive

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Speaker 4: load that is imposed when a child is first learning

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Speaker 4: to read. It is a very difficult task. And so

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Speaker 4: just focusing them on the most important information is what

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Speaker 4: builds fluency the quickest, and there's a huge amount of

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Speaker 4: evidence for that. But to turn to the question of

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Speaker 4: why the whole language method got going in the first place,

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Speaker 4: it comes back to a confusion about the difference between

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Speaker 4: oral language or spoken language, and literacy. So oral language

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Speaker 4: is a human universal. All cultures have oral language, and interestingly,

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Speaker 4: it seems to be a biological function in the sense that, well,

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Speaker 4: anybody who has brought up a child themselves or been

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Speaker 4: around very young children is amazed by the fact that

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Speaker 4: a child acquires language in their second and third years

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Speaker 4: of life at an incredible rate without anybody explicitly teaching

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Speaker 4: them anything. And so there seems to be some sort

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Speaker 4: of attemplate in the human brain that enables us to

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Speaker 4: acquire language in that way. But literacy is not like that.

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Speaker 4: Literacy is not a cultural universal. It's about three and

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Speaker 4: a half thousand years old at most, and until about

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Speaker 4: two hundred years ago, very few people were literate, and

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Speaker 4: so literacy is actually better described as a technology rather

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Speaker 4: than a biological function. And it's a big cognitive task

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Speaker 4: to read and write, and so we need to take

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Speaker 4: a structured, measured approach to how we teach it, and

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Speaker 4: we do have very good scientific evidence now on how

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Speaker 4: to do that, which is by focusing on the correspondence

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Speaker 4: between spelling and sound.

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Speaker 3: At first, well, let me go back to what I

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Speaker 3: was really going to start with, but as usual I didn't.

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Speaker 3: What is there about the New Zealand education system that's good.

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Speaker 2: Jee, That's a tough one.

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Speaker 4: At the moment, we've got quite the malaise in our

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Speaker 4: education system. Our teachers are not well trained by universities

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Speaker 4: and I liken it to some extent of committing untrained

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Speaker 4: soldiers to a war zone. And that sounds dramatic that

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Speaker 4: consider that we have something like a third of our

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Speaker 4: teachers dropping out of the profession within their first few

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Speaker 4: years of practice. And the roots of that is that

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Speaker 4: the university programs for training teachers don't focus on classroom

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Speaker 4: management nearly enough, and so our teachers start in the

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Speaker 4: classroom not knowing how to establish order in those classrooms. Well,

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Speaker 4: if you've got classrooms that are not well ordered, you've

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Speaker 4: got no chance of teaching effectively. So that's the very

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Speaker 4: foundations which are missing. Until now, we've had a curriculum

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Speaker 4: that is very loose and doesn't specify very much at

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Speaker 4: all in terms of what should be taught in our schools.

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Speaker 4: That's changing with Minister Stanford's reforms and as of next

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Speaker 4: year there will be new curricula for English and mathematics

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Speaker 4: in our primary schools. That will be followed by more

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Speaker 4: curriculum development over the next couple of years until we

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Speaker 4: do have a knowledge rich curriculum. So I would say

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Speaker 4: that's a good direction that we're going in to look

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Speaker 4: for something nice to say about our education system. But

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Speaker 4: you know, the other thing that we need to talk

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Speaker 4: about is how our schools are organized. At the moment,

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Speaker 4: they're all independent crown agencies and there isn't nearly enough

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Speaker 4: cooperation between schools, and that drives I would say, increasing

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Speaker 4: educational inequality over time. Because schools that are well provisioned

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Speaker 4: with I would say parental resources in communities where their

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Speaker 4: boards can bring on board lawyers and accountants and so on.

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Speaker 4: Those schools that buy and large well governed and functional

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Speaker 4: a lot better than schools that lack those resources. So

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Speaker 4: I think we need to find a way to bring

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Speaker 4: schools together into more functional communities of schools where those

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Speaker 4: who are operating in better off communities can really share

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Speaker 4: their resources a bit more with those who are not,

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Speaker 4: and try to really get to grips with educational inequality,

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Speaker 4: because not only do we have falling standards in things

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Speaker 4: like literacy and numeracy, and that's been well discussed in

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Speaker 4: the media. Also have some of the largest gaps in

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Speaker 4: the world between the young people who do the best

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Speaker 4: and those who are really being left behind, and that

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Speaker 4: gradient is socioeconomic.

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Speaker 3: Do you think there is a difference, a racial difference

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Speaker 3: in the ability to learn and succeed. No, it's a

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Speaker 3: trick It's not a trick question.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: I think there's no evidence for that at all. And

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Speaker 4: I think that our focus on ethnicity, on you know,

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Speaker 4: especially Mari kids not doing as well as non Mari

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Speaker 4: kids and specifica kids not doing as well as others,

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Speaker 4: is a misguided way to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: By and large.

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Speaker 4: Actually, the problem, as I said, is socioeconomic. If off

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Speaker 4: come from a well off family, regardless of the ethnicity

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Speaker 4: of your parents, they're going to have an educational background.

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Speaker 4: Very often that enables them to support your education. They're

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Speaker 4: likely to have well they by definition they have more

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Speaker 4: economic resources to if necessary, higher tutors and help in

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Speaker 4: other ways like that, you just have more economic and

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Speaker 4: cultural capital backing you. And when the education system itself

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Speaker 4: is not well structured, it means that those who are

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Speaker 4: not who don't have the benefit of those kinds of

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Speaker 4: resources get left more and more behind if the system

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Speaker 4: itself is not doing its job well enough. So no,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that there's any evidence for it being

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Speaker 4: a racial or ethnic issue at bottom.

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Speaker 2: The only cab out.

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Speaker 4: On that that I would add, and I don't think

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Speaker 4: this has got anything to do with race as such.

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Speaker 4: It has more to do with culture is that our

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Speaker 4: schools do need to meet children where they are. So

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Speaker 4: I'm all in favor of schools taking account of the

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Speaker 4: communities they serve and setting themselves up to serve those

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Speaker 4: communities well. And if it's a community that has lots

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Speaker 4: and lots of Mary kids, then representing Mary culture in

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Speaker 4: the school is a good idea because it makes it

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Speaker 4: a more welcoming place to them.

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Speaker 3: I'd query that, and I have for a while. Let

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Speaker 3: me go back though to the mid eighties, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not looking for any honors, but I was interviewing it.

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Speaker 3: I was interviewing a woman. She lived in Ponsonby, and

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Speaker 3: she was renowned for her work with kids and schooling,

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Speaker 3: and she didn't hold any positions. She was married, and

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Speaker 3: she was very concerned about the way that things were hitting.

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Speaker 3: And even though I can't remember her name. She was

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Speaker 3: one of the most impressive people I've I've met to

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Speaker 3: that point of my life. And I said to her,

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Speaker 3: I would like to anonymously establish a scholarship for a

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Speaker 3: married child. And she exploded, not angrily. She said, another

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Speaker 3: scholarship or something along those lines is something we don't need,

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Speaker 3: because that's not the problem. The problem was the background, etc.

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Speaker 3: But my comment to her had led into this was

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Speaker 3: that I don't believe that Mary or marry kids are

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Speaker 3: any less intelligent than any others. I think all races

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Speaker 3: are pretty much pretty much equal, even when it comes

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Speaker 3: to when it comes to such things. And realizing at

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Speaker 3: the same time that that I was stomping on Thomas Sole,

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Speaker 3: who has written a couple of very good books like

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Speaker 3: Race and Culture, and pointed out that there are differences

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Speaker 3: in the talents of various countries, like Italians who go

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Speaker 3: to South America and carry on with the specialty areas

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Speaker 3: that they're renowned in. It was just one that's one

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Speaker 3: that springs to mind. So they conquer that particular share

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Speaker 3: of the market and they do very and they do

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Speaker 3: very well, but it's not it's not or it wasn't

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Speaker 3: for me. An IQ thing. It was just the cultural background,

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Speaker 3: right or right?

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Speaker 4: I agree, I think I think different cultures do have

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Speaker 4: different orientations and things that they prepare young people for.

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Speaker 4: And just to complete what I'm saying here, While I

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Speaker 4: think it is entirely appropriate for schools to respond to

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Speaker 4: the children that they have and take into account their

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Speaker 4: cultural backgrounds, that doesn't mean that their mission, their ultimate mission,

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Speaker 4: is any different. Their ultimate mission is to teach the

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Speaker 4: universal disciplines or subjects derived from the universal disciplines, in

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Speaker 4: order to set children up well with powerful knowledge. And

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Speaker 4: by the universal disciplines, I mean things like mathematics, science,

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Speaker 4: exposing them to the great literature of the world from

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Speaker 4: all different cultures. These kinds of things are what builds

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Speaker 4: the platform for young people to have successful lives, and

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Speaker 4: so wherever they're coming from and whatever their backgrounds, that

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Speaker 4: should be the aim. Now, there are different challenges associated

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Speaker 4: with different children. You know, some children do come to

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Speaker 4: school with particular learning needs and difficulties, and we need

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Speaker 4: to address those.

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Speaker 2: The children don't have the same.

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Speaker 4: Cultural capital in their home background as others do, and

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Speaker 4: that presents a particular challenge. But all of these things

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Speaker 4: point in the same direction, which is that we need

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Speaker 4: to use the methods of teaching that science tells us

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Speaker 4: are the most effective, and that's the best way to

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Speaker 4: address these differences, and to have education in being an

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Speaker 4: equalizing force in our society rather than just reproducing the

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Speaker 4: conditions that people start in.

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Speaker 3: Let me approach that a different way, because I didn't

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Speaker 3: quite agree with something you said at the beginning. When

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Speaker 3: I came to this country decades ago, all the talk

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Speaker 3: was well not all the talk, but much of the

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Speaker 3: talk was with reard to marry and marry issues.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: In the time that I've been here forty years, it

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Speaker 3: hasn't changed. It hasn't gone away, it hasn't been resolved.

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Speaker 3: It's still the same mold, same mold as we witnessed

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Speaker 3: in Parliament to an aggressive extent just last week. Now,

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Speaker 3: if you're going to say that there are, if this

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Speaker 3: is a marry dominated school, then making it feel welcome

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Speaker 3: with culture, et cetera is appropriate. I can't disagree to

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Speaker 3: a limited extent, but I not in danger of and

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Speaker 3: are we not doing it locking them in to the

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Speaker 3: past and to culture and into a culture that well

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Speaker 3: prevents them from breaking free.

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Speaker 4: Well not if we follow what I just said, which

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Speaker 4: is that while that's the you can have that as

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Speaker 4: a way to make them feel welcome and also to reflect,

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Speaker 4: you know, what they're used to perhaps in their background.

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Speaker 4: And in fact, I would say that we have an

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Speaker 4: obligation to enable all people, regardless of their cultural background,

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Speaker 4: to see themselves in the school system, because we can't

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Speaker 4: shy away from the fact that school can be an

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Speaker 4: intimidating institution. So that's the entry point. What we're aiming

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Speaker 4: for is to have I mean, the ideal is that

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Speaker 4: all young people, regardless of their background, leave school well

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Speaker 4: educated in the objects derived from universal disciplines like science, mathematics, history, etc.

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Speaker 4: Because that is what gives them the knowledge and based

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Speaker 4: on that knowledge, the ability to think through ideas in

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Speaker 4: a really coherent, disciplined way, and that's what sets them

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Speaker 4: up for success in life. Now, in the senior years

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Speaker 4: of school, I think we do need to think harder

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Speaker 4: about the pathways that young people follow. Frankly, I think

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Speaker 4: we send far too many young people from university to university,

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Speaker 4: and we don't send nearly enough into apprenticeships and trades,

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Speaker 4: and that's because we have this misguided view that a

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Speaker 4: university education is somehow inherently superior to being an electrician

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Speaker 4: or a plumber or a trades person. So I think

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Speaker 4: that's a cultural issue we need to face up to

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Speaker 4: and do something about. And I have some ideas about

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Speaker 4: that too. But up until the senior secondary, all young

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Speaker 4: people should be taught to read and write and do

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Speaker 4: mathematics and learn about science and history and so on,

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Speaker 4: and that should be a universal offering.

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Speaker 3: So I've got I've got one more point to make.

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Speaker 3: If you follow in school the approach that you just nominated,

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Speaker 3: how does that then relate to the situation. The prime

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Speaker 3: example I'll utilize, and obviously so is the bonfight at

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Speaker 3: Auckland University a couple of years back, which still continues.

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Speaker 4: I gather you're talking about the listener letter business. Well, well,

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Speaker 4: I mean that was an appalling betrayal of the academics

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Speaker 4: who wrote that piece, none of them, of course, wire racists,

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Speaker 4: despite being accused of that by many, And they were

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Speaker 4: thrown under the bus by their own vice chancellor who

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Speaker 4: said that their letter had caused hurt, in dismay and

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Speaker 4: all of this. What they were pointing out, of course,

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Speaker 4: is simply that there are different knowledge systems in the world.

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Speaker 4: Science is a particular one with unique characteristics, and if

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Speaker 4: we're going to teach science, then it needs to be

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Speaker 4: taught in terms of what it is, rather than trying

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Speaker 4: to bring in knowledge systems like muttering amati that might

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Speaker 4: have their own contribution to make, but which are not

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Speaker 4: themselves science. So that was all they were saying in

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Speaker 4: this letter.

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Speaker 2: Now, if I'd been.

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Speaker 4: Wanting to say those things myself, I probably wouldn't have

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Speaker 4: tried to do it in a letter to the listener.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that that affords enough scope to do

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Speaker 4: issue justice, because you really need to explain what science

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Speaker 4: is because very few people people actually understand that it's

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Speaker 4: not just any old system of finding out about the

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Speaker 4: natural world. It's been refined over literally millennia. I mean,

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Speaker 4: we could go back to ancient philosophers like Aristotle to

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Speaker 4: start to see the first terms of scientific thinking back

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Speaker 4: in the ancient Greek world. But it developed over many,

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Speaker 4: many centuries. It brought in knowledge from the Middle East

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Speaker 4: and India and many different cultures, and it's really not

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Speaker 4: until the twentieth century that it really formed into what

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Speaker 4: it is now, which is the most powerful system we

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Speaker 4: know for testing theories about the world. And the reason

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Speaker 4: it's so powerful is because it has at its core

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Speaker 4: the idea that, first of all, there is an objective

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Speaker 4: reality the way things are, but we always will have

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Speaker 4: imperfect access to that, and so all we can do

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Speaker 4: is build theories and try to knock them down with evidence.

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Speaker 4: And it's the trying to knock them down part what

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Speaker 4: Carl Popper called falsification that makes a scientific theory scientific,

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Speaker 4: and that is a unique approach to the testing of

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Speaker 4: theories with evidence, and it's built the prosperity that we

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Speaker 4: have in the world now, has given us the technologies

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Speaker 4: we have. I think it's also got a lot to

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Speaker 4: do with democracy. I don't think it's any accident that

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Speaker 4: Carl Popper, the greatest philosopher of science in history, in

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Speaker 4: my opinion, was also a philosopher of democracy and open society,

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Speaker 4: because there's a lot in common.

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Speaker 2: And at the core.

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Speaker 4: It's the ability to discuss ideas, to argue about ideas

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Speaker 4: backed by evidence in a civil way without wanting to

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Speaker 4: kill your opponent and instead seeing a disagreement is a

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Speaker 4: chance to improve everybody's ideas just.

