1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Kielder. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Up to 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand union members across health and education are 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 2: on strike today. The action prompted Public Service Minister Judith 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: Collins to pen a letter to New Zealanders saying the 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: strikes are more about politics than outcomes. The mega strike 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: is being tipped to be the largest in our history. 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: So as nurses, doctors and teachers take to the picket line, 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: we'll take a look back at industrial action in Altieroa 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: and whether it's all actually worth it. Today on the 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: Front Page, Victoria University of Wellington Emeritus Professor Gordon Anderson 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: is with us to discuss the history of labor laws 14 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: in New Zealand. Gordon, what's happening this week is being 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: called historic, would you agree? 16 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Semi historic and probably historical within the living memory of 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: anyone who's around these days. I mean the last massive strike, 18 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: of course, which we know for a long time, was 19 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifty one Waterfront locker, and we had quite 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: high strike levels in the mid nineteen seventies, but since 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: then strike numbers have been relatively those upp but in 22 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: the eighties, but since nineteen ninety extremely low levels until 23 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: the last couple of years. 24 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say, the last couple of years, 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: it does feel like there have been a lot more 26 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: strikes than are quote usual I suppose, is that right? 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean they sort of come and go. The 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: main difference courses that the strikes these days tend to 29 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: be in the public sector because the unions that used 30 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: to go on stroke don't really exist anymore. So you know, 31 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: the classical unions that used to go on strike with 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: the meat works, some of the transport industry, the wharfs, 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: seafair is, those sort of people. But those unions, of 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: course have largely disappeared as that type of work disappeared. 35 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: So the big unions these days, well otherwise were the 36 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: big unions they used to strike us off there the 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: big public sector unions. So the only large unions left 38 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: the museum, with the exception of ED, which of course 39 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: is very widespread, but the only large unions with a 40 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: single employer tend to be the state sector unions. And 41 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: it's only lawful to strike when you're striking in relation 42 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: to collective bargaining. So if you're likely to have large 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: numbers of strikes and they have to relate to collective 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: bargaining obviously going to be connective bargaining in the state sector. 45 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: Who were the only big employers. 46 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: Is that something that's changed over time? I mean, how 47 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: has the law evolved to become the Employment Act that 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: we see today? 49 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: In very broad terms. You weren't supposed to go on 50 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: strike at all until about nineteen eighty seven. 51 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: Wow, that's quite late. 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: However, that didn't stop people doing it, right, and there 53 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: was a sort of period from about the early nineteen 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: seventies onwards when strikes were quite common. You had a 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: rather strange position there when they weren't unlawful under the Act, 56 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: that they were unlawful at common law. In the main, 57 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: everyone just ignored the common law. However, in nineteen eighty 58 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: seven there was a specific statute or definition of a 59 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: lawful and unlawful strike put into the legislation that's been 60 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: there ever since. So really only after that time that 61 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: the legality of the strike has been a major issue, 62 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: and that was narrowed a little bit in nineteen ninety 63 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: one so that you can only strike in relation to 64 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: bargaining for a connective agreement that's going to cover you, 65 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: and that's still the current law. 66 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: Does that still kind of stand up today or should 67 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: there be any more changes to labor laws? In your opinion, it. 68 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: Seems to have worked relatively well up until now. I mean, 69 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: if you ask the union, as they would claim those 70 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: the current restriction is too narrow because it stops sympathy strikes. 71 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: On the other hand, there is some compensation for that 72 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: and the ability of employers to use replacement labor during 73 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: a strike, So there's a balance. That's not a balance 74 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: everyone would perhaps wholly agree with, but it's not totally 75 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: unreasonable either. 76 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: What are sympathy strikes? 77 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Oh, it's if I go on strike to support you, 78 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: not refusing to finish the. 79 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: Podcast turns up in solidarity. 80 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, in solidarity. 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, no worry about that happening. We'll get this done, Gordon. 82 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: Recent reforms have seen things like pay deductions for partial strikes. 83 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: What does that suggest about the current government's approach to 84 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: industrial action? 85 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: Which bit of the current government you ask, I suspect? 86 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: I mean, the current Minister for Workplace Relations is obviously 87 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: not exactly pro worker. If I can be polite and. 88 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: You don't have to be polite here. 89 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure there are elements within the government who'd 90 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: be be quite happy to further restrict the ability to strike. 91 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: As long as you've got it, as long as people 92 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: are doing collective bargaining, there's not really a problem that. 93 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: The problem you have with the state sector of course, 94 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: that they should actually be doing the bargaining because the 95 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: centu of course, this is bargaining between an employer and employees. 