WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #255 - September 11th 2024 - Professor Nicholas Aroney 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news Talks it be 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.213 follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.773 --> 0:00:19.773 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.813 --> 0:00:24.893 the information, all the debate of us now the Layton 0:00:25.013 --> 0:00:27.733 Smith podcast cowered by news Talks it b. 0:00:28.253 --> 0:00:31.653 Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty five for September eleventh, 0:00:31.733 --> 0:00:35.213 twenty twenty four. When John Graham died, it was a 0:00:35.253 --> 0:00:38.133 great loss to many many people and to the country. 0:00:38.373 --> 0:00:41.933 He was an educationalist, headmaster of Auckland Grammar for twenty 0:00:41.973 --> 0:00:45.293 one years. He was a rugby player of the highest order, 0:00:45.733 --> 0:00:49.293 playing twenty two Tests three as the All Blacks captain. 0:00:49.973 --> 0:00:52.453 But most of all, I'd say his greatest achievement was 0:00:52.813 --> 0:00:56.253 the positive influence that he had on so many lives. 0:00:56.973 --> 0:01:00.373 For those who, for whatever reason, are unfamiliar with his name, 0:01:00.493 --> 0:01:03.693 Sir John Graham was a legend one of the greatest 0:01:04.053 --> 0:01:08.173 Maxim Institute, of which he was a founding trustee, as 0:01:08.453 --> 0:01:12.573 being responsible for establishing and maintaining the Sir John Graham 0:01:12.653 --> 0:01:18.253 Annual Lecture. This year was the fourteenth such event. Every 0:01:18.333 --> 0:01:22.213 year Maxim produces a guest speaker of considerable talent this 0:01:22.293 --> 0:01:26.253 year's speaker was Nicholas Herony, Professor of Constitutional Law at 0:01:26.293 --> 0:01:31.173 the University of Queensland. The title was The Compass of Character. 0:01:31.773 --> 0:01:35.733 Sir John would have approved. Nicholas Arony guests in podcast 0:01:35.813 --> 0:01:38.853 two hundred and fifty five and we discussed the subject 0:01:38.893 --> 0:01:42.733 of his speech, but only after we traversed a number 0:01:42.773 --> 0:01:48.053 of other issues, beginning with democracy and challenges, of which 0:01:48.093 --> 0:01:52.013 there are many. Layton Smith speaking of character. In a 0:01:52.053 --> 0:01:55.493 few hours and the so called presidential debate will be 0:01:55.653 --> 0:01:58.373 live on TV, and at that point this podcast will 0:01:58.413 --> 0:02:01.893 be ready for release, which will likely be during the debate. 0:02:02.053 --> 0:02:05.853 So I cannot comment on the battle that so many 0:02:05.853 --> 0:02:07.973 people are wanting it to be and hanging out for. 0:02:08.573 --> 0:02:10.973 I can't comment on that because I won't be in. 0:02:10.893 --> 0:02:11.493 A position to. 0:02:12.093 --> 0:02:14.853 But what I've decided to do is to quote you 0:02:14.933 --> 0:02:18.173 an opinion as a way of setup, and you're most 0:02:18.253 --> 0:02:21.573 likely to be hearing this opinion after you've seen or 0:02:21.653 --> 0:02:25.213 heard reports on the debate and how it went. This 0:02:25.253 --> 0:02:28.733 is a commentary written by Carrie Lucas, who is president 0:02:28.973 --> 0:02:33.253 of Independent Women's Forum in the United States. It's intriguing 0:02:33.293 --> 0:02:35.133 because you've got to be able to make a judgment. 0:02:35.253 --> 0:02:38.813 Call on the debate as you've seen it, and compare 0:02:38.813 --> 0:02:43.133 it with this. Kamala Harris's campaign is making women look 0:02:43.533 --> 0:02:47.813 incompetent is the title, Especially to those of us who 0:02:47.973 --> 0:02:50.853 want to see a female president. It's so awful to 0:02:50.893 --> 0:02:53.453 have a candidate who is so obviously not up to 0:02:53.493 --> 0:02:57.013 the job. Carrie Lucas writes, I want every little girl 0:02:57.013 --> 0:03:00.213 across our country to know this. You can do anything, 0:03:00.613 --> 0:03:03.613 even if it's never been done before. Said in August 0:03:03.813 --> 0:03:08.973 twenty six x post from the Kamala Harris Tim Wallson campaign. 