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Speaker 3: For the sake of everybody. When you say an open society,

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Speaker 3: and Papa believe in an open society. What sort of

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Speaker 3: open society? Can you give us a definition?

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Speaker 4: Well, open society would liberal democracies are open societies. That

395
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Speaker 4: is to say, we have a quality of political rights,

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Speaker 4: We have free speech, we have the idea of free elections,

397
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Speaker 4: which are a way of ensuring that everybody has a

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Speaker 4: say and who governs them. In other words, we have

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Speaker 4: government by consent and not just some feudal overlord telling

400
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Speaker 4: us what to do or some tyrant but ultimately it's

401
00:27:05,493 --> 00:27:10,573
Speaker 4: underpinned by a particular culture, and that culture is one

402
00:27:10,613 --> 00:27:14,413
Speaker 4: in which we're prepared to tolerate difference of opinion and

403
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Speaker 4: to use our free speech to resolve disputes. And so

404
00:27:20,653 --> 00:27:25,053
Speaker 4: you know, a democratic legal system is another pillar of

405
00:27:25,053 --> 00:27:30,093
Speaker 4: an open society, where disputes and criminal matters are resolved

406
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Speaker 4: on the basis of evidence in courts, and we have

407
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Speaker 4: things like juries and so on. That's an open society.

408
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Speaker 4: And it contrasts with tyrannical societies, with their feudal or

409
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Speaker 4: fascist or communist in other words, where all of those

410
00:27:46,413 --> 00:27:49,933
Speaker 4: what all of those have in common is authority figures

411
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Speaker 4: just telling people what to do by dictat and threatening

412
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Speaker 4: them with violence if they don't.

413
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Speaker 3: Indeed, there is a certain billionaire in the United States

414
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Speaker 3: who spends more than anybody else on election buying, So

415
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Speaker 3: I'm talking about George Soros. Spends megabucks and his intent

416
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Speaker 3: is to change America then anywhere else he can to

417
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Speaker 3: his so called open society, which.

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Speaker 4: Is interestingly he was a student associated, yeah with Karl

419
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Speaker 4: Popfer in the past. But I agree with you that

420
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Speaker 4: he's deviated from Popper's ideas fairly dramatically. But look, in

421
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Speaker 4: the end, open societies will always be threatened in various ways.

422
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Speaker 4: They're precarious things and we have to bear that in mind.

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Speaker 4: And I guess to bring the conversation back to education.

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Speaker 4: That is why I think we need young people to

425
00:28:49,173 --> 00:28:52,813
Speaker 4: be educated in the disciplines that give them the ability

426
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Speaker 4: to think critically. Now much is made of critical thinking

427
00:28:56,253 --> 00:28:59,813
Speaker 4: in our current curriculum, but what has missed is the

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Speaker 4: necessity for critical thinking to be built on a base

429
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Speaker 4: of knowledge. Without quite sophisticated knowledge, which critical thinking is

430
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Speaker 4: just not possible. And it's not just the knowledge of

431
00:29:13,773 --> 00:29:16,293
Speaker 4: the facts of the world or the facts are important.

432
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Speaker 4: In addition to factual knowledge, we need knowledge of systems

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Speaker 4: of thinking that enable us to get better representations of

434
00:29:27,733 --> 00:29:32,693
Speaker 4: truth over time. Whether it's in history or science or mathematics,

435
00:29:33,213 --> 00:29:37,733
Speaker 4: these are all disciplines that have methods for weighing evidence

436
00:29:38,173 --> 00:29:44,533
Speaker 4: and for resolving disagreements using that evidence. We never get

437
00:29:44,573 --> 00:29:47,733
Speaker 4: to a perfect understanding of how things are, which is

438
00:29:47,773 --> 00:29:51,293
Speaker 4: why it's always a work in progress. And it's that

439
00:29:51,533 --> 00:29:57,573
Speaker 4: endless contestability, which is the essence of the versal disciplines

440
00:29:58,013 --> 00:29:59,293
Speaker 4: as well as democracy.

441
00:30:00,373 --> 00:30:04,213
Speaker 3: Can I go back to the education and the schools

442
00:30:04,973 --> 00:30:11,773
Speaker 3: at least momentarily. Yes, mentioned that having the schools working

443
00:30:11,773 --> 00:30:17,493
Speaker 3: together in the same region is ideal. My thought is

444
00:30:18,053 --> 00:30:20,813
Speaker 3: usually and it is in this case. I mean, if

445
00:30:21,533 --> 00:30:24,453
Speaker 3: there is a local agreement because people like each other

446
00:30:24,453 --> 00:30:26,493
Speaker 3: and they get on well with the other principle or whatever,

447
00:30:26,573 --> 00:30:30,533
Speaker 3: they can help out sometimes that's fine. But isn't competition

448
00:30:30,733 --> 00:30:34,093
Speaker 3: even between schools worthy of pursuing.

449
00:30:35,613 --> 00:30:38,173
Speaker 4: Yes, it probably is, But I don't think that competition

450
00:30:38,533 --> 00:30:43,533
Speaker 4: and cooperation are mutually exclusive things. And I think we

451
00:30:43,573 --> 00:30:48,493
Speaker 4: do need a mechanism by which we can propagate good

452
00:30:48,573 --> 00:30:54,013
Speaker 4: practice across schools rather than simply having them all set

453
00:30:54,093 --> 00:30:59,493
Speaker 4: up in just pure competition with one another. Because a

454
00:30:59,573 --> 00:31:07,213
Speaker 4: pure competitive model is always going to leave schools in

455
00:31:07,373 --> 00:31:14,373
Speaker 4: less advantage communities not as well off. So I think

456
00:31:14,413 --> 00:31:17,493
Speaker 4: there is a place, So let's think of it like this.

457
00:31:18,293 --> 00:31:21,733
Speaker 4: I think that the education system schools need to be

458
00:31:21,773 --> 00:31:25,853
Speaker 4: accountable to the country for doing a good job, and

459
00:31:25,893 --> 00:31:28,813
Speaker 4: for that they need feedback. That means we need to

460
00:31:28,853 --> 00:31:32,733
Speaker 4: measure how they're doing and for that to be known,

461
00:31:33,533 --> 00:31:38,053
Speaker 4: and that in a sense becomes a mechanism of competition

462
00:31:38,133 --> 00:31:41,373
Speaker 4: because you get to see what is functioning better than

463
00:31:41,973 --> 00:31:47,893
Speaker 4: what else. But I don't think that having schools cooperate

464
00:31:48,533 --> 00:31:51,173
Speaker 4: is actually a barrier to doing that, and I think

465
00:31:51,173 --> 00:31:53,893
Speaker 4: we can set things up and I'm just thinking through

466
00:31:53,973 --> 00:31:56,693
Speaker 4: this now. I'm going to write a report about it

467
00:31:56,693 --> 00:31:59,453
Speaker 4: next year. So the ideas are not yet fully formed.

468
00:31:59,853 --> 00:32:03,213
Speaker 4: But we already have communities of schools. They're called kahuiaco,

469
00:32:03,813 --> 00:32:09,493
Speaker 4: but they're not very well structured or resourced. And I

470
00:32:09,533 --> 00:32:13,213
Speaker 4: think we have this strange situation where we have a

471
00:32:13,293 --> 00:32:18,133
Speaker 4: kind of megalithic ministry of education that just keeps growing

472
00:32:18,173 --> 00:32:21,533
Speaker 4: and growing over time. It's got thousands and thousands of

473
00:32:21,533 --> 00:32:25,373
Speaker 4: public servants working for it. It's also got regional offices,

474
00:32:25,453 --> 00:32:30,173
Speaker 4: so there's a massive bureaucracy and then we've got basically

475
00:32:30,213 --> 00:32:34,813
Speaker 4: nothing between that and individual schools. So what I'm thinking

476
00:32:34,853 --> 00:32:40,293
Speaker 4: of is a way of organizing our schools into groups,

477
00:32:40,973 --> 00:32:44,933
Speaker 4: and I would set them up such that the primary

478
00:32:44,933 --> 00:32:48,573
Speaker 4: schools and secondary schools that were working together tended to

479
00:32:48,613 --> 00:32:51,853
Speaker 4: have children who passed through the primary schools into the

480
00:32:51,893 --> 00:32:53,973
Speaker 4: secondary schools and the same group, so you have a

481
00:32:54,013 --> 00:32:57,933
Speaker 4: more connected up view of the children as they passed through,

482
00:32:59,213 --> 00:33:04,173
Speaker 4: to have a mix of socioeconomic circumstances within them, so

483
00:33:04,213 --> 00:33:10,853
Speaker 4: that the resources were able to be shared across different

484
00:33:10,933 --> 00:33:16,093
Speaker 4: kinds of communities. And critically, I think that these organizations

485
00:33:16,173 --> 00:33:20,693
Speaker 4: should be owned by the schools themselves and become the

486
00:33:20,813 --> 00:33:25,333
Speaker 4: units of accountability. So if you have to some extent

487
00:33:25,653 --> 00:33:30,493
Speaker 4: a competitive element that might take place within these communities.

488
00:33:30,653 --> 00:33:34,493
Speaker 4: But also you'd have the different communities across the country

489
00:33:35,693 --> 00:33:38,893
Speaker 4: and we could compare how well each we're doing.

490
00:33:39,293 --> 00:33:43,093
Speaker 3: You've you've just given me an idea. Yes, we've got

491
00:33:43,093 --> 00:33:46,093
Speaker 3: a shortage of math teachers. We do, We've got an

492
00:33:46,093 --> 00:33:51,253
Speaker 3: even bigger shortage of good math teachers. So what about

493
00:33:51,293 --> 00:33:55,053
Speaker 3: sharing math teachers. You've got a part of the idea.

494
00:33:55,213 --> 00:33:58,653
Speaker 3: So let's talk about what these communities might do. First,

495
00:33:58,693 --> 00:34:02,733
Speaker 3: and foremost, I think it is the sharing of good practice.

496
00:34:03,053 --> 00:34:05,733
Speaker 3: So you could have a situation where you know, it's

497
00:34:05,453 --> 00:34:08,733
Speaker 3: a really good maths teacher was the condo for a

498
00:34:08,773 --> 00:34:14,373
Speaker 3: couple of years to work for this community and to

499
00:34:14,493 --> 00:34:17,533
Speaker 3: lead professional development across a range of schools, and that

500
00:34:17,613 --> 00:34:21,493
Speaker 3: way you spread that good practice across schools instead of

501
00:34:21,533 --> 00:34:24,853
Speaker 3: having it all focused and where that teacher is working.

502
00:34:26,573 --> 00:34:29,213
Speaker 3: And for sure that school then loses that teacher for

503
00:34:29,253 --> 00:34:33,013
Speaker 3: a couple of years, but they're making a wider contribution

504
00:34:33,133 --> 00:34:35,493
Speaker 3: there was I was thinking, though, I was thinking more

505
00:34:35,533 --> 00:34:39,093
Speaker 3: of the same teacher teaching it. I mean, that's their

506
00:34:39,133 --> 00:34:45,493
Speaker 3: specialty maths at level three or whatever, and they've got

507
00:34:46,773 --> 00:34:50,573
Speaker 3: a couple of classes, classrooms, they're dealing with the school

508
00:34:50,573 --> 00:34:53,493
Speaker 3: that they're at, but they've got plenty of time up

509
00:34:53,493 --> 00:34:58,173
Speaker 3: there sleeve. I'm guessing. I'm guessing, why can't they work

510
00:34:58,213 --> 00:35:01,573
Speaker 3: out with another local school that this teacher is shared

511
00:35:01,613 --> 00:35:04,533
Speaker 3: between them and they do both schools at that level.

512
00:35:05,173 --> 00:35:08,573
Speaker 4: So that's certainly a possibility, especially for smaller school so

513
00:35:08,613 --> 00:35:11,653
Speaker 4: that they could share teachers like that. I mean, you

514
00:35:11,693 --> 00:35:16,253
Speaker 4: would find that a maths teacher at a large secondary

515
00:35:16,293 --> 00:35:19,173
Speaker 4: school would be working full time just at that secondary

516
00:35:19,213 --> 00:35:22,973
Speaker 4: school teaching maths, so they wouldn't have a lot of

517
00:35:23,013 --> 00:35:27,533
Speaker 4: spare time. But my point, my point is that why

518
00:35:28,813 --> 00:35:34,053
Speaker 4: just let them be an excellent teacher in isolation. Why

519
00:35:34,093 --> 00:35:37,933
Speaker 4: not enable them to share their expertise and bring other

520
00:35:38,013 --> 00:35:39,493
Speaker 4: teachers up.

521
00:35:40,813 --> 00:35:41,573
Speaker 2: In expertise.

522
00:35:42,373 --> 00:35:47,093
Speaker 4: So professional development is one thing that these centers could do.

523
00:35:47,373 --> 00:35:50,933
Speaker 4: Another would be teacher education. So instead of having teachers

524
00:35:50,973 --> 00:35:54,973
Speaker 4: trained at university, have them trained in the classroom, and.

525
00:35:57,013 --> 00:35:59,213
Speaker 2: Then you know, you have a community of.

526
00:35:59,173 --> 00:36:03,893
Speaker 4: Schools that has a critical mass that enables a really

527
00:36:03,933 --> 00:36:08,493
Speaker 4: strong teacher education program to be put in place. Is

528
00:36:08,493 --> 00:36:10,653
Speaker 4: going to have much more practical focus. There's going to

529
00:36:10,653 --> 00:36:14,413
Speaker 4: be more of an alignment between the kind of course

530
00:36:14,453 --> 00:36:18,573
Speaker 4: work element of the program and what teachers actually need

531
00:36:18,613 --> 00:36:22,933
Speaker 4: in the classrooms because schools are nothing if not pragmatic

532
00:36:22,973 --> 00:36:27,853
Speaker 4: and practical. They've got huge challenges and they know what

533
00:36:27,933 --> 00:36:33,573
Speaker 4: teachers need to learn better than universities do. So there

534
00:36:33,573 --> 00:36:37,733
Speaker 4: would still be a place, a strong place for teacher educators,

535
00:36:37,773 --> 00:36:41,733
Speaker 4: but let them be employed by the schools themselves. Let

536
00:36:41,773 --> 00:36:46,173
Speaker 4: the communities of schools have their own qualification. And look,

537
00:36:46,173 --> 00:36:48,733
Speaker 4: there's already a model for this taking place with the

538
00:36:48,773 --> 00:36:52,053
Speaker 4: community of schools in Auckland that has got a teacher

539
00:36:52,133 --> 00:36:56,253
Speaker 4: qualification that they run and they train teachers in schools,

540
00:36:56,253 --> 00:36:59,053
Speaker 4: and I think that this is the way ahead with

541
00:36:59,173 --> 00:37:04,253
Speaker 4: teacher education. So it'll take a while to ratchet up

542
00:37:04,253 --> 00:37:08,493
Speaker 4: something like that, but I think that the remodeling of

543
00:37:08,493 --> 00:37:11,613
Speaker 4: the education system along the lines that I'm talking about

544
00:37:11,893 --> 00:37:16,013
Speaker 4: would really help. Other things that these communities could do

545
00:37:16,173 --> 00:37:18,813
Speaker 4: is instead of you know, if you need an educational

546
00:37:18,853 --> 00:37:24,853
Speaker 4: psychologist to assess a child for dyslexia or ADHD or

547
00:37:24,853 --> 00:37:27,893
Speaker 4: whatever it is, you don't have to wait months for

548
00:37:27,933 --> 00:37:31,653
Speaker 4: the ministry to allocate one to you. Instead, you have

549
00:37:33,133 --> 00:37:37,373
Speaker 4: a cadre of specialists working for your community who circulate

550
00:37:37,413 --> 00:37:39,613
Speaker 4: around the schools and do the work that needs to

551
00:37:39,653 --> 00:37:42,093
Speaker 4: be done. And that's going to result in a more

552
00:37:42,133 --> 00:37:46,893
Speaker 4: efficient allocation of resources like that as well. So I

553
00:37:46,933 --> 00:37:50,973
Speaker 4: think these communities could take on a lot and that importantly,

554
00:37:51,013 --> 00:37:54,293
Speaker 4: they would also be the center of accountability. So at

555
00:37:54,293 --> 00:38:01,613
Speaker 4: the moment, we have almost no feedback from schools to parents,

556
00:38:01,733 --> 00:38:07,173
Speaker 4: to government, to the state, and that's because we just

557
00:38:07,213 --> 00:38:11,213
Speaker 4: don't collect enough data and report it. Schools run assessments,

558
00:38:11,253 --> 00:38:13,613
Speaker 4: but they keep those data to themselves.

