1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,920 Speaker 1: With us right now, we have the Finance Minister Nicola 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Lasye Nikola Hire You are you supporting the grocery Commissioner's 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: cracked down? 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's important that the Grocery Commissioner use 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: the powers that have been given to him to ensure 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 2: that the big supermarkets are being competitive and are behaving 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: within the code that they've all signed up to. 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Is it going to die because David Seymour is going 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: to oppose it. 10 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: I've got no reason to believe that's the case. We've 11 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: got a law there that's being enforced, and I think 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 2: most New Zealanders would agree that competition between the major 13 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: supermarket players is important. We want to get a good 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: deal for consumers and enforcing the regulations is one way 15 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: of doing this. 16 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: For the Grocery Commissioner to be able to go the 17 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: full hog that he wants to, he needs to get 18 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: some sort of sign off from legislators. Is it something 19 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: that just the minister can sign off or does it 20 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: have to go through cabinet? 21 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: Well, he's already got a full suite of powers available 22 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: to him so, and of course he's only been up 23 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: and running for a few months. So the point is 24 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: use those powers that are available to you and if 25 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: he thinks that they're not sufficient, and he'd have to 26 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: bring that case to ministers, and yes, ministers would have 27 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: to decide whether we wanted to take further action. In 28 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: the first instance, I think he has to enforce the 29 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 2: law that's already there. 30 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: Yes, So that is what he wants to be able 31 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: to do. Is he wants to be able to force 32 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: changes at wholesale, he needs a Section fifty six inquiry, 33 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: which he's going to do, and then the backstop is 34 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: granted to him by the minister. Does that need David 35 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Seymour sign off. 36 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: Look, this is not something that we have that we 37 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: have discussed as a cabinet, and I think that is 38 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: one step and then the next step. So the first 39 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: step is force what's there. The second step is for 40 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: those supermarkets to do compliance and make sure that they're 41 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: meeting the requirements that are there, and then any other 42 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: steps would be after that. So I'm not going to 43 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: get ahead of head of the s because did you. 44 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: See David Seymore's comments over the weekends that weekend that 45 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: he opposes any further regulation by this guy. 46 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: Well, look, I think what we can all agree is 47 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: that the ultimate solutions that we would like to see 48 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: is another entrant into the serve market space, which is 49 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: to say, what's the best way to disrupt the current geopoly. 50 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: It would be a third big player operating in the 51 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: serfmarket space. And so I think I agree with David 52 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: Seymour that removing any regulatory barriers that are currently preventing 53 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: that happening is a sensible idea. So, for example, we 54 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 2: know that the Resource Management Act and the Overseas Investment 55 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: Act could both pose regulatory barriers to a new ent 56 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: front wanting to enter the serve market space. So we 57 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: need to think about this from a range of angles. 58 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: Competition law and policy is one angle, but the broader 59 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: regulatory environment is another. 60 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: Why would a third big player enter a market that 61 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: has been tinkered with and crushed by a grocery commissioner. 62 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: Because if a third player thinks that it's a highly 63 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: profitable market, it certainly appears to be. They might think 64 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: that they can and compete effectively in that market with 65 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: something they might not otherwise have. 66 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: Which third big player is going to come into a 67 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: market where we are talking like publicly about breaking up 68 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: supermarkets that that's high risk stuff. 69 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think what we want to see is competitive growthery. 70 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, we want to see it. It is is this 71 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: heavy handed approach with regulation actually not counterproductive and actually 72 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: stopping a third big player coming in. 73 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: Look out of Actually, what you're saying, Heather, is that 74 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: when there's a duopoly in place, we should all just 75 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: lead them to do actually what they want to do, 76 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: because if we threaten to enforce competition, then they might 77 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: not like it. 78 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not arguing that, 79 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm just I'm looking at what is happening and 80 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: just wondering if that is actually helpful or not. 81 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to expect that 82 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: the major market players should comply with the glare of 83 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: it stands, should act in a competitive way, that the 84 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: growth thy mission I should be able to use his 85 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: powers to enforce that. And ultimately, I don't think anyone 86 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: wants to see the grocery Commissioner having to take more 87 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: serious steps because the serve markets haven't complied. The first 88 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: test is they should comply. 