1 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:12,013 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks it be 2 00:00:12,413 --> 00:00:16,213 Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,773 --> 00:00:19,773 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,813 --> 00:00:24,893 Speaker 1: the information, all the debate of us now the Layton 5 00:00:25,013 --> 00:00:27,733 Speaker 1: Smith podcast cowered by news Talks it b. 6 00:00:28,253 --> 00:00:31,653 Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty five for September eleventh, 7 00:00:31,733 --> 00:00:35,213 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. When John Graham died, it was a 8 00:00:35,253 --> 00:00:38,133 Speaker 2: great loss to many many people and to the country. 9 00:00:38,373 --> 00:00:41,933 Speaker 2: He was an educationalist, headmaster of Auckland Grammar for twenty 10 00:00:41,973 --> 00:00:45,293 Speaker 2: one years. He was a rugby player of the highest order, 11 00:00:45,733 --> 00:00:49,293 Speaker 2: playing twenty two Tests three as the All Blacks captain. 12 00:00:49,973 --> 00:00:52,453 Speaker 2: But most of all, I'd say his greatest achievement was 13 00:00:52,813 --> 00:00:56,253 Speaker 2: the positive influence that he had on so many lives. 14 00:00:56,973 --> 00:01:00,373 Speaker 2: For those who, for whatever reason, are unfamiliar with his name, 15 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:03,693 Speaker 2: Sir John Graham was a legend one of the greatest 16 00:01:04,053 --> 00:01:08,173 Speaker 2: Maxim Institute, of which he was a founding trustee, as 17 00:01:08,453 --> 00:01:12,573 Speaker 2: being responsible for establishing and maintaining the Sir John Graham 18 00:01:12,653 --> 00:01:18,253 Speaker 2: Annual Lecture. This year was the fourteenth such event. Every 19 00:01:18,333 --> 00:01:22,213 Speaker 2: year Maxim produces a guest speaker of considerable talent this 20 00:01:22,293 --> 00:01:26,253 Speaker 2: year's speaker was Nicholas Herony, Professor of Constitutional Law at 21 00:01:26,293 --> 00:01:31,173 Speaker 2: the University of Queensland. The title was The Compass of Character. 22 00:01:31,773 --> 00:01:35,733 Speaker 2: Sir John would have approved. Nicholas Arony guests in podcast 23 00:01:35,813 --> 00:01:38,853 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty five and we discussed the subject 24 00:01:38,893 --> 00:01:42,733 Speaker 2: of his speech, but only after we traversed a number 25 00:01:42,773 --> 00:01:48,053 Speaker 2: of other issues, beginning with democracy and challenges, of which 26 00:01:48,093 --> 00:01:52,013 Speaker 2: there are many. Layton Smith speaking of character. In a 27 00:01:52,053 --> 00:01:55,493 Speaker 2: few hours and the so called presidential debate will be 28 00:01:55,653 --> 00:01:58,373 Speaker 2: live on TV, and at that point this podcast will 29 00:01:58,413 --> 00:02:01,893 Speaker 2: be ready for release, which will likely be during the debate. 30 00:02:02,053 --> 00:02:05,853 Speaker 2: So I cannot comment on the battle that so many 31 00:02:05,853 --> 00:02:07,973 Speaker 2: people are wanting it to be and hanging out for. 32 00:02:08,573 --> 00:02:10,973 Speaker 2: I can't comment on that because I won't be in. 33 00:02:10,893 --> 00:02:11,493 Speaker 3: A position to. 34 00:02:12,093 --> 00:02:14,853 Speaker 2: But what I've decided to do is to quote you 35 00:02:14,933 --> 00:02:18,173 Speaker 2: an opinion as a way of setup, and you're most 36 00:02:18,253 --> 00:02:21,573 Speaker 2: likely to be hearing this opinion after you've seen or 37 00:02:21,653 --> 00:02:25,213 Speaker 2: heard reports on the debate and how it went. This 38 00:02:25,253 --> 00:02:28,733 Speaker 2: is a commentary written by Carrie Lucas, who is president 39 00:02:28,973 --> 00:02:33,253 Speaker 2: of Independent Women's Forum in the United States. It's intriguing 40 00:02:33,293 --> 00:02:35,133 Speaker 2: because you've got to be able to make a judgment. 41 00:02:35,253 --> 00:02:38,813 Speaker 2: Call on the debate as you've seen it, and compare 42 00:02:38,813 --> 00:02:43,133 Speaker 2: it with this. Kamala Harris's campaign is making women look 43 00:02:43,533 --> 00:02:47,813 Speaker 2: incompetent is the title, Especially to those of us who 44 00:02:47,973 --> 00:02:50,853 Speaker 2: want to see a female president. It's so awful to 45 00:02:50,893 --> 00:02:53,453 Speaker 2: have a candidate who is so obviously not up to 46 00:02:53,493 --> 00:02:57,013 Speaker 2: the job. Carrie Lucas writes, I want every little girl 47 00:02:57,013 --> 00:03:00,213 Speaker 2: across our country to know this. You can do anything, 48 00:03:00,613 --> 00:03:03,613 Speaker 2: even if it's never been done before. Said in August 49 00:03:03,813 --> 00:03:08,973 Speaker 2: twenty six x post from the Kamala Harris Tim Wallson campaign. 50 00:03:09,853 --> 00:03:14,053 Speaker 2: It's vapid and cliche, the kind of feel good self 51 00:03:14,053 --> 00:03:17,533 Speaker 2: help speak that should be avoided during the serious business 52 00:03:17,533 --> 00:03:20,013 Speaker 2: of electing the leader of the free world. Yet it 53 00:03:20,173 --> 00:03:25,453 Speaker 2: speaks to the uncomfortable truth for women. Closely following this campaign, 54 00:03:25,893 --> 00:03:29,933 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris is trading new ground as the first female 55 00:03:30,013 --> 00:03:33,653 Speaker 2: vice president and someone with a serious shot at becoming 56 00:03:33,653 --> 00:03:36,893 Speaker 2: America's first female president. You don't have to be a 57 00:03:37,013 --> 00:03:41,493 Speaker 2: dei enthusiast to recognize that the first female president will 58 00:03:41,493 --> 00:03:44,973 Speaker 2: have a special place in the history books as the 59 00:03:44,973 --> 00:03:48,653 Speaker 2: culmination of the centuries long fight for women's rights in 60 00:03:48,693 --> 00:03:52,853 Speaker 2: the United States. That's also why it's so awful to 61 00:03:52,853 --> 00:03:56,653 Speaker 2: have a female presidential candidate who is so obviously not 62 00:03:57,173 --> 00:04:02,373 Speaker 2: up to the job. Subheading, Americans would elect a woman, 63 00:04:03,333 --> 00:04:07,013 Speaker 2: but this one isn't Ready. Surveys suggest Americans are willing, 64 00:04:07,173 --> 00:04:12,053 Speaker 2: even eager, to vote for a evil candidate. Harris's campaign 65 00:04:12,653 --> 00:04:18,093 Speaker 2: is predicated on this. Publicly, the campaign hand rings about 66 00:04:18,133 --> 00:04:21,813 Speaker 2: how sexism against women is a formidable obstacle that the 67 00:04:21,853 --> 00:04:25,773 Speaker 2: trailblazing Kamala must overcome. In a country of nearly one 68 00:04:25,853 --> 00:04:29,093 Speaker 2: hundred and seventy million registered voters, undoubtedly at least a 69 00:04:29,133 --> 00:04:34,573 Speaker 2: few simply will not vote for any woman. Female candidates looks, 70 00:04:34,853 --> 00:04:40,053 Speaker 2: wardrobe decisions, and personal histories likely are generally subject to 71 00:04:40,573 --> 00:04:44,413 Speaker 2: greater press scrutiny than that of the average male candidate. 72 00:04:44,733 --> 00:04:47,373 Speaker 2: And yet it's also clear that Kamala sex is her 73 00:04:47,813 --> 00:04:50,573 Speaker 2: greatest asset. I will skip the rest of this It's 74 00:04:50,613 --> 00:04:55,973 Speaker 2: fairly long subheading the campaign Women Deserve Harris could have 75 00:04:56,013 --> 00:04:59,613 Speaker 2: offered Americans a very different campaign. She could have boldly 76 00:04:59,693 --> 00:05:04,333 Speaker 2: defended the Biden Harris administration as a success that deserves 77 00:05:04,373 --> 00:05:08,173 Speaker 2: another four years, or explained how as president she would 78 00:05:08,493 --> 00:05:12,333 Speaker 2: but on a few critical policy issues, Americans might have 79 00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:15,013 Speaker 2: given her points for admitting that mistakes were made in 80 00:05:15,053 --> 00:05:19,693 Speaker 2: good faith under President Biden and Harris's watch. Americans might 81 00:05:19,693 --> 00:05:22,573 Speaker 2: have appreciated the honesty of saying that three years in 82 00:05:22,653 --> 00:05:27,253 Speaker 2: office taught her important lessons and she plans to course correct. 83 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:31,133 Speaker 2: She could have fearlessly revisited her twenty twenty primary statements 84 00:05:31,333 --> 00:05:33,773 Speaker 2: and described the process by which she has come to 85 00:05:34,013 --> 00:05:41,613 Speaker 2: moderate her positions subheading deep inside Carmelin knows that she's incompetent, 86 00:05:41,973 --> 00:05:44,813 Speaker 2: and this is worth reading its entirety, which is fairly short. Anyway, 87 00:05:45,293 --> 00:05:48,573 Speaker 2: she enabled the Trump campaign to make Kamala v. Kamala 88 00:05:48,813 --> 00:05:53,933 Speaker 2: ads to expose her competing policy positions and reveal her 89 00:05:53,973 --> 00:05:57,213 Speaker 2: as a chameleon. She confirmed the suspicion that her party 90 00:05:57,253 --> 00:06:01,493 Speaker 2: doesn't trust her to handle serious questions or to articulate 91 00:06:01,533 --> 00:06:04,573 Speaker 2: her party's policy agenda. They believe that she must be 92 00:06:04,653 --> 00:06:08,333 Speaker 2: kept with notes behind a teleprompter. Hillary Clinton didn't not 93 00:06:08,533 --> 00:06:11,133 Speaker 2: act like this. Nikki Hayley didn't ask a man to 94 00:06:11,213 --> 00:06:15,293 Speaker 2: tag along for big interviews. Why is Kamala allowing herself 95 00:06:15,293 --> 00:06:19,573 Speaker 2: to be treated like she's incompetent? It's because of the 96 00:06:19,613 --> 00:06:23,973 Speaker 2: worst truth of all. She believes it too. You can 97 00:06:24,013 --> 00:06:28,573 Speaker 2: see her self doubt during any unscripted moment. Each sentence 98 00:06:28,653 --> 00:06:32,813 Speaker 2: is a dangerous high wire act. She's in her head, 99 00:06:33,213 --> 00:06:37,213 Speaker 2: second guessing every word she utters, hearing herself get tongue 100 00:06:37,253 --> 00:06:40,573 Speaker 2: tied and falling back on the verbal tics that her 101 00:06:40,613 --> 00:06:46,693 Speaker 2: campaign coaches have clearly flagged as poison. Subheading. She can't 102 00:06:46,693 --> 00:06:50,133 Speaker 2: even do a CNN interview herself, and we know the 103 00:06:50,173 --> 00:06:54,773 Speaker 2: story behind that. Yes, many of us, she concludes, many 104 00:06:54,813 --> 00:06:57,253 Speaker 2: of us do look forward to the day that we 105 00:06:57,373 --> 00:07:00,813 Speaker 2: have a madam president, but not enough to buy the 106 00:07:00,893 --> 00:07:06,093 Speaker 2: scam being sold us today. We know we deserve better. Well, 107 00:07:07,053 --> 00:07:10,093 Speaker 2: make your own judgment call based on the comments of 108 00:07:10,533 --> 00:07:15,973 Speaker 2: Carrie Lucas, president of the Independent Women's Forum, and what 109 00:07:16,173 --> 00:07:21,253 Speaker 2: you see or hear of the so called presidential debate, 110 00:07:21,893 --> 00:07:25,173 Speaker 2: because not really in a few hours time now, in 111 00:07:25,253 --> 00:07:40,973 Speaker 2: a moment, Professor Nicholas a'rony Layton Smith, there are essential 112 00:07:41,053 --> 00:07:43,613 Speaker 2: fat nutrients that we need in our diet as the 113 00:07:43,613 --> 00:07:47,053 Speaker 2: body can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and Amiga 114 00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:51,093 Speaker 2: six fatty acids. 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Always read the label and 133 00:08:57,493 --> 00:09:01,573 Speaker 2: users directed and if symptoms persist, seeing your healthcare professional. 134 00:09:01,813 --> 00:09:13,093 Speaker 2: Farmer Broker Auckland Nicholas Aroni is a professor of Law 135 00:09:13,093 --> 00:09:17,413 Speaker 2: at the University of Queensland, specializing in constitutional law, which 136 00:09:17,693 --> 00:09:20,053 Speaker 2: for me at the moment as one of the most 137 00:09:20,093 --> 00:09:24,573 Speaker 2: interesting legal topics on the planet. He is here for 138 00:09:24,653 --> 00:09:27,773 Speaker 2: the annual Sir John Graham Lecture and that lecture is 139 00:09:27,893 --> 00:09:31,893 Speaker 2: entitled The Compass of Character, and the lecture is very interesting. 140 00:09:32,253 --> 00:09:35,013 Speaker 2: I know this because I got some advanced notes. So, 141 00:09:35,133 --> 00:09:37,053 Speaker 2: Nicholas Roney, it's great to have you on the Latent 142 00:09:37,093 --> 00:09:40,853 Speaker 2: Smith podcast. You're much appreciated, I am told by the 143 00:09:40,853 --> 00:09:46,453 Speaker 2: Maxim Institute for which you are delivering the aforementioned lecture. 144 00:09:47,733 --> 00:09:49,453 Speaker 3: Look, it's a real pleasure to be here with you. 145 00:09:49,573 --> 00:09:51,773 Speaker 3: Laden thank you very much for the opportunity to talk 146 00:09:51,813 --> 00:09:53,133 Speaker 3: with you always. 147 00:09:53,653 --> 00:09:56,613 Speaker 2: Now I want to start with something apart from the lecture. 148 00:09:56,653 --> 00:09:58,533 Speaker 2: We'll get to it, of course, because that's the anchor 149 00:09:58,573 --> 00:10:02,373 Speaker 2: for the conversation. I've got a couple of questions for 150 00:10:02,493 --> 00:10:08,173 Speaker 2: you that are very simple. Particularly the first one, can 151 00:10:08,213 --> 00:10:12,453 Speaker 2: you give us your definition of what democracy is? 152 00:10:13,373 --> 00:10:15,973 Speaker 3: Goodness, that's a great question. It's not so much a 153 00:10:16,013 --> 00:10:19,773 Speaker 3: simple question. Actually. I think that democracy has to do 154 00:10:19,853 --> 00:10:23,453 Speaker 3: with participation in your own self government. I don't think 155 00:10:23,453 --> 00:10:26,973 Speaker 3: it's simply something that you do when you vote every 156 00:10:26,973 --> 00:10:30,693 Speaker 3: three or four years for candidates for election. I do 157 00:10:30,733 --> 00:10:33,453 Speaker 3: think that's an important part of how our representative system 158 00:10:33,453 --> 00:10:38,533 Speaker 3: of democracy works. But the very ancient definition of democracy 159 00:10:38,573 --> 00:10:42,093 Speaker 3: is to participate in your own self government. And one 160 00:10:42,133 --> 00:10:44,773 Speaker 3: of the interesting things that goes along with that understanding 161 00:10:44,773 --> 00:10:48,053 Speaker 3: of democracy is that it can only really work at 162 00:10:48,053 --> 00:10:52,493 Speaker 3: that highest level at a local level, ironically, because it's 163 00:10:52,533 --> 00:10:56,613 Speaker 3: only at a local level that people are really effectively 164 00:10:56,693 --> 00:11:00,333 Speaker 3: able to participate in their own self government. Bigger the 165 00:11:00,373 --> 00:11:03,373 Speaker 3: country gets, the bigger the number of people, the more 166 00:11:03,373 --> 00:11:06,653 Speaker 3: distant the government gets from people. So that's my essential 167 00:11:06,693 --> 00:11:09,013 Speaker 3: and underlying definition of democracy. 168 00:11:09,133 --> 00:11:13,093 Speaker 2: What does it involve apart from just voting, I mean, 169 00:11:13,133 --> 00:11:14,413 Speaker 2: i'd start with free speech. 170 00:11:14,813 --> 00:11:19,253 Speaker 3: Well, yes, precisely. So, participating in your own self government 171 00:11:19,333 --> 00:11:23,693 Speaker 3: has to do with engaging in discourse, discussion, debate, speech 172 00:11:24,493 --> 00:11:28,933 Speaker 3: about political matters. That's always been seen as very essential 173 00:11:28,973 --> 00:11:32,333 Speaker 3: and central to the process of participating in your own 174 00:11:32,373 --> 00:11:36,453 Speaker 3: self government, because in a sense, we're talking about politics, 175 00:11:36,653 --> 00:11:40,293 Speaker 3: and we're talking about how we govern ourselves collectively, and 176 00:11:40,333 --> 00:11:43,693 Speaker 3: so to participate in your own self government collectively with 177 00:11:43,773 --> 00:11:47,733 Speaker 3: other people, it's essential that you communicate with those people 178 00:11:47,773 --> 00:11:50,933 Speaker 3: that we all together talk about how we're to be 179 00:11:50,973 --> 00:11:55,333 Speaker 3: governed and make decisions together after listening to each other's arguments, 180 00:11:55,733 --> 00:11:58,493 Speaker 3: the reasons each gives for certain policies and so forth. 181 00:11:58,933 --> 00:12:03,053 Speaker 2: So it extends beyond that, of course, to liberty in general. 