0:03:09.853 --> 0:03:14.053 It's vapid and cliche, the kind of feel good self 0:03:14.053 --> 0:03:17.533 help speak that should be avoided during the serious business 0:03:17.533 --> 0:03:20.013 of electing the leader of the free world. Yet it 0:03:20.173 --> 0:03:25.453 speaks to the uncomfortable truth for women. Closely following this campaign, 0:03:25.893 --> 0:03:29.933 Kamala Harris is trading new ground as the first female 0:03:30.013 --> 0:03:33.653 vice president and someone with a serious shot at becoming 0:03:33.653 --> 0:03:36.893 America's first female president. You don't have to be a 0:03:37.013 --> 0:03:41.493 dei enthusiast to recognize that the first female president will 0:03:41.493 --> 0:03:44.973 have a special place in the history books as the 0:03:44.973 --> 0:03:48.653 culmination of the centuries long fight for women's rights in 0:03:48.693 --> 0:03:52.853 the United States. That's also why it's so awful to 0:03:52.853 --> 0:03:56.653 have a female presidential candidate who is so obviously not 0:03:57.173 --> 0:04:02.373 up to the job. Subheading, Americans would elect a woman, 0:04:03.333 --> 0:04:07.013 but this one isn't Ready. Surveys suggest Americans are willing, 0:04:07.173 --> 0:04:12.053 even eager, to vote for a evil candidate. Harris's campaign 0:04:12.653 --> 0:04:18.093 is predicated on this. Publicly, the campaign hand rings about 0:04:18.133 --> 0:04:21.813 how sexism against women is a formidable obstacle that the 0:04:21.853 --> 0:04:25.773 trailblazing Kamala must overcome. In a country of nearly one 0:04:25.853 --> 0:04:29.093 hundred and seventy million registered voters, undoubtedly at least a 0:04:29.133 --> 0:04:34.573 few simply will not vote for any woman. Female candidates looks, 0:04:34.853 --> 0:04:40.053 wardrobe decisions, and personal histories likely are generally subject to 0:04:40.573 --> 0:04:44.413 greater press scrutiny than that of the average male candidate. 0:04:44.733 --> 0:04:47.373 And yet it's also clear that Kamala sex is her 0:04:47.813 --> 0:04:50.573 greatest asset. I will skip the rest of this It's 0:04:50.613 --> 0:04:55.973 fairly long subheading the campaign Women Deserve Harris could have 0:04:56.013 --> 0:04:59.613 offered Americans a very different campaign. She could have boldly 0:04:59.693 --> 0:05:04.333 defended the Biden Harris administration as a success that deserves 0:05:04.373 --> 0:05:08.173 another four years, or explained how as president she would 0:05:08.493 --> 0:05:12.333 but on a few critical policy issues, Americans might have 0:05:12.333 --> 0:05:15.013 given her points for admitting that mistakes were made in 0:05:15.053 --> 0:05:19.693 good faith under President Biden and Harris's watch. Americans might 0:05:19.693 --> 0:05:22.573 have appreciated the honesty of saying that three years in 0:05:22.653 --> 0:05:27.253 office taught her important lessons and she plans to course correct. 0:05:27.533 --> 0:05:31.133 She could have fearlessly revisited her twenty twenty primary statements 0:05:31.333 --> 0:05:33.773 and described the process by which she has come to 0:05:34.013 --> 0:05:41.613 moderate her positions subheading deep inside Carmelin knows that she's incompetent, 0:05:41.973 --> 0:05:44.813 and this is worth reading its entirety, which is fairly short. Anyway, 0:05:45.293 --> 0:05:48.573 she enabled the Trump campaign to make Kamala v. Kamala 0:05:48.813 --> 0:05:53.933 ads to expose her competing policy positions and reveal her 0:05:53.973 --> 0:05:57.213 as a chameleon. She confirmed the suspicion that her party 0:05:57.253 --> 0:06:01.493 doesn't trust her to handle serious questions or to articulate 0:06:01.533 --> 0:06:04.573 her party's policy agenda. They believe that she must be 0:06:04.653 --> 0:06:08.333 kept with notes behind a teleprompter. Hillary Clinton didn't not 0:06:08.533 --> 0:06:11.133 act like this. Nikki Hayley didn't ask a man to 0:06:11.213 --> 0:06:15.293 tag along for big