1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: A warning that today's episode contains content that listeners might 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: find disturbing. You can find support links in our show 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: notes Kyota. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: the New Zealand Herald. New Zealand police are becoming increasingly 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: concerned about online groups targeting Kiwi children through social media. 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: Apps like Snapchat have become a breeding ground for sex 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: abuse material, while overseas groups are actively participating in sadistic 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: online exploitation. And it's not just happening offshore. With two 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: sisters this week sharing their story of being targeted by 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: a Wellington man masquerading as an eleven year old girl 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: in Zied. Herald investigative reporter Michael Mora has been looking 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: into this case for months and joins us today on 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: the front Page to explore what's happening online. So, Michael, 15 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: how did you come to investigate this particular field. 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: Well, I've got two daughters, and I guess I was 17 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: particularly concerned by just how much technology phones. Access to 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: the Internet was such a driver for my girls. They 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: were so interested in it. When I grew up, we 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: would watch some cartoons in the afternoon after school, but 21 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: they only go for about an hour and then it 22 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: would go into the news hour and more adult programming, 23 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 2: and you had that small window where you might watch 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: a cartoon. But at the moment, technology is just everywhere, 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: and in a way, children and young people are growing 26 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: up with this. They're growing up seeing their parents attached 27 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: to these phones, swiping these phones, and it is consistently 28 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: kind of in their face. And I guess why I 29 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: started to look into this field was because of the 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: rise and concerns around the world and also here in 31 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: New Zealand about the damage that early access can cause, 32 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: but also the way in which social media companies have expanded, 33 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: and that's been massive in the past ten years. There 34 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: are so many different platforms, all eager to get eyes 35 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: and ears onto them, and this in turn presents a 36 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: problem because a lot of these spaces are designed by 37 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: their very nature to be sites that are encrypted or protected, 38 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: and they anonymize use and they allow engagement with other 39 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: people around the world, which on the face of it 40 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: sounds fine. But the problem is is that predators and 41 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: pedophiles know that this is a very easy way to 42 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: target children. And I think that's horrific and there are 43 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: many examples of police investigations into this sort of thing. 44 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you spoke with the police back in March 45 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: and one of your first stories about this what sort 46 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: of things are they seeing on a daily basis. 47 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: Well, we know, for example that from the facts that 48 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: the statistics show that that referrals from these big tech 49 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 2: companies are going up hugely. So if you look at Snapchat, 50 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: in the space of a year, referrals to New Zealand 51 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: Police have more than doubled, So they're about one thousand, 52 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: five hundred and forty nine referrals over a twelve month period. 53 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: And when you look back on the year prior, it 54 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: was about six hundred and seventeen complaints that were referred 55 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: to New Zealand Police. Now, these referrals come from a 56 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: place called neck MECH or the National Center for Exploited 57 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: and Missing Children in the US, so they get information 58 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: on problematic communications or images and then they go right, 59 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: this is happening in New Zealand. And actually this user 60 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: who is obtaining these images or video, objection and or 61 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: material is based in New Zealand, so those referrals are 62 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: going there. Now we're also seeing increases on other social 63 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: media platforms like TikTok roadblocks. Of course, the social media 64 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: companies would say, oh, well, this is happening because we 65 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: have really good systems in place now where we are 66 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: reporting more. We have better ways for people to make 67 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: complaints or make referrals within the app. And that may 68 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: well be true. But the other point I would make 69 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: that would be true is that these referrals from the 70 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: US to New Zealand police would only be a tiny 71 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: fraction of the actual harm that is going on. 72 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: We don't want to alarm parents out there. We just 73 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: want them to be aware of some of the risks 74 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 3: online which is similar to sextortion and other child sexual 75 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: abuse material, and just making sure they put the right 76 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 3: privacy settings and have those conversations in place to keep 77 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: the young people safe. 78 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 4: Some of the things that I'm aware of are looking 79 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: for changes in behavior of their children. They might be 80 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 4: visible things that you know that they are concerned about, 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 4: the sort of reclusion, so starting to shut themselves away, 82 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 4: being secretive about the online activity. If any parents have 83 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 4: concerns about that happening with their children, again, not encourage 84 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: them to report that as soon as possible. 