96 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: And what's happening is a very strong political element is 97 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: creeping and the more politicians are involved that probably the 98 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: more politically it gets. Rather than trying to resolve particular 99 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: industrial disputes. So I mean, if we were dealing with 100 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: private sector employers, the focus would be probably very much 101 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: stronger on how do we settle this dispute? You know, 102 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: how far are we prepared to go to increase paints on? 103 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: And of course, yeah, the government's thinking of it, and 104 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: I suspect in a wider terms and particularly is there 105 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: at a period of austerity of that sort of thing, 106 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,239 Speaker 1: So that whole political side of course is coming into 107 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: it and complicating the negotiations which would normally be resolved 108 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,119 Speaker 1: at least at a slighter distance I think from ministers 109 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: at the moment that all the comments are coming from 110 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: minister's who, of course should be a step back from 111 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: employment negotiations. 112 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: Does the law as it stands have a good balance 113 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: between a worker's right to strike versus minimizing disruption to 114 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: public services? 115 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: Say, pretty much Employment Relations Act. There's a whole chunk 116 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: in it on strikes, particularly in the health sector, and 117 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: there is an obligation there to maintain the basic operations 118 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: of the health sector. So while some routine surgery may 119 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: not be able to be done, you know, if you 120 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: decide they have a heart attack today, you can still 121 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: be assured that the appropriate services will be available to 122 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: deal with that, and there is a mechanism for sorting 123 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: that out of there's a disagreement between what the hospitals 124 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: think the level of services should be and what the 125 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: unions do, and that's usually fairly carefully observedly. 126 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: O Loik. 127 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: This is a really important moment for New Zealanders to 128 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: stand up and say we want better funded healthcare systems, 129 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: better funded schools. And the reason for that is that 130 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 3: we all need access to these services and we don't 131 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: want to turn up to hospital and find there aren't 132 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: enough nurses because they've all left to go to Australia 133 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: for higher wages. We need to make sure we keep 134 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: nurses in New Zealand, teachers in New Zealand. So I 135 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: think it is really important for the whole country to 136 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 3: stand up now and say we want our hospitals, our 137 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: schools funded properly. Government is up to you to find 138 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: the money and make sure they are funded properly. 139 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: How important is a worker's right to strike. 140 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: Extremely because in the absence of it, you're stuck with 141 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: taking whatever the boss offers that you can't really do 142 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: anything else. I mean, obviously, I suppose you can resign 143 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: from the job and walk away from it, but then 144 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: you go to another job that we're in the same position. 145 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: So the strike the right to strikes are essential to 146 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: any form of workers being able to improve their conditions 147 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: of employment. And of course you have to remember that 148 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: in the absence of a right to strike, it's usually 149 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: individuals negotiating with large companies or something like that. So 150 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: the economic leverage each has got us quite different. So 151 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: collective bargaining probably doesn't what definitely doesn't totally rebalance things, 152 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: but it does give some degree of ability to try 153 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: and negotiate better terms and conditions. 154 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: Do you think it's still useful as a bargaining tool. 155 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: Yes, workers don't usually go on strike in spite of 156 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: what people seem to think at the drop of a hat, 157 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: because it's usually involved the drop of a day's pay 158 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: and most people don't want to lose a day's pay. 159 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: So you'll usually find there's something of a history going 160 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: on around the strikes. I mean, for example, the seventeen 161 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: is the eighties, the classical tactic was there is the 162 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: system tended to work on one or two strong unions 163 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: going on strike and getting say a five percent pay rise, 164 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: and everyone else will then get somewhere between four point 165 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: five and five point five. So there was a bit 166 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: of a trend setting element and strikes back then. These 167 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: days that's quite different because which you don't have the 168 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: awards system and so on, But nevertheless it is a 169 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: central part of the bargaining system. 170 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: Looking back at the history of strikes, I suppose what 171 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 2: is one that comes to mind that has made the 172 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: most impact. And I suppose when I say impact a 173 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: public disruption, I suppose how you know notorious it was 174 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: at the time, and b are there any strikes that 175 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: have changed the course of employment law in New Zealand 176 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: as we know it. 177 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: In terms of the one that ones that have had 178 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: the biggest impact. It depends what you mean by impact 179 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: us as the ones I talked about in the seventies 180 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: where you had one strike essentially setting up what was 181 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: going to be the rough approximate approximate wage increase for 182 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: everyone in the country over the next year is obviously 183 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: had significant economic impact, but they are often relatively short strikes. 184 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: You know, everyone knew, you know what the game was, 185 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: so to speak. In terms of ones that have had 186 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: a massive public impact, probably one that has was a 187 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: strike at was it the freezing works down and at 188 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: Bluff many years ago when there was a decision to 189 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: prosecute the people who had gone on strike, which never 190 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: quite there was moldering playing funny games before an election. 