interviews. Why is Kamala allowing herself 0:06:15.293 --> 0:06:19.573 to be treated like she's incompetent? It's because of the 0:06:19.613 --> 0:06:23.973 worst truth of all. She believes it too. You can 0:06:24.013 --> 0:06:28.573 see her self doubt during any unscripted moment. Each sentence 0:06:28.653 --> 0:06:32.813 is a dangerous high wire act. She's in her head, 0:06:33.213 --> 0:06:37.213 second guessing every word she utters, hearing herself get tongue 0:06:37.253 --> 0:06:40.573 tied and falling back on the verbal tics that her 0:06:40.613 --> 0:06:46.693 campaign coaches have clearly flagged as poison. Subheading. She can't 0:06:46.693 --> 0:06:50.133 even do a CNN interview herself, and we know the 0:06:50.173 --> 0:06:54.773 story behind that. Yes, many of us, she concludes, many 0:06:54.813 --> 0:06:57.253 of us do look forward to the day that we 0:06:57.373 --> 0:07:00.813 have a madam president, but not enough to buy the 0:07:00.893 --> 0:07:06.093 scam being sold us today. We know we deserve better. Well, 0:07:07.053 --> 0:07:10.093 make your own judgment call based on the comments of 0:07:10.533 --> 0:07:15.973 Carrie Lucas, president of the Independent Women's Forum, and what 0:07:16.173 --> 0:07:21.253 you see or hear of the so called presidential debate, 0:07:21.893 --> 0:07:25.173 because not really in a few hours time now, in 0:07:25.253 --> 0:07:40.973 a moment, Professor Nicholas a'rony Layton Smith, there are essential 0:07:41.053 --> 0:07:43.613 fat nutrients that we need in our diet as the 0:07:43.613 --> 0:07:47.053 body can't manufacture them. 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Always read the label and 0:08:57.493 --> 0:09:01.573 users directed and if symptoms persist, seeing your healthcare professional. 0:09:01.813 --> 0:09:13.093 Farmer Broker Auckland Nicholas Aroni is a professor of Law 0:09:13.093 --> 0:09:17.413 at the University of Queensland, specializing in constitutional law, which 0:09:17.693 --> 0:09:20.053 for me at the moment as one of the most 0:09:20.093 --> 0:09:24.573 interesting legal topics on the planet. He is here for 0:09:24.653 --> 0:09:27.773 the annual Sir John Graham Lecture and that lecture is 0:09:27.893 --> 0:09:31.893 entitled The Compass of Character, and the lecture is very interesting. 0:09:32.253 --> 0:09:35.013 I know this because I got some advanced notes. So, 0:09:35.133 --> 0:09:37.053 Nicholas Roney, it's great to have you on the Latent 0:09:37.093 --> 0:09:40.853 Smith podcast. You're much appreciated, I am told by the 0:09:40.853 --> 0:09:46.453 Maxim Institute for which you are delivering the aforementioned lecture. 0:09:47.733 --> 0:09:49.453 Look, it's a real pleasure to be here with you. 0:09:49.573 --> 0:09:51.773 Laden thank you very much for the opportunity to talk 0:09:51.813 --> 0:09:53.133 with you always. 0:09:53.653 --> 0:09:56.613 Now I want to start with something apart from the lecture. 0:09:56.653 --> 0:09:58.533 We'll get to it, of course, because that's the anchor 0:09:58.573 --> 0:10:02.373 for the conversation. I've got a couple of questions for 0:10:02.493 --> 0:10:08.173 you that are very simple. Particularly the first one, can 0:10:08.213 --> 0:10:12.453 you give us your definition of what democracy is? 0:10:13.373 --> 0:10:15.973 Goodness, that's a great question. It's not so much a 0:10:16.013 --> 0:10:19.773 simple question. Actually. I think that democracy has to do 0:10:19.853 --> 0:10:23.453 with participation in your own self government. I don't think 0:10:23.453 --> 0:10:26.973 it's simply something that you do when you vote every 0:10:26.973 --> 0:10:30.693 three or four years for candidates for election. I do 0:10:30.733 --> 0:10:33.453 think that's an important part of how our representative system 0:10:33.453 --> 0:10:38.533 of democracy works. But the very ancient definition of democracy 0:10:38.573 --> 0:10:42.093 is to participate in your own self government. And one 0:10:42.133 --> 0:10:44.773 of the interesting things that goes along with that understanding 0:10:44.773 --> 0:10:48.053 of democracy is that it can only really work at 0:10:48.053 --> 0:10:52.493 that highest level at a local level, ironically, because it's 0:10:52.533 --> 0:10:56.613 only at a local level that people are really effectively 0:10:56.693 --> 0:11:00.333 able to participate in their own self government. Bigger the 0:11:00.373 --> 0:11:03.373 country gets, the bigger the number of people, the more 0:11:03.373 --> 0:11:06.653 distant the government gets from people. So that's my essential 0:11:06.693 --> 0:11:09.013 and underlying definition of democracy. 