WEBVTT - Online exploitation cases on the rise - here's how and why predators are targeting Kiwi kids

0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.840
<v Speaker 1>A warning that today's episode contains content that listeners might

0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.080
<v Speaker 1>find disturbing. You can find support links in our show

0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:16.320
<v Speaker 1>notes Kyota. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and

0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.440
<v Speaker 1>this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by

0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:26.279
<v Speaker 1>the New Zealand Herald. New Zealand police are becoming increasingly

0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.760
<v Speaker 1>concerned about online groups targeting Kiwi children through social media.

0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Apps like Snapchat have become a breeding ground for sex

0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:38.840
<v Speaker 1>abuse material, while overseas groups are actively participating in sadistic

0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.360
<v Speaker 1>online exploitation. And it's not just happening offshore. With two

0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.599
<v Speaker 1>sisters this week sharing their story of being targeted by

0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.280
<v Speaker 1>a Wellington man masquerading as an eleven year old girl

0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.160
<v Speaker 1>in Zied. Herald investigative reporter Michael Mora has been looking

0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.640
<v Speaker 1>into this case for months and joins us today on

0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:06.959
<v Speaker 1>the front Page to explore what's happening online. So, Michael,

0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.160
<v Speaker 1>how did you come to investigate this particular field.

0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've got two daughters, and I guess I was

0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:21.600
<v Speaker 2>particularly concerned by just how much technology phones. Access to

0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:26.680
<v Speaker 2>the Internet was such a driver for my girls. They

0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.360
<v Speaker 2>were so interested in it. When I grew up, we

0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.560
<v Speaker 2>would watch some cartoons in the afternoon after school, but

0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.480
<v Speaker 2>they only go for about an hour and then it

0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.240
<v Speaker 2>would go into the news hour and more adult programming,

0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.680
<v Speaker 2>and you had that small window where you might watch

0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:46.080
<v Speaker 2>a cartoon. But at the moment, technology is just everywhere,

0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.200
<v Speaker 2>and in a way, children and young people are growing

0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.960
<v Speaker 2>up with this. They're growing up seeing their parents attached

0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.840
<v Speaker 2>to these phones, swiping these phones, and it is consistently

0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of in their face. And I guess why I

0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:07.080
<v Speaker 2>started to look into this field was because of the

0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.440
<v Speaker 2>rise and concerns around the world and also here in

0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:15.840
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand about the damage that early access can cause,

0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:22.440
<v Speaker 2>but also the way in which social media companies have expanded,

0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.639
<v Speaker 2>and that's been massive in the past ten years. There

0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.960
<v Speaker 2>are so many different platforms, all eager to get eyes

0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:38.040
<v Speaker 2>and ears onto them, and this in turn presents a

0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.720
<v Speaker 2>problem because a lot of these spaces are designed by

0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:48.440
<v Speaker 2>their very nature to be sites that are encrypted or protected,

0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and they anonymize use and they allow engagement with other

0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.880
<v Speaker 2>people around the world, which on the face of it

0:02:56.000 --> 0:03:01.480
<v Speaker 2>sounds fine. But the problem is is that predators and

0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:08.840
<v Speaker 2>pedophiles know that this is a very easy way to

0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.079
<v Speaker 2>target children. And I think that's horrific and there are

0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:18.120
<v Speaker 2>many examples of police investigations into this sort of thing.

0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you spoke with the police back in March

0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.679
<v Speaker 1>and one of your first stories about this what sort

0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.160
<v Speaker 1>of things are they seeing on a daily basis.

0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, we know, for example that from the facts that

0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:35.160
<v Speaker 2>the statistics show that that referrals from these big tech

0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.839
<v Speaker 2>companies are going up hugely. So if you look at Snapchat,

0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.640
<v Speaker 2>in the space of a year, referrals to New Zealand

0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Police have more than doubled, So they're about one thousand,

0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.000
<v Speaker 2>five hundred and forty nine referrals over a twelve month period.