191 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: That was quite significant in the sense that they then 192 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: had rethinking strike law to sort of, I suppose, bring 193 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: it into line with what was going on and practice 194 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: and so on. But since then one in terms of 195 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: changing employment law as a whole, probably not, because the 196 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: law has now been pretty much settled since nineteen eighty seven, 197 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: which seems like yesterday to an old person like me, 198 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: But in fact, yeah, we're talking almost forty years ago. 199 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: So we've had an extremely stable system of employment law 200 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: at the strike law since then. So and generally speaking 201 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: it works fairly well. That does allow the right to strike, 202 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: It has some limits on the right striking that you 203 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: have to be doing it in relation to collective bargaining, 204 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: which limits the overall impact. 205 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: Does that mean that I can't because I'm you know, 206 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: if nobody, I can't just walk off the job. 207 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: You can only strike if you're a union member and 208 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: that union is negotiating a new collective agreement for you. Well, 209 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: there's an exception for safety and health strikes. If the 210 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: ceiling above you're about to fall on your head, you 211 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: could walk off, But outside that and those type of 212 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: strikes are obviously very rare because it's usually someone refusing 213 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: to sort of make safety improvements. But generally speaking, the 214 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: number of people who can go and strike at any 215 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: one time is somewhat constrained. And you'll notice in the 216 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: current lot it's the asms on the doctor's side who 217 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: are striking, but not the other two doctors unions who 218 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: don't have a collective agreement, the negotiation at. 219 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 4: The moment, that's what Public Service Minister Jude the Collins 220 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: is doing, telling parents they should be quizzing teachers about 221 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 4: the timing of the strikes. She's saying to parents, go 222 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: and ask these clowns why they're striking, then having a 223 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 4: teacher only day, then having a day off on Monday 224 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 4: because the long weekend, the nerve of it, that's what 225 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 4: she's saying. She is, for all intents and purposes, calling 226 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 4: on people to harass teachers who aren't breaking the law, 227 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 4: whose actions yet might be a bit of an inconvenience. 228 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 4: But that's all as far as I'm consumed. The teachers 229 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 4: shouldn't have to defend themselves to nagging parents, and the 230 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 4: government shouldn't be encouraging these parents to harass them about it. 231 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 4: But that's how I feel. But how do you see. 232 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: It when it comes to you mentioned before that ministers 233 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: could do better at stepping back when it comes to 234 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: collective bargaining. Is there any way that we can make 235 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: that actually happen. 236 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: Not unless the ministers choose to do it. At the 237 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: end of the day, the government, of course is funding 238 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: these settlements. But if you're trying to settle it. You 239 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: usually do it by giving appropriate instructions to the state's 240 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: Services commissioner. What's it called these days. 241 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: Are the Public Service Commissioner Services. 242 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, the normal thing is the government will give 243 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: some sort of fiscal flexibility I suppose another flexibility to 244 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: the commission who will then do the negotiations. What unusual 245 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: with the current round is that the commissioner himself is 246 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: directly controlling the negotiations. Previously that used to be delegated 247 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: to the Education Department or Ministry of Health or whoever. 248 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: So at the central employer level, this negotiating powers being 249 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: sort of pulled back to the center. And obviously with 250 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: the current government, ministers much more directly involved, and you 251 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: see in fact very little from the commissioner and most 252 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: of the fronting up is being done well, mainly by 253 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: a Minister of Health. Occasionally the Education minister stickson and 254 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: of course you're not hearing anything at all from the 255 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: Minister for Workplace Relations on this, so it's sort of 256 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: it's probably being made more political from that end, I think, 257 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: rather than the union end, because I mean, obviously they're 258 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: quite concerned because the pay levels being a pay increases 259 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: being offered seen to be sitting below, amounting to a 260 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: cut in real income, so ill the you know that, 261 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: plus the some general issues around working conditions, So what's 262 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: driving that side of things? But politically, of course, you've 263 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: got a number of these big connectors have expired, all 264 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: at the same time, and they're all negotiating. So presumably 265 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: the unions involved perhaps coordinating this to some extent and 266 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: trying to get the biggest splash, which are succeeding quite well. 267 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: And I mean, if you can all have a one 268 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: day strike and several hundred thousand people involved, it looks 269 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: at probably be better from pushing as a reinforced view 270 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: of what should be going on, rather than their small 271 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: strikes which don't get much attention. 272 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 2: Oh we're talking about it, aren't we, Gordon Yea, indeed, 273 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining us. 274 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: That's all right, no problem. But all. 275 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 276 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 277 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 278 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 279 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 280 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 281 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.