0:11:09.133 --> 0:11:13.093 What does it involve apart from just voting, I mean, 0:11:13.133 --> 0:11:14.413 i'd start with free speech. 0:11:14.813 --> 0:11:19.253 Well, yes, precisely. So, participating in your own self government 0:11:19.333 --> 0:11:23.693 has to do with engaging in discourse, discussion, debate, speech 0:11:24.493 --> 0:11:28.933 about political matters. That's always been seen as very essential 0:11:28.973 --> 0:11:32.333 and central to the process of participating in your own 0:11:32.373 --> 0:11:36.453 self government, because in a sense, we're talking about politics, 0:11:36.653 --> 0:11:40.293 and we're talking about how we govern ourselves collectively, and 0:11:40.333 --> 0:11:43.693 so to participate in your own self government collectively with 0:11:43.773 --> 0:11:47.733 other people, it's essential that you communicate with those people 0:11:47.773 --> 0:11:50.933 that we all together talk about how we're to be 0:11:50.973 --> 0:11:55.333 governed and make decisions together after listening to each other's arguments, 0:11:55.733 --> 0:11:58.493 the reasons each gives for certain policies and so forth. 0:11:58.933 --> 0:12:03.053 So it extends beyond that, of course, to liberty in general. 0:12:04.093 --> 0:12:08.533 And on that basis, I'm going to ask you whether democracy, 0:12:08.613 --> 0:12:12.053 in your opinion, is under threats in various places on 0:12:12.093 --> 0:12:12.573 the planet. 0:12:13.213 --> 0:12:16.333 Yeah. Look, it's a good question, because, of course there's 0:12:16.373 --> 0:12:20.093 a lot of concern about that possibility and certain developments 0:12:20.133 --> 0:12:23.133 that are occurring in many countries. It seems to me 0:12:23.213 --> 0:12:27.813 that because I define democracy as something that happens best 0:12:27.853 --> 0:12:31.773 at a more local level, the underminding, sorry, the underlying 0:12:32.373 --> 0:12:36.893 challenge to democracy happens when you try to spread democracy 0:12:37.013 --> 0:12:40.413 over too larger compass, and then what happens is the 0:12:40.453 --> 0:12:44.053 government gets more and more distant from people, and power 0:12:44.093 --> 0:12:47.733 becomes more and more centralized in the government, and then 0:12:47.813 --> 0:12:51.933 the people who rule so distantly begin to just govern 0:12:52.333 --> 0:12:56.973 more autocratically or more independently of public opinion. And I 0:12:57.013 --> 0:13:01.333 think that that's the underlying problem. If democracy is under threat, 0:13:01.653 --> 0:13:04.173 I think across the world, and I wouldn't even refer 0:13:04.293 --> 0:13:06.413 simply to the countries that most people think of it 0:13:06.453 --> 0:13:11.053 as being under threat. But even in our favored Western democracies, 0:13:11.093 --> 0:13:16.173 what we're seeing is increasing centralization and an increasing concentration 0:13:16.293 --> 0:13:19.733 of power in what we call the executive government, which 0:13:19.773 --> 0:13:24.093 is distinct from our parliaments. During COVID, for example, across 0:13:24.133 --> 0:13:26.653 the world, we saw virtually all the nations of the world, 0:13:27.533 --> 0:13:33.293 even the Western democracies, relying on and functioning through an 0:13:33.293 --> 0:13:37.853 extraordinary concentration of power in the executive, and parliaments were 0:13:37.893 --> 0:13:41.413 shunted out of the process had little or no say 0:13:41.573 --> 0:13:45.613 at all about how COVID was managed. So if democracy 0:13:45.653 --> 0:13:50.093 is under threat, it's because our political systems have become 0:13:50.333 --> 0:13:53.773 so increasingly centralized that when a crisis comes along like that, 0:13:54.013 --> 0:13:57.493 or a perceived crisis comes along, the executive takes the 0:13:57.573 --> 0:14:01.373 reins and starts to govern just simply on the basis 0:14:01.373 --> 0:14:03.533 of the decisions of the executive. 