1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: The Public Service Association is taking legal action to stop 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: the government's new working from home rules. It's filed acclaimed 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: with the Employment Relations Authority, arguing the director violates its 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: agreement with the government. Acting National Secretary of the Public 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Service Association as Flirth that Simons she's with me this evening, 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: flurgred gave a good afternoon. 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: I should say good afternoon. 8 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: So we're in your agreement. Does it guarantee working from home? 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: Well, in a number of employment agreements there is reference 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: to flexible working, including working from home. And actually the 11 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: union movement and the employer, through the Public Service Commission, 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: agreed to a series of principles called the Gender Pay Principles, 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: and one of them is that agencies normalize flexible and 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: part time working arrangements for all employees. So our concern 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: really is that the government recent government directive has failed 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: to take into account the commitments under the Gender Pay 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: Principles and those in a number of employment agreements. 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: What is working from home got to do with whether 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: you're a woman or a man. 20 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: Well, and it does affect everybody. But this was done 21 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: in the context of recognizing that women predominantly take on 22 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: more caring responsibilities. But look, it will also impact people 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: with chronic health conditions, people with disabilities, and in the end, 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: it could be good for everybody if we managed to 25 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: tune around this government directive. 26 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: But you're hanging this this legal challenge. You're hanging this 27 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: on the gender issue, and you know, basically saying that 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: without working for home, you're discriminating against women. 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and that's because the government committed to 30 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: addressing the gender pay gap that exists in the public 31 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: service agencies. And one of the ways it committed to 32 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: doing that is by making sure that workplaces reflect what 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: the needs of women. And it's actually a legal requirement 34 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: on them anyway. 35 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean men, what are you saying men 36 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: don't look after their kids? 37 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, And this I. 38 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: Say so men look after their kids, Women look after 39 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: their kids. Just I mean, I guess the point is, 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: does work not discriminate against everyone? I mean, many people 41 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: would like to be other places doing other things, but 42 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: the reality is, if you want to be paid and 43 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: you want to have a job, you've got to be 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: at work. 45 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: Well. The great thing about our litigation is that if 46 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: we are successful, it will apply to men and women 47 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: and It will mean that people who have the ability 48 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: to work from home and work flexibly and can do 49 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: that in a way that enhances their ability to do 50 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: their job and that works for them, will be able 51 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: to do this. So, yes, we're advancing it because of 52 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: a gender pay princi. Well that's our legal argument, but 53 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: actually any outcome if we're successful, will apply to everyone, 54 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: and that's good news for all workers. All right. 55 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: For do you know what the legal costs will be 56 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: for your members? 57 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: We're not anticipating it will be high. We're hoping that 58 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: we will be able to settle this dispute with Takua 59 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: matah or the Public Service Commission and move on and 60 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: really make sure that people can keep using the flexible 61 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: working provisions they have, which we know work for employers 62 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: and for weeks people. 63 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: All right, thank you very much for your time. For 64 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: great to have you on the show that it's the 65 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: acting National Secretary of the PSA Flurthit Simons. For more 66 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks 67 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: it'd B from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 68 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.