182 00:12:04,093 --> 00:12:08,533 Speaker 2: And on that basis, I'm going to ask you whether democracy, 183 00:12:08,613 --> 00:12:12,053 Speaker 2: in your opinion, is under threats in various places on 184 00:12:12,093 --> 00:12:12,573 Speaker 2: the planet. 185 00:12:13,213 --> 00:12:16,333 Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, it's a good question, because, of course there's 186 00:12:16,373 --> 00:12:20,093 Speaker 3: a lot of concern about that possibility and certain developments 187 00:12:20,133 --> 00:12:23,133 Speaker 3: that are occurring in many countries. It seems to me 188 00:12:23,213 --> 00:12:27,813 Speaker 3: that because I define democracy as something that happens best 189 00:12:27,853 --> 00:12:31,773 Speaker 3: at a more local level, the underminding, sorry, the underlying 190 00:12:32,373 --> 00:12:36,893 Speaker 3: challenge to democracy happens when you try to spread democracy 191 00:12:37,013 --> 00:12:40,413 Speaker 3: over too larger compass, and then what happens is the 192 00:12:40,453 --> 00:12:44,053 Speaker 3: government gets more and more distant from people, and power 193 00:12:44,093 --> 00:12:47,733 Speaker 3: becomes more and more centralized in the government, and then 194 00:12:47,813 --> 00:12:51,933 Speaker 3: the people who rule so distantly begin to just govern 195 00:12:52,333 --> 00:12:56,973 Speaker 3: more autocratically or more independently of public opinion. And I 196 00:12:57,013 --> 00:13:01,333 Speaker 3: think that that's the underlying problem. If democracy is under threat, 197 00:13:01,653 --> 00:13:04,173 Speaker 3: I think across the world, and I wouldn't even refer 198 00:13:04,293 --> 00:13:06,413 Speaker 3: simply to the countries that most people think of it 199 00:13:06,453 --> 00:13:11,053 Speaker 3: as being under threat. But even in our favored Western democracies, 200 00:13:11,093 --> 00:13:16,173 Speaker 3: what we're seeing is increasing centralization and an increasing concentration 201 00:13:16,293 --> 00:13:19,733 Speaker 3: of power in what we call the executive government, which 202 00:13:19,773 --> 00:13:24,093 Speaker 3: is distinct from our parliaments. During COVID, for example, across 203 00:13:24,133 --> 00:13:26,653 Speaker 3: the world, we saw virtually all the nations of the world, 204 00:13:27,533 --> 00:13:33,293 Speaker 3: even the Western democracies, relying on and functioning through an 205 00:13:33,293 --> 00:13:37,853 Speaker 3: extraordinary concentration of power in the executive, and parliaments were 206 00:13:37,893 --> 00:13:41,413 Speaker 3: shunted out of the process had little or no say 207 00:13:41,573 --> 00:13:45,613 Speaker 3: at all about how COVID was managed. So if democracy 208 00:13:45,653 --> 00:13:50,093 Speaker 3: is under threat, it's because our political systems have become 209 00:13:50,333 --> 00:13:53,773 Speaker 3: so increasingly centralized that when a crisis comes along like that, 210 00:13:54,013 --> 00:13:57,493 Speaker 3: or a perceived crisis comes along, the executive takes the 211 00:13:57,573 --> 00:14:01,373 Speaker 3: reins and starts to govern just simply on the basis 212 00:14:01,373 --> 00:14:03,533 Speaker 3: of the decisions of the executive. 213 00:14:04,253 --> 00:14:06,933 Speaker 2: Another name for that would be the administrative states. 214 00:14:08,333 --> 00:14:11,413 Speaker 3: Related to the administrative state. Yes, it is. It is 215 00:14:11,493 --> 00:14:14,773 Speaker 3: because when we speak the administrative state, we're speaking of, 216 00:14:15,493 --> 00:14:20,093 Speaker 3: as it were, the bureaucratic apparatus of the executive. Because 217 00:14:21,093 --> 00:14:25,133 Speaker 3: we think of the executive interestingly, we regard the executive 218 00:14:25,133 --> 00:14:28,773 Speaker 3: as a highly unified thing. Ultimately, that executive power is 219 00:14:28,853 --> 00:14:33,773 Speaker 3: a singular power, but then it's exercise through many persons 220 00:14:33,853 --> 00:14:37,533 Speaker 3: who exercise it in practicalities, but they are all in 221 00:14:37,613 --> 00:14:41,133 Speaker 3: principle subject to the rule and guidance and direction of 222 00:14:41,173 --> 00:14:45,093 Speaker 3: the One, as it were. It's interesting. I mean, I 223 00:14:45,133 --> 00:14:48,453 Speaker 3: don't think we quite realize that. If stole and looked 224 00:14:48,453 --> 00:14:52,213 Speaker 3: at our systems, he would say, wow, you're not really democracies. 225 00:14:52,653 --> 00:14:56,173 Speaker 3: You are sort of mixed constitutions with an awful lot 226 00:14:56,213 --> 00:15:00,373 Speaker 3: of monarchy. And he would say that because he means 227 00:15:00,453 --> 00:15:02,973 Speaker 3: the rule of the one, and he'd be looking at 228 00:15:03,133 --> 00:15:05,733 Speaker 3: our systems and notice just how much the power of 229 00:15:05,893 --> 00:15:09,893 Speaker 3: just one central focus of authority he plays such a 230 00:15:10,013 --> 00:15:13,213 Speaker 3: very significant role in the politics of our times. 231 00:15:13,493 --> 00:15:17,133 Speaker 2: Now you it wasn't you. There was a little blick, 232 00:15:17,693 --> 00:15:20,733 Speaker 2: and when you mentioned the name, we didn't quite catch it. 233 00:15:20,813 --> 00:15:26,133 Speaker 2: I presume he said Socrates. Oh, I said Aristotle, all right, Aristotle. 234 00:15:26,413 --> 00:15:30,853 Speaker 3: Yeah. Aristotle was the great political philosopher of ancient Athens 235 00:15:30,853 --> 00:15:34,653 Speaker 3: who was so good at analyzing systems, and he very 236 00:15:34,813 --> 00:15:39,053 Speaker 3: very insightfully said that we can break down systems into 237 00:15:39,133 --> 00:15:41,973 Speaker 3: whether they involve the rule of the one or the few, 238 00:15:42,213 --> 00:15:45,013 Speaker 3: or the many and the rule of the one he 239 00:15:45,053 --> 00:15:47,733 Speaker 3: called monarchy, And he didn't have in mind the idea 240 00:15:47,773 --> 00:15:50,413 Speaker 3: of a hereditary monarchy, because today we think of monarchy 241 00:15:50,453 --> 00:15:53,893 Speaker 3: as been king of Queen of England and as a 242 00:15:53,973 --> 00:15:57,493 Speaker 3: hereditary position and you don't elect them. But Aristotle, that's 243 00:15:57,533 --> 00:16:01,133 Speaker 3: not really very relevant. What's really most crucial is whether 244 00:16:01,173 --> 00:16:04,453 Speaker 3: it's just one person who rules, a few people who rule, 245 00:16:04,693 --> 00:16:09,813 Speaker 3: or the many who rule. And he analyzed political systems 246 00:16:09,813 --> 00:16:13,213 Speaker 3: in those terms, and I think it's very illuminating because 247 00:16:13,253 --> 00:16:16,693 Speaker 3: we've lost sight of that, and we congratulate ourselves on 248 00:16:16,813 --> 00:16:20,253 Speaker 3: being democracies when we have very, very vast tracks of 249 00:16:20,533 --> 00:16:23,413 Speaker 3: both monarchy and aristocracy in our systems. 250 00:16:23,773 --> 00:16:27,573 Speaker 2: Is a question both Aristotle and Socrates and others, but 251 00:16:27,613 --> 00:16:31,373 Speaker 2: those two in particular lent their intelligence to the world 252 00:16:31,453 --> 00:16:36,213 Speaker 2: for virtually ever. Is there the equivalent today in existence? 253 00:16:36,253 --> 00:16:39,333 Speaker 2: Can you name me somebody or a couple of people 254 00:16:39,373 --> 00:16:42,053 Speaker 2: would be even better, who would fall, who you'd put 255 00:16:42,093 --> 00:16:47,573 Speaker 2: into the same category of intellect and influence as those two. 256 00:16:48,973 --> 00:16:52,213 Speaker 3: Goodness? That is a tough question to ask. I don't 257 00:16:52,253 --> 00:16:54,613 Speaker 3: think I can answer that. The reason why it is 258 00:16:54,613 --> 00:16:58,253 Speaker 3: probably two reasons, and one is that we live in 259 00:16:58,293 --> 00:17:01,133 Speaker 3: a time where the population of the world is immense, 260 00:17:02,213 --> 00:17:06,413 Speaker 3: and so while you know, we think about like Australia 261 00:17:06,573 --> 00:17:10,933 Speaker 3: our population or New Zealand our population, we dwarf ancient Athens. 262 00:17:11,773 --> 00:17:14,773 Speaker 3: And so there are just so many people of great 263 00:17:14,773 --> 00:17:19,093 Speaker 3: intelligence and ability in our world, and how to pick 264 00:17:19,133 --> 00:17:21,613 Speaker 3: which one of them would actually turn out to have 265 00:17:21,733 --> 00:17:24,773 Speaker 3: the sort of stature of an Aristotle or a Plato 266 00:17:25,293 --> 00:17:30,453 Speaker 3: in two centuries time or a millennia. Goodness, it's very, 267 00:17:30,573 --> 00:17:34,173 Speaker 3: very hard to gauge whether there are any like that. 268 00:17:34,733 --> 00:17:37,213 Speaker 3: I really would hesitate to try to answer that question, 269 00:17:37,293 --> 00:17:38,933 Speaker 3: and that might sound like it seemed like a cop out. 270 00:17:39,733 --> 00:17:41,773 Speaker 3: That's my honest and truthful answer. 271 00:17:41,573 --> 00:17:44,293 Speaker 2: And that's what we want. But there seems to be 272 00:17:44,893 --> 00:17:48,533 Speaker 2: a flux of It's not for the first time, and 273 00:17:48,573 --> 00:17:51,413 Speaker 2: maybe it's been more continuous than I realized, but of 274 00:17:51,533 --> 00:17:56,853 Speaker 2: German philosophers, and I'll throw out Jurgen Harbamas for instance, 275 00:17:57,013 --> 00:18:01,373 Speaker 2: who are having a growing influence more than we are 276 00:18:01,493 --> 00:18:03,453 Speaker 2: used to, more than we're familiar with. It might be 277 00:18:03,493 --> 00:18:04,253 Speaker 2: a better way to put it. 278 00:18:05,413 --> 00:18:08,173 Speaker 3: Yes, I think so, I mean the inflance of people 279 00:18:08,413 --> 00:18:11,373 Speaker 3: Jigen Harbermarsen and other figures that our minds might go to. 280 00:18:12,813 --> 00:18:15,133 Speaker 3: It turns on the fact that many of these people 281 00:18:15,173 --> 00:18:18,773 Speaker 3: are academics like me, you know, we're full time professional 282 00:18:19,533 --> 00:18:24,533 Speaker 3: philosophers or teachers in the universities. And while it's true 283 00:18:24,573 --> 00:18:28,973 Speaker 3: that people like Harbamus and others are having significant influence 284 00:18:29,933 --> 00:18:34,093 Speaker 3: in the way that people think, what's noticeable it seems 285 00:18:34,133 --> 00:18:36,933 Speaker 3: to me is that if you were to ask me, 286 00:18:37,453 --> 00:18:42,373 Speaker 3: you know who in our times has had influence, my 287 00:18:42,453 --> 00:18:45,853 Speaker 3: mind actually interestingly turned to the founders of the American constitution, 288 00:18:46,173 --> 00:18:49,853 Speaker 3: like James Madison, for example. And why it comes to 289 00:18:49,853 --> 00:18:53,413 Speaker 3: mind is what's interesting about these figures is they weren't 290 00:18:53,453 --> 00:18:58,373 Speaker 3: just pure philosophers. They were practicing politicians. They were statesmen, 291 00:18:58,653 --> 00:19:02,253 Speaker 3: They ran farms and businesses, and at the same time 292 00:19:02,533 --> 00:19:07,733 Speaker 3: they undertook or engaged in philosophy and theoretical reflection on politics. 293 00:19:08,413 --> 00:19:14,453 Speaker 3: So they were more like renaissance men, if I can 294 00:19:14,533 --> 00:19:21,173 Speaker 3: use that expression, broadly educated, but also broadly and practically experienced. So, 295 00:19:21,293 --> 00:19:24,853 Speaker 3: not wanting to pour too much cold water on the 296 00:19:24,893 --> 00:19:27,693 Speaker 3: thought that someone like Jurgen Habermass will turn out to 297 00:19:27,693 --> 00:19:30,213 Speaker 3: be a significant figure, I'm actually not so sure that 298 00:19:30,253 --> 00:19:34,093 Speaker 3: he will in the long run. And what I think 299 00:19:34,173 --> 00:19:37,653 Speaker 3: is noticeable is that. And I suppose I'm being critical 300 00:19:37,653 --> 00:19:41,533 Speaker 3: of my own class, but the academic class we do 301 00:19:41,653 --> 00:19:44,533 Speaker 3: live in ivory towers. That expression exists for a reason 302 00:19:45,253 --> 00:19:48,173 Speaker 3: because really have any sense of what it means to 303 00:19:48,213 --> 00:19:53,093 Speaker 3: put our ideas into real practice. And it shows when 304 00:19:53,253 --> 00:19:58,813 Speaker 3: academics actually are given some responsibility administrative responsibility in universities, 305 00:19:58,813 --> 00:20:02,973 Speaker 3: they don't act necessarily better than the politicians that they 306 00:20:03,013 --> 00:20:06,373 Speaker 3: so like to criticize from the sidelines. So it's the 307 00:20:06,413 --> 00:20:09,413 Speaker 3: people that can actually put things into but also think 308 00:20:09,493 --> 00:20:11,813 Speaker 3: deeply about it that I think I admire the most, 309 00:20:12,613 --> 00:20:15,173 Speaker 3: and the ones that had the most lasting impact past. 310 00:20:15,933 --> 00:20:18,573 Speaker 2: It's not a secret that I have a fascination with 311 00:20:18,653 --> 00:20:23,213 Speaker 2: the American Constitution, a long standing one and an ever 312 00:20:23,493 --> 00:20:26,973 Speaker 2: increasing one at the moment. And I've had a couple 313 00:20:27,053 --> 00:20:32,613 Speaker 2: of letters over the last few weeks suggesting, not criticizing, 314 00:20:32,773 --> 00:20:35,653 Speaker 2: but just suggesting that when I love the podcast, they're 315 00:20:35,693 --> 00:20:40,053 Speaker 2: not really interested in the American situation. I wonder how 316 00:20:40,133 --> 00:20:46,453 Speaker 2: you would justify on my part my interest and its value. 317 00:20:47,133 --> 00:20:49,813 Speaker 3: I think for two reasons. But I have to say 318 00:20:49,813 --> 00:20:51,733 Speaker 3: I'm answering this as an Australian, which is a little 319 00:20:51,733 --> 00:20:57,933 Speaker 3: easier because the reason that's procure or particular to Australia 320 00:20:58,093 --> 00:21:01,693 Speaker 3: is that the design of the American Constitution had an 321 00:21:01,813 --> 00:21:06,093 Speaker 3: enormous influence on the design of the Australian constitution. And 322 00:21:06,173 --> 00:21:09,973 Speaker 3: so that's why Australia has a certain if we're doing 323 00:21:10,013 --> 00:21:16,173 Speaker 3: comparative constitutional law, trying to compare political systems, the United 324 00:21:16,213 --> 00:21:21,293 Speaker 3: States alongside perhaps Canada, the two countries to which Australia 325 00:21:21,413 --> 00:21:25,493 Speaker 3: is just most easily compared. So that's one reason why I, personally, 326 00:21:25,533 --> 00:21:28,693 Speaker 3: and it's not answering your question, find the American system 327 00:21:28,773 --> 00:21:31,613 Speaker 3: very relevant. I think the second one, though, is that 328 00:21:31,693 --> 00:21:34,813 Speaker 3: it's just undoubted that the United States has become the 329 00:21:34,853 --> 00:21:40,173 Speaker 3: dominant power of our generations, and therefore our interest in 330 00:21:40,213 --> 00:21:43,253 Speaker 3: it is driven by its success and its power. I 331 00:21:43,253 --> 00:21:48,253 Speaker 3: think that's why the Roman Empire has continued to be 332 00:21:49,413 --> 00:21:53,453 Speaker 3: a topic of perennial interest, because it was the dominant 333 00:21:53,533 --> 00:21:58,773 Speaker 3: power over Europe as we know it today, and Europe 334 00:21:58,853 --> 00:22:02,253 Speaker 3: evolved out of what remained of that empire, and so 335 00:22:02,293 --> 00:22:05,533 Speaker 3: people look back to their roots and you sort of 336 00:22:06,173 --> 00:22:09,973 Speaker 3: the sort of a gravitational force the powerful and the successful. 337 00:22:11,293 --> 00:22:14,733 Speaker 3: Over time, though there's always an ebb and flow in 338 00:22:15,013 --> 00:22:19,533 Speaker 3: imperial and power and the strength of nations. And so 339 00:22:20,893 --> 00:22:23,973 Speaker 3: you know, probably two or three generations ago, people would 340 00:22:23,973 --> 00:22:26,973 Speaker 3: have thought that the British Empire was the most significant 341 00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:31,493 Speaker 3: objective inquiry, and I think that's only the case. You 342 00:22:31,533 --> 00:22:35,133 Speaker 3: saw that a lot of people very interested in the 343 00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:39,333 Speaker 3: British system of government because it as the British Empire 344 00:22:39,333 --> 00:22:43,133 Speaker 3: spread throughout the world, they established Westminster systems of government. 