559
00:38:14,253 --> 00:38:15,773
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons for that.

560
00:38:16,533 --> 00:38:18,733
Speaker 3: It should be public knowledge.

561
00:38:18,733 --> 00:38:22,093
Speaker 2: Yes, it should be public knowledge. Why is it not? Well?

562
00:38:22,453 --> 00:38:29,333
Speaker 4: Schools fear reporting data because they fear being exposed basically,

563
00:38:29,973 --> 00:38:35,413
Speaker 4: and that's an understandable fear. It's not acceptable situation. But

564
00:38:35,893 --> 00:38:39,053
Speaker 4: what's the way around it. If we made the community

565
00:38:39,093 --> 00:38:44,453
Speaker 4: itself the locus of accountability, then the schools that belong

566
00:38:44,533 --> 00:38:47,973
Speaker 4: to that community would collect data and report it to

567
00:38:48,093 --> 00:38:56,413
Speaker 4: their community and let me finish. Then the community itself

568
00:38:56,453 --> 00:38:59,053
Speaker 4: would aggregate that data and report it to the center,

569
00:38:59,453 --> 00:39:02,013
Speaker 4: and that would be It would be the community as

570
00:39:02,053 --> 00:39:04,613
Speaker 4: a whole held accountable for those data.

571
00:39:05,653 --> 00:39:07,933
Speaker 2: So then the schools.

572
00:39:07,493 --> 00:39:10,173
Speaker 4: Within that community would have a strong incentive to help

573
00:39:10,213 --> 00:39:13,853
Speaker 4: one another improve and no one school would have to

574
00:39:13,853 --> 00:39:17,253
Speaker 4: feel so exposed. And I think that might be a

575
00:39:17,293 --> 00:39:21,333
Speaker 4: way to solve our data problem. That idea does need

576
00:39:21,333 --> 00:39:24,653
Speaker 4: a bit more thinking through, in particular what to do

577
00:39:24,853 --> 00:39:28,053
Speaker 4: when you've got a whole community that isn't functioning well,

578
00:39:28,693 --> 00:39:31,453
Speaker 4: But I think it would take the heat off individual

579
00:39:31,493 --> 00:39:37,733
Speaker 4: schools as well as building an incentive structure for the

580
00:39:37,733 --> 00:39:41,093
Speaker 4: schools to help one another more for schools that we're

581
00:39:41,133 --> 00:39:43,973
Speaker 4: doing well, say in literacy, to be able to help

582
00:39:44,013 --> 00:39:46,533
Speaker 4: ones within their community that we're not doing so well

583
00:39:46,733 --> 00:39:49,213
Speaker 4: because they've got a collective interest in the data that

584
00:39:49,253 --> 00:39:50,813
Speaker 4: they're reporting to the center.

585
00:39:52,093 --> 00:39:55,533
Speaker 3: Of the well. The main reason that triggered this conversation

586
00:39:55,653 --> 00:39:59,293
Speaker 3: today is something that I picked up a few days

587
00:39:59,333 --> 00:40:05,493
Speaker 3: ago with regard to the American election. Let me quote you.

588
00:40:06,053 --> 00:40:09,333
Speaker 3: Donald Trump's vision for education revolves around a single goal

589
00:40:09,573 --> 00:40:16,133
Speaker 3: to rid America's schools of perceived wokeness and left wing indoctrination.

590
00:40:17,493 --> 00:40:20,893
Speaker 3: You can tell already that the word perceived before those

591
00:40:20,973 --> 00:40:26,373
Speaker 3: two is hinting at the angle that the article has

592
00:40:26,453 --> 00:40:31,573
Speaker 3: taken from AP News. The president elect wants to forbid

593
00:40:31,573 --> 00:40:35,253
Speaker 3: the classroom lessons on gender identity and structural racism. He

594
00:40:35,293 --> 00:40:38,493
Speaker 3: wants to abolish diversity and inclusion officers. He wants to

595
00:40:38,533 --> 00:40:42,053
Speaker 3: keep transgender athletes out of girls' sports. Throughout his campaign,

596
00:40:42,093 --> 00:40:46,333
Speaker 3: the Republican depicted schools as a political battleground to be

597
00:40:46,453 --> 00:40:49,493
Speaker 3: won back from the left. Now that he's won the

598
00:40:49,533 --> 00:40:52,373
Speaker 3: White House, he plans to use federal money as leverage

599
00:40:52,453 --> 00:40:57,773
Speaker 3: to advance his vision of education across the country. Now,

600
00:40:58,053 --> 00:41:04,253
Speaker 3: in so doing, he's vowed to disengage the Department of Education.

601
00:41:06,133 --> 00:41:09,093
Speaker 3: And you talk about the thousands of people in the

602
00:41:09,773 --> 00:41:13,813
Speaker 3: department in this country. It made me wonder if there

603
00:41:13,893 --> 00:41:16,733
Speaker 3: was a similar approach that maybe we could look at.

604
00:41:17,653 --> 00:41:20,133
Speaker 3: But it's not. It's not easy because he's going to

605
00:41:20,133 --> 00:41:22,013
Speaker 3: send it back to the States. We've got the States

606
00:41:22,053 --> 00:41:23,173
Speaker 3: to send it back too.

607
00:41:23,373 --> 00:41:27,093
Speaker 4: Yeah, So have we have a simpler system and easy

608
00:41:27,173 --> 00:41:31,413
Speaker 4: it's sort out because it's not so huge and doesn't

609
00:41:31,453 --> 00:41:35,693
Speaker 4: have the complication of states as America and Australia do.

610
00:41:36,493 --> 00:41:38,773
Speaker 2: So we do have it. So a couple of things

611
00:41:38,813 --> 00:41:39,213
Speaker 2: about that.

612
00:41:39,253 --> 00:41:41,773
Speaker 4: First of all, the kind of approach that I'm talking

613
00:41:41,773 --> 00:41:45,093
Speaker 4: about with establishing these communities of schools, they would need

614
00:41:45,133 --> 00:41:47,853
Speaker 4: resources that I would say, they would need physical premises.

615
00:41:48,773 --> 00:41:49,853
Speaker 2: Now, how do we fund that?

616
00:41:50,533 --> 00:41:53,893
Speaker 4: Well, we take a whole lot of functions off the Ministry,

617
00:41:54,133 --> 00:41:57,693
Speaker 4: basically turn it into a smallish policy shop in Wellington,

618
00:41:58,733 --> 00:42:01,733
Speaker 4: and instead of having all these regional offices, give the

619
00:42:01,773 --> 00:42:08,213
Speaker 4: resources to the to the schools themselves to use more locally.

620
00:42:09,173 --> 00:42:11,613
Speaker 4: I think that would be a more effective approach. So

621
00:42:11,973 --> 00:42:14,613
Speaker 4: that's the answer to that part of the question. I

622
00:42:14,653 --> 00:42:20,653
Speaker 4: would downsize the Ministry greatly and reallocate the resources to

623
00:42:20,733 --> 00:42:23,173
Speaker 4: the communities of schools for which they would have to

624
00:42:23,213 --> 00:42:26,133
Speaker 4: be accountable that's an important part of it, making sure

625
00:42:26,253 --> 00:42:29,173
Speaker 4: there is accountability for how those resources are used. And

626
00:42:29,253 --> 00:42:32,413
Speaker 4: at the moment, the ministry isn't really held to account

627
00:42:32,453 --> 00:42:38,093
Speaker 4: for presiding over twenty bus years of educational decline. So

628
00:42:38,373 --> 00:42:41,213
Speaker 4: I think it is time to try something different. To

629
00:42:41,293 --> 00:42:44,573
Speaker 4: turn to what Trump is saying about education. There's a

630
00:42:44,613 --> 00:42:48,053
Speaker 4: lot in that which I agree with. I think it

631
00:42:48,173 --> 00:42:52,173
Speaker 4: is true that education systems across the world have become

632
00:42:52,253 --> 00:42:58,053
Speaker 4: captured by certain ideological ideas, and that is not good

633
00:42:58,533 --> 00:43:02,093
Speaker 4: educational practice because, to use a bit of a cliche,

634
00:43:02,173 --> 00:43:04,333
Speaker 4: we need to teach children how to think and not

635
00:43:04,373 --> 00:43:10,733
Speaker 4: what to think. Having said that, lightly worried that Trump

636
00:43:11,613 --> 00:43:17,933
Speaker 4: might implement ideological ideas of his own, and so that

637
00:43:17,973 --> 00:43:21,733
Speaker 4: to me would be not fixing the problem, but just

638
00:43:21,853 --> 00:43:22,733
Speaker 4: changing the problem.

639
00:43:23,333 --> 00:43:25,053
Speaker 3: I don't have that for you.

640
00:43:26,693 --> 00:43:27,493
Speaker 2: I hope you're right.

641
00:43:28,093 --> 00:43:33,013
Speaker 4: I mean, so, if you take the question of gender

642
00:43:33,093 --> 00:43:37,093
Speaker 4: identity or whatever, I don't think there's any problem in

643
00:43:37,493 --> 00:43:41,493
Speaker 4: teaching about that. But all ideas need to be contestable.

644
00:43:42,413 --> 00:43:45,573
Speaker 4: So you put the idea on the table, is it

645
00:43:45,653 --> 00:43:51,253
Speaker 4: possible for a boy to become a girl? Well, let's

646
00:43:51,293 --> 00:43:53,973
Speaker 4: look at that from all different angles and bring the

647
00:43:53,973 --> 00:43:56,773
Speaker 4: evidence to bere what does biology have to say about that,

648
00:43:58,333 --> 00:44:00,933
Speaker 4: and what's the difference between sex and gender? And if

649
00:44:00,933 --> 00:44:03,693
Speaker 4: we could have open discussions about that in our classrooms

650
00:44:03,693 --> 00:44:09,013
Speaker 4: that were not dominated by ideologies, then we would be

651
00:44:09,133 --> 00:44:13,053
Speaker 4: using that issue as which is, you know, obviously of

652
00:44:13,093 --> 00:44:16,373
Speaker 4: contemporary social interest, because it's all over the place at

653
00:44:16,373 --> 00:44:19,293
Speaker 4: the moment. If we could have open discussions about it

654
00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:22,853
Speaker 4: in the light of evidence, then people would be taught

655
00:44:22,893 --> 00:44:26,733
Speaker 4: to draw their conclusions based on evidence instead of ideology.

656
00:44:27,613 --> 00:44:31,293
Speaker 3: What place does the World Health Organization have in the classroom?

657
00:44:34,533 --> 00:44:36,733
Speaker 2: Very little place as far as I can see. I

658
00:44:36,733 --> 00:44:37,733
Speaker 2: don't know why it would.

659
00:44:37,573 --> 00:44:41,053
Speaker 3: Have the place, well, because it chooses.

660
00:44:40,733 --> 00:44:44,013
Speaker 2: To Can you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

661
00:44:44,173 --> 00:44:47,693
Speaker 3: I can. I could elaborate in great details, except we

662
00:44:47,773 --> 00:44:52,213
Speaker 3: don't have enough time even in this podcast, however. Hugh

663
00:44:52,293 --> 00:44:55,773
Speaker 3: McCarthy is a retired as a head teacher after twenty

664
00:44:55,813 --> 00:45:00,093
Speaker 3: three years in that role. He also lectured in postgraduate

665
00:45:00,173 --> 00:45:04,773
Speaker 3: leadership course at the University of Ulster. And there's more

666
00:45:04,813 --> 00:45:07,973
Speaker 3: detail about this about this guy who has written a

667
00:45:08,013 --> 00:45:12,213
Speaker 3: twelve page missive Look who's in the classroom? Look who

668
00:45:13,093 --> 00:45:18,533
Speaker 3: who is in the classroom? Right the process to legislate

669
00:45:18,533 --> 00:45:22,533
Speaker 3: the amended Form of Relationship and Sexuality Education RS into

670
00:45:22,613 --> 00:45:26,213
Speaker 3: the school curriculum has seen the divers the diversion of

671
00:45:26,333 --> 00:45:30,173
Speaker 3: much needed administrative and teaching time and resources away from

672
00:45:30,253 --> 00:45:34,653
Speaker 3: education fundamentals such as reading and numeracy, the standards of

673
00:45:34,733 --> 00:45:38,893
Speaker 3: both of which have fallen alarmingly. The decline in reading

674
00:45:38,893 --> 00:45:42,093
Speaker 3: and numeracy standards caused by the impact of COVID related

675
00:45:42,093 --> 00:45:45,373
Speaker 3: policies has seen the UK achieve its worst standards since

676
00:45:45,413 --> 00:45:49,133
Speaker 3: two thousand and six and the US the worst in

677
00:45:49,173 --> 00:45:51,253
Speaker 3: the history. Anyway, I won't go on, but.

678
00:45:53,053 --> 00:45:55,213
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Now.

679
00:45:55,493 --> 00:46:01,173
Speaker 4: Yeah, whether it's the WHO or other organizations in the background,

680
00:46:01,613 --> 00:46:05,013
Speaker 4: I think there are some influences in our classrooms on

681
00:46:05,213 --> 00:46:12,173
Speaker 4: things like the Healton Sexuality curriculum. There are definitely some

682
00:46:12,293 --> 00:46:15,893
Speaker 4: interests that have been influencing our schools.

683
00:46:16,053 --> 00:46:16,253
Speaker 2: Now.

684
00:46:16,493 --> 00:46:20,093
Speaker 4: This is actually one other very good argument for a

685
00:46:20,173 --> 00:46:23,213
Speaker 4: much stronger curriculum than we've had, because if we have

686
00:46:23,253 --> 00:46:27,933
Speaker 4: a really strong and full curriculum, then that specifies what

687
00:46:28,053 --> 00:46:33,013
Speaker 4: teachers are obligated to teach, and they're not going to

688
00:46:33,053 --> 00:46:35,973
Speaker 4: have much time to do these other things.

689
00:46:37,493 --> 00:46:41,773
Speaker 3: Some of them, from my information, would do anything to

690
00:46:42,533 --> 00:46:47,453
Speaker 3: continue with it because there is a.