0:14:04.253 --> 0:14:06.933 Another name for that would be the administrative states. 0:14:08.333 --> 0:14:11.413 Related to the administrative state. Yes, it is. It is 0:14:11.493 --> 0:14:14.773 because when we speak the administrative state, we're speaking of, 0:14:15.493 --> 0:14:20.093 as it were, the bureaucratic apparatus of the executive. Because 0:14:21.093 --> 0:14:25.133 we think of the executive interestingly, we regard the executive 0:14:25.133 --> 0:14:28.773 as a highly unified thing. Ultimately, that executive power is 0:14:28.853 --> 0:14:33.773 a singular power, but then it's exercise through many persons 0:14:33.853 --> 0:14:37.533 who exercise it in practicalities, but they are all in 0:14:37.613 --> 0:14:41.133 principle subject to the rule and guidance and direction of 0:14:41.173 --> 0:14:45.093 the One, as it were. It's interesting. I mean, I 0:14:45.133 --> 0:14:48.453 don't think we quite realize that. If stole and looked 0:14:48.453 --> 0:14:52.213 at our systems, he would say, wow, you're not really democracies. 0:14:52.653 --> 0:14:56.173 You are sort of mixed constitutions with an awful lot 0:14:56.213 --> 0:15:00.373 of monarchy. And he would say that because he means 0:15:00.453 --> 0:15:02.973 the rule of the one, and he'd be looking at 0:15:03.133 --> 0:15:05.733 our systems and notice just how much the power of 0:15:05.893 --> 0:15:09.893 just one central focus of authority he plays such a 0:15:10.013 --> 0:15:13.213 very significant role in the politics of our times. 0:15:13.493 --> 0:15:17.133 Now you it wasn't you. There was a little blick, 0:15:17.693 --> 0:15:20.733 and when you mentioned the name, we didn't quite catch it. 0:15:20.813 --> 0:15:26.133 I presume he said Socrates. Oh, I said Aristotle, all right, Aristotle. 0:15:26.413 --> 0:15:30.853 Yeah. Aristotle was the great political philosopher of ancient Athens 0:15:30.853 --> 0:15:34.653 who was so good at analyzing systems, and he very 0:15:34.813 --> 0:15:39.053 very insightfully said that we can break down systems into 0:15:39.133 --> 0:15:41.973 whether they involve the rule of the one or the few, 0:15:42.213 --> 0:15:45.013 or the many and the rule of the one he 0:15:45.053 --> 0:15:47.733 called monarchy, And he didn't have in mind the idea 0:15:47.773 --> 0:15:50.413 of a hereditary monarchy, because today we think of monarchy 0:15:50.453 --> 0:15:53.893 as been king of Queen of England and as a 0:15:53.973 --> 0:15:57.493 hereditary position and you don't elect them. But Aristotle, that's 0:15:57.533 --> 0:16:01.133 not really very relevant. What's really most crucial is whether 0:16:01.173 --> 0:16:04.453 it's just one person who rules, a few people who rule, 0:16:04.693 --> 0:16:09.813 or the many who rule. And he analyzed political systems 0:16:09.813 --> 0:16:13.213 in those terms, and I think it's very illuminating because 0:16:13.253 --> 0:16:16.693 we've lost sight of that, and we congratulate ourselves on 0:16:16.813 --> 0:16:20.253 being democracies when we have very, very vast tracks of 0:16:20.533 --> 0:16:23.413 both monarchy and aristocracy in our systems. 0:16:23.773 --> 0:16:27.573 Is a question both Aristotle and Socrates and others, but 0:16:27.613 --> 0:16:31.373 those two in particular lent their intelligence to the world 0:16:31.453 --> 0:16:36.213 for virtually ever. Is there the equivalent today in existence? 