345 00:22:43,133 --> 00:22:46,893 Speaker 3: We call them Westminster systems after you know that small 346 00:22:47,013 --> 00:22:50,213 Speaker 3: area in London called Westminster where the houses of Parliament 347 00:22:50,213 --> 00:22:54,653 Speaker 3: are based. So I think our interest in these systems 348 00:22:54,733 --> 00:22:59,373 Speaker 3: is largely driven by their power, their success, and the 349 00:22:59,413 --> 00:23:02,013 Speaker 3: sense that well, they must be doing something right. So 350 00:23:02,093 --> 00:23:04,613 Speaker 3: let's try and understand how it works and see how 351 00:23:04,693 --> 00:23:07,333 Speaker 3: much we can emulate that success in our own nations. 352 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:12,213 Speaker 2: Then go back to whether democracy is under under threat 353 00:23:13,893 --> 00:23:17,613 Speaker 2: and make mention of immigration, in particular the number of 354 00:23:17,613 --> 00:23:24,453 Speaker 2: people who have been pouring into into countries Britain of course, America, 355 00:23:24,573 --> 00:23:31,053 Speaker 2: of course, Germany, Europe in general. Not so much in 356 00:23:31,213 --> 00:23:35,053 Speaker 2: our part of the world, but we are getting concerned 357 00:23:35,053 --> 00:23:36,973 Speaker 2: about it. I think on both sides of the Tasman 358 00:23:38,853 --> 00:23:45,333 Speaker 2: is immigration a threat to the lifestyle and the systems 359 00:23:45,333 --> 00:23:47,853 Speaker 2: that we have set up. And I'm talking, of course, 360 00:23:48,173 --> 00:23:53,533 Speaker 2: because of the because of the competitive nature of those 361 00:23:53,653 --> 00:23:56,373 Speaker 2: who are coming in for what they have left behind. 362 00:23:58,733 --> 00:24:03,293 Speaker 3: It's a really serious question I think that our country 363 00:24:03,693 --> 00:24:05,933 Speaker 3: are having to grapple with at this point in time. 364 00:24:06,573 --> 00:24:08,973 Speaker 3: And I know it's a highly charged question and a 365 00:24:09,053 --> 00:24:12,773 Speaker 3: highly emotive question as well. I mean, I myself, I've 366 00:24:12,813 --> 00:24:17,133 Speaker 3: got Greek heritage. You know, my grandparents came to Australia 367 00:24:17,173 --> 00:24:22,253 Speaker 3: from Greece. They were migrants themselves. It seems to me 368 00:24:22,373 --> 00:24:26,853 Speaker 3: that well, what's a very interesting thing is when these 369 00:24:26,853 --> 00:24:31,693 Speaker 3: debates arise, they sometimes occur in a certain heated environment, 370 00:24:32,493 --> 00:24:38,213 Speaker 3: and other points of interest or other issues are sometimes overlooked. 371 00:24:38,453 --> 00:24:40,413 Speaker 3: And what I want to draw attention to is this 372 00:24:40,533 --> 00:24:44,093 Speaker 3: is that I've done a lot of reading lately about 373 00:24:45,013 --> 00:24:51,693 Speaker 3: the relationships between ethnic, linguistic and religious diversity and how 374 00:24:51,813 --> 00:24:56,013 Speaker 3: economically successful a country is or how politically stable the 375 00:24:56,013 --> 00:24:59,933 Speaker 3: country is. Now, this is very quantitative data. What these 376 00:24:59,973 --> 00:25:03,013 Speaker 3: people do, with social scientists and sometimes economists, is that 377 00:25:03,053 --> 00:25:08,693 Speaker 3: they try to measure just how ethnically or religiously, or 378 00:25:08,773 --> 00:25:13,133 Speaker 3: linguistically or culturally diversit country is, or how polarized it is, 379 00:25:14,213 --> 00:25:16,933 Speaker 3: and then they try to work out how stable it is, 380 00:25:17,253 --> 00:25:20,853 Speaker 3: how economically prosperous it is, and those sorts of measures, 381 00:25:21,253 --> 00:25:24,053 Speaker 3: and they do this for every country in the world, 382 00:25:24,533 --> 00:25:27,453 Speaker 3: and they try to do it at particular periods of time, 383 00:25:27,893 --> 00:25:29,733 Speaker 3: and they try to look to see whether there are 384 00:25:29,733 --> 00:25:34,493 Speaker 3: correlations between one or the other. And so it seems 385 00:25:34,493 --> 00:25:36,773 Speaker 3: to me that the very premise of that sort of 386 00:25:36,773 --> 00:25:40,093 Speaker 3: an inquiry, and to some extent the findings of that research, 387 00:25:40,733 --> 00:25:43,053 Speaker 3: is to say that you have to be very careful 388 00:25:43,253 --> 00:25:49,373 Speaker 3: about too much diversity, particularly when it's done in a 389 00:25:49,413 --> 00:25:52,733 Speaker 3: way or develops in a way that stops people talking 390 00:25:52,773 --> 00:25:55,373 Speaker 3: to each other. And this comes back to the point 391 00:25:55,373 --> 00:26:00,293 Speaker 3: about freedom of speech, actually because what is startling? Actually 392 00:26:00,333 --> 00:26:01,733 Speaker 3: to me it was, and then I thought about it 393 00:26:01,733 --> 00:26:03,693 Speaker 3: while I thought, yes, actually, that makes a lot of sense. 394 00:26:03,853 --> 00:26:07,173 Speaker 3: Is that while we sometimes pay a lot of attention 395 00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:13,613 Speaker 3: to ethnic difference or religious difference, the biggest factor that 396 00:26:13,813 --> 00:26:19,613 Speaker 3: has and can have a bad effect on the stability 397 00:26:19,653 --> 00:26:24,293 Speaker 3: of the country and its paticefulness is linguistic diversity. In 398 00:26:24,333 --> 00:26:28,853 Speaker 3: other words, people who speak different languages and cannot understand 399 00:26:28,893 --> 00:26:33,053 Speaker 3: each other. And reflecting on that, it seems to me 400 00:26:33,533 --> 00:26:37,453 Speaker 3: that that's probably the most significant issue that you have 401 00:26:37,533 --> 00:26:40,813 Speaker 3: to deal with that. If you have a country with 402 00:26:40,933 --> 00:26:46,133 Speaker 3: people speaking different languages not able to communicate with each other, 403 00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:52,893 Speaker 3: they lack the ability to engage in democratic discussion. They 404 00:26:53,133 --> 00:26:57,733 Speaker 3: become enclave to themselves and they have their own speech community, 405 00:26:58,333 --> 00:27:01,173 Speaker 3: and they develop their own ideas independently of the other 406 00:27:01,173 --> 00:27:05,973 Speaker 3: people's living alongside them. So it would set me one 407 00:27:06,013 --> 00:27:09,053 Speaker 3: of the most important things to think about is ensuring 408 00:27:09,093 --> 00:27:14,373 Speaker 3: that people are encouraged to speak one language. One of 409 00:27:14,413 --> 00:27:18,053 Speaker 3: the interesting things is, and I had a really wonderful 410 00:27:18,053 --> 00:27:21,693 Speaker 3: PhD student who from Ethiopia has done some work of 411 00:27:21,773 --> 00:27:24,533 Speaker 3: these questions, and one of the things he discovered, and 412 00:27:24,573 --> 00:27:26,893 Speaker 3: some people didn't like him coming to this conclusion, was 413 00:27:27,013 --> 00:27:30,533 Speaker 3: that one of the reasons India has been a moderately 414 00:27:30,973 --> 00:27:35,253 Speaker 3: quite successful democracy dealing with you know, more than a 415 00:27:35,253 --> 00:27:38,973 Speaker 3: billion people now is that it had a language that 416 00:27:39,093 --> 00:27:42,693 Speaker 3: could be the language that could unite the nation. English 417 00:27:43,373 --> 00:27:46,693 Speaker 3: played a very significant role because sometimes when you have 418 00:27:46,733 --> 00:27:51,133 Speaker 3: countries where you've got competing languages, whose language gets the 419 00:27:51,253 --> 00:27:54,213 Speaker 3: language of the capri and sometimes it has to be 420 00:27:54,253 --> 00:27:57,933 Speaker 3: a language that's neutral as between the different ethnic groups 421 00:27:58,213 --> 00:28:01,213 Speaker 3: in order to get the agreement. In order to be 422 00:28:01,253 --> 00:28:04,173 Speaker 3: a language around which they can unite, even if in 423 00:28:04,213 --> 00:28:07,893 Speaker 3: the case of India, to that extent it was a 424 00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:11,453 Speaker 3: foreign language or a language of a colonial power. Now, 425 00:28:11,533 --> 00:28:13,853 Speaker 3: I'm not wanting to make a strong argent about India 426 00:28:14,013 --> 00:28:16,573 Speaker 3: or anything. I just really want to underscore the importance 427 00:28:16,573 --> 00:28:20,133 Speaker 3: of language and a common language and how that has 428 00:28:20,133 --> 00:28:23,573 Speaker 3: a very close relationship too, not just freedom of speech, 429 00:28:24,053 --> 00:28:28,893 Speaker 3: but actual participation in self government, where people are collectively 430 00:28:29,053 --> 00:28:34,373 Speaker 3: in a society freely able to and actually do engage 431 00:28:34,653 --> 00:28:38,413 Speaker 3: in communication and discussion. Have you been about their collective concerns? 432 00:28:38,493 --> 00:28:41,893 Speaker 3: Have you been to India? No? I haven't, so I 433 00:28:41,933 --> 00:28:44,893 Speaker 3: speak with some How do I put a reservation about 434 00:28:45,053 --> 00:28:48,093 Speaker 3: saying anything too specific about India name by. 435 00:28:47,933 --> 00:28:51,533 Speaker 2: The same taken, I've noticed, particularly from Australia, there has 436 00:28:51,573 --> 00:28:56,253 Speaker 2: been a growing interest in India over the last well 437 00:28:56,453 --> 00:28:59,173 Speaker 2: twelve months to two years at least, that's my observation. 438 00:28:59,853 --> 00:29:03,813 Speaker 3: Well, I think we're recognizing that like India is like 439 00:29:03,853 --> 00:29:07,173 Speaker 3: a world power, it's a very significant country. And I 440 00:29:07,173 --> 00:29:10,093 Speaker 3: think also perhaps we're becoming interested in a more given 441 00:29:10,133 --> 00:29:14,893 Speaker 3: the rise of China as well, because I mean, realistically, 442 00:29:15,373 --> 00:29:21,373 Speaker 3: India presents an account to China in the South Asian region. 443 00:29:22,173 --> 00:29:25,413 Speaker 3: And so the relationship between India and China could prove 444 00:29:25,493 --> 00:29:28,733 Speaker 3: to be highly significant in the next century, or so, 445 00:29:28,973 --> 00:29:32,293 Speaker 3: it seems to me, just given their large populations and 446 00:29:32,333 --> 00:29:33,173 Speaker 3: growing economies. 447 00:29:33,453 --> 00:29:38,373 Speaker 2: Indeed, let me concentrate momentarily on the New Zealand Australia 448 00:29:38,413 --> 00:29:45,933 Speaker 2: relationship and the future, because there is discussion again it 449 00:29:46,013 --> 00:29:50,933 Speaker 2: appears and it came out of nowhere from my perspective, 450 00:29:51,293 --> 00:29:55,253 Speaker 2: but there is a discussion about the possibilities of well, 451 00:29:55,373 --> 00:29:57,493 Speaker 2: the question is a better way to put it, of 452 00:29:58,213 --> 00:30:02,893 Speaker 2: whether we become closer, whether we fall further apart, or 453 00:30:03,013 --> 00:30:05,853 Speaker 2: whether we actually join up. Now, I say, just quickly. 454 00:30:05,893 --> 00:30:09,293 Speaker 2: When I came to New Zealand some decade ago, for 455 00:30:09,333 --> 00:30:13,053 Speaker 2: twelve months and here I am, the relationship was between 456 00:30:13,453 --> 00:30:20,213 Speaker 2: Malcolm Fraser and Robert Muldoon, a very unhealthy one, but everybody, 457 00:30:20,573 --> 00:30:25,293 Speaker 2: everybody survived, and so it has has continued. 458 00:30:25,373 --> 00:30:28,693 Speaker 3: What do you think. I think that asking a question 459 00:30:28,773 --> 00:30:32,693 Speaker 3: about relations between countries is one where one has to 460 00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:38,093 Speaker 3: bear in mind the significance, but limited significance, of the 461 00:30:38,133 --> 00:30:42,973 Speaker 3: particular political leaders at any particular time, and one needs 462 00:30:43,013 --> 00:30:46,253 Speaker 3: to look at what are the deeper channels of trajectory 463 00:30:46,893 --> 00:30:51,533 Speaker 3: that the two countries, I said, are demonstrating. So in 464 00:30:51,573 --> 00:30:53,173 Speaker 3: a sense, it seems to me that it's a little 465 00:30:53,293 --> 00:30:58,133 Speaker 3: like you're traveling down a valley and the hills on 466 00:30:58,173 --> 00:31:01,493 Speaker 3: either side of that valley determined that the water or 467 00:31:01,533 --> 00:31:03,853 Speaker 3: your even your own movement walking through the valley is 468 00:31:03,893 --> 00:31:06,693 Speaker 3: going to be drawn towards the center of the valley line. 469 00:31:07,293 --> 00:31:10,893 Speaker 3: But politically, under different leadership, you can sort of lift 470 00:31:10,973 --> 00:31:12,733 Speaker 3: one side of the valley or the other, and you 471 00:31:12,733 --> 00:31:15,693 Speaker 3: can oscillate a little bit from side to side, but 472 00:31:15,893 --> 00:31:19,973 Speaker 3: still the main direction of the relationship is down that valley. 473 00:31:20,573 --> 00:31:23,773 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's a helpful analogy, but I 474 00:31:23,773 --> 00:31:27,093 Speaker 3: think what's important to take that long term view and ask, well, 475 00:31:27,293 --> 00:31:29,613 Speaker 3: what are the drivers of the relationship, what are the 476 00:31:29,693 --> 00:31:33,973 Speaker 3: drivers of the nature of the two countries. I'd also 477 00:31:34,053 --> 00:31:36,613 Speaker 3: say that to think about this, you've got to ask, well, 478 00:31:36,813 --> 00:31:39,653 Speaker 3: if we're asking what the trajectory of the two countries 479 00:31:39,733 --> 00:31:43,933 Speaker 3: is and whether they're converging or diverging or will remain parallel, 480 00:31:44,213 --> 00:31:46,653 Speaker 3: you've got to ask where are they coming from first? 481 00:31:47,213 --> 00:31:50,893 Speaker 3: And then where are they going? And I think when 482 00:31:50,933 --> 00:31:55,853 Speaker 3: the Australian colonies federated in the eighteen ninety is actually 483 00:31:56,053 --> 00:32:00,533 Speaker 3: money under and one, New Zealand took the decision not 484 00:32:00,613 --> 00:32:04,493 Speaker 3: to join the federation, and that was a very very 485 00:32:04,533 --> 00:32:07,733 Speaker 3: significant choice because in the eighty nineties, when you looked 486 00:32:07,733 --> 00:32:10,653 Speaker 3: at it, it wasn't just obvious that the Australian colonies 487 00:32:10,853 --> 00:32:13,733 Speaker 3: would become a federation, and even if they did, it 488 00:32:13,733 --> 00:32:15,653 Speaker 3: wasn't obvious that New Zealand would not be a part 489 00:32:15,653 --> 00:32:18,293 Speaker 3: of it. In fact, New Zealand was part of those discussions, indeed, 490 00:32:18,853 --> 00:32:20,653 Speaker 3: And if you look at the way in which the 491 00:32:20,693 --> 00:32:23,253 Speaker 3: New Zealanders thought about that question and the way the 492 00:32:23,333 --> 00:32:25,973 Speaker 3: various Australian colonists thought about it, they thought about it 493 00:32:26,013 --> 00:32:29,533 Speaker 3: in the same way. They were enjoying the benefits of 494 00:32:30,053 --> 00:32:34,053 Speaker 3: local self government. They were participating in their own self government, 495 00:32:34,053 --> 00:32:36,133 Speaker 3: and they didn't want to give that up quickly sort 496 00:32:36,173 --> 00:32:41,693 Speaker 3: of large federation that might just absorb them completely. So 497 00:32:41,733 --> 00:32:44,733 Speaker 3: they were very insistent on preserving their rights. And there's 498 00:32:44,733 --> 00:32:46,453 Speaker 3: not the New Zealander said, but it's also what the 499 00:32:46,533 --> 00:32:49,373 Speaker 3: Queensland has said, or the South Australian said, and so on. 500 00:32:50,653 --> 00:32:53,853 Speaker 3: So the choice of New Zealand not to federate was 501 00:32:53,893 --> 00:32:56,773 Speaker 3: based on very similar reasoning that just applied to a 502 00:32:56,813 --> 00:33:00,613 Speaker 3: different situation. And what the New Zealanders said, which I 503 00:33:00,613 --> 00:33:04,373 Speaker 3: think is very interesting, is they said, look, we've decided 504 00:33:04,453 --> 00:33:08,693 Speaker 3: not to join the federation, but we will end into 505 00:33:08,733 --> 00:33:13,333 Speaker 3: treaties with Australia to secure the benefits of free trade 506 00:33:13,373 --> 00:33:17,293 Speaker 3: and free movement of people and mutual self defense, which 507 00:33:17,293 --> 00:33:20,093 Speaker 3: are two or three of the most important things that 508 00:33:20,093 --> 00:33:23,933 Speaker 3: a federation achieves, but not actually become part of your 509 00:33:23,933 --> 00:33:29,093 Speaker 3: federation and thus preserve an independent capacity to function as 510 00:33:29,133 --> 00:33:33,613 Speaker 3: an agent on the world stage. And they said that then, 511 00:33:34,013 --> 00:33:36,533 Speaker 3: and it seems to me that that's exactly what has 512 00:33:36,573 --> 00:33:41,173 Speaker 3: happened that over the course of the twentieth century New 513 00:33:41,253 --> 00:33:45,013 Speaker 3: Zealand and Australia have vented into a succession of treaties 514 00:33:45,653 --> 00:33:53,133 Speaker 3: which have united the peoples together in trade relationships, in 515 00:33:53,413 --> 00:33:59,533 Speaker 3: migratory relationships, and also in mutual defense relationship, which are 516 00:33:59,533 --> 00:34:03,333 Speaker 3: the fundamentals which define the relationship between the two countries 517 00:34:03,693 --> 00:34:08,213 Speaker 3: politically and constitutionally and legally. And that then becomes the 518 00:34:08,373 --> 00:34:11,853 Speaker 3: foundation of the cultural attachment between the two countries, where 519 00:34:11,893 --> 00:34:14,693 Speaker 3: we can have our sporting rivalries and jokes at each 520 00:34:14,693 --> 00:34:17,573 Speaker 3: other's expanse and our accents and all of the things 521 00:34:17,573 --> 00:34:20,453 Speaker 3: that we know about each other and sort of love 522 00:34:20,493 --> 00:34:22,693 Speaker 3: to hate about each other, but mostly love about each 523 00:34:22,733 --> 00:34:26,893 Speaker 3: other drives the sort of relationship, and there can be 524 00:34:26,933 --> 00:34:31,293 Speaker 3: oscillations back and forth where England might sorry New Zealand 525 00:34:31,333 --> 00:34:35,053 Speaker 3: might divert a little bit. New Zealand has diverged in 526 00:34:35,173 --> 00:34:37,493 Speaker 3: terms of the relationship to the United States in the 527 00:34:37,573 --> 00:34:42,013 Speaker 3: ninety eighties over the nuclear free policy. They seem to 528 00:34:42,053 --> 00:34:45,573 Speaker 3: be signs that New Zealand might be beginning to oscillate 529 00:34:45,693 --> 00:34:49,813 Speaker 3: back to a little more of a convergent position on that. 530 00:34:50,573 --> 00:34:53,253 Speaker 3: But I see those as oscillations within that valley that 531 00:34:53,333 --> 00:34:57,973 Speaker 3: I describe the just general trajectory, which is a close 532 00:34:58,013 --> 00:35:01,813 Speaker 3: relationship between two countries but running somewhat in parallel parts. 