WEBVTT - Public sector mega strike: up to 100,000 health and education workers walk out 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:05.920 Kielder. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.160 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:16.240 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Up to 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:21.680 one hundred thousand union members across health and education are 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:26.759 on strike today. The action prompted Public Service Minister Judith 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.720 Collins to pen a letter to New Zealanders saying the 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.839 strikes are more about politics than outcomes. The mega strike 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.040 is being tipped to be the largest in our history. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.440 So as nurses, doctors and teachers take to the picket line, 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.760 we'll take a look back at industrial action in Altieroa 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.159 and whether it's all actually worth it. Today on the 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.320 Front Page, Victoria University of Wellington Emeritus Professor Gordon Anderson 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.640 is with us to discuss the history of labor laws 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:09.840 in New Zealand. Gordon, what's happening this week is being 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.600 called historic, would you agree? 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:18.640 Semi historic and probably historical within the living memory of 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.759 anyone who's around these days. I mean the last massive strike, 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.440 of course, which we know for a long time, was 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.600 the nineteen fifty one Waterfront locker, and we had quite 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:32.960 high strike levels in the mid nineteen seventies, but since 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.360 then strike numbers have been relatively those upp but in 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.120 the eighties, but since nineteen ninety extremely low levels until 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:43.560 the last couple of years. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.720 Well, I was going to say, the last couple of years, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.440 it does feel like there have been a lot more 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.920 strikes than are quote usual I suppose, is that right? 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.280 Yes, I mean they sort of come and go. The 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.040 main difference courses that the strikes these days tend to 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.000 be in the public sector because the unions that used 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.040 to go on stroke don't really exist anymore. So you know, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.600 the classical unions that used to go on strike with 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.720 the meat works, some of the transport industry, the wharfs, 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:21.160 seafair is, those sort of people. But those unions, of 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.440 course have largely disappeared as that type of work disappeared. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.519 So the big unions these days, well otherwise were the 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.960 big unions they used to strike us off there the 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.160 big public sector unions. So the only large unions left 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.480 the museum, with the exception of ED, which of course 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.640 is very widespread, but the only large unions with a 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.160 single employer tend to be the state sector unions. And 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.280 it's only lawful to strike when you're striking in relation 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.680 to collective bargaining. So if you're likely to have large 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.320 numbers of strikes and they have to relate to collective 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.840 bargaining obviously going to be connective bargaining in the state sector. 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:04.920 Who were the only big employers. 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.480 Is that something that's changed over time? I mean, how 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.600 has the law evolved to become the Employment Act that 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:13.640 we see today? 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.720 In very broad terms. You weren't supposed to go on 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.280 strike at all until about nineteen eighty seven. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:22.840 Wow, that's quite late. 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:30.320 However, that didn't stop people doing it, right, and there 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:35.440 was a sort of period from about the early nineteen 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:39.880 seventies onwards when strikes were quite common. You had a 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.480 rather strange position there when they weren't unlawful under the Act, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.400 that they were unlawful at common law. In the main, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.920 everyone just ignored the common law. However, in nineteen eighty 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.640 seven there was a specific statute or definition of a 0:03:54.720 --> 0:04:00.600 lawful and unlawful strike put into the legislation that's been 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.160 there ever since. So really only after that time that 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.200 the legality of the strike has been a major issue, 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.920 and that was narrowed a little bit in nineteen ninety 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.880 one so that you can only strike in relation to 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.000 bargaining for a connective agreement that's going to cover you, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.600 and that's still the current law. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.359 Does that still kind of stand up today or should 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.760 there be any more changes to labor laws? In your opinion, it. 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.200 Seems to have worked relatively well up until now. I mean, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.560 if you ask the union, as they would claim those 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.720 the current restriction is too narrow because it stops sympathy strikes. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.919 On the other hand, there is some compensation for that 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.760 and the ability of employers to use replacement labor during 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.880 a strike, So there's a balance. That's not a balance 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.840 everyone would perhaps wholly agree with, but it's not totally 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:54.880 unreasonable either. 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.160 What are sympathy strikes? 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.800 Oh, it's if I go on strike to support you, 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.520 not refusing to finish the. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:08.360 Podcast turns up in solidarity. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:10.320 Yeah, in solidarity. 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.680 Yeah, no worry about that happening. We'll get this done, Gordon. 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:20.640 Recent reforms have seen things like pay deductions for partial strikes. 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.640 What does that suggest about the current government's approach to 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:25.920 industrial action? 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.400 Which bit of the current government you ask, I suspect? 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.599 I mean, the current Minister for Workplace Relations is obviously 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:41.360 not exactly pro worker. If I can be polite and. 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:42.560 You don't have to be polite here. 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.040 Yeah, I'm sure there are elements within the government who'd 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.480 be be quite happy to further restrict the ability to strike. 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.200 As long as you've got it, as long as people 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.240 are doing collective bargaining, there's not really a problem that. 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.440 The problem you have with the state sector of course, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.000 that they should actually be doing the bargaining because the 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.760 centu of course, this is bargaining between an employer and employees. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.320 And what's happening is a very strong political element is 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:17.080 creeping and the more politicians are involved that probably the 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:22.279 more politically it gets. Rather than trying to resolve particular 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.159 industrial disputes. So I mean, if we were dealing with 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:30.040 private sector employers, the focus would be probably very much 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.280 stronger on how do we settle this dispute? You know, 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.599 how far are we prepared to go to increase paints on? 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.640 And of course, yeah, the government's thinking of it, and 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.200 I suspect in a wider terms and particularly is there 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.040 at a period of austerity of that sort of thing, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.239 So that whole political side of course is coming into 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:55.680 it and complicating the negotiations which would normally be resolved 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:00.119 at least at a slighter distance I think from ministers 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.920 at the moment that all the comments are coming from 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.640 minister's who, of course should be a step back from 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:07.800 employment negotiations. 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.640 Does the law as it stands have a good balance 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:17.280 between a worker's right to strike versus minimizing disruption to 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:18.360 public services? 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:24.080 Say, pretty much Employment Relations Act. There's a whole chunk 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:29.680 in it on strikes, particularly in the health sector, and 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.840 there is an obligation there to maintain the basic operations 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.520 of the health sector. So while some routine surgery may 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:38.960 not be able to be done, you know, if you 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.200 decide they have a heart attack today, you can still 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.280 be assured that the appropriate services will be available to 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:51.040 deal with that, and there is a mechanism for sorting 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:55.080 that out of there's a disagreement between what the hospitals 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.040 think the level of services should be and what the 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:02.040 unions do, and that's usually fairly carefully observedly. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:07.680 O Loik. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.440 This is a really important moment for New Zealanders to 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.040 stand up and say we want better funded healthcare systems, 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.360 better funded schools. And the reason for that is that 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.640 we all need access to these services and we don't 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:23.280 want to turn up to hospital and find there aren't 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.440 enough nurses because they've all left to go to Australia 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.840 for higher wages. We need to make sure we keep 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.160 nurses in New Zealand, teachers in New Zealand. So I 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.560 think it is really important for the whole country to 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.959 stand up now and say we want our hospitals, our 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.000 schools funded properly. Government is up to you to find 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.120 the money and make sure they are funded properly. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.560 How important is a worker's right to strike. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.080 Extremely because in the absence of it, you're stuck with 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.720 taking whatever the boss offers that you can't really do 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.400 anything else. I mean, obviously, I suppose you can resign 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.800 from the job and walk away from it, but then 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.360 you go to another job that we're in the same position. 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.400 So the strike the right to strikes are essential to 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.320 any form of workers being able to improve their conditions 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.960 of employment. And of course you have to remember that 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.200 in the absence of a right to strike, it's usually 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:24.320 individuals negotiating with large companies or something like that. So 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.240 the economic leverage each has got us quite different. So 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.360 collective bargaining probably doesn't what definitely doesn't totally rebalance things, 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:38.720 but it does give some degree of ability to try 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.240 and negotiate better terms and conditions. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.760 Do you think it's still useful as a bargaining tool. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.080 Yes, workers don't usually go on strike in spite of 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.120 what people seem to think at the drop of a hat, 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.040 because it's usually involved the drop of a day's pay 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.440 and most people don't want to lose a day's pay. 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.760 So you'll usually find there's something of a history going 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:09.000 on around the strikes. I mean, for example, the seventeen 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:13.640 is the eighties, the classical tactic was there is the 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.280 system tended to work on one or two strong unions 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.920 going on strike and getting say a five percent pay rise, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.959 and everyone else will then get somewhere between four point 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.880 five and five point five. So there was a bit 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:31.480 of a trend setting element and strikes back then. These 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.920 days that's quite different because which you don't have the 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:39.439 awards system and so on, But nevertheless it is a 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.040 central part of the bargaining system. 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.160 Looking back at the history of strikes, I suppose what 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.439 is one that comes to mind that has made the 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.160 most impact. And I suppose when I say impact a 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.400 public disruption, I suppose how you know notorious it was 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.920 at the time, and b are there any strikes that 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.160 have changed the course of employment law in New Zealand 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:10.120 as we know it. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.480 In terms of the one that ones that have had 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:17.040 the biggest impact. It depends what you mean by impact 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.640 us as the ones I talked about in the seventies 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:25.400 where you had one strike essentially setting up what was 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.920 going to be the rough approximate approximate wage increase for 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.240 everyone in the country over the next year is obviously 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:39.360 had significant economic impact, but they are often relatively short strikes. 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.280 You know, everyone knew, you know what the game was, 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.760 so to speak. In terms of ones that have had 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:53.040 a massive public impact, probably one that has was a 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.679 strike at was it the freezing works down and at 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.240 Bluff many years ago when there was a decision to 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.839 prosecute the people who had gone on strike, which never 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.080 quite there was moldering playing funny games before an election. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.760 That was quite significant in the sense that they then 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.280 had rethinking strike law to sort of, I suppose, bring 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.440 it into line with what was going on and practice 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.120 and so on. But since then one in terms of 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.840 changing employment law as a whole, probably not, because the 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:35.200 law has now been pretty much settled since nineteen eighty seven, 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.400 which seems like yesterday to an old person like me, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.800 But in fact, yeah, we're talking almost forty years ago. 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.360 So we've had an extremely stable system of employment law 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.559 at the strike law since then. So and generally speaking 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.280 it works fairly well. That does allow the right to strike, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.800 It has some limits on the right striking that you 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.600 have to be doing it in relation to collective bargaining, 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.360 which limits the overall impact. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.200 Does that mean that I can't because I'm you know, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.360 if nobody, I can't just walk off the job. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:20.480 You can only strike if you're a union member and 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:27.120 that union is negotiating a new collective agreement for you. Well, 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.880 there's an exception for safety and health strikes. If the 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.160 ceiling above you're about to fall on your head, you 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:37.679 could walk off, But outside that and those type of 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:42.520 strikes are obviously very rare because it's usually someone refusing 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:47.480 to sort of make safety improvements. But generally speaking, the 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.680 number of people who can go and strike at any 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.120 one time is somewhat constrained. And you'll notice in the 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.320 current lot it's the asms on the doctor's side who 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.800 are striking, but not the other two doctors unions who 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.840 don't have a collective agreement, the negotiation at. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:13.360 The moment, that's what Public Service Minister Jude the Collins 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.000 is doing, telling parents they should be quizzing teachers about 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.319 the timing of the strikes. She's saying to parents, go 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.480 and ask these clowns why they're striking, then having a 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.320 teacher only day, then having a day off on Monday 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.960 because the long weekend, the nerve of it, that's what 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.920 she's saying. She is, for all intents and purposes, calling 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.600 on people to harass teachers who aren't breaking the law, 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.720 whose actions yet might be a bit of an inconvenience. 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.000 But that's all as far as I'm consumed. The teachers 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.080 shouldn't have to defend themselves to nagging parents, and the 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.920 government shouldn't be encouraging these parents to harass them about it. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.560 But that's how I feel. But how do you see. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:53.920 It when it comes to you mentioned before that ministers 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.360 could do better at stepping back when it comes to 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.920 collective bargaining. Is there any way that we can make 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:02.160 that actually happen. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.800 Not unless the ministers choose to do it. At the 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.120 end of the day, the government, of course is funding 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:14.000 these settlements. But if you're trying to settle it. You 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:21.080 usually do it by giving appropriate instructions to the state's 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.680 Services commissioner. What's it called these days. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:30.200 Are the Public Service Commissioner Services. 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.360 So yeah, the normal thing is the government will give 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:40.240 some sort of fiscal flexibility I suppose another flexibility to 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:45.400 the commission who will then do the negotiations. What unusual 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.720 with the current round is that the commissioner himself is 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:58.080 directly controlling the negotiations. Previously that used to be delegated 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.360 to the Education Department or Ministry of Health or whoever. 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:08.040 So at the central employer level, this negotiating powers being 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:13.560 sort of pulled back to the center. And obviously with 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:18.760 the current government, ministers much more directly involved, and you 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.520 see in fact very little from the commissioner and most 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.680 of the fronting up is being done well, mainly by 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.320 a Minister of Health. Occasionally the Education minister stickson and 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.200 of course you're not hearing anything at all from the 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:36.760 Minister for Workplace Relations on this, so it's sort of 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.040 it's probably being made more political from that end, I think, 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:45.880 rather than the union end, because I mean, obviously they're 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:51.080 quite concerned because the pay levels being a pay increases 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:56.160 being offered seen to be sitting below, amounting to a 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:01.640 cut in real income, so ill the you know that, 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.560 plus the some general issues around working conditions, So what's 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:12.040 driving that side of things? But politically, of course, you've 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.160 got a number of these big connectors have expired, all 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.320 at the same time, and they're all negotiating. So presumably 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:24.600 the unions involved perhaps coordinating this to some extent and 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:30.040 trying to get the biggest splash, which are succeeding quite well. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.040 And I mean, if you can all have a one 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.880 day strike and several hundred thousand people involved, it looks 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:43.840 at probably be better from pushing as a reinforced view 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.679 of what should be going on, rather than their small 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:48.840 strikes which don't get much attention. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.400 Oh we're talking about it, aren't we, Gordon Yea, indeed, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.480 thanks so much for joining us. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:57.840 That's all right, no problem. But all. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.919 That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.840 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.960 at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.439 produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.119 our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.760 on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.840 in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.