691
00:46:46,573 --> 00:46:47,093
Speaker 2: They might do.

692
00:46:47,173 --> 00:46:51,573
Speaker 4: But if they're held accountable for teaching a really robust

693
00:46:51,573 --> 00:46:57,853
Speaker 4: and knowledge rich curriculum, then if they choose to spend

694
00:46:57,933 --> 00:47:02,053
Speaker 4: time doing these other things, then they might fail to

695
00:47:02,053 --> 00:47:04,733
Speaker 4: deliver what's expected of them, and there needs to be

696
00:47:04,973 --> 00:47:06,573
Speaker 4: ultimately consequences for that.

697
00:47:08,533 --> 00:47:13,293
Speaker 3: Well, we certainly agree on that. You mentioned the word

698
00:47:13,493 --> 00:47:16,573
Speaker 3: bureaucracy before when you were talking about them at headquarters.

699
00:47:16,613 --> 00:47:19,173
Speaker 3: Basically i'd use the word autocracy.

700
00:47:20,133 --> 00:47:21,613
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean it's interesting.

701
00:47:22,253 --> 00:47:25,813
Speaker 4: Our school system is actually incredibly devolved, and I think

702
00:47:25,853 --> 00:47:28,693
Speaker 4: that has become part of the problem that we just

703
00:47:28,773 --> 00:47:36,533
Speaker 4: have all it's highly fractured. Indeed, so in some sense

704
00:47:36,613 --> 00:47:41,773
Speaker 4: the Ministry doesn't do enough at all to preside over

705
00:47:42,333 --> 00:47:45,533
Speaker 4: the education system. Having said that, I wouldn't trust the

706
00:47:45,693 --> 00:47:48,573
Speaker 4: ministry to preside over it, and I think we need

707
00:47:48,813 --> 00:47:51,493
Speaker 4: a different way of structuring it, which is what I'm

708
00:47:51,533 --> 00:47:55,293
Speaker 4: thinking through now. And the ideas that I've laid out

709
00:47:55,653 --> 00:48:00,133
Speaker 4: today are actually the first public airing of them. I'm

710
00:48:00,173 --> 00:48:03,013
Speaker 4: not the only one have thought along these lines, of course,

711
00:48:04,613 --> 00:48:08,693
Speaker 4: but I do think we need to think very carefully

712
00:48:08,973 --> 00:48:13,533
Speaker 4: in terms of the ministry being an autocracy. Well, in

713
00:48:13,613 --> 00:48:16,893
Speaker 4: some ways it probably is, but I think in ways

714
00:48:16,933 --> 00:48:21,413
Speaker 4: that it needs to assert a bit more control. It's

715
00:48:21,413 --> 00:48:24,773
Speaker 4: actually left things way too up in the air for

716
00:48:24,813 --> 00:48:25,413
Speaker 4: a long time.

717
00:48:25,533 --> 00:48:28,173
Speaker 3: Yes, but the people are the people capable of doing that,

718
00:48:28,253 --> 00:48:30,013
Speaker 3: actually holding down positions.

719
00:48:30,973 --> 00:48:32,813
Speaker 4: There are some There are some really good people in

720
00:48:32,853 --> 00:48:37,013
Speaker 4: the ministry, for example, the crew that do the international

721
00:48:37,053 --> 00:48:40,973
Speaker 4: testing work. I think they're really good statisticians and they

722
00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:42,093
Speaker 4: provide good information.

723
00:48:42,493 --> 00:48:44,693
Speaker 2: There are pockets of good.

724
00:48:46,053 --> 00:48:48,493
Speaker 4: Work happening in the ministry, But as a whole, it's

725
00:48:48,533 --> 00:48:53,973
Speaker 4: a highly dysfunctional organization. It's it's faction written and it

726
00:48:54,053 --> 00:48:59,613
Speaker 4: is yeah, not using it as a resource as well.

727
00:48:59,653 --> 00:49:05,333
Speaker 3: Shall we say, look, we we must before we terminate,

728
00:49:05,373 --> 00:49:09,333
Speaker 3: we must touch on one other thing. And this could

729
00:49:09,333 --> 00:49:11,373
Speaker 3: take as well. You can have as long as you like.

730
00:49:12,133 --> 00:49:17,453
Speaker 3: But AI now before you go. AI is something that

731
00:49:17,813 --> 00:49:21,053
Speaker 3: I'm intrigued with, but not so much. In fact, i'd

732
00:49:21,573 --> 00:49:25,933
Speaker 3: put AI in a parallel position to what Bitcoin was

733
00:49:25,973 --> 00:49:29,133
Speaker 3: when we first started talking about it a few years ago,

734
00:49:29,373 --> 00:49:31,213
Speaker 3: and I put my neck on the line and said

735
00:49:31,693 --> 00:49:36,413
Speaker 3: it'll collapse, it'll never go anywhere. Was totally wrong. So

736
00:49:37,253 --> 00:49:41,293
Speaker 3: the question is is AI in a similar similar category?

737
00:49:41,773 --> 00:49:45,453
Speaker 3: Is it a danger as much as it could be

738
00:49:45,573 --> 00:49:49,613
Speaker 3: a positive. How do you I know how you see

739
00:49:49,613 --> 00:49:53,333
Speaker 3: it because I've read I've read your articles, but take

740
00:49:53,333 --> 00:49:54,693
Speaker 3: it from where you want.

741
00:49:55,493 --> 00:49:55,733
Speaker 2: Yeah.

742
00:49:56,053 --> 00:49:59,973
Speaker 4: So the way I started my reporter on AI was

743
00:50:00,013 --> 00:50:03,373
Speaker 4: to think back to the nineteen seventies and eighties, when

744
00:50:03,413 --> 00:50:07,933
Speaker 4: handheld calculators were finding their way into the pockets of

745
00:50:08,413 --> 00:50:12,293
Speaker 4: young people, and the idea was that now maybe we

746
00:50:12,333 --> 00:50:15,053
Speaker 4: don't need to teach them arithmetic anymore because they've got

747
00:50:15,053 --> 00:50:18,693
Speaker 4: these calculators to do it for them. And of course

748
00:50:18,733 --> 00:50:20,893
Speaker 4: the flaw in that is if they don't learn to

749
00:50:20,933 --> 00:50:25,333
Speaker 4: do arithmetic to the point of what we call cognitive automaticity,

750
00:50:25,373 --> 00:50:27,653
Speaker 4: which is to say, you know, you know your times

751
00:50:27,693 --> 00:50:31,733
Speaker 4: table's cold, and you know how to add numbers together

752
00:50:32,573 --> 00:50:36,773
Speaker 4: using an algorithm pretty straightforwardly and without much effort, You're

753
00:50:36,813 --> 00:50:38,933
Speaker 4: just not going to have the cognitive resources to take

754
00:50:38,973 --> 00:50:43,453
Speaker 4: further steps in mathematics. So everything that arithmetic depends on,

755
00:50:43,533 --> 00:50:45,853
Speaker 4: which is just about all of the rest of mathematics,

756
00:50:46,253 --> 00:50:48,693
Speaker 4: you're never going to be able to learn with any fluency.

757
00:50:49,733 --> 00:50:55,733
Speaker 4: So fast forward to AI. The same kind of argument

758
00:50:55,773 --> 00:50:58,893
Speaker 4: applies to learning to write. If you have an AI

759
00:50:59,133 --> 00:51:03,453
Speaker 4: producing writing for you, and there are some people who

760
00:51:03,453 --> 00:51:07,213
Speaker 4: have commented on the potential for AI to obviate the

761
00:51:07,253 --> 00:51:09,893
Speaker 4: need for children to learn to write themselves. Because they

762
00:51:09,933 --> 00:51:14,413
Speaker 4: can get AI to compile the facts and write a

763
00:51:14,573 --> 00:51:19,813
Speaker 4: reasonably cogent, if not exactly inspired piece, then they can

764
00:51:19,813 --> 00:51:23,333
Speaker 4: spend their time thinking critically about what the AI has produced.

765
00:51:24,333 --> 00:51:27,253
Speaker 4: Trouble with that is that, first of all, as I

766
00:51:27,293 --> 00:51:30,133
Speaker 4: said before, to think critically, you need a lot of knowledge,

767
00:51:30,373 --> 00:51:35,493
Speaker 4: and so just outsourcing knowledge production to AI is not

768
00:51:35,533 --> 00:51:41,573
Speaker 4: going to teach you knowledge. And secondly, writing is itself

769
00:51:41,613 --> 00:51:44,573
Speaker 4: a tool of thinking. So when we write, if we're

770
00:51:44,653 --> 00:51:48,733
Speaker 4: writing fluently and well, we are able to compile our ideas,

771
00:51:48,813 --> 00:51:52,133
Speaker 4: rearrange our ideas. In other words, we can get out

772
00:51:52,213 --> 00:51:55,613
Speaker 4: of our heads onto the page, as it were, our thoughts,

773
00:51:56,053 --> 00:52:01,293
Speaker 4: and then that gives us the kind of headspace freed

774
00:52:01,373 --> 00:52:04,453
Speaker 4: up to be able to think through those ideas properly,

775
00:52:05,173 --> 00:52:08,213
Speaker 4: to self criticize our ideas, and to rearrange them to

776
00:52:08,413 --> 00:52:11,933
Speaker 4: improve our arguments. So writing is itself a really important

777
00:52:11,973 --> 00:52:17,293
Speaker 4: tool of thinking, and we mustn't allow AI to subvert

778
00:52:18,653 --> 00:52:22,053
Speaker 4: the necessity for young people to learn to write and

779
00:52:22,413 --> 00:52:26,573
Speaker 4: to think and to acquire knowledge of their own. I

780
00:52:26,573 --> 00:52:30,453
Speaker 4: think there are some opportunities that are offered by AI educationally,

781
00:52:30,533 --> 00:52:36,853
Speaker 4: but it's much more in the category of feedback to children.

782
00:52:36,933 --> 00:52:40,133
Speaker 4: So you can imagine young people perhaps producing a piece

783
00:52:40,173 --> 00:52:43,453
Speaker 4: of writing of their own and then feeding it to

784
00:52:43,533 --> 00:52:46,613
Speaker 4: the AI, which doesn't just sort of rewrite it for them,

785
00:52:46,613 --> 00:52:51,013
Speaker 4: but says there are some problems with the way you've

786
00:52:51,013 --> 00:52:55,213
Speaker 4: structured this sentence and that sentence, and maybe even have

787
00:52:55,333 --> 00:52:58,813
Speaker 4: you thought about this counter argument to this idea. So

788
00:52:58,853 --> 00:53:01,453
Speaker 4: in other words, it's it's acting more as a coach.

789
00:53:01,933 --> 00:53:05,813
Speaker 4: It should also always be under the supervision of a

790
00:53:06,533 --> 00:53:11,173
Speaker 4: skilled teacher. We shouldn't just let AI take over in

791
00:53:11,213 --> 00:53:11,853
Speaker 4: the classroom.

792
00:53:12,693 --> 00:53:15,653
Speaker 3: Is it being actively used the moment in the classroom.

793
00:53:15,733 --> 00:53:19,013
Speaker 4: I think it's starting to be yes, And I don't

794
00:53:19,053 --> 00:53:21,133
Speaker 4: have a good handle on how it's being used at

795
00:53:21,133 --> 00:53:24,973
Speaker 4: this stage. I suspect it's very ad hoc because there

796
00:53:25,013 --> 00:53:32,373
Speaker 4: hasn't been any sort of central effort to introduce it

797
00:53:31,613 --> 00:53:35,893
Speaker 4: in a way that has any principles behind it. I

798
00:53:35,933 --> 00:53:38,453
Speaker 4: think a lot of teachers will intuitively understand that it's

799
00:53:38,453 --> 00:53:43,413
Speaker 4: a bad idea to let AI do writing for young people,

800
00:53:43,453 --> 00:53:46,333
Speaker 4: but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some of that happening.

801
00:53:47,493 --> 00:53:49,733
Speaker 4: Is there, apart from anything else, that's quite hard to

802
00:53:49,773 --> 00:53:51,413
Speaker 4: control what young people do with it?

803
00:53:52,533 --> 00:53:56,453
Speaker 3: Well, we found that out yep. Is there any danger

804
00:53:56,453 --> 00:53:59,053
Speaker 3: that it could be captured and used illicitly?

805
00:53:59,653 --> 00:54:01,173
Speaker 2: Can you explain what you mean a bit more?

806
00:54:01,373 --> 00:54:04,653
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I don't know how it works. I

807
00:54:04,653 --> 00:54:07,373
Speaker 3: don't pretend to and at this point I don't really

808
00:54:07,413 --> 00:54:10,813
Speaker 3: have any great interest in the mechanics of it. But

809
00:54:12,093 --> 00:54:17,133
Speaker 3: as there is misinformation abroad in volumes, is there any

810
00:54:17,173 --> 00:54:25,853
Speaker 3: reason why AI can't be programmed to behave badly misleadingly misleader?

811
00:54:26,173 --> 00:54:28,533
Speaker 4: There is no reason at all that it can't be

812
00:54:29,053 --> 00:54:32,733
Speaker 4: programmed to do that, And I would say that there

813
00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:37,893
Speaker 4: are probably engines that are like that already. So you

814
00:54:37,933 --> 00:54:40,613
Speaker 4: do need to understand a little bit about how AI

815
00:54:40,813 --> 00:54:46,493
Speaker 4: works to understand this. Essentially, AI doesn't know anything at all.

816
00:54:47,133 --> 00:54:51,133
Speaker 4: AI artificial intelligence is actually a bit of a misnomer.

817
00:54:51,133 --> 00:54:55,093
Speaker 4: I would say it's not intelligent. What it is is

818
00:54:55,293 --> 00:55:02,093
Speaker 4: a huge network which is trained using vast amounts of text. Now,

819
00:55:02,253 --> 00:55:06,613
Speaker 4: the text that you train it on will determine the

820
00:55:06,693 --> 00:55:10,173
Speaker 4: kinds of responses it gives you. So you could train

821
00:55:10,253 --> 00:55:15,573
Speaker 4: it on a whole bunch of documents from a particular

822
00:55:15,613 --> 00:55:20,133
Speaker 4: ideological perspective, and if you did that, the responses that

823
00:55:20,333 --> 00:55:25,693
Speaker 4: produced would be from that ideological perspective. And I think

824
00:55:25,733 --> 00:55:28,933
Speaker 4: there is already an extent to which the AI engines

825
00:55:29,013 --> 00:55:33,013
Speaker 4: are trained in something of a biased way. There's a

826
00:55:33,053 --> 00:55:38,413
Speaker 4: research called David Risado from Dunedin who has done some

827
00:55:38,453 --> 00:55:44,173
Speaker 4: really great work showing how various AI engines are politically biased.

828
00:55:44,173 --> 00:55:48,413
Speaker 4: And he does that by giving them questions from things

829
00:55:48,453 --> 00:55:51,893
Speaker 4: like the Political Compass test and seeing where they pitch up.

830
00:55:52,453 --> 00:55:56,653
Speaker 4: And most of the AI engines have a fairly pronounced

831
00:55:56,733 --> 00:56:00,613
Speaker 4: left wing bias, and one might suspect that they've been trained.