533 00:35:02,213 --> 00:35:04,773 Speaker 2: To my mind, do you think that tas Maybia would 534 00:35:04,813 --> 00:35:06,733 Speaker 2: have been better off if it had followed the New 535 00:35:06,813 --> 00:35:07,413 Speaker 2: Zealand lead? 536 00:35:09,413 --> 00:35:13,293 Speaker 3: Great question, because there's a real interesting analogy actually between 537 00:35:13,413 --> 00:35:18,453 Speaker 3: several Australian states and New Zealand in different respects. In fact, 538 00:35:18,533 --> 00:35:20,693 Speaker 3: in a certain sort of sense, I a little bit 539 00:35:20,773 --> 00:35:24,053 Speaker 3: chicily would compare Tasmania, not so much in New Zealand 540 00:35:24,053 --> 00:35:26,173 Speaker 3: as a whole, but the South Island of New Zealand, 541 00:35:26,613 --> 00:35:29,813 Speaker 3: and maybe the North Island is a bit like Victoria. Look, 542 00:35:30,613 --> 00:35:33,413 Speaker 3: the advantage you get of being independent like New Zealand 543 00:35:33,573 --> 00:35:36,693 Speaker 3: or Tasmania on this hypothesis is that you're an independent 544 00:35:36,773 --> 00:35:41,253 Speaker 3: nation on the world stage. That means that you remember 545 00:35:41,293 --> 00:35:44,813 Speaker 3: of the United Nations, you can make your decisions about 546 00:35:44,853 --> 00:35:48,093 Speaker 3: whether you want nuclear ships in your in your harbors 547 00:35:48,173 --> 00:35:56,173 Speaker 3: or not. And geopolitically, geographically, New Zealand like Tasmania are 548 00:35:56,813 --> 00:35:59,253 Speaker 3: in one sense on the bottom of the earth and 549 00:35:59,293 --> 00:36:01,613 Speaker 3: not in a bad sense, but well away from any 550 00:36:02,333 --> 00:36:06,453 Speaker 3: centers of geopolitical significance. And so that means that you're 551 00:36:06,493 --> 00:36:10,453 Speaker 3: in a sort of a different sit situation where the 552 00:36:10,493 --> 00:36:15,653 Speaker 3: threat of some sort of military confrontation is quite diffused 553 00:36:15,693 --> 00:36:19,573 Speaker 3: because you're just distant. But the downside of it is 554 00:36:19,573 --> 00:36:23,653 Speaker 3: is that you have to be self dependent, you have 555 00:36:23,693 --> 00:36:26,933 Speaker 3: to be self sustaining. Oh this is actually something that 556 00:36:27,053 --> 00:36:29,773 Speaker 3: Aristotle was very big one too, that you can't become 557 00:36:29,973 --> 00:36:35,733 Speaker 3: a political entity without being self sufficient economically and militarily 558 00:36:35,893 --> 00:36:39,893 Speaker 3: to defend yourself. And look, it's very hard to know 559 00:36:40,013 --> 00:36:42,573 Speaker 3: exactly how Tasmania would have turned out if it didn't 560 00:36:42,613 --> 00:36:45,733 Speaker 3: enjoy a federation, but it would not have enjoyed the 561 00:36:45,773 --> 00:36:49,933 Speaker 3: benefits of being part of the federation, because under a 562 00:36:49,933 --> 00:36:53,773 Speaker 3: federation a sense of obligation develops that we are one 563 00:36:53,893 --> 00:36:57,093 Speaker 3: people and one nation to some extent, and so we 564 00:36:57,173 --> 00:36:59,853 Speaker 3: have a duty to the people who live in Tasmania 565 00:36:59,933 --> 00:37:03,413 Speaker 3: to make sure that they have a standard of living 566 00:37:04,053 --> 00:37:07,453 Speaker 3: that is at least in some sense comparable to the 567 00:37:07,493 --> 00:37:11,413 Speaker 3: rest of the country. So what happens within a federation 568 00:37:11,573 --> 00:37:16,213 Speaker 3: is you have what is called, in technical language, horizontal equalization, 569 00:37:16,773 --> 00:37:20,693 Speaker 3: where there are efforts to distribute some tax revenues to 570 00:37:21,973 --> 00:37:25,693 Speaker 3: states that can't generate as much revenue because their economies 571 00:37:25,853 --> 00:37:29,453 Speaker 3: are not generating as much revenue, to sort of balance 572 00:37:29,533 --> 00:37:32,813 Speaker 3: things out a little. That sounds in Tasmania, let does 573 00:37:32,853 --> 00:37:37,693 Speaker 3: get that benefit. It sounds like equity to me an extent, 574 00:37:37,733 --> 00:37:39,893 Speaker 3: it does. Yeah, which does? 575 00:37:40,013 --> 00:37:42,213 Speaker 2: Which is a which is a word that doesn't find favor. 576 00:37:42,813 --> 00:37:46,213 Speaker 2: Let us let us then, well, actually I want to 577 00:37:46,293 --> 00:37:49,213 Speaker 2: I want to make mention of one thing you did 578 00:37:49,253 --> 00:37:54,893 Speaker 2: somewhere draw attention to the fact that that New Zealand 579 00:37:55,733 --> 00:38:02,253 Speaker 2: is more politically like Queensland and more and more administratively 580 00:38:02,333 --> 00:38:02,973 Speaker 2: like Victoria. 581 00:38:04,533 --> 00:38:09,093 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's actually an interesting point. So maybe I 582 00:38:09,133 --> 00:38:12,133 Speaker 3: put it this way, that New Zealand is constitutionally most 583 00:38:12,253 --> 00:38:14,573 Speaker 3: like Queensland. And I say that because they both have 584 00:38:14,693 --> 00:38:18,213 Speaker 3: one House of Parliament. All the other Australian states have 585 00:38:18,653 --> 00:38:22,613 Speaker 3: houses of Parliament, and that's very significant in Westminster systems 586 00:38:22,933 --> 00:38:25,973 Speaker 3: because when you have only one House of Parliament, by 587 00:38:26,093 --> 00:38:30,093 Speaker 3: definition in a Westminster system, your Prime Minister or your premier, 588 00:38:30,773 --> 00:38:34,893 Speaker 3: the government has control of that House of Parliament. And 589 00:38:34,933 --> 00:38:38,373 Speaker 3: that means a small group of people are in control 590 00:38:38,413 --> 00:38:42,733 Speaker 3: of two things, the exercise of executive power and the 591 00:38:42,813 --> 00:38:45,213 Speaker 3: exercise of the legislative power. They have the power to 592 00:38:45,253 --> 00:38:48,493 Speaker 3: make laws and they have the power to execute the laws, 593 00:38:48,613 --> 00:38:51,373 Speaker 3: all in one hands. And it was James Madden that 594 00:38:51,493 --> 00:38:55,253 Speaker 3: said you should separate those because if you consolidate them 595 00:38:55,253 --> 00:38:59,573 Speaker 3: into the hands of one people become too powerful and 596 00:38:59,853 --> 00:39:02,773 Speaker 3: there's not a check and balance on the executive power. 597 00:39:02,853 --> 00:39:05,173 Speaker 2: For that reason, I got it round the wrong way, 598 00:39:05,213 --> 00:39:05,653 Speaker 2: didn't they? 599 00:39:07,213 --> 00:39:10,973 Speaker 3: In a sense I see you define those terms. So 600 00:39:11,973 --> 00:39:16,013 Speaker 3: Queensland and New Zealand suffer from a concentration of power, 601 00:39:16,093 --> 00:39:21,853 Speaker 3: I think, which means that governments have so much control 602 00:39:22,013 --> 00:39:26,173 Speaker 3: over the agenda they very rarely get seriously challenged while 603 00:39:26,173 --> 00:39:29,133 Speaker 3: they are in power. When you have a second chamber, 604 00:39:29,253 --> 00:39:32,333 Speaker 3: whether you call it a Senate or a legislative council. 605 00:39:32,653 --> 00:39:36,093 Speaker 3: What that introduces is two things. First, one is that 606 00:39:36,213 --> 00:39:40,253 Speaker 3: usually the government isn't in control of the passage of legislation. 607 00:39:41,053 --> 00:39:44,813 Speaker 3: They have to negotiate with the other parties to get 608 00:39:44,853 --> 00:39:48,773 Speaker 3: things passed, and so laws are less likely to be 609 00:39:48,933 --> 00:39:53,013 Speaker 3: extreme in the sense of expressing or reflecting the extreme 610 00:39:53,133 --> 00:39:57,493 Speaker 3: view of the government. They have to negotiate. The second thing, 611 00:39:57,493 --> 00:39:59,573 Speaker 3: and I think in some ways the even more important thing, 612 00:39:59,693 --> 00:40:04,613 Speaker 3: is that houses of Parliament have an extraordinary capacity to 613 00:40:04,693 --> 00:40:08,813 Speaker 3: interrogate the executive moment during question time, and they can 614 00:40:08,933 --> 00:40:12,333 Speaker 3: use those powers to force ministers to answer question They 615 00:40:12,373 --> 00:40:15,693 Speaker 3: can force even bureaucrats to produce documents, and they can 616 00:40:15,813 --> 00:40:19,693 Speaker 3: ask the questions and den answers to them. And that 617 00:40:19,773 --> 00:40:25,053 Speaker 3: again places governments under scrutiny, the type of scrutiny that 618 00:40:25,133 --> 00:40:28,853 Speaker 3: they need. And when that happens, then governments have to 619 00:40:28,893 --> 00:40:32,093 Speaker 3: be again more responsive and more accountable for their decisions, 620 00:40:32,493 --> 00:40:34,333 Speaker 3: and it places a check upon them that is a 621 00:40:34,413 --> 00:40:38,413 Speaker 3: very salutary check in most suits. So that's why I 622 00:40:38,413 --> 00:40:43,693 Speaker 3: would say that Queensland and New Zealand be similar constitutionally, 623 00:40:43,773 --> 00:40:46,693 Speaker 3: and it's not really such a good thing. It would 624 00:40:46,733 --> 00:40:49,693 Speaker 3: be better if both countries, I think, had a second chamber. 625 00:40:52,013 --> 00:40:54,373 Speaker 3: It happened to Victoria is different if you mention that 626 00:40:54,573 --> 00:40:59,173 Speaker 3: as well. Yes, yeah, because Victoria. I would say that 627 00:40:59,733 --> 00:41:03,693 Speaker 3: New Zealand and Victoria are comparable, partly because they are 628 00:41:04,173 --> 00:41:10,453 Speaker 3: quite discrete states. I think that's similar, comparable climates to 629 00:41:10,493 --> 00:41:12,573 Speaker 3: some extent, I mean, that's a bit of an exaggeration, 630 00:41:12,653 --> 00:41:16,253 Speaker 3: but the most similar that beyond that, I think just 631 00:41:16,373 --> 00:41:21,413 Speaker 3: ideologically politically, they're very similar. Victoria is often now seen 632 00:41:21,693 --> 00:41:26,093 Speaker 3: today as Australia's most left leaning progressive state in that 633 00:41:26,213 --> 00:41:29,293 Speaker 3: sense of the word, and New Zealand seems to have become, 634 00:41:30,013 --> 00:41:34,933 Speaker 3: from an Australian point, more left leaning than some of 635 00:41:34,933 --> 00:41:37,453 Speaker 3: the other Australian states or even Australia as a whole 636 00:41:37,453 --> 00:41:40,533 Speaker 3: in some respects Now, it's a difficult judgment call, and 637 00:41:40,573 --> 00:41:43,573 Speaker 3: there's any ditions to that point, but there does seem 638 00:41:43,573 --> 00:41:47,013 Speaker 3: to be some comparability in Victoria and New Zealand on 639 00:41:47,053 --> 00:41:48,693 Speaker 3: that metric as well. Yeah. 640 00:41:48,813 --> 00:41:51,413 Speaker 2: Well that frightens me because what Victoria went through during 641 00:41:51,453 --> 00:41:58,373 Speaker 2: COVID in particular was arguably even worse than ours our experience. Yes, 642 00:41:59,293 --> 00:42:04,093 Speaker 2: and you have a well Victoria had a tyrant in charge. 643 00:42:05,973 --> 00:42:09,213 Speaker 3: Well. That goes back to this problem of execution executive control, 644 00:42:09,413 --> 00:42:13,093 Speaker 3: and the real scary thing is that, you know, even 645 00:42:13,093 --> 00:42:15,173 Speaker 3: though I like the idea of having a second chamber, 646 00:42:15,213 --> 00:42:19,493 Speaker 3: it's not a panacea. And the difficulty is the unfortunate 647 00:42:19,493 --> 00:42:22,493 Speaker 3: thing I think is that parliaments across the world have 648 00:42:22,773 --> 00:42:27,293 Speaker 3: delegated powers to the executive to respond to emergencies. And 649 00:42:27,453 --> 00:42:30,133 Speaker 3: on paper, that sounds very sensible. You know, it's an emergency. 650 00:42:30,213 --> 00:42:32,613 Speaker 3: Executive has to act and have to act promptly, and 651 00:42:32,693 --> 00:42:35,093 Speaker 3: if they have to get the parliament to give them 652 00:42:35,093 --> 00:42:37,893 Speaker 3: permission to do it, they won't act least they need to, 653 00:42:38,053 --> 00:42:41,333 Speaker 3: and the problem will just get worse and worse. Sounds 654 00:42:41,333 --> 00:42:44,293 Speaker 3: good on paper, but what it is is a license 655 00:42:44,373 --> 00:42:50,093 Speaker 3: for unchecked power. And the powers delegated to executive agents 656 00:42:50,333 --> 00:42:53,693 Speaker 3: like chief medical officers and sometimes ministers of government, but 657 00:42:53,853 --> 00:42:58,893 Speaker 3: often just bureaucrats to lock down people, to quarantine people 658 00:42:59,453 --> 00:43:04,613 Speaker 3: are enormous powers. Enormous powers, and power can be exercised 659 00:43:04,853 --> 00:43:09,333 Speaker 3: people's benefit, but it can also be exercise very excessively, 660 00:43:09,373 --> 00:43:11,293 Speaker 3: and I think we did see quite a lot of 661 00:43:11,373 --> 00:43:16,773 Speaker 3: excess of power being exercised during the COVID pandemic infinitely 662 00:43:17,013 --> 00:43:21,173 Speaker 3: only think I think I saw it. I think all 663 00:43:21,173 --> 00:43:24,693 Speaker 3: of us saw videos it was, and I think that 664 00:43:24,973 --> 00:43:28,053 Speaker 3: it was a very sad time actually, because I think 665 00:43:28,093 --> 00:43:31,613 Speaker 3: the reputation of our police officers was tarnished during that time, 666 00:43:31,693 --> 00:43:33,813 Speaker 3: and it continues to be by what we're seeing even 667 00:43:33,853 --> 00:43:37,133 Speaker 3: in places like the United Kingdom as well. And because 668 00:43:37,533 --> 00:43:41,653 Speaker 3: interestingly the power of the not just social media, but 669 00:43:41,813 --> 00:43:44,413 Speaker 3: all of us having phones with cameras on them, the 670 00:43:44,493 --> 00:43:47,453 Speaker 3: police aren't really able to do too much without being filmed. 671 00:43:47,453 --> 00:43:50,653 Speaker 3: And that's probably a good thing because it exposes to 672 00:43:50,733 --> 00:43:55,493 Speaker 3: the public what they do when they seek to enforce 673 00:43:55,653 --> 00:44:00,293 Speaker 3: law or their judgment what is necessary, and we see 674 00:44:00,533 --> 00:44:03,493 Speaker 3: excessive use what appears to be excessive use of forts. 