0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.120
<v Speaker 2>And when you look back on the year prior, it

0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.960
<v Speaker 2>was about six hundred and seventeen complaints that were referred

0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.080
<v Speaker 2>to New Zealand Police. Now, these referrals come from a

0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.520
<v Speaker 2>place called neck MECH or the National Center for Exploited

0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.120
<v Speaker 2>and Missing Children in the US, so they get information

0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.600
<v Speaker 2>on problematic communications or images and then they go right,

0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.600
<v Speaker 2>this is happening in New Zealand. And actually this user

0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.840
<v Speaker 2>who is obtaining these images or video, objection and or

0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.400
<v Speaker 2>material is based in New Zealand, so those referrals are

0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.720
<v Speaker 2>going there. Now we're also seeing increases on other social

0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:32.479
<v Speaker 2>media platforms like TikTok roadblocks. Of course, the social media

0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.960
<v Speaker 2>companies would say, oh, well, this is happening because we

0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.000
<v Speaker 2>have really good systems in place now where we are

0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.400
<v Speaker 2>reporting more. We have better ways for people to make

0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.760
<v Speaker 2>complaints or make referrals within the app. And that may

0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.440
<v Speaker 2>well be true. But the other point I would make

0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.000
<v Speaker 2>that would be true is that these referrals from the

0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.680
<v Speaker 2>US to New Zealand police would only be a tiny

0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.480
<v Speaker 2>fraction of the actual harm that is going on.

0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.080
<v Speaker 3>We don't want to alarm parents out there. We just

0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.200
<v Speaker 3>want them to be aware of some of the risks

0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.919
<v Speaker 3>online which is similar to sextortion and other child sexual

0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.760
<v Speaker 3>abuse material, and just making sure they put the right

0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.600
<v Speaker 3>privacy settings and have those conversations in place to keep

0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.400
<v Speaker 3>the young people safe.

0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.480
<v Speaker 4>Some of the things that I'm aware of are looking

0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.800
<v Speaker 4>for changes in behavior of their children. They might be

0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:30.480
<v Speaker 4>visible things that you know that they are concerned about,

0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.480
<v Speaker 4>the sort of reclusion, so starting to shut themselves away,

0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.320
<v Speaker 4>being secretive about the online activity. If any parents have

0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.480
<v Speaker 4>concerns about that happening with their children, again, not encourage

0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.640
<v Speaker 4>them to report that as soon as possible.

0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.599
<v Speaker 1>I think it might be worth discussing, like the term

0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of online child exploitation. Obviously, you know you've spoken

0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.320
<v Speaker 1>to a lot of people affected by this and that

0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.400
<v Speaker 1>are really sort of close to it, but it does

0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.120
<v Speaker 1>kind of sound like one of those things that you

0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.200
<v Speaker 1>just hear and might be being over reported for fear

0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.840
<v Speaker 1>mong green, Like, how much of an issue is this

0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:08.679
<v Speaker 1>actually do you think?

0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.080
<v Speaker 2>Look, I think it's a huge issue, and I think

0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.200
<v Speaker 2>the scale of the issue is actually probably underreported. And

0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.680
<v Speaker 2>the reason I say that is because I have interviewed

0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:24.080
<v Speaker 2>police from the Online Child Exploitation of New Zealand team.

0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:28.120
<v Speaker 2>I have interviewed the Department of Internal Affairs both from

0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:33.479
<v Speaker 2>their child Exploitation team and also from their Extremist Online team.

0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:38.840
<v Speaker 2>The concerns are real, and the referrals and the number

0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:43.200
<v Speaker 2>of investigations that they are involved in is increasing massively

0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:48.559
<v Speaker 2>year on year, and there's also various developments in terms

0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.880
<v Speaker 2>of how some of these predators are operating. Our listeners

0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.159
<v Speaker 2>may sort of think about sextortion, which is one of

0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.560
<v Speaker 2>the classic ones. You extract an objectionable picture from a

0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.760
<v Speaker 2>young per and then say, look, if you don't give

0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.680
<v Speaker 2>me this amount of money, I will do xyz. There

0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:10.440
<v Speaker 2>are now a new breed of sadistic, right wing young

0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:15.320
<v Speaker 2>people online who are not actually interested in obtaining money,

0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:21.000
<v Speaker 2>but they are trying to get some of the most frightening, cruel,

0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.440
<v Speaker 2>degrading and violent material from young people for the sole

0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:30.680
<v Speaker 2>purpose of building online clout and reputation amongst other like

0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.920
<v Speaker 2>minded people. And the purpose of doing this is that

0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.720
<v Speaker 2>they want to create ultimately social disorder, and so they

0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:42.080
<v Speaker 2>do this by targeting the younger generation. One of the

0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.920
<v Speaker 2>big problems I think is that as parents, you go

0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.520
<v Speaker 2>about the day and think, gosh, well that's a horrific story,

0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.440
<v Speaker 2>but it won't happen to my kid because we're keeping

0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.680
<v Speaker 2>an eye on things. But that's naive. I think there

0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:58.520
<v Speaker 2>are people out there waiting for opportunities to exploit young people,

0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:03.240
<v Speaker 2>waiting for opportunities who strike up some form of fake relationship.