0:16:36.253 --> 0:16:39.333 Can you name me somebody or a couple of people 0:16:39.373 --> 0:16:42.053 would be even better, who would fall, who you'd put 0:16:42.093 --> 0:16:47.573 into the same category of intellect and influence as those two. 0:16:48.973 --> 0:16:52.213 Goodness? That is a tough question to ask. I don't 0:16:52.253 --> 0:16:54.613 think I can answer that. The reason why it is 0:16:54.613 --> 0:16:58.253 probably two reasons, and one is that we live in 0:16:58.293 --> 0:17:01.133 a time where the population of the world is immense, 0:17:02.213 --> 0:17:06.413 and so while you know, we think about like Australia 0:17:06.573 --> 0:17:10.933 our population or New Zealand our population, we dwarf ancient Athens. 0:17:11.773 --> 0:17:14.773 And so there are just so many people of great 0:17:14.773 --> 0:17:19.093 intelligence and ability in our world, and how to pick 0:17:19.133 --> 0:17:21.613 which one of them would actually turn out to have 0:17:21.733 --> 0:17:24.773 the sort of stature of an Aristotle or a Plato 0:17:25.293 --> 0:17:30.453 in two centuries time or a millennia. Goodness, it's very, 0:17:30.573 --> 0:17:34.173 very hard to gauge whether there are any like that. 0:17:34.733 --> 0:17:37.213 I really would hesitate to try to answer that question, 0:17:37.293 --> 0:17:38.933 and that might sound like it seemed like a cop out. 0:17:39.733 --> 0:17:41.773 That's my honest and truthful answer. 0:17:41.573 --> 0:17:44.293 And that's what we want. But there seems to be 0:17:44.893 --> 0:17:48.533 a flux of It's not for the first time, and 0:17:48.573 --> 0:17:51.413 maybe it's been more continuous than I realized, but of 0:17:51.533 --> 0:17:56.853 German philosophers, and I'll throw out Jurgen Harbamas for instance, 0:17:57.013 --> 0:18:01.373 who are having a growing influence more than we are 0:18:01.493 --> 0:18:03.453 used to, more than we're familiar with. It might be 0:18:03.493 --> 0:18:04.253 a better way to put it. 0:18:05.413 --> 0:18:08.173 Yes, I think so, I mean the inflance of people 0:18:08.413 --> 0:18:11.373 Jigen Harbermarsen and other figures that our minds might go to. 0:18:12.813 --> 0:18:15.133 It turns on the fact that many of these people 0:18:15.173 --> 0:18:18.773 are academics like me, you know, we're full time professional 0:18:19.533 --> 0:18:24.533 philosophers or teachers in the universities. And while it's true 0:18:24.573 --> 0:18:28.973 that people like Harbamus and others are having significant influence 0:18:29.933 --> 0:18:34.093 in the way that people think, what's noticeable it seems 0:18:34.133 --> 0:18:36.933 to me is that if you were to ask me, 0:18:37.453 --> 0:18:42.373 you know who in our times has had influence, my 0:18:42.453 --> 0:18:45.853 mind actually interestingly turned to the founders of the American constitution, 0:18:46.173 --> 0:18:49.853 like James Madison, for example. And why it comes to 0:18:49.853 --> 0:18:53.413 mind is what's interesting about these figures is they weren't 0:18:53.453 --> 0:18:58.373 just pure philosophers. They were practicing politicians. They were statesmen, 0:18:58.653 --> 0:19:02.253 They ran farms and businesses, and at the same time 0:19:02.533 --> 0:19:07.733 they undertook or engaged in philosophy and theoretical reflection on politics. 0:19:08.413 --> 0:19:14.453 So they were more like renaissance men, if I can 0:19:14.533 --> 0:19:21.173 use that expression, broadly educated, but also broadly and practically experienced. So, 0:19:21.293 --> 0:19:24.853 not wanting to pour too much cold water on the 0:19:24.893 --> 0:19:27.693 thought that someone like Jurgen Habermass will turn out to 0:19:27.693 --> 0:19:30.213 be a significant figure, I'm actually not so sure that 0:19:30.253 --> 0:19:34.093 he will in the long run. And what I think 0:19:34.173 --> 0:19:37.653 is noticeable is that. And I suppose I'm being critical 0:19:37.653 --> 0:19:41.533 of my own class, but the academic class we do 0:19:41.653 --> 0:19:44.533 live in ivory towers. That expression exists for a reason 0:19:45.253 --> 0:19:48.173 because really have any sense of what it means to 0:19:48.213 --> 0:19:53.093 put our ideas into real practice. And it shows when 0:19:53.253 --> 0:19:58.813 academics actually are given some responsibility administrative responsibility in universities, 0:19:58.813 --> 0:20:02.973 they don't act necessarily better than the politicians that they 0:20:03.013 --> 0:20:06.373 so like to criticize from the sidelines. So it's the 0:20:06.413 --> 0:20:09.413 people that can actually put things into but also think 0:20:09.493 --> 0:20:11.813 deeply about it that I think I admire the most, 0:20:12.613 --> 0:20:15.173 and the ones that had the most lasting impact past. 0:20:15.933 --> 0:20:18.573 It's not a secret that I have a fascination with 0:20:18.653 --> 0:20:23.213 the American Constitution, a long standing one and an ever 0:20:23.493 --> 0:20:26.973 increasing one at the moment. And I've had a couple 0:20:27.053 --> 0:20:32.613 of letters over the last few weeks suggesting, not criticizing, 0:20:32.773 --> 0:20:35.653 but just suggesting that when I love the podcast, they're 0:20:35.693 --> 0:20:40.053 not really interested in the American situation. I wonder how 0:20:40.133 --> 0:20:46.453 you would justify on my part my interest and its value. 0:20:47.133 --> 0:20:49.813 I think for two reasons. But I have to say 0:20:49.813 --> 0:20:51.733 I'm answering this as an Australian, which is a little 0:20:51.733 --> 0:20:57.933 easier because the reason that's procure or particular to Australia 0:20:58.093 --> 0:21:01.693 is that the design of the American Constitution had an 0:21:01.813 --> 0:21:06.093 enormous influence on the design of the Australian constitution. And 0:21:06.173 --> 0:21:09.973 so that's why Australia has a certain if we're doing 0:21:10.013 --> 0:21:16.173 comparative constitutional law, trying to compare political systems, the United 0:21:16.213 --> 0:21:21.293 States alongside perhaps Canada, the two countries to which Australia 0:21:21.413 --> 0:21:25.493 is just most easily compared. So that's one reason why I, personally, 0:21:25.533 --> 0:21:28.693 and it's not answering your question, find the American system 0:21:28.773 --> 0:21:31.613 very relevant. I think the second one, though, is that 0:21:31.693 --> 0:21:34.813 it's just undoubted that the United States has become the 0:21:34.853 --> 0:21:40.173 dominant power of our generations, and therefore our interest in 0:21:40.213 --> 0:21:43.253 it is driven by its success and its power. I 0:21:43.253 --> 0:21:48.253 think that's why the Roman Empire has continued to be 0:21:49.413 --> 0:21:53.453 a topic of perennial interest, because it was the dominant 0:21:53.533 --> 0:21:58.773 power over Europe as we know it today, and Europe 0:21:58.853 --> 0:22:02.253 evolved out of what remained of that empire, and so 0:22:02.293 --> 0:22:05.533 people look back to their roots and you sort of 0:22:06.173 --> 0:22:09.973 the sort of a gravitational force the powerful and the successful. 0:22:11.293 --> 0:22:14.733 Over time, though there's always an ebb and flow in 0:22:15.013 --> 0:22:19.533 imperial and power and the strength of nations. And so 0:22:20.893 --> 0:22:23.973 you know, probably two or three generations ago, people would 0:22:23.973 --> 0:22:26.973 have thought that the British Empire was the most significant 0:22:27.013 --> 0:22:31.493 objective inquiry, and I think that's only the case. You 0:22:31.533 --> 0:22:35.133 saw that a lot of people very interested in the 0:22:35.133 --> 0:22:39.333 British system of government because it as the British Empire 0:22:39.333 --> 0:22:43.133 spread throughout the world, they established Westminster systems of government. 0:22:43.133 --> 0:22:46.893 We call them Westminster systems after you know that small 0:22:47.013 --> 0:22:50.213 area in London called Westminster where the houses of Parliament 0:22:50.213 --> 0:22:54.653 are based. So I think our interest in these systems 0:22:54.733 --> 0:22:59.373 is largely driven by their power, their success, and the 0:22:59.413 --> 0:23:02.013 sense that well, they must be doing something right. So 0:23:02.093 --> 0:23:04.613 let's try and understand how it works and see how 0:23:04.693 --> 0:23:07.333 much we can emulate that success in our own nations. 