85 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: I think it might be worth discussing, like the term 86 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: sort of online child exploitation. Obviously, you know you've spoken 87 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: to a lot of people affected by this and that 88 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: are really sort of close to it, but it does 89 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: kind of sound like one of those things that you 90 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: just hear and might be being over reported for fear 91 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: mong green, Like, how much of an issue is this 92 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: actually do you think? 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's a huge issue, and I think 94 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: the scale of the issue is actually probably underreported. And 95 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: the reason I say that is because I have interviewed 96 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: police from the Online Child Exploitation of New Zealand team. 97 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: I have interviewed the Department of Internal Affairs both from 98 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 2: their child Exploitation team and also from their Extremist Online team. 99 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: The concerns are real, and the referrals and the number 100 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: of investigations that they are involved in is increasing massively 101 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,559 Speaker 2: year on year, and there's also various developments in terms 102 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: of how some of these predators are operating. Our listeners 103 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: may sort of think about sextortion, which is one of 104 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: the classic ones. You extract an objectionable picture from a 105 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: young per and then say, look, if you don't give 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: me this amount of money, I will do xyz. There 107 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: are now a new breed of sadistic, right wing young 108 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: people online who are not actually interested in obtaining money, 109 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: but they are trying to get some of the most frightening, cruel, 110 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: degrading and violent material from young people for the sole 111 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: purpose of building online clout and reputation amongst other like 112 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: minded people. And the purpose of doing this is that 113 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: they want to create ultimately social disorder, and so they 114 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: do this by targeting the younger generation. One of the 115 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: big problems I think is that as parents, you go 116 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: about the day and think, gosh, well that's a horrific story, 117 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: but it won't happen to my kid because we're keeping 118 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: an eye on things. But that's naive. I think there 119 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: are people out there waiting for opportunities to exploit young people, 120 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: waiting for opportunities who strike up some form of fake relationship. 121 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: And you've got to remember the age of some of 122 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: the kids who end up with devices. I mean, they're 123 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: not adults. They want to make friends, they want to 124 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: join people on games, and that's just human nature. 125 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 126 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: I think that's a nice segue into talking about the 127 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: story that you published this week, because you mentioned there 128 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: that like oh, I do everything right. This couldn't possibly 129 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: happen in my household. But yeah, tell us a little 130 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: bit about you spoke to a woman calling Victoria and 131 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: her two kids, Amy and Ivy, and yeah, this is 132 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: someone who sort of seemingly did everything right. 133 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I just first want to acknowledge Victoria, the mother 134 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: who I interviewed, and her daughter's Amy and Ivy, for 135 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: their extraordinary bravery and stepping up and discussing this. The 136 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: sole purpose of them wanting to talk to me was 137 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 2: to raise awareness about this issue and to tell other 138 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 2: parents and New Zealanders in general that this issue is 139 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: very real. And of course we have heard from police, 140 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: we have heard from the Department of Internal Affairs, and 141 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: we've got great organizations like before sixteen in that movement 142 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: starting up, which seems to have the support of the 143 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: Prime Minister. But what's unique about this story is that 144 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 2: we hear the true story from the mother and the victims. 145 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: The mother, in my view, Victoria did take precautions, and 146 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: this is what's really interesting. The first time that her 147 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: two daughters had some form of interaction or learnings about 148 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: a person who ended up being a pedophile was in 149 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: the primary school. Library, the most innocent of childhood spaces. 150 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: And I are they even had phones themselves, right. 