0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.400
<v Speaker 2>And you've got to remember the age of some of

0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the kids who end up with devices. I mean, they're

0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.520
<v Speaker 2>not adults. They want to make friends, they want to

0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.160
<v Speaker 2>join people on games, and that's just human nature.

0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:24.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a nice segue into talking about the

0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.320
<v Speaker 1>story that you published this week, because you mentioned there

0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.560
<v Speaker 1>that like oh, I do everything right. This couldn't possibly

0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.640
<v Speaker 1>happen in my household. But yeah, tell us a little

0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.240
<v Speaker 1>bit about you spoke to a woman calling Victoria and

0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.040
<v Speaker 1>her two kids, Amy and Ivy, and yeah, this is

0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.839
<v Speaker 1>someone who sort of seemingly did everything right.

0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I just first want to acknowledge Victoria, the mother

0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.120
<v Speaker 2>who I interviewed, and her daughter's Amy and Ivy, for

0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.679
<v Speaker 2>their extraordinary bravery and stepping up and discussing this. The

0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.800
<v Speaker 2>sole purpose of them wanting to talk to me was

0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.319
<v Speaker 2>to raise awareness about this issue and to tell other

0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.439
<v Speaker 2>parents and New Zealanders in general that this issue is

0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.360
<v Speaker 2>very real. And of course we have heard from police,

0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.480
<v Speaker 2>we have heard from the Department of Internal Affairs, and

0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.000
<v Speaker 2>we've got great organizations like before sixteen in that movement

0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.760
<v Speaker 2>starting up, which seems to have the support of the

0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister. But what's unique about this story is that

0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.319
<v Speaker 2>we hear the true story from the mother and the victims.

0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.160
<v Speaker 2>The mother, in my view, Victoria did take precautions, and

0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.520
<v Speaker 2>this is what's really interesting. The first time that her

0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:45.720
<v Speaker 2>two daughters had some form of interaction or learnings about

0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.199
<v Speaker 2>a person who ended up being a pedophile was in

0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the primary school. Library, the most innocent of childhood spaces.

0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.120
<v Speaker 1>And I are they even had phones themselves, right.

0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, they did not have phones. And this is the

0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.120
<v Speaker 2>this is the thing. They had a friend who had

0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.920
<v Speaker 2>a phone and these fun videos on zoomrag showing you know,

0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.120
<v Speaker 2>the dancing back and forth, and you know, there's a

0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.160
<v Speaker 2>big trend and kids love it. And of course they

0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.360
<v Speaker 2>never they didn't have phones at this point. But for

0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.280
<v Speaker 2>months in the school library and around the school they

0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.640
<v Speaker 2>were looking over the shoulder of their friend who had

0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.280
<v Speaker 2>this phone and oh wow, look at this. These videos

0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.480
<v Speaker 2>are so fun. It was at that time that the

0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.320
<v Speaker 2>friend said to them, oh, well look at this. I've

0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.119
<v Speaker 2>got a friend. She's an eleven year old from Australia

0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.679
<v Speaker 2>and she's liking my videos and she's commenting on my videos.

0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Of course, the two girls I interviewed thought, this is

0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.920
<v Speaker 2>so cool. An eleven year old from Australia. That's fantastic.

0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.400
<v Speaker 2>And look at this engagement and wow, that's amazing. The

0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:51.319
<v Speaker 2>mother in this case eventually did get her girl's phones

0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.920
<v Speaker 2>for safety reasons, like many parents are doing now if

0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.600
<v Speaker 2>their kids are walking to and from school, for safety reasons,

0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.480
<v Speaker 2>so they can be contacted. All the time, and this

0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.960
<v Speaker 2>is what was happening with her girls. She did not

0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:06.880
<v Speaker 2>allow social media on these phones. But the girls, who

0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:12.360
<v Speaker 2>had witnessed their peers at school seeing Zoomerang in this account,

0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.199
<v Speaker 2>really wanted this this app. So you face that sort