832
00:56:00,293 --> 00:56:06,613
Speaker 5: To be like that. And well, exactly, yes, you have

833
00:56:06,813 --> 00:56:09,813
Speaker 5: very valid concern. Then well you've got to the core

834
00:56:09,893 --> 00:56:14,173
Speaker 5: of my question right perfectly. There is something else I

835
00:56:14,253 --> 00:56:16,413
Speaker 5: just want to raise with you. Welfare.

836
00:56:17,373 --> 00:56:21,013
Speaker 3: The welfare system is I think, not just partly but

837
00:56:21,453 --> 00:56:25,573
Speaker 3: hugely responsible for a lot that's wrong with this country.

838
00:56:26,213 --> 00:56:29,893
Speaker 3: Now I could go into explanation, but if you do

839
00:56:29,973 --> 00:56:33,453
Speaker 3: agree with what I've just said, what's your thought.

840
00:56:35,013 --> 00:56:37,533
Speaker 4: Well, I'm not an economist and welfare isn't really my

841
00:56:37,653 --> 00:56:40,213
Speaker 4: area of central expertise, but what I would say is that,

842
00:56:42,093 --> 00:56:44,853
Speaker 4: and we're at ABTZ education is that we need these

843
00:56:44,893 --> 00:56:48,293
Speaker 4: systems to left people out of bad circumstances and not

844
00:56:48,413 --> 00:56:53,413
Speaker 4: keep them there. So a welfare system that promotes into

845
00:56:53,453 --> 00:56:59,013
Speaker 4: generation or dependence is not good. There are situations in

846
00:56:59,053 --> 00:57:02,733
Speaker 4: which people need welfare. We should always be looking to

847
00:57:04,493 --> 00:57:07,373
Speaker 4: improve their capabilities so that they don't have to stay

848
00:57:07,413 --> 00:57:10,533
Speaker 4: on welfare and stay dependent, because that's not a recipe

849
00:57:10,573 --> 00:57:13,973
Speaker 4: for a meaningful life. Education has a really important role

850
00:57:14,053 --> 00:57:17,653
Speaker 4: to play in that for families that perhaps have been

851
00:57:18,093 --> 00:57:21,333
Speaker 4: stuck in a welfare trap for more than one generation.

852
00:57:22,573 --> 00:57:26,013
Speaker 4: It's pretty bad when a child has never seen an

853
00:57:26,053 --> 00:57:30,453
Speaker 4: adult who has a full time job, for example, and

854
00:57:31,653 --> 00:57:33,013
Speaker 4: we need to find a way out of that.

855
00:57:33,653 --> 00:57:36,173
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what triggered that you write something on

856
00:57:36,613 --> 00:57:40,973
Speaker 3: New Zealand needs a clearer pathway to apprenticeships. Yep, and

857
00:57:41,333 --> 00:57:46,173
Speaker 3: I read you the first paragraph. Every year in New Zealand,

858
00:57:46,173 --> 00:57:49,133
Speaker 3: around sixty two thousand young people leave school, just six

859
00:57:49,213 --> 00:57:53,053
Speaker 3: percent of them enter apprenticeship training. Nearly double that, eleven

860
00:57:53,093 --> 00:57:56,573
Speaker 3: percent neither gain employment nor enroll in post school education.

861
00:57:56,813 --> 00:58:00,253
Speaker 3: That comparison points to a serious waste of human potential.

862
00:58:01,253 --> 00:58:04,653
Speaker 3: In contrast, I agree with you entirely. In contrast, under

863
00:58:04,693 --> 00:58:08,253
Speaker 3: the German dual training system, fully half of school leaders

864
00:58:08,573 --> 00:58:11,733
Speaker 3: take up apprenticeships. Now, the reason it got my attention

865
00:58:12,493 --> 00:58:16,213
Speaker 3: was because a number of years ago I met two

866
00:58:16,973 --> 00:58:22,973
Speaker 3: young Germans who were visiting Australia. My father was married

867
00:58:23,013 --> 00:58:27,893
Speaker 3: to a German and one of them was related to it.

868
00:58:28,373 --> 00:58:32,413
Speaker 3: So I found out the bit of detail they were

869
00:58:32,453 --> 00:58:36,133
Speaker 3: on the doll and they were traveling the world and

870
00:58:36,173 --> 00:58:38,533
Speaker 3: if memory serves me correctly, they could do that for

871
00:58:38,573 --> 00:58:41,253
Speaker 3: two years without repercussion.

872
00:58:42,493 --> 00:58:45,253
Speaker 4: No, I mean, I'm not aware of that scheme, but

873
00:58:45,413 --> 00:58:47,053
Speaker 4: I do know that half of their school leaders do

874
00:58:47,213 --> 00:58:52,213
Speaker 4: go into apprenticeships, and there's a really well coordinated system

875
00:58:52,253 --> 00:58:57,373
Speaker 4: whereby they go through particular kinds of secondary schools, and

876
00:58:57,413 --> 00:59:00,573
Speaker 4: in fact they divide their kids at age ten into

877
00:59:00,613 --> 00:59:03,933
Speaker 4: different tracks, which I think is too young. But what

878
00:59:03,973 --> 00:59:07,013
Speaker 4: they do really well is when they leave school they

879
00:59:07,013 --> 00:59:10,333
Speaker 4: can be employed as an apprenticed by a company. They

880
00:59:10,333 --> 00:59:14,333
Speaker 4: don't have to pay for apprenticeship training because the companies

881
00:59:14,373 --> 00:59:19,573
Speaker 4: actually pulled the resources and fund a system whereby they're trained,

882
00:59:20,173 --> 00:59:24,013
Speaker 4: they work several days a week in the company, and

883
00:59:24,053 --> 00:59:27,013
Speaker 4: then they're studying with a tertiary provider.

884
00:59:27,053 --> 00:59:28,053
Speaker 2: The rest of the time.

885
00:59:27,853 --> 00:59:30,853
Speaker 4: To teach them the general skills of the trade that

886
00:59:30,893 --> 00:59:36,893
Speaker 4: they're preparing for, and when they qualify that they become

887
00:59:36,893 --> 00:59:41,613
Speaker 4: a master trades person, they can go on to be

888
00:59:41,653 --> 00:59:45,213
Speaker 4: a trainer themselves, which is a highly respected position in

889
00:59:45,493 --> 00:59:48,653
Speaker 4: German society. A lot of it comes back to culture.

890
00:59:48,933 --> 00:59:51,773
Speaker 4: The Germans have a very long standing respects for the trades.

891
00:59:52,293 --> 00:59:55,133
Speaker 4: In some sense, it goes back to the medieval guilds.

892
00:59:57,173 --> 01:00:00,413
Speaker 4: Be very difficult to reproduce their system in New Zealand,

893
01:00:00,413 --> 01:00:01,973
Speaker 4: but I think there are elements of it that we

894
01:00:02,013 --> 01:00:04,693
Speaker 4: could adopt. And really what I'm focusing on at the

895
01:00:04,733 --> 01:00:07,013
Speaker 4: moment is what we can do in the senior secondary

896
01:00:07,053 --> 01:00:11,013
Speaker 4: school to make the trades pathway much more visible and

897
01:00:11,093 --> 01:00:14,413
Speaker 4: much more accessible to young people so that we don't

898
01:00:14,533 --> 01:00:17,453
Speaker 4: end up with twice as many going on the doll

899
01:00:17,493 --> 01:00:21,093
Speaker 4: as we have leaving school and becoming apprentices If we

900
01:00:21,133 --> 01:00:24,373
Speaker 4: could even capture you know, that eleven percent and go

901
01:00:24,453 --> 01:00:28,253
Speaker 4: from six percent going into apprenticeships to something like fifteen percent,

902
01:00:28,333 --> 01:00:30,213
Speaker 4: that would be a really good start.

903
01:00:31,053 --> 01:00:34,693
Speaker 3: Indeed, and speaking of the word start, we might call

904
01:00:34,813 --> 01:00:40,453
Speaker 3: a finish no worries. So, Michael, it's great talking with

905
01:00:40,533 --> 01:00:42,213
Speaker 3: you and very productive.

906
01:00:42,253 --> 01:00:44,813
Speaker 2: I think it's very latent. Thanks have always a good

907
01:00:44,853 --> 01:00:45,973
Speaker 2: conversation with you.

908
01:00:46,093 --> 01:00:48,013
Speaker 3: Thanks kindly and we'll talk again.

909
01:00:48,333 --> 01:01:01,653
Speaker 2: Take care fine now, Layton Smith.

910
01:01:02,973 --> 01:01:07,373
Speaker 3: Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

911
01:01:07,573 --> 01:01:11,453
Speaker 3: Leveris really use hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin.

912
01:01:11,933 --> 01:01:16,253
Speaker 3: It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal

913
01:01:16,453 --> 01:01:21,093
Speaker 3: decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief and it

914
01:01:21,173 --> 01:01:24,253
Speaker 3: works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty

915
01:01:24,293 --> 01:01:28,093
Speaker 3: four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose,

916
01:01:28,413 --> 01:01:32,333
Speaker 3: deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Leverrix is an

917
01:01:32,333 --> 01:01:36,653
Speaker 3: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next

918
01:01:36,733 --> 01:01:40,253
Speaker 3: time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into

919
01:01:40,293 --> 01:01:45,893
Speaker 3: the pharmacy and ask for Leverrix l v Rix Levrix

920
01:01:46,293 --> 01:01:49,053
Speaker 3: and always read the label. Take us directed and if

921
01:01:49,093 --> 01:02:05,933
Speaker 3: symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Here

922
01:02:05,933 --> 01:02:08,653
Speaker 3: we are in two double six, that is Podcast two

923
01:02:08,693 --> 01:02:11,013
Speaker 3: double six with the mailroom and missus producer. How are

924
01:02:11,013 --> 01:02:12,533
Speaker 3: you feeling after your beach walk?

925
01:02:12,973 --> 01:02:14,933
Speaker 6: Lighton who couldn't feel fabulous?

926
01:02:14,933 --> 01:02:15,013
Speaker 2: On?

927
01:02:15,053 --> 01:02:17,333
Speaker 6: A day like this, life is good.

928
01:02:18,213 --> 01:02:20,253
Speaker 3: You realize that when people hear this it may be

929
01:02:20,373 --> 01:02:21,133
Speaker 3: bucketing down.

930
01:02:21,573 --> 01:02:24,013
Speaker 6: Yeah, but every day's fabulous, really, isn't it.

931
01:02:24,733 --> 01:02:25,533
Speaker 3: What if you're breathing?

932
01:02:26,533 --> 01:02:26,973
Speaker 6: We know that.

933
01:02:27,533 --> 01:02:30,613
Speaker 3: So for two double six, lead the way I shall start.

934
01:02:30,853 --> 01:02:34,573
Speaker 6: Lynn says. I am an ordinary New Zealander seventy seven

935
01:02:34,653 --> 01:02:37,933
Speaker 6: years of age. I find what happened last Thursday appalling,

936
01:02:38,093 --> 01:02:40,853
Speaker 6: of course, but I have seen a lot of political actions,

937
01:02:40,893 --> 01:02:44,053
Speaker 6: stunts and protests over my life. But this, this is

938
01:02:44,093 --> 01:02:47,493
Speaker 6: something sinister. This is not a protest. It is a

939
01:02:47,533 --> 01:02:51,573
Speaker 6: serious attempt to disable an elected government and dispense with

940
01:02:51,653 --> 01:02:55,493
Speaker 6: democracy and even the rule of law. They are blatantly

941
01:02:55,533 --> 01:02:58,013
Speaker 6: breaking the law and yet relying on the same law

942
01:02:58,053 --> 01:03:00,253
Speaker 6: to allow them to keep doing it. It is a

943
01:03:00,253 --> 01:03:03,133
Speaker 6: well established tactic of groups such as these to go

944
01:03:03,373 --> 01:03:07,013
Speaker 6: the government or establishment into taking the sort of action

945
01:03:07,093 --> 01:03:10,893
Speaker 6: that could allow them to I foul and act hurtful

946
01:03:11,013 --> 01:03:15,493
Speaker 6: and indignant. Also, schools and teachers are breaking their contracts

947
01:03:15,493 --> 01:03:18,773
Speaker 6: with the Ministry of Education. As public servants, they are

948
01:03:18,773 --> 01:03:22,333
Speaker 6: obliged to be seen as politically neutral. Yet twice last

949
01:03:22,373 --> 01:03:24,853
Speaker 6: week I saw the pupils and teachers of the two

950
01:03:24,893 --> 01:03:28,733
Speaker 6: local schools in my area marching around holding Mauri flags,

951
01:03:28,773 --> 01:03:32,453
Speaker 6: and teachers and pupils alike wearing red hats with white

952
01:03:32,533 --> 01:03:36,453
Speaker 6: feathers on them. So children as young as five are

953
01:03:36,493 --> 01:03:40,293
Speaker 6: indoctrinated into this. These children will no doubt be included

954
01:03:40,373 --> 01:03:45,253
Speaker 6: in the inflated figures reported by mainstream media. Equally upsetting,

955
01:03:45,333 --> 01:03:49,133
Speaker 6: says Lynn. Is Chris Luxen going to take any meaningful action?

956
01:03:49,453 --> 01:03:53,173
Speaker 6: I feel he should be supporting his coalition partner. I

957
01:03:53,253 --> 01:03:56,293
Speaker 6: know he has reiterated ad nauseum his feelings that he

958
01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:58,853
Speaker 6: doesn't like the bill, which I take to mean he's

959
01:03:58,893 --> 01:04:02,053
Speaker 6: wanting a quiet life. With all due respect, he should

960
01:04:02,093 --> 01:04:03,853
Speaker 6: be better than that, and I intend to make him

961
01:04:03,853 --> 01:04:06,493
Speaker 6: aware of my thoughts for all the good that that

962
01:04:06,573 --> 01:04:10,013
Speaker 6: will do. I will stop my rant later, as I

963
01:04:10,013 --> 01:04:12,173
Speaker 6: know abler pens than mine will be writing to you

964
01:04:12,213 --> 01:04:14,733
Speaker 6: on this subject, but I had to express my feelings

965
01:04:14,853 --> 01:04:18,613
Speaker 6: of fear about this. The Treaty Principle's bill is doing

966
01:04:18,653 --> 01:04:22,093
Speaker 6: no more than maintaining the principle of one man, one vote,

967
01:04:22,653 --> 01:04:25,693
Speaker 6: and lind says, I use man in the genetic sense,

968
01:04:25,933 --> 01:04:28,293
Speaker 6: as in mankind. Change it if you don't want to

969
01:04:28,373 --> 01:04:33,933
Speaker 6: risk cancelation. Another sinister aspect another sinister aspect of life

970
01:04:33,973 --> 01:04:36,693
Speaker 6: now and she says, thank you for your time. That's

971
01:04:36,693 --> 01:04:38,293
Speaker 6: from Lynn Linda.