151 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, they did not have phones. And this is the 152 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: this is the thing. They had a friend who had 153 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: a phone and these fun videos on zoomrag showing you know, 154 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: the dancing back and forth, and you know, there's a 155 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: big trend and kids love it. And of course they 156 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: never they didn't have phones at this point. But for 157 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: months in the school library and around the school they 158 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: were looking over the shoulder of their friend who had 159 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: this phone and oh wow, look at this. These videos 160 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: are so fun. It was at that time that the 161 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: friend said to them, oh, well look at this. I've 162 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,119 Speaker 2: got a friend. She's an eleven year old from Australia 163 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: and she's liking my videos and she's commenting on my videos. 164 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: Of course, the two girls I interviewed thought, this is 165 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: so cool. An eleven year old from Australia. That's fantastic. 166 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: And look at this engagement and wow, that's amazing. The 167 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: mother in this case eventually did get her girl's phones 168 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: for safety reasons, like many parents are doing now if 169 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: their kids are walking to and from school, for safety reasons, 170 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: so they can be contacted. All the time, and this 171 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: is what was happening with her girls. She did not 172 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: allow social media on these phones. But the girls, who 173 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: had witnessed their peers at school seeing Zoomerang in this account, 174 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: really wanted this this app. So you face that sort 175 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: of dilemma as a parent, and you know, Victoria in 176 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: this case, she consulted other mothers at the school. She 177 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: asked around what zoom rang like, Are there any concerns 178 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: you know? Everyone said, look, we don't have any concerns 179 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: about this, and so she allowed this app, which she 180 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: thought was innocuous and harmless, to be downloaded. And this 181 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: of course was the time where the girls thought, well, 182 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: we must add the fun girl from Australia, this eleven 183 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: year old, because she seems cool and she's been liking 184 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: our other friends videos, so we want to make friends too. 185 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: And then so how did this take a turn the story? 186 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it took a real turn. And I think 187 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: it's again important to emphasize before people jump on the 188 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: bandwagon and go, oh, well, you shouldn't have given your 189 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 2: kids phones and you shouldn't give them social media. This 190 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: was in the view of the mother, it was a 191 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: targeted sophisticated and tactical approach by someone who pretended to 192 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: be an eleven year old girl who we work out 193 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: was never an eleven year old girl, and what she 194 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: asked the girls to do, and this took weeks and 195 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: weeks of trust building right sending the right emojis, building 196 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: up self esteem, talking with the girls about wow, look 197 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: we've got so much in common. You like the same 198 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: color as me. That's amazing. I mean, it's just really 199 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: innocent things that plays on the vulnerability and naivety of 200 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: these young girls. Once he knew that he had their 201 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: trust and that the messaging was becoming more regular, and 202 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: that he had learned a lot about them and their 203 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 2: school and their friend group, he then shifted them, unbeknown 204 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: to their mum, onto other platforms like Discord, like Snapchat, 205 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: like Telegram, which we know the latter is an encrypted 206 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: text messaging service. Now, why would you want to move 207 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: a child onto Telegram? Two pre teen girls onto such 208 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: a platform. This is when it all started beginning with 209 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: asking questions like hey, do you guys own crop tops? 210 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: And it became more and more serious in terms of 211 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: what this person wanted while extracting child sex abuse images 212 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: from the two girls. He reminded them, do not tell 213 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: anyone about this. And by the way, if someone does 214 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: find out about this, like your mum, I will have 215 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: to get you blocked from these apps that I've helped 216 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: get you onto, and you don't want to lose access 217 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: to that. You know, my own daughters if they're on 218 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: something and I say no, sorry, you've gone over your 219 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: limit or you're not behaving and I'm banning you for 220 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: a week from this, it is a huge deal. There 221 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 2: was a big meltdown. Saying you can't do this on 222 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: a device is a massive thing. So the girls were 223 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 2: under pressure. At the same time, when I talk about 224 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: the tactics of some of these predators, he was colluding 225 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: with other pedophiles around the world on how to ensure 226 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: that the girls would keep quiet and that he would 227 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: still be and how best to extract the information in 228 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: a confidential manner from them, and he largely succeeded at 229 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: doing this, even to the extent that he told the girls, 230 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: if mum comes along and asks about who you're chatting to, 231 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: you show her these messages, ones that were from early 232 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: on in the piece that were safe and appeared harmless. 