89 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: Do you reckon by the time. Look, the thing is, 90 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: I don't want it to continue the way it does, Right, 91 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: but I want to see so I just don't want 92 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: it to get worse. Do you reckon that by the 93 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: time you guys have finished in government, we will actually 94 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: have cheaper groceries. 95 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: Well, the biggest driver there, as I've always said, as 96 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 2: the inflation rates, and we've got inflation coming back into 97 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: bands by the bank pooka. So we are not going 98 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 2: to see the extreme price increases at thes market checkout 99 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: that we've seen in recent years. 100 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: You don't even sound confident. 101 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: I am confident we're not going to see the extreme 102 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: price increases that we've seen AT's market checkout in recent years. 103 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: I can tell your inflations come back, but are we 104 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: actually going to see grocery prices come back markedly? Because 105 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: you guys have solved the problem. 106 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think it is important that we enforce oh 107 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: competition measures in the grocery sector. I am concerned that 108 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: the duopoly we have had in place has not fostered 109 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: the kind of competitive prices for New Zealanders that we 110 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: would wish to see. And actually, when the OECD and 111 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: others look at the New Zealand economy, they warn us 112 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: at one of the risks of our small size and 113 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: a distance from markets is that you can get these 114 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: dominant players and what are really important consumer markets, and 115 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: that it's incredibly important that we have good regulatory frameworks 116 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: for enforcing market disciplines and competition. And that's the approach 117 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: our government is taking now. 118 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: Simon Bridges reckons that the reason we're seeing liquidations up 119 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: by close to twenty percent year on year is because 120 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: the ID is forcing a lot of these businesses into liquidation. 121 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: They were they were taking a very kind of light 122 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: handed approach beforehand. Now that really tough on businesses. Do 123 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: you know if this is what's going on. 124 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 2: Well, obviously it's really sad when any business gets to 125 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: the point of liquidation and entryoptsy and liquidation processes are 126 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: an absolute vast resort and they're about stopping businesses from 127 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 2: further trading because that they are unable to meet their 128 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: historic and current tax viabilities. And ultimately this is about 129 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: stopping insolvent businesses from trading trading. It is true that 130 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: during COVID, during this pandemic years, IOD was not doing 131 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: much of that proactive work and that that practice was 132 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: in place, But actually the truth is now there are 133 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: sadly some businesses that are simply not viable and are 134 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: unable to meet their text debts, and it's the right thing. 135 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: To do for the IID to enforce those so because 136 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: what his argument is is if they just if this 137 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 3: is the ID, if the IID just gives these businesses 138 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: a little bit of breathing space, maybe through to twenty 139 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: five they'll be able to pay it back. 140 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: You don't think so. 141 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: Well, Look, obviously the IOD has to make those judgments 142 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: because the ID ultimately wants to get the tax that 143 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: it's owed it. It also wants to see businesses being 144 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: able to operate. But when they see a business that 145 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 2: is actually trading while unviable, that isn't able to meet 146 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: its historic tax debts, it's current tax debts, sometimes it 147 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: does have to act because ultimately, the way the tax 148 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: system works is that we're all expected to pay our 149 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: tax in full, and no business can go on forever 150 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: unable to do that. 151 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: Nicholas, that Cabinet circular that instructs agencies government agencies to 152 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: allocate services based on need not race, Is that coming 153 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: from you? 154 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: Yes, that will be. That's something that I have been. 155 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: Working on and when is that going to come out? 156 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: Very shortly Heather, a very well timed question from you. 157 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: Oh is it like well timed? Like it will be 158 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: before the next time I talk to you. 159 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: Well timed, that's right, Heather, Very good detective work. 160 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: Oh look, thank you for that. Jeez, you know this 161 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: is going to be a shock to health New Zealand. 162 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: Do you realize that. 163 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's it's an important expression and we've 164 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: we're tired on it and I think it'll be a 165 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: good discipline for government agencies and we'll have more to 166 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: say about it very soon. 167 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Looking forward to it. Nicola, thank you very much as 168 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: always for your time. That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister. 169 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: There you go. You heard it here. First, your cabinet 170 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: cabinet circular, what is It's cabinet circular that's going to 171 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: come out and tell the agencies to buck up their 172 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: ideas and stop treating people differently just because they fucking 173 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: up a different back to different places. That's coming out 174 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: this week. How about that? For more from Heather Duplessy 175 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: Allen Drive, listen live to news Talks it'd be from 176 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.