972
01:04:38,373 --> 01:04:39,813
Speaker 3: At the end of the mail room, or before the

973
01:04:39,893 --> 01:04:41,773
Speaker 3: end of the mail room, I've got a comment to

974
01:04:41,893 --> 01:04:49,413
Speaker 3: make which I think you should hear from Chris. Thank

975
01:04:49,413 --> 01:04:53,413
Speaker 3: you for the US election debrief with Patrick Masham. Totally

976
01:04:53,453 --> 01:04:56,853
Speaker 3: worth the effort and the weight. I was one of

977
01:04:56,893 --> 01:04:59,813
Speaker 3: those people who called the election for Trump. During this election,

978
01:05:00,093 --> 01:05:03,453
Speaker 3: I was most interested in the way election processes were

979
01:05:03,533 --> 01:05:07,293
Speaker 3: handled post twenty twenty A note that quite a few

980
01:05:07,333 --> 01:05:12,533
Speaker 3: states in private entities instituted measures to counteract voter fraud

981
01:05:12,733 --> 01:05:16,173
Speaker 3: prior to the last week to well, he says, to

982
01:05:16,253 --> 01:05:20,293
Speaker 3: last week's elections. Honestly, on the day, my main interest

983
01:05:20,653 --> 01:05:23,693
Speaker 3: was how the timings and results from the seven swing

984
01:05:23,733 --> 01:05:27,693
Speaker 3: states were progressing, and I was not disappointed. However, in

985
01:05:27,733 --> 01:05:31,653
Speaker 3: the wake of Trump's win, the Republicans and supporters were

986
01:05:31,773 --> 01:05:35,733
Speaker 3: quick to credit success to their campaign activating voters to

987
01:05:35,813 --> 01:05:39,533
Speaker 3: the GOP cause. This may be true, but if we

988
01:05:39,613 --> 01:05:44,533
Speaker 3: put some context around the popular vote, things look slightly different,

989
01:05:45,093 --> 01:05:49,413
Speaker 3: although still great from a GOP perspective. In twenty sixteen,

990
01:05:49,453 --> 01:05:53,773
Speaker 3: Trump received sixty three million votes and Clinton sixty point

991
01:05:53,893 --> 01:05:58,533
Speaker 3: one million votes. In twenty twenty, Trump received seventy four

992
01:05:58,573 --> 01:06:02,533
Speaker 3: point two million votes and Biden eighty one point three

993
01:06:02,653 --> 01:06:07,333
Speaker 3: million votes. Really, in twenty twenty four, Trump has seventy

994
01:06:07,373 --> 01:06:09,933
Speaker 3: three point six million votes at the time I write

995
01:06:09,933 --> 01:06:13,933
Speaker 3: this email, while Harris has sixty nine point three. This

996
01:06:13,973 --> 01:06:18,933
Speaker 3: will increase slightly without thinking too deeply. In comparison to

997
01:06:18,973 --> 01:06:22,893
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty election, Harris has lost eleven million votes,

998
01:06:22,933 --> 01:06:27,093
Speaker 3: while Trump's vote count remained roughly the same. The red

999
01:06:27,133 --> 01:06:30,773
Speaker 3: wave looks in reality to be a receding blue tide.

1000
01:06:31,133 --> 01:06:35,013
Speaker 3: Has something more sinisterive been exposed by this outgoing tide

1001
01:06:35,173 --> 01:06:38,653
Speaker 3: of Democrat votes? I wonder, and then it break it's

1002
01:06:38,693 --> 01:06:42,453
Speaker 3: without evidence. I wonder, without evidence, if we are seeing

1003
01:06:42,573 --> 01:06:46,453
Speaker 3: a relatively clean twenty twenty four election where voter fraud

1004
01:06:46,853 --> 01:06:51,973
Speaker 3: has been effectively stymied, and the twenty twenty overcount is

1005
01:06:52,093 --> 01:06:56,133
Speaker 3: now obvious, or at least obvious enough to need openly

1006
01:06:56,213 --> 01:07:01,573
Speaker 3: explaining both for and against arguments would be welcome. Please

1007
01:07:01,653 --> 01:07:05,333
Speaker 3: keep up the great work, Chris. I sent that off

1008
01:07:05,333 --> 01:07:09,053
Speaker 3: to to Patrick actually with a question. I don't think

1009
01:07:09,093 --> 01:07:11,693
Speaker 3: I have a reply at this point, but I'll keep

1010
01:07:11,693 --> 01:07:12,413
Speaker 3: you in touch if I do.

1011
01:07:13,453 --> 01:07:16,813
Speaker 6: Latent John says, I've just this afternoon being speaking to

1012
01:07:16,853 --> 01:07:21,133
Speaker 6: a retired and knighted justice. As you know, not all

1013
01:07:21,173 --> 01:07:25,573
Speaker 6: retired judges get gonged. He must remain nameless, But he too,

1014
01:07:25,693 --> 01:07:28,933
Speaker 6: is very concerned with this partnership concept and where it

1015
01:07:29,013 --> 01:07:32,773
Speaker 6: might inevitably lead. A great majority of the electorate really

1016
01:07:32,813 --> 01:07:36,693
Speaker 6: needs to wise up to the probable disastrous outcome. A

1017
01:07:36,773 --> 01:07:39,853
Speaker 6: grab bag of kcs have come out and supported some

1018
01:07:39,973 --> 01:07:42,853
Speaker 6: of this radicalism. They tend to be the newer bunch,

1019
01:07:43,053 --> 01:07:47,813
Speaker 6: notable absences of endorsement from the older appointees. There are

1020
01:07:47,933 --> 01:07:51,213
Speaker 6: arguably too many cass now the currency of the honor

1021
01:07:51,253 --> 01:07:54,613
Speaker 6: has been devalued. When I started as a lawyer late

1022
01:07:54,813 --> 01:07:57,693
Speaker 6: nineteen sixties, there were only a handful of QC's in

1023
01:07:57,733 --> 01:08:00,973
Speaker 6: New Zealand. Now we're overrun with them. But I digress.

1024
01:08:01,613 --> 01:08:04,773
Speaker 6: I fear we're hurtling down a slippery slope. Don't think

1025
01:08:04,773 --> 01:08:08,813
Speaker 6: I'm overstating things, do you? If we have twofold systems,

1026
01:08:08,813 --> 01:08:12,253
Speaker 6: how does anyone with very mixed genes determine where they stand?

1027
01:08:12,733 --> 01:08:16,653
Speaker 6: Auckland's Asian population, for instance, becoming a high percentage of

1028
01:08:16,693 --> 01:08:21,413
Speaker 6: the populace they and other more recent mixed heritage immigrants.

1029
01:08:21,653 --> 01:08:26,173
Speaker 6: What for them? Seymour is courageous and absolutely correct. A

1030
01:08:26,293 --> 01:08:29,653
Speaker 6: huge amount of discussion needed. Too many second rates in

1031
01:08:29,693 --> 01:08:31,693
Speaker 6: the media who need to be given a wake.

1032
01:08:31,533 --> 01:08:35,853
Speaker 3: Up proud that's from John John very well put and

1033
01:08:35,933 --> 01:08:39,293
Speaker 3: I thank you late and missus producer. I hope you're well,

1034
01:08:39,973 --> 01:08:41,173
Speaker 3: miss a producer. Are you well?

1035
01:08:42,093 --> 01:08:44,413
Speaker 6: Very well? Thank you whoever's asking.

1036
01:08:44,213 --> 01:08:47,853
Speaker 3: The I'm a clip on short and sharp email expressing

1037
01:08:47,973 --> 01:08:51,573
Speaker 3: my and views of many others I speak to. The

1038
01:08:51,613 --> 01:08:56,573
Speaker 3: Seymour bill is not contentious, Just what radical illogical MARII

1039
01:08:56,693 --> 01:08:59,973
Speaker 3: don't want to hear the gravy train and misrepresentation of

1040
01:09:00,013 --> 01:09:03,133
Speaker 3: the treaty written in English by colonials at the time

1041
01:09:03,213 --> 01:09:07,893
Speaker 3: and translated by the same into Mari doesn't suit their agenda.

1042
01:09:08,373 --> 01:09:11,733
Speaker 3: I would be so bold as to suggest most New

1043
01:09:11,813 --> 01:09:15,213
Speaker 3: Zealanders are sick of their bleeding and devisive, hateful retrick.

1044
01:09:15,893 --> 01:09:21,493
Speaker 3: They are an embarrassment to this nation. Yes they are.

1045
01:09:23,293 --> 01:09:27,453
Speaker 6: Layton Mel says, love your podcasts, both yousus producer, Thank you, Mel.

1046
01:09:27,573 --> 01:09:30,693
Speaker 6: It's all Layton, I'm telling you, it is all Laton.

1047
01:09:31,653 --> 01:09:34,093
Speaker 6: My parents used to listen to you on talkback radio.

1048
01:09:34,173 --> 01:09:36,013
Speaker 6: Years ago, and as a kid, I used to roll

1049
01:09:36,053 --> 01:09:38,413
Speaker 6: my eyes and think how stupid and boring it was

1050
01:09:38,493 --> 01:09:41,173
Speaker 6: to listen to talkback. I don't know how many times

1051
01:09:41,213 --> 01:09:45,053
Speaker 6: I heard Layton said. Now I find myself listening to

1052
01:09:45,093 --> 01:09:48,253
Speaker 6: talkback and podcasts all the time. I guess I grew

1053
01:09:48,373 --> 01:09:51,333
Speaker 6: up anyway. Late in your podcast two five seven with

1054
01:09:51,573 --> 01:09:54,613
Speaker 6: mister Paul Merrick mentioned a book that Amazon band and

1055
01:09:54,853 --> 01:09:57,493
Speaker 6: is no longer available. He mentioned that he would send

1056
01:09:57,533 --> 01:10:00,053
Speaker 6: you a PDF of the book, So I'm wondering if

1057
01:10:00,093 --> 01:10:02,213
Speaker 6: I can have a copy of that pdf to read.

1058
01:10:02,653 --> 01:10:06,733
Speaker 6: I'd also like any information on treating COVID short and long.

1059
01:10:06,853 --> 01:10:10,293
Speaker 3: And that's from mel Well. I don't believe he has,

1060
01:10:11,413 --> 01:10:15,333
Speaker 3: but I've got his contact, and there was another reason

1061
01:10:15,413 --> 01:10:18,653
Speaker 3: why he may not have. But I'll see what I

1062
01:10:18,693 --> 01:10:21,653
Speaker 3: can do. Let you know, that's two commitments I've made

1063
01:10:21,653 --> 01:10:22,053
Speaker 3: so fast.

1064
01:10:22,093 --> 01:10:24,253
Speaker 6: I was going to say, if you remember, you need

1065
01:10:24,333 --> 01:10:27,053
Speaker 6: to write down, so you need to make the note.

1066
01:10:27,333 --> 01:10:29,093
Speaker 6: Make the note.

1067
01:10:29,453 --> 01:10:33,293
Speaker 3: I have been disturbed by the mainstream media outright attack

1068
01:10:33,493 --> 01:10:37,893
Speaker 3: and blatant misinformation on RFK the last few days. This

1069
01:10:38,053 --> 01:10:41,573
Speaker 3: article explains the media's complicit behavior and total lack of

1070
01:10:41,573 --> 01:10:46,493
Speaker 3: balance reporting Kennedy is and has been for decades, calling

1071
01:10:46,533 --> 01:10:51,173
Speaker 3: for transparent and actual studies of childhood vaccines in particular,

1072
01:10:51,853 --> 01:10:55,253
Speaker 3: then a list of four points. Number one studies of

1073
01:10:55,373 --> 01:11:00,653
Speaker 3: BAX versus unbacked kids. Second, the same stringent clinical trials

1074
01:11:00,733 --> 01:11:05,813
Speaker 3: as applied to all pharmaceutceutical drugs to be applied to vaccines. Three,

1075
01:11:06,093 --> 01:11:12,573
Speaker 3: the removal of legal indemnity for vaccines I reckon number four,

1076
01:11:13,533 --> 01:11:17,693
Speaker 3: the studies of vaccines versus an actual placebo. Then, in

1077
01:11:17,733 --> 01:11:23,373
Speaker 3: Brackett's the placebo used is either a neurotoxic EG aluminium

1078
01:11:23,453 --> 01:11:27,573
Speaker 3: or another vaccine on the childhood immunization schedule. It would

1079
01:11:27,573 --> 01:11:33,173
Speaker 3: appear these are reasonable requests that surely any parent considering

1080
01:11:33,253 --> 01:11:38,733
Speaker 3: vaccinating their child would want. Instead, all they receive is

1081
01:11:38,813 --> 01:11:43,053
Speaker 3: gaslighting behavior by their gp that all childhood vaccines are

1082
01:11:43,053 --> 01:11:46,573
Speaker 3: safe and effective. The media asks no questions. Worse, they

1083
01:11:46,573 --> 01:11:50,373
Speaker 3: attack anyone who raises concerns. Shame on them. No wonder

1084
01:11:50,413 --> 01:11:53,933
Speaker 3: people are switching off from mainstream media. One can almost

1085
01:11:53,973 --> 01:11:57,493
Speaker 3: smell the death throws of a desperate, captured, paid off

1086
01:11:57,573 --> 01:12:02,453
Speaker 3: media cheers Caroline, Very aggressive, Caroline, But I know there

1087
01:12:02,493 --> 01:12:03,933
Speaker 3: is much sort along those lines.

1088
01:12:04,533 --> 01:12:06,853
Speaker 6: Layton Serlda says, just a quick note to say how

1089
01:12:06,933 --> 01:12:11,613
Speaker 6: much you are appreciated. Full of stimulating interesting subject matter.

1090
01:12:11,893 --> 01:12:14,453
Speaker 6: I especially liked your coverage of Trump as he cleaned

1091
01:12:14,533 --> 01:12:16,293
Speaker 6: up in the election. And that's from Zelda.

1092
01:12:16,533 --> 01:12:22,453
Speaker 3: Zelda well said all from Roger. Roger writes from Sydney.

1093
01:12:22,773 --> 01:12:27,373
Speaker 3: Harker erupts in New Zealand Parliament over controversial bill. Good

1094
01:12:27,413 --> 01:12:29,373
Speaker 3: to see that New Zealand is as batty as ever

1095
01:12:31,693 --> 01:12:34,053
Speaker 3: and by the look of this, Roger is an accountant.

1096
01:12:37,053 --> 01:12:40,933
Speaker 3: Just say, what do you think of this? Bearing in

1097
01:12:41,013 --> 01:12:44,773
Speaker 3: mind the Waitaki Council has recently been found to be

1098
01:12:45,133 --> 01:12:48,893
Speaker 3: overdosing the water supplies there, don't you think an assurance

1099
01:12:48,893 --> 01:12:52,213
Speaker 3: from the Director General of Health would be appropriate? But

1100
01:12:52,293 --> 01:12:55,973
Speaker 3: she won't front up. Surely as a public servant she should.

1101
01:12:56,173 --> 01:13:00,013
Speaker 3: This is a highly toxic chemical and I am extremely

1102
01:13:00,053 --> 01:13:04,053
Speaker 3: concerned that this is going unchecked as overdosing too especially

1103
01:13:04,093 --> 01:13:08,013
Speaker 3: babies and young children is toxic. Can you please investigate this?

1104
01:13:08,053 --> 01:13:11,133
Speaker 3: The US is going to ban this chemical in all

1105
01:13:11,173 --> 01:13:15,373
Speaker 3: their drinking water on the twentieth of January twenty twenty five.