675 00:44:03,533 --> 00:44:05,493 Speaker 3: We have to be very careful with those videos because 676 00:44:05,493 --> 00:44:08,533 Speaker 3: they can be edited and they can be framed to 677 00:44:08,573 --> 00:44:12,133 Speaker 3: make things look bad and not in the full context 678 00:44:12,213 --> 00:44:14,933 Speaker 3: of maybe the violent behavior of the person being apprehended 679 00:44:15,053 --> 00:44:17,253 Speaker 3: prior to the video. But on the other hand, there 680 00:44:17,253 --> 00:44:19,813 Speaker 3: are too many cases where the person is plainly not 681 00:44:19,933 --> 00:44:23,333 Speaker 3: acting in any way violently, but a man handled in 682 00:44:23,373 --> 00:44:28,493 Speaker 3: a very violent man on very questionable grounds and it's 683 00:44:28,853 --> 00:44:34,773 Speaker 3: it has I think, broad the public attitude to the 684 00:44:34,813 --> 00:44:38,893 Speaker 3: police force. You know, it's had an effect on our 685 00:44:38,973 --> 00:44:41,013 Speaker 3: view about the police, which I think is it all 686 00:44:41,053 --> 00:44:44,373 Speaker 3: healthy because we do need police officers and they're you know, 687 00:44:45,093 --> 00:44:46,933 Speaker 3: by and large they're trying to do the right thing 688 00:44:47,253 --> 00:44:50,493 Speaker 3: and they're good people, but we do get these excesses 689 00:44:51,133 --> 00:44:52,493 Speaker 3: and they're very concerning. 690 00:44:52,533 --> 00:44:55,973 Speaker 2: I think that that brings us onto the subject of law, 691 00:44:56,973 --> 00:45:00,413 Speaker 2: which has encompassed in the in the speech that you 692 00:45:00,733 --> 00:45:05,013 Speaker 2: that you delivered or will deliver as we speak at 693 00:45:05,613 --> 00:45:09,453 Speaker 2: makes them the compass of character. Of course, there is 694 00:45:09,493 --> 00:45:11,973 Speaker 2: an introduction to it, but then you concentrate on three 695 00:45:12,253 --> 00:45:18,213 Speaker 2: separate areas law, education, and religion. But it's all about character. 696 00:45:18,653 --> 00:45:21,013 Speaker 2: And I don't know whether this is going to be 697 00:45:21,093 --> 00:45:26,093 Speaker 2: made available to all on Sundry after the speech is delivered, 698 00:45:26,653 --> 00:45:29,013 Speaker 2: but I hope that it is. So let's spend a 699 00:45:29,013 --> 00:45:32,533 Speaker 2: bit of time on this speech. In the Compass of Character, 700 00:45:33,053 --> 00:45:35,133 Speaker 2: give us a brief definition of what character is. 701 00:45:36,293 --> 00:45:39,693 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, look, the definition of character, I adopt, is 702 00:45:40,413 --> 00:45:43,333 Speaker 3: very well established. I think in what I would like 703 00:45:43,413 --> 00:45:47,813 Speaker 3: to call the intellectual or tradition in which we are 704 00:45:47,853 --> 00:45:52,413 Speaker 3: part of as Western democracies and Western countries. It's the 705 00:45:52,493 --> 00:45:59,253 Speaker 3: idea that characters to do with your internal orientation, your 706 00:45:59,333 --> 00:46:07,093 Speaker 3: internal motivations, your internal ways of thinking and acting. In 707 00:46:07,133 --> 00:46:10,293 Speaker 3: one sense, it's got to do with your moral habits. 708 00:46:11,253 --> 00:46:13,213 Speaker 3: The old language that used to be used that I 709 00:46:13,213 --> 00:46:16,293 Speaker 3: think we need to recover, even though some people might 710 00:46:16,373 --> 00:46:20,133 Speaker 3: find the term in some ways off putting, is the 711 00:46:20,173 --> 00:46:28,653 Speaker 3: word virtue and its opposite vice. Virtues advices are our 712 00:46:28,893 --> 00:46:34,093 Speaker 3: character attributes, either good or bad. And if people don't 713 00:46:34,173 --> 00:46:36,933 Speaker 3: like the expression's virtue and vice, let me give you 714 00:46:36,973 --> 00:46:49,413 Speaker 3: some examples. Because key virtues are things like courage, prudence, wisdom, justice, patience, 715 00:46:50,813 --> 00:46:55,693 Speaker 3: good judgment. Now, those sorts of character qualities or virtues 716 00:46:56,133 --> 00:46:59,013 Speaker 3: are the good virtues or the good character qualities that 717 00:46:59,533 --> 00:47:03,653 Speaker 3: oriented person to habitually respond well to a situation and 718 00:47:03,773 --> 00:47:12,773 Speaker 3: act well. Whereas vices like greed, envy, malice, hatred, those 719 00:47:12,813 --> 00:47:17,933 Speaker 3: sorts of things are again bad habits of mind and 720 00:47:18,013 --> 00:47:23,453 Speaker 3: practice that orient us towards responding very badly to situations 721 00:47:23,493 --> 00:47:28,093 Speaker 3: and acting very badly. And it seems to me that 722 00:47:28,453 --> 00:47:31,533 Speaker 3: the argument of my paper at its core is that 723 00:47:32,973 --> 00:47:36,733 Speaker 3: our character in this sense determines the way we respond 724 00:47:36,733 --> 00:47:41,453 Speaker 3: and act both as individuals and collectively. And I think 725 00:47:41,493 --> 00:47:45,893 Speaker 3: that in our time we've lost touch with this, we've 726 00:47:45,893 --> 00:47:52,053 Speaker 3: forgotten this. And because we've forgotten that these character qualities 727 00:47:52,053 --> 00:47:55,373 Speaker 3: are what really drive the quality of our lives and 728 00:47:55,413 --> 00:47:58,693 Speaker 3: the goodness or the badness of our behaviors. Because we've 729 00:47:58,693 --> 00:48:03,613 Speaker 3: forgotten that, we have turned to other mechanisms or other 730 00:48:03,733 --> 00:48:08,533 Speaker 3: tools to try to deal with the lack of good character. 731 00:48:09,173 --> 00:48:11,613 Speaker 3: And so we've turned to two things in particular. We've 732 00:48:11,613 --> 00:48:16,333 Speaker 3: turned to law and we've turned education, and we've tried 733 00:48:16,413 --> 00:48:21,053 Speaker 3: to use law and use education to make up for 734 00:48:21,653 --> 00:48:26,653 Speaker 3: the absence of character where it doesn't exist. And the 735 00:48:26,813 --> 00:48:30,613 Speaker 3: problem is that the argument of my lecture is that 736 00:48:30,733 --> 00:48:34,653 Speaker 3: law and education are good and can do really good things, 737 00:48:35,533 --> 00:48:39,813 Speaker 3: but they have to stay within their wheelhouses, and they 738 00:48:39,893 --> 00:48:46,253 Speaker 3: can't actually of themselves produce good character. They can restrain 739 00:48:46,773 --> 00:48:51,573 Speaker 3: people from doing bad things. The law education can give 740 00:48:51,653 --> 00:48:55,773 Speaker 3: us good information, good knowledge, and good skills to do things, 741 00:48:56,933 --> 00:49:01,813 Speaker 3: but neither of those actually give us the character to 742 00:49:02,133 --> 00:49:06,693 Speaker 3: act well. And in my argument in the lecture is 743 00:49:07,133 --> 00:49:11,933 Speaker 3: that it is what we used to call and still 744 00:49:11,973 --> 00:49:16,293 Speaker 3: call in some sense religion that actually is most formative 745 00:49:16,413 --> 00:49:21,773 Speaker 3: of our characters. Because religion is that which forces us 746 00:49:21,853 --> 00:49:26,693 Speaker 3: to ask those deepuestions about our personal characters and challenge 747 00:49:26,813 --> 00:49:32,053 Speaker 3: us about the extent to which we are driven by malice, 748 00:49:32,733 --> 00:49:38,453 Speaker 3: driven by anger, driven by greed, driven by envy, or 749 00:49:38,453 --> 00:49:42,613 Speaker 3: whatever it might be, whatever vices actually do inhabit our 750 00:49:42,653 --> 00:49:46,813 Speaker 3: minds and our hearts and do shape our behaviors, and 751 00:49:46,933 --> 00:49:51,733 Speaker 3: the extent to which rather we embrace and seek to 752 00:49:51,813 --> 00:50:04,093 Speaker 3: inculcate within our own souls good virtuous character qualities like generosity, fairness, justice, patience, courage, fortitude, 753 00:50:04,093 --> 00:50:09,093 Speaker 3: and so forth. So, you know, the my lecture, that 754 00:50:09,173 --> 00:50:12,333 Speaker 3: the gift of my lecture is to say that let's 755 00:50:12,373 --> 00:50:16,013 Speaker 3: not think that law and education are the only tools 756 00:50:16,013 --> 00:50:18,453 Speaker 3: to produce a good society, and let's not over use 757 00:50:18,573 --> 00:50:23,733 Speaker 3: them because it actually becomes counterproductive. Let's realize and recover 758 00:50:24,293 --> 00:50:27,413 Speaker 3: the importance of what I'm calling religion for shaping our 759 00:50:27,533 --> 00:50:31,293 Speaker 3: characters in that good way. And that's the main point 760 00:50:31,293 --> 00:50:31,853 Speaker 3: of the lecture. 761 00:50:32,813 --> 00:50:37,373 Speaker 2: That's a very good point. A quick question, is common 762 00:50:37,413 --> 00:50:38,373 Speaker 2: sense a virtue? 763 00:50:39,293 --> 00:50:44,653 Speaker 3: Or can it be? I think so? I think so. Yeah. Look, 764 00:50:45,453 --> 00:50:49,653 Speaker 3: it's actually a really great virtue because it's common in 765 00:50:49,693 --> 00:50:51,733 Speaker 3: the sense that I mean, I have a lot of 766 00:50:51,813 --> 00:50:56,613 Speaker 3: respect for people with common sense. And I particularly need 767 00:50:56,653 --> 00:50:59,133 Speaker 3: to say that as an academic, because I think common 768 00:50:59,133 --> 00:51:03,853 Speaker 3: sense is not common amongst academics. Why is that, Well, 769 00:51:05,013 --> 00:51:08,533 Speaker 3: it seems to me that academic wisdom is valuable, but 770 00:51:08,613 --> 00:51:12,493 Speaker 3: it tends to be very intellectual, academic, for want of 771 00:51:12,533 --> 00:51:18,253 Speaker 3: a better word, abstract and detached from reality in a 772 00:51:18,333 --> 00:51:22,333 Speaker 3: very practical sense. Whereas the good friends that I have 773 00:51:22,693 --> 00:51:26,813 Speaker 3: who've got a lot of good sense in any conversation 774 00:51:27,173 --> 00:51:30,293 Speaker 3: always take it to a practicality and say, well, what 775 00:51:30,373 --> 00:51:33,293 Speaker 3: happens here and here? What do we do here and now? 776 00:51:34,053 --> 00:51:37,733 Speaker 3: And those sorts of people also demonstrate by their actions 777 00:51:37,773 --> 00:51:40,333 Speaker 3: in real life what it means to live a life 778 00:51:40,333 --> 00:51:43,773 Speaker 3: of good character or good common sense. So I think 779 00:51:43,773 --> 00:51:46,613 Speaker 3: that common sense is a virtue in that sense of 780 00:51:46,613 --> 00:51:48,773 Speaker 3: the word, and a very valuable one. 781 00:51:49,293 --> 00:51:54,333 Speaker 2: Let me so education, there's law and education, and then religion. 782 00:51:55,173 --> 00:51:58,133 Speaker 2: Let me give you a little break for a moment, 783 00:51:58,133 --> 00:52:01,333 Speaker 2: you get your breath, and I'll quote you. You refer 784 00:52:01,453 --> 00:52:07,653 Speaker 2: to vocational orientation. Occupational specialization enables the vision of labor 785 00:52:07,653 --> 00:52:09,973 Speaker 2: in which each person and contributes to the good of 786 00:52:09,973 --> 00:52:12,893 Speaker 2: society through the application of their particular knowledge and skills. 787 00:52:13,573 --> 00:52:16,173 Speaker 2: We're all better off as a result. But if that 788 00:52:16,373 --> 00:52:20,933 Speaker 2: is all that education is about, then it doesn't grapple 789 00:52:21,013 --> 00:52:23,933 Speaker 2: with the problem we identified earlier. It does not necessarily 790 00:52:23,973 --> 00:52:27,133 Speaker 2: produce good people. And that is the goal of this 791 00:52:27,613 --> 00:52:32,413 Speaker 2: as well, Is it not this paper to lead us 792 00:52:32,453 --> 00:52:35,013 Speaker 2: down a path will at least give us some advisories 793 00:52:35,813 --> 00:52:38,013 Speaker 2: of how we can produce good people to make a 794 00:52:38,053 --> 00:52:39,773 Speaker 2: good civilization a good country. 795 00:52:40,973 --> 00:52:41,653 Speaker 3: And you go on. 796 00:52:41,733 --> 00:52:44,493 Speaker 2: It merely produces people who are clever and skillful. Being 797 00:52:44,533 --> 00:52:47,853 Speaker 2: clever and skillful is good as long as it's accompanied 798 00:52:47,893 --> 00:52:52,573 Speaker 2: by good character. Without good character, being clever and skillful 799 00:52:52,653 --> 00:52:55,973 Speaker 2: can be done right dangerous. This problem runs very deep. 800 00:52:56,533 --> 00:52:59,893 Speaker 2: Take this commonplace belief. The better educated you are, the 801 00:52:59,933 --> 00:53:02,133 Speaker 2: more intelligent you are, the more likely you are to 802 00:53:02,213 --> 00:53:04,973 Speaker 2: form your views on the basis of well established evidence 803 00:53:05,013 --> 00:53:09,693 Speaker 2: and careful logical reasoning. And consider also the corollary. The 804 00:53:09,773 --> 00:53:14,853 Speaker 2: more ignorant, the less intelligent, the more poorly educated you are, 805 00:53:14,933 --> 00:53:18,973 Speaker 2: the more likely you are to be driven by emotion, prejudice, superstition, 806 00:53:19,013 --> 00:53:23,213 Speaker 2: and dogma. These are widely shared views. However, the cognitive 807 00:53:23,253 --> 00:53:28,333 Speaker 2: and behavioral science literature suggests that this is simply not 808 00:53:28,453 --> 00:53:32,333 Speaker 2: the case. Rather, as one, Or to put it, those 809 00:53:32,413 --> 00:53:36,773 Speaker 2: who are highly educated, intelligent, or rhetorically skilled tend to 810 00:53:36,813 --> 00:53:40,813 Speaker 2: be significantly less likely than most to revise their beliefs 811 00:53:41,213 --> 00:53:44,733 Speaker 2: or adjust their positions when confronted with evidence or arguments 812 00:53:45,013 --> 00:53:49,853 Speaker 2: that contradict their priors. And that was a mouthful, what 813 00:53:49,933 --> 00:53:50,773 Speaker 2: else would you say? 814 00:53:51,373 --> 00:53:55,453 Speaker 3: Well, when I looked into that matter, I had some 815 00:53:55,573 --> 00:54:00,813 Speaker 3: intuitions to that effect, but not well formed ones. But 816 00:54:00,933 --> 00:54:04,493 Speaker 3: the intuitions were based on my observations about being an 817 00:54:04,493 --> 00:54:09,573 Speaker 3: academic myself and working with fellow academics, and also having 818 00:54:10,133 --> 00:54:13,093 Speaker 3: close friendships and working with people who are not academics 819 00:54:14,013 --> 00:54:19,373 Speaker 3: in what we often call everyday life. And it never 820 00:54:19,413 --> 00:54:22,813 Speaker 3: occurred to me that academics were in any sense morally 821 00:54:22,853 --> 00:54:26,293 Speaker 3: superior to my friends who were not academics at all. 822 00:54:27,493 --> 00:54:30,413 Speaker 3: But what I'll also notice was is that and even 823 00:54:30,493 --> 00:54:33,053 Speaker 3: just I suppose, if I can be just really honest 824 00:54:33,053 --> 00:54:36,213 Speaker 3: about myself, looking into my own heart, I knew that 825 00:54:36,973 --> 00:54:40,893 Speaker 3: I had an ability to make clever arguments, to think 826 00:54:40,973 --> 00:54:45,693 Speaker 3: quickly on my feet, and to deliver rhetorically effective rapusts 827 00:54:45,733 --> 00:54:49,653 Speaker 3: to anything anyone might say to avoid the plain truth 828 00:54:49,693 --> 00:54:54,333 Speaker 3: that they might be speaking, or to rationalize my own positions. 829 00:54:54,693 --> 00:54:57,613 Speaker 3: And so when I looked at this literature, which is 830 00:54:57,893 --> 00:55:03,013 Speaker 3: in a rigorous way examined whether academics, if I can 831 00:55:03,013 --> 00:55:06,773 Speaker 3: put it that way, are any more likely to revise 832 00:55:06,813 --> 00:55:10,813 Speaker 3: their views when confronted with the contradictory evidence, it was 833 00:55:11,373 --> 00:55:15,933 Speaker 3: in one sense startling, but also did sort of reflect 834 00:55:15,933 --> 00:55:19,693 Speaker 3: my intuitions that the more intelligent you are, and the 835 00:55:20,013 --> 00:55:24,813 Speaker 3: better or the better educated you are, the more ideologically 836 00:55:24,853 --> 00:55:28,653 Speaker 3: extreme you can be, and the quicker and more capable 837 00:55:28,693 --> 00:55:31,093 Speaker 3: you can be. It's sort of shoring up your position 838 00:55:31,893 --> 00:55:35,693 Speaker 3: without really coming to grips with some point of evidence 839 00:55:35,813 --> 00:55:40,413 Speaker 3: or some line of argument that undermines your position, and 840 00:55:40,453 --> 00:55:42,893 Speaker 3: so that all just then boils down to real character. 