233 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: And appeared very friendly and genuine. And of course the 234 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: mother did look at these and she thought, okay, well 235 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: that all seems legit. I will permit the conversations to continue, 236 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: not knowing how her daughters were being exploited at that point. 237 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: And what did you think when your mum told you, 238 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: guys that your friend was a man? 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 5: I was pretty shocked and mostly pretty disgusted, but most 240 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 5: of it was shot a little bit of anger, a 241 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 5: bit of sadness. I was in cheers, I was angry, 242 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 5: and I felt like was or surprising. 243 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: We have ongoing counseling. 244 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 5: They're still my daughters are having nightmares. 245 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: They don't trust easily anymore. 246 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: And so I guess how do we combat this? Like 247 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: what are the police wanting to change? 248 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: I think that a big part of this is having 249 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: some publicity about it for the first sense, and also 250 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: starting conversations. I mean, if we look at what the 251 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: mother has said to me, you know, she said the 252 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: best thing I think is to have these very open 253 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: conversations early. Make sure your children understand what a healthy 254 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: online relationship looks like. Make sure they understand that if 255 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: anyone suggests to you, would you mind taking a picture 256 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: of yourself without your clothes on, that you can feel 257 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: safe to talk to another adult myself a teacher, and 258 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: that that is not right. And the crazy thing about 259 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: it is that these conversations here to be had with 260 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: children at a very early age. But you know, you've 261 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: got to be, as a mother articulated to me, be 262 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: careful in how you're conveying this information. You might want 263 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: to keep it as simple as saying, well, look, if 264 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: someone is asking you for a picture without your clothes on, 265 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: you have to tell someone about that because that's not 266 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: right and that's your body and you have to protect 267 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: yourself and make sure that you feel safe to talk 268 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: to other people people. But then we also have you know, 269 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: some of the other movements that are starting up. We 270 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: know that the before sixteen group has launched wanting to 271 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: essentially following the footsteps of Australia by banning social media 272 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: for under sixteen year olds. And look, I support what 273 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 2: they are trying to do here, and I support it 274 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: as a parent for a few reasons. But one of 275 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: the really hard things is that and just like with 276 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: Amy and Ivy in their situation, as soon as your 277 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: kid's friends have got these devices or an iPad or 278 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: a phone. All of a sudden, there's this great need. 279 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: I need one, you know, I really need one. And 280 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: it's almost like if we just could remove that from 281 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: the equation, or at least remove some of these access 282 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: to platforms from the equation and said well, look sorry, 283 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: but it's actually against the law or you can't have this, 284 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: and it's all an even playing field. I think it 285 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: would make it a lot easier for parents and I 286 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 2: I don't really accept the argument offered at one stage 287 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: by the Minister for Internal Affairs Brook van Velden that oh, well, 288 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: it's appearance responsibility and so all the best appearance. Absolutely 289 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: it is, and absolutely you have to have these conversations. 290 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: But where is the responsibility on some of these big 291 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 2: tech companies that are creating these environments where predators thrive. 292 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 2: I mean, these offenders are no longer hanging out at 293 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: the playground watching kids through a window. They're no longer 294 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 2: in a van with a bag of lollies. If that 295 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: sort of thing ever occurred, I don't know if that 296 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 2: was more of a myth, But what I'm saying is 297 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: that it has been made so easy for people who 298 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: want to prey on our most vulnerable to get access 299 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: to them, and they can do it all from the 300 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: comfort of their own home anywhere in the world, and 301 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: we are seeing the evidence of this in New Zealand 302 00:18:58,359 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: on a daily weekly. 303 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for joining us, really appreciate it. 304 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 5: Cheers. 305 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 306 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 307 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: at inzidherld dot co dot z. The Front Page is 308 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to The 309 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 310 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.