1106
01:13:16,053 --> 01:13:19,293
Speaker 3: Israel banned in twenty fourteen, saying it was dangerous. The

1107
01:13:19,333 --> 01:13:23,893
Speaker 3: warnings on fluoride toothpaste as they do not swallow. So

1108
01:13:23,933 --> 01:13:27,333
Speaker 3: how does the Ministry of Health know everybody is getting

1109
01:13:27,373 --> 01:13:31,213
Speaker 3: the right dosage? Unless they can prove this one hundred percent,

1110
01:13:31,533 --> 01:13:35,133
Speaker 3: they should immediately stop. Strangely, I can't even get a

1111
01:13:35,173 --> 01:13:39,653
Speaker 3: reply from either Shane Ready or Diana Safati on this.

1112
01:13:40,453 --> 01:13:44,573
Speaker 3: Perhaps you can, Linda. What's going to take place in

1113
01:13:44,613 --> 01:13:49,573
Speaker 3: the US I think is yet to be refined. But

1114
01:13:49,693 --> 01:13:54,293
Speaker 3: if they followed this path, then isn't Australia going to

1115
01:13:54,293 --> 01:13:59,773
Speaker 3: do something as well? I think? But I either way, anyway,

1116
01:13:59,933 --> 01:14:02,173
Speaker 3: this needs to be looked at. My mind has been

1117
01:14:02,253 --> 01:14:04,733
Speaker 3: cast back to a period of time when we had

1118
01:14:05,693 --> 01:14:08,973
Speaker 3: the Prime Minister's scientific chief were laying on the law

1119
01:14:09,533 --> 01:14:14,093
Speaker 3: that this wasn't going to change because it's perfectly safe.

1120
01:14:14,253 --> 01:14:17,973
Speaker 3: I've pondered that ever since. To be honest, let me

1121
01:14:18,013 --> 01:14:23,013
Speaker 3: finish with this. One English writer and defender of Western civilization,

1122
01:14:23,093 --> 01:14:26,653
Speaker 3: Douglas Murray, has something to say that is very pertinent

1123
01:14:26,733 --> 01:14:29,573
Speaker 3: to New Zealand and the situation we are in today.

1124
01:14:30,293 --> 01:14:33,253
Speaker 3: He does not hold back. Mister Murray's words give rise

1125
01:14:33,293 --> 01:14:35,813
Speaker 3: to the question why is there no one in New

1126
01:14:35,933 --> 01:14:39,333
Speaker 3: Zealand defending our developed culture with the same kind of

1127
01:14:39,493 --> 01:14:44,173
Speaker 3: zeal The narcissist mister Whititty exercises in his drive to

1128
01:14:44,253 --> 01:14:48,893
Speaker 3: return us to pre European culture. In my humble opinion,

1129
01:14:49,133 --> 01:14:53,293
Speaker 3: Seymour's Treaty Principles Bill is doing something quite minor compared

1130
01:14:53,293 --> 01:14:57,333
Speaker 3: to what really should be done. For just a few examples,

1131
01:14:57,613 --> 01:15:01,093
Speaker 3: the defunding of all government race based departments, the closure

1132
01:15:01,173 --> 01:15:04,453
Speaker 3: of the Waitangi Tribunal, and the removal of taxation concessions

1133
01:15:04,453 --> 01:15:08,733
Speaker 3: for all so called murray enterprises. Mister Whiteitty is welcome

1134
01:15:08,773 --> 01:15:11,093
Speaker 3: to what he perceives as his own culture if he

1135
01:15:11,173 --> 01:15:14,173
Speaker 3: wants it so badly, but he should not be robbing

1136
01:15:14,213 --> 01:15:17,933
Speaker 3: every other New Zealander in pursuit of that objective. Neither

1137
01:15:17,973 --> 01:15:20,973
Speaker 3: should he be making a mockery of our Parliament. There

1138
01:15:21,013 --> 01:15:26,813
Speaker 3: should be far greater sanctions applied for his barbaric behavior

1139
01:15:27,413 --> 01:15:30,053
Speaker 3: this week. Now, that brings us to the end of

1140
01:15:30,093 --> 01:15:34,373
Speaker 3: the mail room. But I have reserved a commentary for

1141
01:15:34,773 --> 01:15:39,133
Speaker 3: following up immediately, well very shortly, that I wanted to

1142
01:15:39,453 --> 01:15:41,733
Speaker 3: spend a little time on, So I'm not including it

1143
01:15:41,733 --> 01:15:43,693
Speaker 3: in the mailroom because missus producers got things to do,

1144
01:15:44,853 --> 01:15:47,293
Speaker 3: no late, and I love being here, but you still

1145
01:15:47,333 --> 01:15:49,693
Speaker 3: have things to do. I got a lot of driving

1146
01:15:49,773 --> 01:15:53,773
Speaker 3: to do. Yes, I do so, thank you. We shall

1147
01:15:53,813 --> 01:15:54,733
Speaker 3: see you next.

1148
01:15:54,573 --> 01:15:57,053
Speaker 6: Week lovely, Thanks later and look forward to him.

1149
01:16:11,133 --> 01:16:14,813
Speaker 3: Now here's the letter that I said i'd read after

1150
01:16:14,893 --> 01:16:18,533
Speaker 3: the mail room, and I think you'll note for appropriate reasons.

1151
01:16:18,733 --> 01:16:21,333
Speaker 3: But before I do, I just want to make reference

1152
01:16:21,373 --> 01:16:25,373
Speaker 3: to Matt Walsh, who is well it's going to be

1153
01:16:25,413 --> 01:16:28,653
Speaker 3: explained in a moment, but I've seen the video. I

1154
01:16:28,693 --> 01:16:32,213
Speaker 3: saw it before the before the letter arrived, and I

1155
01:16:32,253 --> 01:16:34,053
Speaker 3: was going to include it, and then I thought, well,

1156
01:16:34,133 --> 01:16:39,093
Speaker 3: let's do both together. So here is the letter American

1157
01:16:39,093 --> 01:16:42,853
Speaker 3: political commentator Matt Walsh dedicated nearly twenty two minutes of

1158
01:16:42,893 --> 01:16:46,133
Speaker 3: his recent podcast to New Zealand. When the famous star

1159
01:16:46,253 --> 01:16:49,813
Speaker 3: of What Is a Woman? And Am I Racist? Dedicates

1160
01:16:49,933 --> 01:16:53,613
Speaker 3: nearly one third of his entire podcast to New Zealand politics,

1161
01:16:54,173 --> 01:16:56,613
Speaker 3: you can be sure that New Zealand has either done

1162
01:16:56,653 --> 01:17:01,333
Speaker 3: something extraordinarily good or in this case, catastrophically bad. In

1163
01:17:01,413 --> 01:17:06,613
Speaker 3: his podcast, Matt Lambastard, the Teparti Mariri, the Marry Party

1164
01:17:06,653 --> 01:17:11,173
Speaker 3: inmates who turned out Parliament into a political asylum. The

1165
01:17:11,213 --> 01:17:15,053
Speaker 3: caption on his YouTube video says Parliament in New Zealand

1166
01:17:15,253 --> 01:17:19,293
Speaker 3: descended into tribal stone age grunting on behalf of so

1167
01:17:19,453 --> 01:17:22,973
Speaker 3: called indigenous rites. This is a preview of what our

1168
01:17:23,013 --> 01:17:26,933
Speaker 3: country could look like if we keep apologizing for our history.

1169
01:17:27,333 --> 01:17:31,693
Speaker 3: What a shameful indictment of the state of New Zealand politics. Furthermore,

1170
01:17:32,293 --> 01:17:35,493
Speaker 3: local YouTuber Fonga Ray Tim never heard of him, but

1171
01:17:36,093 --> 01:17:40,973
Speaker 3: now you have had a funnier caption saying New Zealand's

1172
01:17:40,973 --> 01:17:45,413
Speaker 3: low IQ special needs primitive MPs perform a Marie Harker

1173
01:17:45,493 --> 01:17:48,933
Speaker 3: war dance when they don't like the vote. Close quote

1174
01:17:49,133 --> 01:17:53,013
Speaker 3: that young to Party Mary MP, who violently tore Act's

1175
01:17:53,093 --> 01:17:57,293
Speaker 3: Treaty Principle's Bill in Parliament and started the Harker in

1176
01:17:57,453 --> 01:18:02,253
Speaker 3: defiance of the Speaker should be fired, jailed and rehabilitated,

1177
01:18:03,053 --> 01:18:07,733
Speaker 3: or maybe just jailed. She is categorically unfit to be

1178
01:18:07,933 --> 01:18:13,813
Speaker 3: an Why the majority so silent on these parliament terrorists?

1179
01:18:13,853 --> 01:18:17,253
Speaker 3: In the recent Free Speech Union agm held in Auckland,

1180
01:18:17,653 --> 01:18:22,493
Speaker 3: Professor Nigel Bigar suggested that the problem lies with a

1181
01:18:22,613 --> 01:18:26,813
Speaker 3: mild risk averse majority who often wants to keep out

1182
01:18:26,853 --> 01:18:30,773
Speaker 3: of trouble. As a result, they inadvertently allowed the aggressive

1183
01:18:30,853 --> 01:18:34,893
Speaker 3: noise of the minority to intimidate the majority. In this case,

1184
01:18:35,133 --> 01:18:37,773
Speaker 3: says the author, I believe the majority of New Zealanders,

1185
01:18:37,893 --> 01:18:42,773
Speaker 3: especially white New Zealanders, have been conditioned to self censor

1186
01:18:43,493 --> 01:18:46,893
Speaker 3: on all matters pertaining to Mary, for fear of being

1187
01:18:47,253 --> 01:18:52,773
Speaker 3: labeled racist by actual racists like Willie Jackson. Well, for once,

1188
01:18:53,173 --> 01:18:55,653
Speaker 3: I hope whatever is happening in America will happen in

1189
01:18:55,693 --> 01:19:00,133
Speaker 3: New Zealand, because we too need to fight, fight, fight.

1190
01:19:02,213 --> 01:19:05,373
Speaker 3: It was slightly more aggressive than I read, and to

1191
01:19:05,373 --> 01:19:09,653
Speaker 3: be honest, so I self sent a little bit now

1192
01:19:09,693 --> 01:19:13,373
Speaker 3: to respond to Linn's letter and be put it this way.

1193
01:19:13,973 --> 01:19:17,813
Speaker 3: The detritus there was witnessed in part of it last week.

1194
01:19:18,213 --> 01:19:21,453
Speaker 3: It has a source. It goes back a long way.

1195
01:19:22,373 --> 01:19:25,293
Speaker 3: It's the result of a great deal of cowardice, or

1196
01:19:25,333 --> 01:19:28,653
Speaker 3: if you prefer, an unwillingness on the part of governments

1197
01:19:29,413 --> 01:19:32,973
Speaker 3: on both sides of the aisle to take action, to

1198
01:19:33,053 --> 01:19:36,893
Speaker 3: take firm action to resolve issues, and well as the

1199
01:19:36,973 --> 01:19:40,573
Speaker 3: saying goes, kick the can down the road. It falls

1200
01:19:40,573 --> 01:19:45,933
Speaker 3: into a similar category as printing dollars, printing money the

1201
01:19:46,013 --> 01:19:52,013
Speaker 3: future generations paid for, and the most recent labor administration

1202
01:19:52,413 --> 01:19:54,853
Speaker 3: has shown us how to do that big time and

1203
01:19:54,973 --> 01:19:59,413
Speaker 3: screw the country now I've made reference. Oh Now, if

1204
01:19:59,413 --> 01:20:03,893
Speaker 3: you want to get the Matt Welsh piece the video,

1205
01:20:04,973 --> 01:20:08,293
Speaker 3: just do a search on Matt Walsh's en Z clip

1206
01:20:08,613 --> 01:20:13,733
Speaker 3: Matt Walsh's end z clip and you will find it. Now.

1207
01:20:14,493 --> 01:20:19,853
Speaker 3: I've made reference recently to Robert McCulloch from Auckland University,

1208
01:20:20,173 --> 01:20:25,413
Speaker 3: professor of economics, and part of the reason was because

1209
01:20:25,453 --> 01:20:28,133
Speaker 3: I discovered him and he was writing for his own

1210
01:20:28,133 --> 01:20:33,053
Speaker 3: blog and I really liked what he said, except did

1211
01:20:33,093 --> 01:20:35,973
Speaker 3: I say it again, it's got an overrider that he's

1212
01:20:36,013 --> 01:20:39,173
Speaker 3: had to go with a couple of people who who

1213
01:20:39,253 --> 01:20:45,613
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with, put me in a precarious position. However,

1214
01:20:46,133 --> 01:20:49,733
Speaker 3: on the seventeenth of November he wrote the following, Now

1215
01:20:49,773 --> 01:20:53,653
Speaker 3: we know how New Zealand's economy became broken. The Judiciary

1216
01:20:53,813 --> 01:21:00,253
Speaker 3: wrote a communist style constitution without consultation, without people knowing.

1217
01:21:01,493 --> 01:21:04,853
Speaker 3: The treaty debate is great. We've just found out, courtesy

1218
01:21:04,853 --> 01:21:09,053
Speaker 3: about King's Councils, what has broken the economic of this nation.

1219
01:21:09,933 --> 01:21:12,573
Speaker 3: It has only just been revealed, thanks to their letter

1220
01:21:12,693 --> 01:21:16,813
Speaker 3: to the PM, that the Judiciary invented their own set

1221
01:21:16,853 --> 01:21:20,413
Speaker 3: of treaty principles, the main one of interests to economists

1222
01:21:20,453 --> 01:21:25,333
Speaker 3: being the requirement of equitable outcomes, which are our fully

1223
01:21:25,333 --> 01:21:28,933
Speaker 3: part of our constitution, so much so that the councils

1224
01:21:29,013 --> 01:21:34,253
Speaker 3: call them settled constitutional law, unable to be adjusted by Parliament,

1225
01:21:34,573 --> 01:21:38,293
Speaker 3: let alone upstarts like Acts Seymour and the likes of

1226
01:21:38,333 --> 01:21:41,573
Speaker 3: whom they swat by referring to as being part of

1227
01:21:41,613 --> 01:21:44,933
Speaker 3: the government of the day. It's sort of a throwaway

1228
01:21:45,013 --> 01:21:47,733
Speaker 3: and part of the government of the day. According to

1229
01:21:47,853 --> 01:21:52,493
Speaker 3: the lawyers, we the little people, just vote for day

1230
01:21:52,533 --> 01:21:58,573
Speaker 3: to day administrators, whereas the profound, unalterable constitutional principles governing

1231
01:21:58,653 --> 01:22:02,533
Speaker 3: us in an enduring sense are written by people with

1232
01:22:03,093 --> 01:22:07,413
Speaker 3: bigger minds, our judges. Most of us have heard about

1233
01:22:07,413 --> 01:22:11,253
Speaker 3: the principles before, but until the treaty debate was opened recently,

1234
01:22:11,973 --> 01:22:15,133
Speaker 3: we had no idea that they were so embedded into

1235
01:22:15,133 --> 01:22:22,053
Speaker 3: our constitutional arrangements. Many countries have affirmative action programs. However,

1236
01:22:22,333 --> 01:22:25,613
Speaker 3: I know of no country, he writes, no country that

1237
01:22:25,733 --> 01:22:32,493
Speaker 3: has a constitutional requirement of outcomes not opportunities being equalized

1238
01:22:32,533 --> 01:22:36,093
Speaker 3: amongst the citizenry, other than maybe a few commoner states

1239
01:22:36,133 --> 01:22:40,413
Speaker 3: that failed and no longer exist. The reasons are obvious

1240
01:22:40,573 --> 01:22:44,413
Speaker 3: to economists, but not to our judiciary. Now that's only

1241
01:22:44,853 --> 01:22:48,813
Speaker 3: a little that's half of it. Maybe because he doesn't

1242
01:22:48,813 --> 01:22:51,853
Speaker 3: write long pieces, which makes it much easier to punch

1243
01:22:51,893 --> 01:22:55,973
Speaker 3: through more of them. I suggest you have a look

1244
01:22:56,013 --> 01:22:59,173
Speaker 3: at it, and you want to know how to get it. McCulloch,

1245
01:22:59,613 --> 01:23:06,093
Speaker 3: Robert McCulloch m a double CUBLC and you'll come across

1246
01:23:06,133 --> 01:23:10,573
Speaker 3: his lot. It's worth it's worth keeping in touch with now.