841 00:55:43,733 --> 00:55:49,333 Speaker 3: It suggests that virtue and character are really relevant to 842 00:55:49,373 --> 00:55:54,533 Speaker 3: the academic enterprise as well, because the search for truth 843 00:55:55,173 --> 00:55:59,773 Speaker 3: is not just something that is an intellectual enterprise. It 844 00:55:59,853 --> 00:56:02,813 Speaker 3: requires good character because you have to be prepared to 845 00:56:03,533 --> 00:56:05,973 Speaker 3: admit that something you assume to be the case was 846 00:56:06,013 --> 00:56:10,653 Speaker 3: actually not correct or false, and you need to be 847 00:56:10,693 --> 00:56:14,053 Speaker 3: prepared to change your opinion about something when the evidence 848 00:56:14,093 --> 00:56:18,093 Speaker 3: suggests that your opinion was wrong. But it's not very 849 00:56:18,133 --> 00:56:20,413 Speaker 3: clear that without well, but I suppose the point is 850 00:56:20,413 --> 00:56:23,453 Speaker 3: without good character, we as academics can be just as 851 00:56:23,493 --> 00:56:26,893 Speaker 3: inclined to just hunker down in our opinions and find 852 00:56:26,933 --> 00:56:30,733 Speaker 3: what to rationalize our positions in spite of evidence to 853 00:56:30,773 --> 00:56:33,413 Speaker 3: the contrary. So it all comes down to good character 854 00:56:33,533 --> 00:56:36,613 Speaker 3: as well as good intelligence, and both are needed to 855 00:56:36,693 --> 00:56:40,013 Speaker 3: be the sort of academics we need to be to 856 00:56:40,373 --> 00:56:41,933 Speaker 3: contribute to our society. 857 00:56:42,373 --> 00:56:46,453 Speaker 2: So society in general is reliant on truth on every 858 00:56:46,493 --> 00:56:50,813 Speaker 2: front in life. Now, as a result of that, I've 859 00:56:50,813 --> 00:56:52,773 Speaker 2: got a drag in the media, and I'm going to 860 00:56:52,853 --> 00:56:58,693 Speaker 2: use Victoria as an example again because truth was hidden 861 00:56:58,733 --> 00:57:01,733 Speaker 2: from most people in Victoria by the media. The media 862 00:57:01,773 --> 00:57:06,333 Speaker 2: did a very, very, very poor, i'd say corrupt job 863 00:57:06,453 --> 00:57:09,653 Speaker 2: of covering this era, and that includes here and other 864 00:57:09,693 --> 00:57:10,453 Speaker 2: places as well. 865 00:57:10,653 --> 00:57:15,293 Speaker 3: Agreed, I think there was evidence of that, Yes, so 866 00:57:15,413 --> 00:57:18,453 Speaker 3: do I think perhaps one way of putting it or 867 00:57:18,453 --> 00:57:21,333 Speaker 3: thinking about it, at least this is how it certainly appeared, 868 00:57:21,493 --> 00:57:24,253 Speaker 3: was that. And I'm trying to understand this in the 869 00:57:24,253 --> 00:57:28,373 Speaker 3: best light possible, is that the view may have been 870 00:57:28,413 --> 00:57:32,973 Speaker 3: that we live in a crisis. This is a very 871 00:57:33,053 --> 00:57:37,773 Speaker 3: dangerous disease. We need to band together, We need to 872 00:57:37,813 --> 00:57:41,773 Speaker 3: adopt one policy, We need to pull together in one 873 00:57:41,853 --> 00:57:45,013 Speaker 3: way to solve the problem. Our governments are there to 874 00:57:45,213 --> 00:57:48,293 Speaker 3: lead us through this. Our governments are advising us to 875 00:57:48,333 --> 00:57:52,453 Speaker 3: do this. We need to support them in this. We 876 00:57:52,533 --> 00:57:56,173 Speaker 3: need to make sure that our message is the same 877 00:57:56,213 --> 00:58:00,133 Speaker 3: as the governments. And I think that dominated the media 878 00:58:00,173 --> 00:58:02,733 Speaker 3: and the politics of much of the world for that period, 879 00:58:03,213 --> 00:58:07,133 Speaker 3: and it was outside the mainstream media that criticism occurred. 880 00:58:08,333 --> 00:58:12,733 Speaker 3: And yeah, it was really tragic in a sense because 881 00:58:12,733 --> 00:58:17,053 Speaker 3: it meant that the sort of contestation that ought to 882 00:58:17,133 --> 00:58:21,653 Speaker 3: happen in public debate about what to do just didn't happen, 883 00:58:21,733 --> 00:58:27,293 Speaker 3: or didn't happen effectively, and it generated a condition of 884 00:58:27,293 --> 00:58:32,053 Speaker 3: fear through the society, and you saw people thinking and 885 00:58:32,133 --> 00:58:35,693 Speaker 3: speaking and acting in a way that wasn't supported by 886 00:58:35,693 --> 00:58:40,693 Speaker 3: the facts. I was startled, actually, you know, two three 887 00:58:40,773 --> 00:58:43,573 Speaker 3: years later, now people are being a little more truthful, 888 00:58:43,613 --> 00:58:46,613 Speaker 3: even of those who exercised power at the time. You know, 889 00:58:46,853 --> 00:58:51,293 Speaker 3: even journalists sometimes and politicians now, and even bureaucrats beginning 890 00:58:51,293 --> 00:58:55,173 Speaker 3: to admit that they were wrong about things. But I 891 00:58:55,213 --> 00:58:58,893 Speaker 3: found that startling because I was trying to form a 892 00:58:58,933 --> 00:59:01,253 Speaker 3: view based on all the information that I could glean 893 00:59:01,373 --> 00:59:05,773 Speaker 3: from experts across the spectrum of views, and I thought 894 00:59:05,773 --> 00:59:08,333 Speaker 3: it was pretty obvious and well known or well established, 895 00:59:08,653 --> 00:59:12,453 Speaker 3: very very early on. But COVID was a disease that 896 00:59:12,653 --> 00:59:16,973 Speaker 3: sadly had the worst impact for the most elderly, and 897 00:59:17,733 --> 00:59:20,733 Speaker 3: fortunately for the young and the very young, had very 898 00:59:20,773 --> 00:59:23,653 Speaker 3: little of any impact at all on my health basis, 899 00:59:24,133 --> 00:59:26,733 Speaker 3: and that that should therefore shape how we view it 900 00:59:26,773 --> 00:59:29,533 Speaker 3: as a disease. But it seemed like that was just 901 00:59:29,693 --> 00:59:34,453 Speaker 3: not well known. And when I have noticed a few 902 00:59:34,493 --> 00:59:38,693 Speaker 3: people either in the media or in politics, or someone 903 00:59:39,093 --> 00:59:41,733 Speaker 3: saying two three years later, I didn't know that at 904 00:59:41,733 --> 00:59:45,053 Speaker 3: the time, but now we realize, I thought to myself, well, no, 905 00:59:45,333 --> 00:59:48,173 Speaker 3: those of us who were reading this material became aware 906 00:59:48,213 --> 00:59:52,413 Speaker 3: of that almost straight away. And that's an example I 907 00:59:52,453 --> 00:59:55,493 Speaker 3: think of a very strange thing that happened there where 908 00:59:56,373 --> 01:00:01,773 Speaker 3: for some reason that open contestation and weighing the actual 909 01:00:01,813 --> 01:00:05,693 Speaker 3: evidence didn't occur. I mean, I also remember, even just 910 01:00:05,773 --> 01:00:10,373 Speaker 3: simply the fatality rate from the disease. I remember very 911 01:00:10,413 --> 01:00:16,733 Speaker 3: early on a debate between epidemiologist experts, one from Stanford 912 01:00:16,773 --> 01:00:19,173 Speaker 3: and one I think from Dale University that was held 913 01:00:19,213 --> 01:00:23,213 Speaker 3: in I think in Canada, very very early on, and 914 01:00:23,253 --> 01:00:27,853 Speaker 3: the Stanford professor was saying, my recollection serves me correctly 915 01:00:27,933 --> 01:00:32,693 Speaker 3: that the actual fatality rate from the disease was going 916 01:00:32,733 --> 01:00:36,253 Speaker 3: to be less than half a percent in his estimation, 917 01:00:36,373 --> 01:00:38,453 Speaker 3: that was his best estimate based on the evidence he 918 01:00:38,493 --> 01:00:41,493 Speaker 3: had in front of him, whereas from memory, the Yale 919 01:00:41,573 --> 01:00:44,453 Speaker 3: professor was saying it's in excess of three percent or 920 01:00:44,613 --> 01:00:47,613 Speaker 3: upward to five percent or something like that. Now, that 921 01:00:47,693 --> 01:00:49,493 Speaker 3: might not sound like a lot, but a half a 922 01:00:49,493 --> 01:00:52,133 Speaker 3: percent of three or five percent is of orders of 923 01:00:52,173 --> 01:00:55,733 Speaker 3: magnitude different. Now, the Stanford professor I think has been 924 01:00:55,773 --> 01:01:00,773 Speaker 3: proven correct, is undoubted. But the number of people that 925 01:01:00,853 --> 01:01:04,133 Speaker 3: I asked, just colloquially, you know, how what do you 926 01:01:04,133 --> 01:01:07,253 Speaker 3: think the fatality rate is? People would say, oh, ten percent, 927 01:01:07,333 --> 01:01:10,093 Speaker 3: fifteen percent, twenty percent of people will die if they 928 01:01:10,133 --> 01:01:13,613 Speaker 3: catch the disease. And it's just simply wrong. And it 929 01:01:13,653 --> 01:01:18,533 Speaker 3: created a climate of fear which stopped people from being 930 01:01:18,573 --> 01:01:23,053 Speaker 3: able to exercise their critical faculties and to think rationally 931 01:01:23,093 --> 01:01:26,133 Speaker 3: about the disease and to think about how to protect 932 01:01:26,133 --> 01:01:29,293 Speaker 3: the people who really were vol who are the very elderly, 933 01:01:29,453 --> 01:01:32,613 Speaker 3: or those who already had certain comorbidities that made them 934 01:01:32,693 --> 01:01:33,453 Speaker 3: very susceptible. 935 01:01:34,413 --> 01:01:39,893 Speaker 2: You make mention of being surprised and I suppose frustrated 936 01:01:40,013 --> 01:01:45,453 Speaker 2: at those who are now coming out from various backgrounds 937 01:01:45,933 --> 01:01:49,613 Speaker 2: are now revealing that, well, they got it wrong, we 938 01:01:49,653 --> 01:01:53,213 Speaker 2: didn't know that at the time, etc. Most of that, 939 01:01:53,213 --> 01:01:55,093 Speaker 2: I would suggest, was caused by the fact that they 940 01:01:55,093 --> 01:01:59,933 Speaker 2: weren't interested in finding out. It was authoritarianly led in 941 01:02:00,213 --> 01:02:03,893 Speaker 2: many parts of the world and falling into line was 942 01:02:04,293 --> 01:02:08,093 Speaker 2: an appropriate, an appropriate thing. And the only reason they're 943 01:02:08,133 --> 01:02:13,893 Speaker 2: now now revealing well pleading sorrow is because they have 944 01:02:13,973 --> 01:02:21,933 Speaker 2: no choice, because the statistics and the associated understandings are 945 01:02:21,973 --> 01:02:23,933 Speaker 2: now revealing what the truth always was. 946 01:02:25,173 --> 01:02:27,613 Speaker 3: And I think the really critical question now is what's 947 01:02:27,613 --> 01:02:28,693 Speaker 3: going to happen next time? 948 01:02:29,373 --> 01:02:33,653 Speaker 2: Because can I suggest to you that it will partly 949 01:02:33,693 --> 01:02:37,133 Speaker 2: depend on when next time is how far away, but 950 01:02:37,613 --> 01:02:40,653 Speaker 2: whenever it is, we'll get a repeat of the same 951 01:02:41,053 --> 01:02:45,333 Speaker 2: of the same scenario, with a big farmer doing the 952 01:02:45,453 --> 01:02:50,253 Speaker 2: job it did last time, and everybody else falling into line, 953 01:02:50,613 --> 01:02:54,773 Speaker 2: partly because of forgetfulness and partly because well, we don't 954 01:02:54,813 --> 01:02:56,053 Speaker 2: know any better at this point. 955 01:02:57,813 --> 01:02:59,933 Speaker 3: Look, I think that could be true to some extent. 956 01:03:00,013 --> 01:03:03,253 Speaker 3: In fact, it really is something right for really decent 957 01:03:03,453 --> 01:03:08,293 Speaker 3: social science research to actually measure and gain an appreciation 958 01:03:08,533 --> 01:03:11,613 Speaker 3: of what people think out there, because look, I don't 959 01:03:11,653 --> 01:03:15,413 Speaker 3: mean any disrespect, but I still see people walking around 960 01:03:15,413 --> 01:03:20,733 Speaker 3: with masks, and with masks that are not effective. Like 961 01:03:21,253 --> 01:03:22,933 Speaker 3: the evidence seemed to be that there are different types 962 01:03:22,933 --> 01:03:25,133 Speaker 3: of masks, as I'm sure you wouldn't know too late, 963 01:03:25,853 --> 01:03:29,133 Speaker 3: and some are relatively more effective than others, and their 964 01:03:29,173 --> 01:03:32,333 Speaker 3: overall effectiveness is all determined by how properly use them 965 01:03:32,333 --> 01:03:34,853 Speaker 3: and a whole lot of other facts. But to see 966 01:03:34,893 --> 01:03:37,453 Speaker 3: people still walking around in masks of a type that 967 01:03:37,493 --> 01:03:42,133 Speaker 3: are just not effective at all in open air, walking 968 01:03:42,173 --> 01:03:46,413 Speaker 3: down the street, I think to myself, Wow, that's actually 969 01:03:46,413 --> 01:03:49,813 Speaker 3: really very sad that that person probably although they may 970 01:03:49,853 --> 01:03:52,173 Speaker 3: have some certain circumstances that I don't love about, but 971 01:03:52,493 --> 01:03:55,613 Speaker 3: you do see it, and you think that fear has 972 01:03:55,653 --> 01:03:59,973 Speaker 3: become very widespread. But the countervailing consideration, which I think 973 01:04:00,013 --> 01:04:02,653 Speaker 3: needs to be tested and measured, is the extent to 974 01:04:02,653 --> 01:04:06,733 Speaker 3: which our population has become more skeptical as a consequence. 975 01:04:08,013 --> 01:04:10,093 Speaker 3: I do do you think that the next time it happens, 976 01:04:10,093 --> 01:04:13,933 Speaker 3: and if it happens within as it were, practical living memory, 977 01:04:14,413 --> 01:04:16,293 Speaker 3: and so that's a very good point you make. You know, 978 01:04:16,293 --> 01:04:19,973 Speaker 3: if it happens long in enough time we will have forgotten. 979 01:04:21,213 --> 01:04:23,453 Speaker 3: But it does seem to me that enough people have 980 01:04:23,573 --> 01:04:26,133 Speaker 3: sort of realized that there was a whole lot of exaggeration, 981 01:04:26,453 --> 01:04:28,333 Speaker 3: a whole lot of fear mongering, and a whole lot 982 01:04:28,373 --> 01:04:32,373 Speaker 3: of disinformation from governments this time to make them more 983 01:04:32,373 --> 01:04:35,133 Speaker 3: skeptical the next time around. I do think the dynamic 984 01:04:35,173 --> 01:04:39,493 Speaker 3: will be a little different, but I hesitate to predict 985 01:04:39,613 --> 01:04:42,213 Speaker 3: exactly how it work out. But it seems to me 986 01:04:42,253 --> 01:04:45,293 Speaker 3: it will turn on just what proportion of our population 987 01:04:46,293 --> 01:04:49,613 Speaker 3: through that process have changed their minds about how they 988 01:04:49,693 --> 01:04:54,093 Speaker 3: think about these matters, And I think that will be 989 01:04:54,133 --> 01:04:56,533 Speaker 3: a critical question going forward. I don't know the answer 990 01:04:56,613 --> 01:04:58,413 Speaker 3: to that, because I don't know what proportion of our 991 01:04:58,453 --> 01:05:02,293 Speaker 3: populations how they're thinking about, how many people are thinking 992 01:05:02,773 --> 01:05:05,453 Speaker 3: everything was fine, we did the right thing. I still 993 01:05:05,453 --> 01:05:09,173 Speaker 3: believe everything they said, and what proportion had have come 994 01:05:09,213 --> 01:05:12,933 Speaker 3: to doubt that, and what proportion always doubted it, or 995 01:05:13,053 --> 01:05:15,733 Speaker 3: you know, there's a whole lot of scales of response. 996 01:05:16,093 --> 01:05:18,333 Speaker 2: I don't know whether I don't know whether you whether 997 01:05:18,373 --> 01:05:21,053 Speaker 2: you heard the news yesterday or it might have been 998 01:05:21,093 --> 01:05:25,173 Speaker 2: the day before. Kansas, the state of Kansas is the 999 01:05:25,173 --> 01:05:30,813 Speaker 2: first of five so far states to file papers against Pfizer, 1000 01:05:31,213 --> 01:05:34,893 Speaker 2: and they're going in for the big hit, and the 1001 01:05:34,933 --> 01:05:38,773 Speaker 2: other four will follow on automatically. And I think that 1002 01:05:38,773 --> 01:05:41,813 Speaker 2: that's going to be extremely interesting because I think that 1003 01:05:42,093 --> 01:05:45,973 Speaker 2: I think they're riding a winner. In conclusion, I'll give 1004 01:05:46,013 --> 01:05:49,493 Speaker 2: you the last word and you finish up saying religion 1005 01:05:49,653 --> 01:05:53,493 Speaker 2: understood as a conversion of the soul. Would you care 1006 01:05:53,573 --> 01:05:55,013 Speaker 2: to wind up on that? 1007 01:05:56,253 --> 01:06:00,653 Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, sure, Laton. Well, the interesting thing is that 1008 01:06:01,493 --> 01:06:06,373 Speaker 3: the legal definition of religion tends to reduce it to 1009 01:06:06,493 --> 01:06:10,093 Speaker 3: a type of law and a type of ut It 1010 01:06:10,173 --> 01:06:15,253 Speaker 3: tends to define religion as belief in a series of propositions, 1011 01:06:15,293 --> 01:06:19,933 Speaker 3: sort of like education and adherence to a set of rules, 1012 01:06:20,693 --> 01:06:25,133 Speaker 3: a sort of law. And while that definition works for 1013 01:06:25,213 --> 01:06:29,053 Speaker 3: the law, it doesn't really work for our society or 1014 01:06:29,053 --> 01:06:33,013 Speaker 3: our culture, because it's not what is distinctive about religion 1015 01:06:33,133 --> 01:06:37,373 Speaker 3: as I'm defining it and using the term, because religion 1016 01:06:37,613 --> 01:06:42,893 Speaker 3: goes to our deepest motivations, It goes to our deepest habits, 1017 01:06:43,853 --> 01:06:46,493 Speaker 3: It goes to the way we think in our minds, 1018 01:06:47,133 --> 01:06:51,093 Speaker 3: It goes to our attitudes and our dispositions. It addresses 1019 01:06:51,173 --> 01:06:56,773 Speaker 3: the extent to which our habitual response to situations is 1020 01:06:56,813 --> 01:07:03,373 Speaker 3: typically anger or malice, or hatred or envy, or whether 1021 01:07:03,573 --> 01:07:09,653 Speaker 3: our habitual response to a situation is one of patients endurance, kindness, 1022 01:07:10,493 --> 01:07:15,013 Speaker 3: and so forth. The question is are we a generous 1023 01:07:15,053 --> 01:07:19,773 Speaker 3: people in our souls or are we miserly in our souls? 