0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.640
<v Speaker 2>of dilemma as a parent, and you know, Victoria in

0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.040
<v Speaker 2>this case, she consulted other mothers at the school. She

0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.760
<v Speaker 2>asked around what zoom rang like, Are there any concerns

0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you know? Everyone said, look, we don't have any concerns

0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.120
<v Speaker 2>about this, and so she allowed this app, which she

0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.360
<v Speaker 2>thought was innocuous and harmless, to be downloaded. And this

0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.800
<v Speaker 2>of course was the time where the girls thought, well,

0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.240
<v Speaker 2>we must add the fun girl from Australia, this eleven

0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.120
<v Speaker 2>year old, because she seems cool and she's been liking

0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.920
<v Speaker 2>our other friends videos, so we want to make friends too.

0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.920
<v Speaker 1>And then so how did this take a turn the story?

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well it took a real turn. And I think

0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.240
<v Speaker 2>it's again important to emphasize before people jump on the

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.400
<v Speaker 2>bandwagon and go, oh, well, you shouldn't have given your

0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.839
<v Speaker 2>kids phones and you shouldn't give them social media. This

0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.760
<v Speaker 2>was in the view of the mother, it was a

0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:10.480
<v Speaker 2>targeted sophisticated and tactical approach by someone who pretended to

0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.720
<v Speaker 2>be an eleven year old girl who we work out

0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.280
<v Speaker 2>was never an eleven year old girl, and what she

0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.400
<v Speaker 2>asked the girls to do, and this took weeks and

0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 2>weeks of trust building right sending the right emojis, building

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.240
<v Speaker 2>up self esteem, talking with the girls about wow, look

0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:30.840
<v Speaker 2>we've got so much in common. You like the same

0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.760
<v Speaker 2>color as me. That's amazing. I mean, it's just really

0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.600
<v Speaker 2>innocent things that plays on the vulnerability and naivety of

0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.880
<v Speaker 2>these young girls. Once he knew that he had their

0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.600
<v Speaker 2>trust and that the messaging was becoming more regular, and

0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>that he had learned a lot about them and their

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.079
<v Speaker 2>school and their friend group, he then shifted them, unbeknown

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:58.040
<v Speaker 2>to their mum, onto other platforms like Discord, like Snapchat,

0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 2>like Telegram, which we know the latter is an encrypted

0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.040
<v Speaker 2>text messaging service. Now, why would you want to move

0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>a child onto Telegram? Two pre teen girls onto such

0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:16.560
<v Speaker 2>a platform. This is when it all started beginning with

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.720
<v Speaker 2>asking questions like hey, do you guys own crop tops?

0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 2>And it became more and more serious in terms of

0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:30.040
<v Speaker 2>what this person wanted while extracting child sex abuse images

0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.480
<v Speaker 2>from the two girls. He reminded them, do not tell

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.520
<v Speaker 2>anyone about this. And by the way, if someone does

0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.840
<v Speaker 2>find out about this, like your mum, I will have

0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>to get you blocked from these apps that I've helped

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.120
<v Speaker 2>get you onto, and you don't want to lose access

0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.160
<v Speaker 2>to that. You know, my own daughters if they're on

0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 2>something and I say no, sorry, you've gone over your

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 2>limit or you're not behaving and I'm banning you for

0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 2>a week from this, it is a huge deal. There

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.599
<v Speaker 2>was a big meltdown. Saying you can't do this on

0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.800
<v Speaker 2>a device is a massive thing. So the girls were

0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.439
<v Speaker 2>under pressure. At the same time, when I talk about

0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 2>the tactics of some of these predators, he was colluding

0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:19.360
<v Speaker 2>with other pedophiles around the world on how to ensure

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.200
<v Speaker 2>that the girls would keep quiet and that he would

0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 2>still be and how best to extract the information in

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.840
<v Speaker 2>a confidential manner from them, and he largely succeeded at

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 2>doing this, even to the extent that he told the girls,

0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.520
<v Speaker 2>if mum comes along and asks about who you're chatting to,

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.000
<v Speaker 2>you show her these messages, ones that were from early

0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 2>on in the piece that were safe and appeared harmless.

0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:46.960
<v Speaker 2>And appeared very friendly and genuine. And of course the

0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 2>mother did look at these and she thought, okay, well

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that all seems legit. I will permit the conversations to continue,

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 2>not knowing how her daughters were being exploited at that point.