1247
01:23:10,613 --> 01:23:16,093
Speaker 3: Another thing I mentioned was AI and democracy because we

1248
01:23:16,213 --> 01:23:18,293
Speaker 3: discussed AI at the end of the interview that we

1249
01:23:18,413 --> 01:23:23,693
Speaker 3: had with Michael Johnson. And this is an alternative approach.

1250
01:23:23,973 --> 01:23:29,413
Speaker 3: Shall we say how AI threatens democracy? The explosive rise

1251
01:23:29,453 --> 01:23:34,533
Speaker 3: of generative AI is already transforming journalism, finance, and medicine,

1252
01:23:34,733 --> 01:23:37,453
Speaker 3: but it could also have a disruptive influence on politics.

1253
01:23:37,813 --> 01:23:41,733
Speaker 3: For example, asking a chatbot how to navigate a complicated

1254
01:23:41,733 --> 01:23:45,853
Speaker 3: bureaucracy or to help draft a letter to an elected

1255
01:23:45,893 --> 01:23:51,253
Speaker 3: official could bolster civic engagement. However, that same technology, with

1256
01:23:51,373 --> 01:23:56,733
Speaker 3: its potential to produce disinformation and misinformation at scale, threatens

1257
01:23:56,773 --> 01:24:02,413
Speaker 3: to interfere with democratic representation, undermine democratic accountability, and corrode

1258
01:24:02,653 --> 01:24:05,693
Speaker 3: social and political trust. Like we need more of it.

1259
01:24:06,173 --> 01:24:09,573
Speaker 3: This essay analyzes the scope of the threat in each

1260
01:24:09,613 --> 01:24:14,293
Speaker 3: of these spheres, and discusses potential guardrails for these misuses,

1261
01:24:14,573 --> 01:24:20,653
Speaker 3: including neural networks used to identify generated content, self regulation

1262
01:24:20,933 --> 01:24:25,933
Speaker 3: by generative AI platforms, and greater digital literacy on the

1263
01:24:25,973 --> 01:24:29,013
Speaker 3: part of the public and elites alike. Just a month

1264
01:24:29,053 --> 01:24:34,853
Speaker 3: after its introduction, a chat GPT, the generative artificial intelligence

1265
01:24:35,413 --> 01:24:39,973
Speaker 3: AI chat bon hit one hundred million monthly users, making

1266
01:24:39,973 --> 01:24:43,613
Speaker 3: it the fastest growing application in history. For context, it

1267
01:24:43,653 --> 01:24:47,653
Speaker 3: took the video streaming service Netflix, now a household name,

1268
01:24:48,293 --> 01:24:51,613
Speaker 3: three and a half years to reach one million monthly users.

1269
01:24:51,853 --> 01:24:56,893
Speaker 3: But unlike Netflix, the meteoric rise of chat GPT and

1270
01:24:57,093 --> 01:25:01,493
Speaker 3: its potential for good or ill spark considerable debate. Would

1271
01:25:01,493 --> 01:25:04,013
Speaker 3: students be able to use or other misuse the tool

1272
01:25:04,053 --> 01:25:07,573
Speaker 3: for researching or writing? Would it put journalists and coders

1273
01:25:07,653 --> 01:25:11,573
Speaker 3: out of business? What it's hijacked democracy? As one New

1274
01:25:11,653 --> 01:25:15,093
Speaker 3: York Times up head put it by enabling mass phony

1275
01:25:15,173 --> 01:25:23,213
Speaker 3: inputs to perhaps influence democratic representation. And most fundamentally or apocalyptically,

1276
01:25:23,973 --> 01:25:29,333
Speaker 3: could advances in artificial intelligence actually pose an existential threat

1277
01:25:29,373 --> 01:25:32,053
Speaker 3: to humanity? And these are things I had in mind

1278
01:25:32,093 --> 01:25:37,533
Speaker 3: when I will raise it with Michael. If you want

1279
01:25:37,533 --> 01:25:43,453
Speaker 3: to read the entire discussion. Search how AI Threatens Democracy?

1280
01:25:43,693 --> 01:25:48,453
Speaker 3: Simple How AI Threatens Democracy got two authors. Sarah Krepps

1281
01:25:48,653 --> 01:25:54,573
Speaker 3: is a professor in the Department of Government, adjunct Professor

1282
01:25:54,613 --> 01:25:58,173
Speaker 3: of Law, and the director of the Tech Policy Institute

1283
01:25:58,213 --> 01:26:04,253
Speaker 3: at Cornell University. Doug Kriner, the second author is the

1284
01:26:04,253 --> 01:26:09,013
Speaker 3: Clinton Rossiter, Professor of American Institute in American Instituts in

1285
01:26:09,053 --> 01:26:11,533
Speaker 3: the Department of Government at Cornell University. So the both

1286
01:26:11,573 --> 01:26:15,773
Speaker 3: at Cornell. George Freeman dot his degree at Cornell. I'm

1287
01:26:15,853 --> 01:26:19,253
Speaker 3: just throwing for interest. Take now, there is one other

1288
01:26:19,493 --> 01:26:22,133
Speaker 3: thing that I want to mention. I raised the subject

1289
01:26:22,133 --> 01:26:27,413
Speaker 3: of the who again with Michael, and there were parts

1290
01:26:27,453 --> 01:26:30,373
Speaker 3: of it that I wanted to dive into, but I

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01:26:30,493 --> 01:26:36,893
Speaker 3: left them out until now because they're sensitive to some people.

1292
01:26:37,333 --> 01:26:40,253
Speaker 3: But after all, we're all adults and we can or

1293
01:26:40,293 --> 01:26:43,933
Speaker 3: should be able to cope with such things. Look Who's

1294
01:26:43,973 --> 01:26:48,013
Speaker 3: in the Classroom? Written by Hugh McCarthy. Now you'll find it,

1295
01:26:48,133 --> 01:26:50,213
Speaker 3: I think I might have mentioned you'll find it on

1296
01:26:50,293 --> 01:26:55,493
Speaker 3: Brownstone Institute. Here's Hugh McCarthy's a bio. He retired as

1297
01:26:55,533 --> 01:26:58,173
Speaker 3: a head teacher after twenty three years in that role.

1298
01:26:58,653 --> 01:27:01,653
Speaker 3: He also lectured in a postgraduate leadership course at the

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01:27:01,693 --> 01:27:05,333
Speaker 3: University of Ulster. Hugh has served as a director of

1300
01:27:05,533 --> 01:27:10,133
Speaker 3: two of Northern Ireland's major educational and currently serves as

1301
01:27:10,173 --> 01:27:13,853
Speaker 3: a ministerial appointment on one. He has fifty years of

1302
01:27:13,933 --> 01:27:17,573
Speaker 3: experience in education. He lives just outside Belfast, married to

1303
01:27:17,613 --> 01:27:22,533
Speaker 3: Lorraine and made all this but nevertheless and has three sons.

1304
01:27:22,933 --> 01:27:27,093
Speaker 3: Hugh holds a master's degree in distinction in education financial

1305
01:27:27,173 --> 01:27:31,613
Speaker 3: management and an honors degree in chemistry at a BA

1306
01:27:31,773 --> 01:27:36,493
Speaker 3: in public administration over educated if anything now in reference

1307
01:27:36,573 --> 01:27:42,173
Speaker 3: to the WHO at its interference in education in the

1308
01:27:42,213 --> 01:27:45,133
Speaker 3: next section zo page four. In the next section, the

1309
01:27:45,173 --> 01:27:50,533
Speaker 3: who's approach to sexuality education is discussed. It is summed

1310
01:27:50,613 --> 01:27:54,213
Speaker 3: up by the statement a child is understood to be

1311
01:27:54,253 --> 01:27:57,053
Speaker 3: a sexual being from the beginning. The basis for this

1312
01:27:57,173 --> 01:28:02,213
Speaker 3: is explained in the section entitled Psychosexual Development of Children

1313
01:28:02,613 --> 01:28:08,333
Speaker 3: and argues the need for an early start to sexuality education. Psychologies,

1314
01:28:08,733 --> 01:28:12,893
Speaker 3: especially developmental psychology, they claim, purports to show that children

1315
01:28:12,933 --> 01:28:18,413
Speaker 3: are born as sexual beings, whatever that means. This approach

1316
01:28:18,653 --> 01:28:22,733
Speaker 3: is then transferred into education school and the classroom via

1317
01:28:22,773 --> 01:28:27,253
Speaker 3: the guidelines offered to teachers. Now where it gets sensitive,

1318
01:28:27,413 --> 01:28:30,333
Speaker 3: but I'm going to include it because I think it's important.

1319
01:28:30,493 --> 01:28:35,173
Speaker 3: The guidance given for ages six to nine recommends a

1320
01:28:35,213 --> 01:28:40,053
Speaker 3: curriculum content which includes six to nine, remember sexual intercourse,

1321
01:28:41,053 --> 01:28:46,173
Speaker 3: gender orientation and sexual behavior of young people, enjoyment and

1322
01:28:46,213 --> 01:28:50,573
Speaker 3: pleasure when touching one's own body, masturbation, self stimulation, orgasm.

1323
01:28:51,653 --> 01:28:55,773
Speaker 3: Then from nine to twelve, the curriculum content includes how

1324
01:28:55,813 --> 01:29:00,173
Speaker 3: to enjoy sexuality in an appropriate way, first sexual experience

1325
01:29:00,613 --> 01:29:04,173
Speaker 3: and then covers off the pleasure, masturbation and orgasm just

1326
01:29:04,213 --> 01:29:09,093
Speaker 3: for good measure now. Whilst in the International TechEd Guidance,

1327
01:29:09,133 --> 01:29:13,133
Speaker 3: the learning objective for five to eight year olds state

1328
01:29:13,333 --> 01:29:17,373
Speaker 3: that learners will be able to identify the critical parts

1329
01:29:17,453 --> 01:29:22,093
Speaker 3: of the internal and external genitals and describe their basic function,

1330
01:29:23,093 --> 01:29:25,813
Speaker 3: and from night to twelve year old learners they'll be

1331
01:29:25,893 --> 01:29:33,493
Speaker 3: able to describe what sexually explicit media, pornography and sexting are,

1332
01:29:34,893 --> 01:29:39,653
Speaker 3: and male and female responses to sexual stimulation. Knowledge in

1333
01:29:39,693 --> 01:29:43,693
Speaker 3: brackets explain that many boys and girls begin to masturbate

1334
01:29:43,773 --> 01:29:47,613
Speaker 3: during puberty or sometimes earlier, comes under the heading of knowledge. Again,

1335
01:29:47,973 --> 01:29:51,133
Speaker 3: the guidance also refers to teaching the material in an

1336
01:29:51,213 --> 01:29:54,093
Speaker 3: interactive way. I am at a loss, he writes, to

1337
01:29:54,173 --> 01:29:57,213
Speaker 3: know how this can be done without graphic images and

1338
01:29:57,293 --> 01:30:02,453
Speaker 3: the lead discussion taking place. It clearly establishes a culture

1339
01:30:02,813 --> 01:30:05,133
Speaker 3: and sets out a norm for what is acceptable to

1340
01:30:05,213 --> 01:30:08,693
Speaker 3: teach young children, and the guidance goes further. It also

1341
01:30:08,773 --> 01:30:14,373
Speaker 3: provides detailed guidance for the teaching of RSC. So what

1342
01:30:14,493 --> 01:30:21,533
Speaker 3: is RSC RS is relationship and sexuality education. Now I

1343
01:30:21,573 --> 01:30:26,093
Speaker 3: shall now just refer to his conclusion. Well, actually maybe

1344
01:30:26,093 --> 01:30:29,013
Speaker 3: I won't because fairly long, but the beginning of it.

1345
01:30:29,013 --> 01:30:31,453
Speaker 3: It is right that schools pass on broad moral and

1346
01:30:31,493 --> 01:30:35,493
Speaker 3: spiritual values. These values will include respect, tolerance, and caring

1347
01:30:35,533 --> 01:30:38,933
Speaker 3: for others. It seems to me, however, that the RSSE

1348
01:30:39,293 --> 01:30:43,653
Speaker 3: issue appears to be the driving culture in some schools

1349
01:30:43,933 --> 01:30:48,773
Speaker 3: to the marginalization of more vital components to the roles

1350
01:30:48,813 --> 01:30:51,573
Speaker 3: of schools. Children are being forced to accept this culture

1351
01:30:51,573 --> 01:30:54,733
Speaker 3: which surrounds the actions of the school. Much guidance from

1352
01:30:54,813 --> 01:30:58,293
Speaker 3: the authority speaks of promoting the culture. This is far

1353
01:30:58,373 --> 01:31:02,013
Speaker 3: removed from providing information. And there's quite a bit more.

1354
01:31:03,053 --> 01:31:05,973
Speaker 3: This is the who now. By the way, if you think,

1355
01:31:06,413 --> 01:31:11,733
Speaker 3: if you're thinking, doesn't happen here, you're deluding yourself sadly,

1356
01:31:12,933 --> 01:31:16,173
Speaker 3: or maybe just not in a possession of information. I

1357
01:31:16,253 --> 01:31:22,013
Speaker 3: dealt with this briefly, fairly recently with a high profile

1358
01:31:22,093 --> 01:31:25,933
Speaker 3: school in this country, a high school, high profile school

1359
01:31:27,293 --> 01:31:31,573
Speaker 3: of the private nature, when I had communication from parents

1360
01:31:31,973 --> 01:31:34,853
Speaker 3: and they were disgusted and they were basically told to

1361
01:31:34,893 --> 01:31:39,133
Speaker 3: bugger off. And on that unsavory note, I will say

1362
01:31:39,613 --> 01:31:42,053
Speaker 3: if you would like to write to us latent at

1363
01:31:42,053 --> 01:31:45,413
Speaker 3: newstalks ab dot co dot nzid or Carolyn news Talks

1364
01:31:45,413 --> 01:31:48,893
Speaker 3: of dot co dot nz. We shall return in a

1365
01:31:48,933 --> 01:31:52,253
Speaker 3: few days as always with podcast number two hundred and

1366
01:31:52,893 --> 01:31:58,173
Speaker 3: sixty seven. Until then, thank you for listening and we'll

1367
01:31:58,173 --> 01:31:58,653
Speaker 3: talk soon.

1368
01:32:06,413 --> 01:32:09,453
Speaker 1: Thank you for more or from News Talk set B.

1369
01:32:09,733 --> 01:32:12,973
Speaker 1: Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows

1370
01:32:13,013 --> 01:32:16,333
Speaker 1: with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio