1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520
Speaker 1: We're looking to get tougher with asylum seekers. We found

2
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,360
Speaker 1: fourteen claim its apparently have been convicted of serious offense

3
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: as well in the country, so the changes would mean

4
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,000
Speaker 1: refugee status could be declined and deportation made more likely.

5
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 1: Aaron Martin's, a principal lawyer at New Zealand Immigration Law

6
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,680
Speaker 1: Anders with us. Aaron, very good morning to you.

7
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 2: Good morning Mike.

8
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,239
Speaker 1: It's fourteen a thing. Have we got a problem?

9
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,319
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's a problem, but I think that

10
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 2: there is a gap that needs to be dealt with

11
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 2: and I think the government has dealt with it pretty effectively.

12
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: Can we do anything we want as a government potentially.

13
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 2: In terms of when it comes to your border control? Yeah, yeah,

14
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:37,200
Speaker 2: pretty much.

15
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 1: See the reason I asked that question. Are you following

16
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,200
Speaker 1: the case in Australia, some of which got resolved yesterday

17
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,680
Speaker 1: with a bloke on ankle bracelets? And these are the

18
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,520
Speaker 1: immigrants or asylum seekers who come to Australia get locked

19
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 1: up and then they can't be locked up, and then

20
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 1: they let loose and then they're Centinaru and then they

21
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: get tags and they can't have tags, which strikes me

22
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,400
Speaker 1: as a case that actually you can't control your own borders,

23
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: so you're saying we can.

24
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 2: There's two issues. There's the criminal justice side of the

25
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,720
Speaker 2: equation and then the border control side of the equation,

26
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 2: and sometimes that's where the tension gets a little bit difficult.

27
00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so we are lucky, I suppose in the sense

28
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,559
Speaker 1: that we don't have the Australia problem or the British problem,

29
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 1: the European problem in general. Would that be fair?

30
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. You know, being an island at the bottom

31
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,679
Speaker 2: of the world has a ease of border control element

32
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:29,959
Speaker 2: to it.

33
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,760
Speaker 1: Are there problems with appeals and so in other words,

34
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 1: if you get sprang, you'll appeal on legal aid and

35
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 1: therefore you tie up the justice system further. Is that

36
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: an issue or not.

37
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,520
Speaker 2: It creates a significant cost to the taxpayer. But there's

38
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 2: two elements to it. You've got the use of refugee

39
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,640
Speaker 2: appeals and the flow on effect from what the government

40
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 2: sees is, you know, a large number of spurious refugee

41
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 2: claims being made that appeal that clock up the system.

42
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 2: On the other side of it, you've got people who

43
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,400
Speaker 2: aren't refugees that are residentis a holder. They commit criminal

44
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 2: offense and then they end up being liable for deportation.

45
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 2: One of the issues that hasn't really been explored, in

46
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 2: my view, is that low level of offending that can

47
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: make people liable for deportation or it does make so.

48
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,919
Speaker 1: You should we should be tougher, is what you're suggesting.

49
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 2: What I'm suggesting is that we actually should have a

50
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,640
Speaker 2: look at that level of offending that makes you liable

51
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 2: for deportation and the upcoming five.

52
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,839
Speaker 1: Year area, because I'm assuming these people have gone bad,

53
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: because if you'd gone bad before you arrived here, you

54
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't get your ticket here, would you.

55
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,360
Speaker 2: That's that's correct. But you know, the level of offending

56
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 2: we're talking about that makes liable for deportation, Mike, is

57
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 2: a U turn in a street that causes an accident

58
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,280
Speaker 2: with some minor injury.

59
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,359
Speaker 1: So that's too low. It's too aggressive, is what you're suggesting.

60
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 2: What I'm suggesting is that the threshold of offending that

61
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: makes you liable for deportation and the five year period

62
00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 2: is set too low. It's a carryover from the nineteen

63
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,920
Speaker 2: eighty seven Act. As I per forming a U turn

64
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 2: in the street that results in a hereless driving or

65
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 2: dangerous driving charge makes you liable for deportation in the

66
00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,480
Speaker 2: next five years of your residency.

67
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: Too harsh, mind you. You can counter that by simply saying,

68
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,960
Speaker 1: are you're lucky to be here, behave yourself, and if

69
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: you do anything wrong, you're out. And if that's your

70
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 1: understanding and you're prepared to accept those set of circumstances,

71
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: deals a.

72
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,640
Speaker 2: Deal that is. But most other people would say, well,

73
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,200
Speaker 2: hold on, if I'm a citizen, I go, I pay

74
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 2: my fine. You know, I'm remorseful. I shouldn't have done

75
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,000
Speaker 2: the U turn. Other people say, well, I do that too,

76
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 2: But I also get the potential for being ripped away

77
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: from my family, my job. I may have been here

78
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 2: for seven or eight years, you know, a good portion

79
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 2: on a student visa, a good portion on a work visa,

80
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 2: contributing to the country. I might be an engineer, I

81
00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 2: might be a doctor, or might be something that the

82
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 2: country needs. And we go through this terribly extensive exercise

83
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 2: of deportation, liability investigations, potentially appeals, the tire taxtpath and resources.

84
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 2: And I think that that the level of criminal offending

85
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 2: in their first five years that makes you line for

86
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 2: deportation needs to have a reviewed good stuff.

87
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 1: Eric. Next time I get Eric Roon, I'm going to

88
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: ask her about that's not a bad point Eron Martin,

89
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 1: who's principal lawyer at the New Zealand Immigration law The

90
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 1: Australian case I cited, by the way, I probably won't

91
00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: have time to come back to it, but it was

92
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 1: a big deal yesterday in Australia. Look it up. The

93
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,160
Speaker 1: guy concerned came to the country as a young person,

94
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,600
Speaker 1: committed a crime, had a tag on his ankle because

95
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,839
Speaker 1: he couldn't be put in jail because of the previous cases.

96
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: So you remember the Nauru business had a tag put

97
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,480
Speaker 1: on his ankle in the court case, yes, they said,

98
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,480
Speaker 1: well you can't put a tag on his ankle. So

99
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: no matter what the government appears to want to do,

100
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: they can't do it, which makes you question, well, what

101
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,440
Speaker 1: can a government do or not do.

102
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 2: For more from the Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to

103
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 2: News Talks at b from six am weekdays, or follow

104
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.