1024 01:07:20,453 --> 01:07:22,773 Speaker 3: And how we respond to people and how we act 1025 01:07:22,813 --> 01:07:27,173 Speaker 3: in the world is shaped by those dispositions. Religion, I 1026 01:07:27,213 --> 01:07:31,293 Speaker 3: think well understood, is all about that, and it requires 1027 01:07:31,373 --> 01:07:36,773 Speaker 3: self examination. It requires us to ask ourselves, what are 1028 01:07:36,813 --> 01:07:41,613 Speaker 3: my motivations? And it requires us to actually acknowledge or 1029 01:07:41,653 --> 01:07:45,573 Speaker 3: even confess that we've got bad motivations to ourselves and 1030 01:07:45,613 --> 01:07:50,493 Speaker 3: even to our God. And to confess that and to 1031 01:07:50,573 --> 01:07:54,293 Speaker 3: use an old fashioned word, repent, to say I don't 1032 01:07:54,333 --> 01:07:56,893 Speaker 3: want to be like that. Help me not to be 1033 01:07:57,133 --> 01:08:00,413 Speaker 3: like that. That, to me is what religion is about. 1034 01:08:00,853 --> 01:08:03,973 Speaker 3: It's about that reformation, as it were, of our souls. 1035 01:08:04,653 --> 01:08:07,093 Speaker 3: And it seems to me that in losing sight of 1036 01:08:07,133 --> 01:08:10,653 Speaker 3: that in our public clive, we place so much more 1037 01:08:10,693 --> 01:08:14,253 Speaker 3: weight on law and education to make up for it, 1038 01:08:14,773 --> 01:08:17,573 Speaker 3: and we don't ask ourselves and we don't talk about 1039 01:08:18,293 --> 01:08:22,853 Speaker 3: those deeper motivations in our hearts that really do determine 1040 01:08:22,893 --> 01:08:25,373 Speaker 3: the way we behave and the way we treat each other. 1041 01:08:25,973 --> 01:08:29,133 Speaker 3: And I do hope my lecture and even this conversation 1042 01:08:29,213 --> 01:08:33,573 Speaker 3: with you today Laton contributes to us all reflecting on 1043 01:08:33,653 --> 01:08:37,053 Speaker 3: that question. For each of us individually, it's already done it. 1044 01:08:37,493 --> 01:08:40,413 Speaker 2: Nicholas, thank you, and I hope that we get to 1045 01:08:41,573 --> 01:08:45,813 Speaker 2: do this again sometime. In fact, I'll manipulate it. It's 1046 01:08:45,853 --> 01:08:46,733 Speaker 2: been a real pleasure. 1047 01:08:46,853 --> 01:08:49,013 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's been wonderful talking with you, and I'd 1048 01:08:49,013 --> 01:08:51,333 Speaker 3: be delighted to talk with you again soon. 1049 01:09:09,333 --> 01:09:11,533 Speaker 2: So here we are with podcast number two hundred and 1050 01:09:11,533 --> 01:09:15,053 Speaker 2: fifty five and the mail room with Missus producer Layton. 1051 01:09:15,253 --> 01:09:16,453 Speaker 3: How on earth are you well? 1052 01:09:16,493 --> 01:09:18,413 Speaker 2: You'd ask that, so I prepared an answer, but I 1053 01:09:18,453 --> 01:09:19,493 Speaker 2: can't remember. 1054 01:09:19,333 --> 01:09:20,653 Speaker 4: Half full or half empty. 1055 01:09:23,853 --> 01:09:26,613 Speaker 2: I'm not sure which side of the equation the moment, 1056 01:09:26,693 --> 01:09:27,213 Speaker 2: It's got to. 1057 01:09:27,173 --> 01:09:31,173 Speaker 4: Be half full, baby, go Laden Chris says this morning, 1058 01:09:31,213 --> 01:09:33,733 Speaker 4: I felt sick when I read about the open letter 1059 01:09:33,773 --> 01:09:37,613 Speaker 4: from Christian leaders to all members of Parliament. The parallels 1060 01:09:37,653 --> 01:09:42,053 Speaker 4: to pre war Nazi Germany are as follows. One particular 1061 01:09:42,133 --> 01:09:45,933 Speaker 4: race is favored. The churches have forgotten what scripture says. 1062 01:09:46,373 --> 01:09:49,813 Speaker 4: The churches have chosen a political side, and there is 1063 01:09:49,893 --> 01:09:54,773 Speaker 4: deep internal division about what is really important. For the 1064 01:09:54,773 --> 01:09:57,773 Speaker 4: most part, churches in Nazi Germany look the other way 1065 01:09:57,813 --> 01:10:01,333 Speaker 4: when terrible things were happening to innocent people, rather than 1066 01:10:01,373 --> 01:10:05,133 Speaker 4: speaking out as the moral conscience of society. For the 1067 01:10:05,253 --> 01:10:08,173 Speaker 4: four hundred and forty leaders who have signed this open 1068 01:10:08,773 --> 01:10:13,213 Speaker 4: they have forgotten that quote. There is neither jew nor gentile, 1069 01:10:13,373 --> 01:10:17,173 Speaker 4: neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, 1070 01:10:17,293 --> 01:10:21,613 Speaker 4: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Once church 1071 01:10:21,613 --> 01:10:24,893 Speaker 4: has choose to avoid conflict with the ruling political powers, 1072 01:10:24,893 --> 01:10:26,693 Speaker 4: it will not be long until they are forced to 1073 01:10:26,693 --> 01:10:28,773 Speaker 4: look the other way, as the how they have willingly 1074 01:10:28,853 --> 01:10:33,533 Speaker 4: supported threatens their existence too. It's not too late to 1075 01:10:33,733 --> 01:10:36,373 Speaker 4: decide as a nation if we are truly one people 1076 01:10:36,453 --> 01:10:38,853 Speaker 4: under the law, or if we want to go down 1077 01:10:38,853 --> 01:10:41,573 Speaker 4: the path of racial division, which will only fuel the 1078 01:10:41,573 --> 01:10:43,413 Speaker 4: fires of injustice. 1079 01:10:43,613 --> 01:10:44,493 Speaker 3: And that is from. 1080 01:10:44,413 --> 01:10:51,333 Speaker 2: Chris Chris brilliant actually very good. Dear Carolyn and late 1081 01:10:51,573 --> 01:10:54,573 Speaker 2: Elon Musk. Endorsing Donald Trump has created a mindset for 1082 01:10:54,653 --> 01:10:57,093 Speaker 2: a lot of our media in New Zealand, so when 1083 01:10:57,133 --> 01:10:59,373 Speaker 2: they do something news related about him, they want to 1084 01:10:59,413 --> 01:11:03,853 Speaker 2: handle it in a belittling way. This shows that worldwide, 1085 01:11:04,013 --> 01:11:07,533 Speaker 2: anyone supporting the center right of politics, like Musk, has 1086 01:11:07,613 --> 01:11:10,893 Speaker 2: to have strength of character. I think you should talk 1087 01:11:10,893 --> 01:11:15,853 Speaker 2: about strength of character to today after the interview. Another 1088 01:11:15,893 --> 01:11:19,933 Speaker 2: thing what Carolyn said in the last podcast about reading 1089 01:11:19,973 --> 01:11:23,133 Speaker 2: the Herald, I do the same, and that was if 1090 01:11:23,173 --> 01:11:28,133 Speaker 2: I remember correctly choosing your bylines. Also a thing I 1091 01:11:28,253 --> 01:11:31,213 Speaker 2: sometimes do is to read the last couple of paragraphs 1092 01:11:31,333 --> 01:11:34,133 Speaker 2: of an article first to make sure the writing is 1093 01:11:34,253 --> 01:11:38,333 Speaker 2: correct to a positive headline and not a negative response. 1094 01:11:38,693 --> 01:11:41,733 Speaker 2: There is one person that the Herald has that lists 1095 01:11:41,853 --> 01:11:44,493 Speaker 2: under his name all the things the paper gives him 1096 01:11:44,493 --> 01:11:48,093 Speaker 2: the authority to write on. It seems to make him 1097 01:11:48,133 --> 01:11:51,453 Speaker 2: a left leaning handyman writer. I wish the paper would 1098 01:11:51,453 --> 01:11:53,773 Speaker 2: allocate some of those things to someone else to get 1099 01:11:54,293 --> 01:11:58,453 Speaker 2: a diversity of professional opinion. I still support enzed Me 1100 01:11:58,653 --> 01:12:01,733 Speaker 2: by your podcast Radio zed Me and the Herald as 1101 01:12:01,733 --> 01:12:06,693 Speaker 2: well as the local newspaper by nz me when out 1102 01:12:06,693 --> 01:12:10,253 Speaker 2: of town regards Colin oh and more a bit of reaction. 1103 01:12:10,333 --> 01:12:15,413 Speaker 4: Actually, yes, I think it did, didn't it? Laden Steve says, 1104 01:12:15,493 --> 01:12:18,413 Speaker 4: Yet again we find our country, New Zealand, is under 1105 01:12:18,413 --> 01:12:20,773 Speaker 4: a full attack by those who presume they speak for 1106 01:12:20,853 --> 01:12:24,853 Speaker 4: all New Zealanders and who manipulate the treaty and believe 1107 01:12:24,893 --> 01:12:28,093 Speaker 4: only they can interpret a near two hundred year old 1108 01:12:28,133 --> 01:12:31,853 Speaker 4: document written for that age and never imagined by the 1109 01:12:31,893 --> 01:12:35,333 Speaker 4: authors to reflect on life as it is today. We 1110 01:12:35,533 --> 01:12:39,533 Speaker 4: now have supposedly four hundred church leaders writing to stop 1111 01:12:39,573 --> 01:12:42,573 Speaker 4: the treaty's principal bill. Who are they to presume they 1112 01:12:42,573 --> 01:12:45,333 Speaker 4: speak for all New Zealanders? Who makes them think or 1113 01:12:45,373 --> 01:12:48,093 Speaker 4: believe they know or have the right to say only 1114 01:12:48,173 --> 01:12:51,893 Speaker 4: they know what that archaic document written and translated in 1115 01:12:51,973 --> 01:12:55,213 Speaker 4: three days by an Englishman for a purpose to suit 1116 01:12:55,253 --> 01:12:59,413 Speaker 4: the eighteen forties, what they think it could mean today? 1117 01:13:00,573 --> 01:13:04,293 Speaker 4: These religious groups are entitled to an opinion as individuals 1118 01:13:04,373 --> 01:13:07,053 Speaker 4: and under free speech. But yet again the left media 1119 01:13:07,173 --> 01:13:11,333 Speaker 4: enjoy sensational as they forget how religion is also a 1120 01:13:11,413 --> 01:13:14,933 Speaker 4: dying entity in today's world. I vote them out and 1121 01:13:15,053 --> 01:13:18,413 Speaker 4: their dying opinion null and void, says Steve. 1122 01:13:18,373 --> 01:13:22,653 Speaker 2: Null and void. I like it from Simon A Latent. 1123 01:13:22,733 --> 01:13:24,893 Speaker 2: I note a comment in the last podcast where you 1124 01:13:24,973 --> 01:13:30,613 Speaker 2: assumed I've never forgotten a woman who dressed me down 1125 01:13:30,653 --> 01:13:34,373 Speaker 2: once told me how to pronounce it, not assumed assumed 1126 01:13:35,613 --> 01:13:39,093 Speaker 2: that Trump would be elected the next president of the US. 1127 01:13:39,453 --> 01:13:42,653 Speaker 2: He is up against a left media that praises Carmela 1128 01:13:42,733 --> 01:13:47,853 Speaker 2: Harris as a competent and successful leader. They never report 1129 01:13:47,893 --> 01:13:51,653 Speaker 2: anything negative about the Democrats, but trash Trump at every opportunity. 1130 01:13:52,413 --> 01:13:54,933 Speaker 2: The fact the polling shows Trump and Harris's neck and 1131 01:13:55,013 --> 01:14:00,333 Speaker 2: neck proves either Americans lack intelligence or are believing the 1132 01:14:00,453 --> 01:14:04,173 Speaker 2: narrative the media wants them to believe. Also, on the 1133 01:14:04,493 --> 01:14:07,813 Speaker 2: transgender nonsense. As a child, I wanted to be a pirate. 1134 01:14:08,613 --> 01:14:10,373 Speaker 2: My parents didn't take me to have an eye and 1135 01:14:10,413 --> 01:14:13,093 Speaker 2: a leg removed Keep up the Great podcast, so I 1136 01:14:13,133 --> 01:14:18,493 Speaker 2: thoroughly enjoyed the simon there's a response to your email 1137 01:14:18,893 --> 01:14:20,813 Speaker 2: was reart to Trump that I'm going to park at 1138 01:14:20,813 --> 01:14:21,413 Speaker 2: the back end. 1139 01:14:22,533 --> 01:14:25,493 Speaker 4: Leyden Jin says in September twenty twenty one, I made 1140 01:14:25,533 --> 01:14:30,453 Speaker 4: an oral submission against the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships 1141 01:14:30,493 --> 01:14:34,133 Speaker 4: Registration Bill, which was being ram rated into law by 1142 01:14:34,173 --> 01:14:38,253 Speaker 4: the last Labor and Green's government. This bill allowed anyone 1143 01:14:38,293 --> 01:14:42,133 Speaker 4: to change their sex on their birth certificate, thereby permitting 1144 01:14:42,173 --> 01:14:45,453 Speaker 4: anyone to lie about their history right from birth. I 1145 01:14:45,693 --> 01:14:49,253 Speaker 4: argued that a birth certificate is supposed to record facts, 1146 01:14:49,373 --> 01:14:53,013 Speaker 4: not feelings. I remember the panel asking me why this 1147 01:14:53,173 --> 01:14:56,493 Speaker 4: was so important to me. I said it's because I 1148 01:14:56,533 --> 01:14:58,693 Speaker 4: have a daughter and I want to protect her and 1149 01:14:58,893 --> 01:15:03,213 Speaker 4: other girls. As expected, they ignored me and passed this 1150 01:15:03,373 --> 01:15:07,733 Speaker 4: law despite countless others who voiced similar concerns as mine. 1151 01:15:08,333 --> 01:15:11,773 Speaker 4: The previous government knew that the bill gave them leverage 1152 01:15:11,933 --> 01:15:15,053 Speaker 4: to force us to permit men to compete in women's sports, 1153 01:15:15,413 --> 01:15:18,893 Speaker 4: open up women's bathrooms to men who identify as women, 1154 01:15:19,373 --> 01:15:23,733 Speaker 4: and mispronoun boys and girls. And yet now that we 1155 01:15:23,813 --> 01:15:26,933 Speaker 4: have a more conservative government in power, that as of 1156 01:15:26,973 --> 01:15:31,493 Speaker 4: a law remains with us. This proves James Allen's point 1157 01:15:31,893 --> 01:15:35,733 Speaker 4: the right never appeals bad laws that the left ram through. 1158 01:15:36,413 --> 01:15:39,773 Speaker 4: If it took the misinterpretation of rov Weighed over fifty 1159 01:15:39,853 --> 01:15:42,813 Speaker 4: years to get corrected, we might have to live with 1160 01:15:42,893 --> 01:15:48,133 Speaker 4: the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Bill for decades 1161 01:15:48,493 --> 01:15:52,533 Speaker 4: until it gets corrected when more conservative judges are appointed 1162 01:15:52,573 --> 01:15:56,613 Speaker 4: to replace the current lot of communist judges. Thanks Shane 1163 01:15:56,693 --> 01:15:59,933 Speaker 4: Jones for the Moniker, or when this bad law is 1164 01:15:59,973 --> 01:16:03,053 Speaker 4: so heavily enforced that New Zealand does deeply feel the 1165 01:16:03,053 --> 01:16:07,213 Speaker 4: pain it inflicts. As Abraham Lincoln said, the best way 1166 01:16:07,253 --> 01:16:09,733 Speaker 4: to get a bad law apare field is to enforce 1167 01:16:09,773 --> 01:16:10,893 Speaker 4: it strictly. 1168 01:16:12,253 --> 01:16:14,893 Speaker 2: Let me give you a bit of a conspiracy theory. 1169 01:16:15,333 --> 01:16:17,893 Speaker 2: Talking about that law being with us for that long, 1170 01:16:18,333 --> 01:16:22,773 Speaker 2: what do you think the changes would ring to such 1171 01:16:22,813 --> 01:16:25,453 Speaker 2: a law. The answer is that we would have fewer 1172 01:16:25,493 --> 01:16:28,933 Speaker 2: people on the planet because the growth of sterility would 1173 01:16:28,933 --> 01:16:31,573 Speaker 2: mean it wouldn't be so many children, so therefore the 1174 01:16:32,013 --> 01:16:35,933 Speaker 2: numbers would decrease. And that is one of the alleged 1175 01:16:36,173 --> 01:16:41,733 Speaker 2: agendas of the globalists, is it? Yeah, it is actually 1176 01:16:42,693 --> 01:16:50,653 Speaker 2: okay globalists. Laden Phillips says, I was only responding to yours. Oh, 1177 01:16:51,813 --> 01:16:53,373 Speaker 2: if the law can make them, well, here we are. 1178 01:16:53,413 --> 01:16:56,133 Speaker 2: This is this is quite appropriate. If the law can 1179 01:16:56,173 --> 01:16:59,333 Speaker 2: make a man to be a woman, then an active 1180 01:16:59,413 --> 01:17:02,333 Speaker 2: parliament can declare that I have the powers of superman. 