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 2>And what did you think when your mum told you,

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.640
<v Speaker 2>guys that your friend was a man?

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 5>I was pretty shocked and mostly pretty disgusted, but most

0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 5>of it was shot a little bit of anger, a

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 5>bit of sadness. I was in cheers, I was angry,

0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:31.880
<v Speaker 5>and I felt like was or surprising.

0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.040
<v Speaker 3>We have ongoing counseling.

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 5>They're still my daughters are having nightmares.

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 2>They don't trust easily anymore.

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 1>And so I guess how do we combat this? Like

0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 1>what are the police wanting to change?

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>I think that a big part of this is having

0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.920
<v Speaker 2>some publicity about it for the first sense, and also

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.680
<v Speaker 2>starting conversations. I mean, if we look at what the

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.440
<v Speaker 2>mother has said to me, you know, she said the

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.440
<v Speaker 2>best thing I think is to have these very open

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 2>conversations early. Make sure your children understand what a healthy

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.280
<v Speaker 2>online relationship looks like. Make sure they understand that if

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 2>anyone suggests to you, would you mind taking a picture

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of yourself without your clothes on, that you can feel

0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.480
<v Speaker 2>safe to talk to another adult myself a teacher, and

0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 2>that that is not right. And the crazy thing about

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 2>it is that these conversations here to be had with

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.120
<v Speaker 2>children at a very early age. But you know, you've

0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.560
<v Speaker 2>got to be, as a mother articulated to me, be

0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.960
<v Speaker 2>careful in how you're conveying this information. You might want

0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>to keep it as simple as saying, well, look, if

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 2>someone is asking you for a picture without your clothes on,

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 2>you have to tell someone about that because that's not

0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.000
<v Speaker 2>right and that's your body and you have to protect

0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 2>yourself and make sure that you feel safe to talk

0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>to other people people. But then we also have you know,

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.720
<v Speaker 2>some of the other movements that are starting up. We

0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.639
<v Speaker 2>know that the before sixteen group has launched wanting to

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>essentially following the footsteps of Australia by banning social media

0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.639
<v Speaker 2>for under sixteen year olds. And look, I support what

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 2>they are trying to do here, and I support it

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 2>as a parent for a few reasons. But one of

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the really hard things is that and just like with

0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Amy and Ivy in their situation, as soon as your

0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.399
<v Speaker 2>kid's friends have got these devices or an iPad or

0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.840
<v Speaker 2>a phone. All of a sudden, there's this great need.

0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.040
<v Speaker 2>I need one, you know, I really need one. And

0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 2>it's almost like if we just could remove that from

0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.520
<v Speaker 2>the equation, or at least remove some of these access

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.280
<v Speaker 2>to platforms from the equation and said well, look sorry,

0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.560
<v Speaker 2>but it's actually against the law or you can't have this,

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's all an even playing field. I think it

0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.800
<v Speaker 2>would make it a lot easier for parents and I

0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't really accept the argument offered at one stage

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.760
<v Speaker 2>by the Minister for Internal Affairs Brook van Velden that oh, well,

0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.600
<v Speaker 2>it's appearance responsibility and so all the best appearance. Absolutely

0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.200
<v Speaker 2>it is, and absolutely you have to have these conversations.

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.160
<v Speaker 2>But where is the responsibility on some of these big

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.919
<v Speaker 2>tech companies that are creating these environments where predators thrive.

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, these offenders are no longer hanging out at

0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:33.200
<v Speaker 2>the playground watching kids through a window. They're no longer

0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.360
<v Speaker 2>in a van with a bag of lollies. If that

0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.679
<v Speaker 2>sort of thing ever occurred, I don't know if that

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.879
<v Speaker 2>was more of a myth, But what I'm saying is

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.920
<v Speaker 2>that it has been made so easy for people who

0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.680
<v Speaker 2>want to prey on our most vulnerable to get access

0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.879
<v Speaker 2>to them, and they can do it all from the

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.080
<v Speaker 2>comfort of their own home anywhere in the world, and

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.240
<v Speaker 2>we are seeing the evidence of this in New Zealand

0:18:58.359 --> 0:18:59.840
<v Speaker 2>on a daily weekly.

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for joining us, really appreciate it.

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 5>Cheers.

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.919
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.120
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 1>at inzidherld dot co dot z. The Front Page is

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 1>produced by Ethan Sills. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to The

0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 1>and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.