0:23:08.533 --> 0:23:12.213 Then go back to whether democracy is under under threat 0:23:13.893 --> 0:23:17.613 and make mention of immigration, in particular the number of 0:23:17.613 --> 0:23:24.453 people who have been pouring into into countries Britain of course, America, 0:23:24.573 --> 0:23:31.053 of course, Germany, Europe in general. Not so much in 0:23:31.213 --> 0:23:35.053 our part of the world, but we are getting concerned 0:23:35.053 --> 0:23:36.973 about it. I think on both sides of the Tasman 0:23:38.853 --> 0:23:45.333 is immigration a threat to the lifestyle and the systems 0:23:45.333 --> 0:23:47.853 that we have set up. And I'm talking, of course, 0:23:48.173 --> 0:23:53.533 because of the because of the competitive nature of those 0:23:53.653 --> 0:23:56.373 who are coming in for what they have left behind. 0:23:58.733 --> 0:24:03.293 It's a really serious question I think that our country 0:24:03.693 --> 0:24:05.933 are having to grapple with at this point in time. 0:24:06.573 --> 0:24:08.973 And I know it's a highly charged question and a 0:24:09.053 --> 0:24:12.773 highly emotive question as well. I mean, I myself, I've 0:24:12.813 --> 0:24:17.133 got Greek heritage. You know, my grandparents came to Australia 0:24:17.173 --> 0:24:22.253 from Greece. They were migrants themselves. It seems to me 0:24:22.373 --> 0:24:26.853 that well, what's a very interesting thing is when these 0:24:26.853 --> 0:24:31.693 debates arise, they sometimes occur in a certain heated environment, 0:24:32.493 --> 0:24:38.213 and other points of interest or other issues are sometimes overlooked. 0:24:38.453 --> 0:24:40.413 And what I want to draw attention to is this 0:24:40.533 --> 0:24:44.093 is that I've done a lot of reading lately about 0:24:45.013 --> 0:24:51.693 the relationships between ethnic, linguistic and religious diversity and how 0:24:51.813 --> 0:24:56.013 economically successful a country is or how politically stable the 0:24:56.013 --> 0:24:59.933 country is. Now, this is very quantitative data. What these 0:24:59.973 --> 0:25:03.013 people do, with social scientists and sometimes economists, is that 0:25:03.053 --> 0:25:08.693 they try to measure just how ethnically or religiously, or 0:25:08.773 --> 0:25:13.133 linguistically or culturally diversit country is, or how polarized it is, 0:25:14.213 --> 0:25:16.933 and then they try to work out how stable it is, 0:25:17.253 --> 0:25:20.853 how economically prosperous it is, and those sorts of measures, 0:25:21.253 --> 0:25:24.053 and they do this for every country in the world, 0:25:24.533 --> 0:25:27.453 and they try to do it at particular periods of time, 0:25:27.893 --> 0:25:29.733 and they try to look to see whether there are 0:25:29.733 --> 0:25:34.493 correlations between one or the other. And so it seems 0:25:34.493 --> 0:25:36.773 to me that the very premise of that sort of 0:25:36.773 --> 0:25:40.093 an inquiry, and to some extent the findings of that research, 0:25:40.733 --> 0:25:43.053 is to say that you have to be very careful 0:25:43.253 --> 0:25:49.373 about too much diversity, particularly when it's done in a 0:25:49.413 --> 0:25:52.733 way or develops in a way that stops people talking 0:25:52.773 --> 0:25:55.373 to each other. And this comes back to the point 0:25:55.373 --> 0:26:00.293 about freedom of speech, actually because what is startling? Actually 0:26:00.333 --> 0:26:01.733 to me it was, and then I thought about it 0:26:01.733 --> 0:26:03.693 while I thought, yes, actually, that makes a lot of sense. 0:26:03.853 --> 0:26:07.173 Is that while we sometimes pay a lot of attention 0:26:07.333 --> 0:26:13.613 to ethnic difference or religious difference, the biggest factor that 0:26:13.813 --> 0:26:19.613 has and can have a bad effect on the stability 0:26:19.653 --> 0:26:24.293 of the country and its paticefulness is linguistic diversity. In 0:26:24.333 --> 0:26:28.853 other words, people who speak different languages and cannot understand 0:26:28.893 --> 0:26:33.053 each other. And reflecting on that, it seems to me 0:26:33.533 --> 0:26:37.453 that that's probably the most significant issue that you have 0:26:37.533 --> 0:26:40.813