1181 01:17:03,053 --> 01:17:04,533 Speaker 2: I look forward to being able to fly to the 1182 01:17:04,533 --> 01:17:07,133 Speaker 2: moon and back by my own power without a spaceship 1183 01:17:07,213 --> 01:17:12,053 Speaker 2: or space suit. Josh, that's I think brilliant. Let me 1184 01:17:12,093 --> 01:17:13,213 Speaker 2: know when takeoff. 1185 01:17:14,693 --> 01:17:17,373 Speaker 4: Lighton. Philip says, I had to laugh at your lack 1186 01:17:17,413 --> 01:17:20,333 Speaker 4: of defense of the New Zealand Herald. Carolyn saved you 1187 01:17:22,413 --> 01:17:26,253 Speaker 4: ensure your thought provoking and informative podcasts listen to you 1188 01:17:26,333 --> 01:17:28,893 Speaker 4: and living in Australia for twenty years and the ten 1189 01:17:28,973 --> 01:17:31,813 Speaker 4: years we have been back in New Zealand. Thanks for 1190 01:17:31,893 --> 01:17:33,573 Speaker 4: your efforts. And that's from Philip. 1191 01:17:33,653 --> 01:17:36,533 Speaker 2: Well, that's dedication. If ever, I yes, if ever I 1192 01:17:36,573 --> 01:17:37,053 Speaker 2: came across. 1193 01:17:37,253 --> 01:17:39,933 Speaker 4: Nice, nice to know that you came back. Well, one 1194 01:17:40,013 --> 01:17:42,973 Speaker 4: person has actually come back. That's a good thing. Well, 1195 01:17:43,013 --> 01:17:44,533 Speaker 4: and why Philip, we would like to know. 1196 01:17:44,733 --> 01:17:46,573 Speaker 2: Well, if you go back to nineteen eighty five, you 1197 01:17:47,053 --> 01:17:50,053 Speaker 2: might remember that I came back to So that's two. 1198 01:17:50,013 --> 01:17:52,293 Speaker 4: Of us, two of you have come back. 1199 01:17:52,373 --> 01:17:52,933 Speaker 3: This is good. 1200 01:17:54,333 --> 01:17:58,333 Speaker 2: Now from vic Ana, Vic wrote last week you might 1201 01:17:58,413 --> 01:18:04,413 Speaker 2: remember missus producer Vic was making some comment and all 1202 01:18:04,533 --> 01:18:07,453 Speaker 2: will be revealed as I read this. He says, thank 1203 01:18:07,493 --> 01:18:10,373 Speaker 2: you for accepting Mike comment and for the right of reply. 1204 01:18:11,333 --> 01:18:13,773 Speaker 2: With the help of Professor James Allen, an expert in 1205 01:18:13,813 --> 01:18:19,413 Speaker 2: Australian law, I now understand that Justice Bromwich was apparently 1206 01:18:19,573 --> 01:18:23,613 Speaker 2: a political appointee, and he had other somewhat obscure options, 1207 01:18:24,133 --> 01:18:28,653 Speaker 2: facts of which I was obviously unaware. I suggest the 1208 01:18:28,773 --> 01:18:31,453 Speaker 2: vast majority of your listeners were also unaware of his 1209 01:18:31,573 --> 01:18:35,653 Speaker 2: status and those options. Such is the advantage of having 1210 01:18:35,693 --> 01:18:40,133 Speaker 2: experts on your podcasts, and your astute choice of such experts. 1211 01:18:40,893 --> 01:18:44,453 Speaker 2: He's quite right there in both counts. Have I changed 1212 01:18:44,453 --> 01:18:46,613 Speaker 2: my mind? Let me say that I was not happy 1213 01:18:46,613 --> 01:18:50,093 Speaker 2: with Bromig's judgment in the first place. I still think 1214 01:18:50,133 --> 01:18:53,213 Speaker 2: the labels such as idiot and moron, which I am 1215 01:18:53,293 --> 01:18:55,733 Speaker 2: applied to Bromich. I still think the label such as 1216 01:18:55,813 --> 01:18:59,213 Speaker 2: idiot and moron are somewhat inappropriate, but that is just 1217 01:18:59,333 --> 01:19:02,733 Speaker 2: my opinion. I now hold out some hope for an appeal, 1218 01:19:02,773 --> 01:19:07,053 Speaker 2: but Giggles will need an exceptional lawyer with a similar 1219 01:19:07,053 --> 01:19:10,773 Speaker 2: depth of knowledge to them of Professor Allan still an 1220 01:19:10,813 --> 01:19:13,013 Speaker 2: avid listener, I beg. I knew you would be because 1221 01:19:13,093 --> 01:19:16,533 Speaker 2: you wrote with You wrote with a style that I recognized. 1222 01:19:17,053 --> 01:19:18,453 Speaker 2: But there was something I was going to add there. 1223 01:19:18,493 --> 01:19:19,733 Speaker 3: What was it? Now? Oh? 1224 01:19:19,813 --> 01:19:23,653 Speaker 2: Yes, let me just say that the words idiot and 1225 01:19:23,693 --> 01:19:29,893 Speaker 2: moron are thrown around with gay abandon these days in 1226 01:19:29,933 --> 01:19:33,933 Speaker 2: the world. I've realized the world has changed dramatically, and 1227 01:19:33,973 --> 01:19:37,413 Speaker 2: you can sort of hang in there and refuse to 1228 01:19:38,333 --> 01:19:42,693 Speaker 2: say what you think in terminology that you understand and 1229 01:19:43,013 --> 01:19:43,613 Speaker 2: like to use. 1230 01:19:43,973 --> 01:19:47,533 Speaker 3: It's never been you though, I'm sorry. 1231 01:19:48,653 --> 01:19:51,253 Speaker 2: Anyway you can you can. You can choose to do that, 1232 01:19:51,333 --> 01:19:56,053 Speaker 2: maybe get a job on national radio, but elsewhere elsewhere 1233 01:19:56,053 --> 01:19:59,693 Speaker 2: in the world. It's loosened up, and it's loosened up dramatically, 1234 01:19:59,853 --> 01:20:02,213 Speaker 2: for better or worse. I say for better or worse, 1235 01:20:02,773 --> 01:20:04,493 Speaker 2: and I put it. I put one more thing to 1236 01:20:04,533 --> 01:20:07,573 Speaker 2: you with regard to Trump. Trump is a man for 1237 01:20:07,653 --> 01:20:09,133 Speaker 2: the times. End of story. 1238 01:20:10,493 --> 01:20:14,213 Speaker 4: John says, I have followed all your podcasts and enjoy them. 1239 01:20:14,573 --> 01:20:17,213 Speaker 4: On episode two five three, I listened to your discussion 1240 01:20:17,293 --> 01:20:20,653 Speaker 4: in part on the Virgin Mary. Back in the early 1241 01:20:20,733 --> 01:20:25,093 Speaker 4: nineteen eighties, I did theology studies. What we understood a 1242 01:20:25,213 --> 01:20:28,333 Speaker 4: virgin woman to be back two thousand years ago was 1243 01:20:28,373 --> 01:20:33,053 Speaker 4: a term given only to a high society woman, and 1244 01:20:33,253 --> 01:20:37,213 Speaker 4: over time the term then became the sexual connotation it 1245 01:20:37,253 --> 01:20:37,893 Speaker 4: is today. 1246 01:20:38,453 --> 01:20:42,053 Speaker 2: That's from John John. I don't know that I accept that, 1247 01:20:42,653 --> 01:20:47,493 Speaker 2: but I don't deny it either, because I also somewhere 1248 01:20:47,533 --> 01:20:51,053 Speaker 2: in my past remember that that sort of interpretation being 1249 01:20:51,053 --> 01:20:53,293 Speaker 2: put on the word, but I've never followed it up. 1250 01:20:53,573 --> 01:20:55,453 Speaker 2: So I actually got to do that as best I 1251 01:20:55,493 --> 01:20:59,013 Speaker 2: can and report back to you. But thank you as 1252 01:20:59,053 --> 01:20:59,613 Speaker 2: a producer. 1253 01:20:59,933 --> 01:21:00,373 Speaker 3: That'll do. 1254 01:21:00,893 --> 01:21:02,013 Speaker 2: Thanks later we've done. 1255 01:21:02,373 --> 01:21:03,453 Speaker 3: I'm off for this one. 1256 01:21:04,253 --> 01:21:06,813 Speaker 2: No, you're not. You're never off. If you mean you're 1257 01:21:06,893 --> 01:21:09,013 Speaker 2: leaving that, I accepted. See you next week. 1258 01:21:09,853 --> 01:21:10,253 Speaker 3: I think so. 1259 01:21:23,973 --> 01:21:26,133 Speaker 2: Now, what I'm about to quote you is something that 1260 01:21:26,293 --> 01:21:29,213 Speaker 2: belongs in the mail room, but I take them out 1261 01:21:29,213 --> 01:21:33,893 Speaker 2: of the mail room sometimes for various reasons, but they 1262 01:21:33,933 --> 01:21:37,053 Speaker 2: all have something in common. This is a long letter 1263 01:21:37,933 --> 01:21:41,173 Speaker 2: and it's deserving of a little more attention than I 1264 01:21:41,253 --> 01:21:42,773 Speaker 2: might have given it or been able to give it 1265 01:21:42,813 --> 01:21:44,733 Speaker 2: in the mail room. And I want to respond to 1266 01:21:44,733 --> 01:21:49,213 Speaker 2: it as we as we read. Evelyn wrote this and 1267 01:21:49,373 --> 01:21:51,773 Speaker 2: it got me. Well see if it gets you the 1268 01:21:51,773 --> 01:21:54,573 Speaker 2: way it got me, it says says. I received an 1269 01:21:54,573 --> 01:21:58,093 Speaker 2: email from Family First regarding submitting a response to the 1270 01:21:58,173 --> 01:22:04,093 Speaker 2: Law Commission's review of transgender anti discrimination laws. I inwardly 1271 01:22:04,213 --> 01:22:08,013 Speaker 2: groaned at the thought and mentally put it to one side. However, 1272 01:22:08,053 --> 01:22:10,613 Speaker 2: yes day afternoon I started to listen to your podcast 1273 01:22:11,333 --> 01:22:13,573 Speaker 2: in brackets, as I do each Wednesday. Thank you so 1274 01:22:13,693 --> 01:22:17,933 Speaker 2: much and you're welcome, And after listening to your interview 1275 01:22:17,973 --> 01:22:21,373 Speaker 2: with Professor Allen, decided to revisit the Family First email. 1276 01:22:22,413 --> 01:22:26,413 Speaker 2: The Law Commission document is over two hundred pages long, 1277 01:22:27,173 --> 01:22:30,653 Speaker 2: and it's full of mention of aete rower New Zealand 1278 01:22:30,773 --> 01:22:34,533 Speaker 2: marine names and terms and confusing jargon at a very 1279 01:22:34,653 --> 01:22:38,813 Speaker 2: detailed level. The submission form is also very detailed and 1280 01:22:38,853 --> 01:22:42,533 Speaker 2: one specific replies to each chapter. I attempted to write 1281 01:22:42,533 --> 01:22:46,053 Speaker 2: my thoughts in the boxes. It was a lengthy, tedious 1282 01:22:46,613 --> 01:22:50,613 Speaker 2: process where you had to keep switching from the submission 1283 01:22:50,693 --> 01:22:54,093 Speaker 2: form to the document to understand the context of each question. 1284 01:22:55,053 --> 01:22:58,133 Speaker 2: They also state somewhere that they will not accept any 1285 01:22:58,173 --> 01:23:01,933 Speaker 2: disrespectful comments or words to that effect. I never thought 1286 01:23:01,973 --> 01:23:04,333 Speaker 2: that that would be an issue for me, but I 1287 01:23:04,413 --> 01:23:08,213 Speaker 2: felt it took some effort to remain polite and not 1288 01:23:08,453 --> 01:23:12,853 Speaker 2: resort to sarcasm. I just refer back to my comments 1289 01:23:12,853 --> 01:23:17,613 Speaker 2: to this assignment earlier with regard to language. I am 1290 01:23:17,653 --> 01:23:22,333 Speaker 2: a professional and self employed and of sound mind. However, 1291 01:23:22,493 --> 01:23:24,813 Speaker 2: as I began wading through what I believe to be 1292 01:23:25,013 --> 01:23:28,413 Speaker 2: this load of nonsense, I've felt my patience waning and 1293 01:23:28,453 --> 01:23:32,613 Speaker 2: my frustration growing, asking myself, how did we get to this? 1294 01:23:33,453 --> 01:23:35,973 Speaker 2: A lot of people are asking that question in various ways. 1295 01:23:36,453 --> 01:23:39,413 Speaker 2: I've heard many people refer to the Left as living 1296 01:23:39,493 --> 01:23:42,253 Speaker 2: in an echo chamber and have wondered if I, too 1297 01:23:42,373 --> 01:23:45,853 Speaker 2: was living in my own Clearly, I have been as 1298 01:23:45,893 --> 01:23:48,733 Speaker 2: I felt I had landed on another planet. Reading the 1299 01:23:48,813 --> 01:23:52,573 Speaker 2: Law Commission review and submission questions and I have no 1300 01:23:52,693 --> 01:23:55,773 Speaker 2: desire to listen to any more of this nonsense. We 1301 01:23:55,813 --> 01:23:59,453 Speaker 2: are in very shaky financial times and I am constantly 1302 01:23:59,573 --> 01:24:02,653 Speaker 2: astounded as to how we have the time and resources 1303 01:24:02,693 --> 01:24:07,053 Speaker 2: to even consider investigating issues like this one. It seems 1304 01:24:07,133 --> 01:24:10,453 Speaker 2: so far fetched to be doing so while driving over 1305 01:24:10,533 --> 01:24:14,013 Speaker 2: potholes in our roads and seeing many qualified young people 1306 01:24:14,013 --> 01:24:18,173 Speaker 2: struggling to get into the workforce, as every job advertised 1307 01:24:18,293 --> 01:24:22,733 Speaker 2: is seeking applicants with experience, not to mention the work 1308 01:24:22,853 --> 01:24:27,493 Speaker 2: needed to improve education, health, law and order, and much more. 1309 01:24:27,973 --> 01:24:32,013 Speaker 2: The document discusses privacy for transgender people, and I can't 1310 01:24:32,013 --> 01:24:34,413 Speaker 2: help but think of how everyone's privacy went out the 1311 01:24:34,453 --> 01:24:38,053 Speaker 2: window when COVID vaccine passes were issued and required to 1312 01:24:38,053 --> 01:24:42,573 Speaker 2: be shown just to enter a cafe. The document discusses 1313 01:24:42,613 --> 01:24:46,493 Speaker 2: privacy for transgender people. I don't see how you can 1314 01:24:46,573 --> 01:24:50,933 Speaker 2: have anti discrimination laws for transgender people without removing the 1315 01:24:50,973 --> 01:24:55,333 Speaker 2: same protection for women or employers. And by the way, 1316 01:24:55,453 --> 01:25:00,453 Speaker 2: I do not like the term cisgender. I Commendjuloven's as 1317 01:25:00,493 --> 01:25:03,853 Speaker 2: someone from the left for standing up to this. I'm 1318 01:25:03,933 --> 01:25:06,413 Speaker 2: unsure if I can face completing the submission that I 1319 01:25:06,493 --> 01:25:10,653 Speaker 2: started by the deadline of five pm today, which was 1320 01:25:11,333 --> 01:25:16,813 Speaker 2: five September. It raises so many broader questions, like why 1321 01:25:16,933 --> 01:25:19,653 Speaker 2: is the Law Commission referring to our country as aetiro 1322 01:25:19,733 --> 01:25:22,333 Speaker 2: row and New Zealand. It not only grates on my 1323 01:25:22,453 --> 01:25:28,373 Speaker 2: nerves but adds unnecessary words to an already wordy document. Jeez, Heavelyn, 1324 01:25:28,413 --> 01:25:31,533 Speaker 2: I'm with you one hundred and ten percent. I do 1325 01:25:31,573 --> 01:25:34,333 Speaker 2: not want to take any of it seriously, and with 1326 01:25:34,693 --> 01:25:37,093 Speaker 2: all the commentary on the issue, all I can think 1327 01:25:37,173 --> 01:25:40,493 Speaker 2: of is the Emperor's new clothes. I so enjoy your 1328 01:25:40,493 --> 01:25:45,533 Speaker 2: podcast and love Carolyn. We have never met, but feel 1329 01:25:45,573 --> 01:25:49,733 Speaker 2: we could be great friends. Kind regards, Evelyn, and then 1330 01:25:49,733 --> 01:25:52,933 Speaker 2: a ps. I have drafted several emails to you over 1331 01:25:52,973 --> 01:25:55,893 Speaker 2: the years, but they usually stay in the draft folder 1332 01:25:56,293 --> 01:25:59,493 Speaker 2: and never get sent. It's a shame because you write well. 1333 01:26:00,853 --> 01:26:03,453 Speaker 2: I can only agree with you. I find nothing in 1334 01:26:03,533 --> 01:26:07,293 Speaker 2: what you've said disagreeable, and I wish that more people 1335 01:26:07,333 --> 01:26:09,773 Speaker 2: would exp well. I wish that more people would make 1336 01:26:09,813 --> 01:26:11,733 Speaker 2: their expressions felt. 1337 01:26:12,253 --> 01:26:14,333 Speaker 3: How do we do that? Well? 1338 01:26:14,573 --> 01:26:17,373 Speaker 2: There are a myriad of ways, really, but many of us, 1339 01:26:17,613 --> 01:26:22,253 Speaker 2: many of us are just a bit embarrassed to do it. Unfortunately, Evelyn, 1340 01:26:22,333 --> 01:26:24,733 Speaker 2: thank you and make sure that that's not the last 1341 01:26:24,813 --> 01:26:29,613 Speaker 2: letter you said, Leighton Smith, and with that we conclude 1342 01:26:29,693 --> 01:26:32,453 Speaker 2: podcast number two hundred and fifty five. If you would 1343 01:26:32,493 --> 01:26:36,333 Speaker 2: like to correspond with us, very simple email Layton at 1344 01:26:36,373 --> 01:26:40,013 Speaker 2: newstalks ab dot co dot nz or Carolyn at newstalksb 1345 01:26:40,133 --> 01:26:43,373 Speaker 2: dot co dot enz. We do love getting e mail. 1346 01:26:43,453 --> 01:26:46,413 Speaker 2: I know I keep saying that, but it's true. It's 1347 01:26:46,453 --> 01:26:49,453 Speaker 2: always a bit of an adventure. Latin at newstalks ab 1348 01:26:49,533 --> 01:26:52,093 Speaker 2: dot co dot nz or Carolyn at newstalks Ab dot 1349 01:26:52,093 --> 01:26:55,533 Speaker 2: co dot nz. We shall return shortly with podcasts number 1350 01:26:55,533 --> 01:26:59,853 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty six. Until then, as always, thank 1351 01:26:59,893 --> 01:27:01,773 Speaker 2: you for listening and we shall talk soon. 1352 01:27:09,613 --> 01:27:13,293 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talk st B. Listen 1353 01:27:13,373 --> 01:27:16,333 Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with 1354 01:27:16,453 --> 01:27:19,533 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio