WEBVTT - Surging violence, record numbers: What’s driving the prison system 'crisis' 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:05.960 Gilda. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.280 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:16.560 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The Corrections 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:22.520 Association says New Zealand's prisons are in crisis. Last year 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:28.080 saw record breaking numbers of assaults on staff, almost double 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.160 what they were just seven years ago. There were also 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.239 more than fifteen hundred the prisoner on prisoner attacks, the 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:40.400 highest annual figure on record. All of this comes with overcrowding, 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:45.280 tight budgets and a growing gang and meth problem. Today 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.400 on the Front Page ends at Herald's senior reporter, Derek 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:55.120 Chang is with us to dive into the numbers. So, Derek, 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.760 when you began looking into corrections latest prison assault data, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.080 what stood out to you? 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:06.479 Well, the figures are the highest on record, and obviously 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:12.040 the prison population fluctuates and the number of prison officers fluctuates. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.839 At the moment, the prison population is an all time high. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.840 It's just under teny nine hundred and the last time 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.720 it was more or less the same population number was 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.960 back in March twenty eighteen. So it's interesting to compare 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.520 the numbers. So, I mean, Corrections keeps the starter, it's 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.800 prisoner on prisoner assaults and prisoner on staff assaults. So 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.440 in the last year, which is twenty four to twenty five, 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.840 there were almost sixteen hundred prisoner prisoner assaults and there 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:49.040 were almost eleven hundred prisoner staff assaults. And if you 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.120 compare that to the twenty seven eighteen year, which was 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.520 when the prison population was almost just as high, there 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:00.680 were almost twice as many prisoner staff assaults or in 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.320 the latest year than then. And there's I think it's 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.400 twenty eight percent increase in the number of prison of 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:09.239 prisoner assaults. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.960 Is this surge mainly about more violence or more reporting 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.400 of small incidents? Do you think? 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.080 Well, if you break the numbers down, the corrections data 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:27.280 is based on serious assault, non serious assault, and no 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.440 injury assault. So serious assault essentially is something that requires 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.560 a visit to the hospital or is lead to a 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:38.560 police charge, so the bar is reasonably high. And then 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.640 you have a non serious assault, which is an injury 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.520 which which hasn't led to a hospital visit or a 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.359 police charge. And then you have a no injury assault 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.480 like you know, a shove or I throw something at 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.520 you or something like that, something small that doesn't result 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.400 in an injury. So the numbers are actually quite stable with 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:03.080 serious assaults, and in fact they went down slightly in 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.240 the last year compared to the previous year. The majority 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.600 of the increase is definitely from non serious and no 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.080 injury assaults, and Correction is also provided like a breakdown 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.200 per prison, so it's interesting to look at each prison, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.520 although I mean, there are so many factors involved in 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.520 what happens and how an assault comes to be and 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.280 whether it's recorded in all those things. Corrections has also 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.800 said that there's definitely been a bigger focus on reporting 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:31.640 and that may explain some of the increase in the numbers. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:37.120 You mentioned. The rising prison population is becoming more complex 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.920 with higher proportions of remand prisoners, you've got gang affiliated 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:45.440 inmates and meth uses as well. How central is this 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.200 complexity this cocktail to the rise of assaults. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:54.120 Well, Corrections definitely thinks that the complexity of the prison 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:59.920 population has led to increasing chances of violence. People who 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.880 who have a history of heavy matthews who then go 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.720 to prison are more likely to be involved in violence. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.800 There's I think Corrections themselves refer to it as kind 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.839 of like pack beatings that happen in prison and they 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:17.520 tend to be gang related, So if there are more 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.800 gang members in prisons, then there tend to be those 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.280 kinds of assaults. Just looking at the data as well, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:27.719 there's more Category three sentences coming through the courts, and 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.679 they are the more serious offenses, punishable by at least 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.760 two years in prison. There is definitely a truth about 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.400 the complexity of the average prisoner, and I guess that 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:44.919 would mean that your average prisoner is more likely to 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:46.760 end up in these assault figures. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.599 It doesn't really surprise us, though, does it, that prisoner 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.520 numbers have gone up because national's hole tough on crime. 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.120 Stants actually promised more people in prisons. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.560 That's right, And there's a number of policies there. There's 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.200 the Center Single Forms, there's the return of three strikes, 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.520 there's the ending of the Section twenty seven reports for 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:14.000 state funding. All of these are projected to mean a 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.600 prison population that's three thousand higher in ten years time 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.359 than without those policies. Money for corrections is based on 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:27.120 these forecasts, right, So in this year's budget the government 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.960 set aside a certain amount of money for corrections to 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:36.120 manage and it's based on a forecast. The forecast was 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:43.880 for I think eight hundred and sixty prisoners by June 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:50.400 next year. The forecast back then, I mean it's basically 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.560 way out, because we're currently at one hundred and sixty 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.720 nine months ahead of schedule, and that basically means that 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.440 as the prison population grows, which it's to, then the 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.000 Corrections budget per prisoner is shrinking unless they ask for 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.360 more money, which they haven't, so Corrections is just managing 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.719 with the baseline and it's just increasingly harder as the 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.800 prison population grows, the complexity of the prisoners coming in grows. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:19.760 They were basically in a bit of a staff in 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.880 crisis a few years ago because the prison population was 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.560 shooting up since the start of twenty twenty two, and 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.680 then they're just playing catch up with frontline staff. That 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.680 made a big recruitment drive last year and they've halved 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.480 the attrition rate, which is staff turnover rate, so they're 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.039 actually at a better position than they have been, but 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.320 there are still two hundred and seventy seven officers Corrections 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.440 offices short of where they want to be. And Corrections 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:52.080 describes this, and there's a beautiful managerial phrase, suboptimal custodial 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.640 frontline resilience which basically means they're not operating with the 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:00.000 ideal level of staff and that really puts the staff 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.039 under pressure. I should also add that that this is 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.600 nothing new for corrections, like the forecast that was based 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.840 for the prisoner forecast that was used on the basis 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.280 for funding for budget twenty twenty four was also way 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.360 below the numbers that it erientually came out. So they've 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.320 been they've been doing this for a while. And how 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.920 long they can do it for as anyone's guess, but 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.800 it's certainly it's certainly suboptimal in corrections own turn. 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.760 Well, they're constantly playing catch up pay and I'm never 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.360 calling anything bad again. I'm going to be calling it 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:35.920 suboptimal from now on. 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.720 The best we've ever been in the last eight years 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.520 in terms of staff. We're in the best position we 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:55.000 have been eight years. So it's not suboptimal at all. 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.880 It's not the Christian sign that the suboptimal, the sign 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.360 that Christians are the best place of being. Like I said, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.880 eight years there's an incoming government. They started a new 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.480 recruiting campaign that's been extremely successful. We've got a massive 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.480 poplin of people wanting to join and become cruse stouts 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.240 as we've got another civity, officers been trying to really 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:15.760 deploy it. The violence. 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.960 You also bring up double bunking, which has become an 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.560 issue and it's even been linked to a prisoner killing 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.120 his cell mate. Do I experts see double bunking as 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:32.760 an unavoidable necessity or a policy failure that's fueling that violence. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.000 Well, that probably depends on who you ask. I remember 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.280 double bunking was brought in I think in twenty ten 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.480 or twenty eleven under the previous National government. I was 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.880 actually part of a cohort of journalists that were taken 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:52.080 to Ramataka Prison to sample the double bunking and you know, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.760 the sales were barely roomy. They were really comfortable. Also, 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.360 you know, wasn't sharing it with among them by members, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:03.760 so it wasn't particularly dangerous. But double bunking has been 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.800 quite controversial. It's been increasingly used. I should say that 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.400 there's no current sort of capacity crisis because there's a 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.200 there was a recent addition to my carrier. So now 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:18.320 the current capacity is over twelve thousand, but forty five 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.520 percent of the prison population is now double bunked, so 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:26.840 that's basically five thousand prisoners. It's a lot, right, and 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.640 if we didn't have dumble bugging, then we wouldn't have capacity. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.280 So it is a necessity. Prisoners are screen before they 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.040 put in a double bunk, but obviously that's not fol 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.520 proof and as the correction of the Association President Vlouidipassy 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.200 was saying earlier this week, that creates violence, that creates tensions. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:51.720 We've got some optimal suboptimal stapping. So again not not great. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.040 Assaults are going up and you know there's no sort 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.680 of there's no sort of reprieve coming. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:05.120 You know, Mitchell said about frontline staffing levels. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.280 He says things are going great, and obviously it's a 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.000 political perspective, but it's not entirely untrue because there was 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.280 much more of a staffing crisis a few years ago 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.000 and they are in a much better position, but obviously 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.440 they would like to have more, hundreds more in fact, 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:30.199 and you know, kind of both perspectives are correct. Things 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.520 are better than they used to be, but they're still 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.360 at such a level where it creates more risk for 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.520 the staff, and the staff, you know, you got to 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.959 feel for them because they can only have the numbers 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:50.360 that corrections provides, which is based on government budgets, but 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.360 they are on the front line. They deal with all 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.200 of the complexities of that happen behind bars. And they're 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.960 saying that there are so few staff now that there's 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.080 a whole bunch of vacant shifts that aren't being filled. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.640 Creation says that, you know that's not because there's not 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.920 enough staff. It's because often for a sick leave or 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:17.000 some unforseeable leave, and then the decision is made not 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:18.679 to bring more people in because it can be the 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.840 prison can be safely managed as it is. But the 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.839 Union says, you know, it puts us more in danger. 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.000 It puts there more in danger. It creates more tension 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.680 in the behind bars, and you know those and the 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:33.880 risks are heightened. 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.520 I mean, the Union says and has told you that 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.640 it's already a crisis, but the minister says it isn't. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:43.720 Who do you reckon is closer to the truth? 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.679 Well, I mean they have different perspectives, right, I mean 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:53.839 the Corrections Association they represent the front line staff. They 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.760 don't want to see their front line staff and danger. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.720 Obviously there's going to be some danger because it's just 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.840 then nature of the job. They want to avoid that 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:05.680 as much as possible. Part of that is having proper levels. 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.720 Part is that that is minimizing the baking shifts. And 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.199 the minister he backs the staff and he backs corrections, 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:19.679 but he's also kind of hamstrung because you know it's 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.920 the finance minister who decides how much money they get. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.400 Corrections just deals with the back end of the justice pipeline. 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.960 You know how many people go there isn't up to corrections. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.760 They just have to manage it. It's all about crime 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.360 and police and charges and court timeliness, and that just 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.880 piles it all up. At the corrections end the year ago, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.360 you've only got this much money, You've only got this 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.160 much staff. Good luck to you. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.840 Well, has Corrections given any indication of any new funding 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.040 requests for next year. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.360 Well, in Budget twenty twenty five they asked for attack contingency, 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:58.520 which is basically, we want this money which the government 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.360 gave them to manage our folks, which as I said earlier, 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.720 has been met nine months a here to forecast and 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.040 attag contingency is basically, if you can give us this 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.560 extra money, you can put it on the shelf. It's 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.120 just for us in case there are more prisoners than 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.679 the forecast number, and that would be great because then 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.400 we can just pull it off the shelf if those 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.920 numbers are than forecast, which they now are. Nikolallas said no, 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.520 based on Treasury advice. They said, well, in fact, I 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.839 think it's better just to make you ask for out 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.880 of cycle funding they call it. So Corrections has not 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.280 usd for that money. Mark Mitchell told me last week that, 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.880 you know, he's ready to support them if they need 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.920 that money. But there's such a fiscal crunch on the government. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.880 I mean, they've got so little available money and they're 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.360 squeezing every department for every last cent. You know, they're 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.199 taking hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign tourists for example, 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.360 which is meant to go to the tourism and conservation 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.319 and then just kind of squirreling it down over here 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.880 for us, thank you very much. So it costs one 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.280 point seven billion dollars a year for Corrections to manage 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.160 the prison population. So there's all this pressure on them 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.640 to just do everything with the baseline, which is what 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.719 they're doing so far. I just hope that you know, 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.320 would say to really need more money because it's because 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.640 safety is at risk. They'll ask for it and the 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:20.680 government will give it to them. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:26.760 Thanks for joining us, Derek, You're welcome. That's it for 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.920 this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.480 about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.200 co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.880 Ye and Richard Martin, who was also our editor. I'm 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:46.200 Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.440 wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.560 for another look behind the headlines.