1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Gilda. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The Corrections 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: Association says New Zealand's prisons are in crisis. Last year 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: saw record breaking numbers of assaults on staff, almost double 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 2: what they were just seven years ago. There were also 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: more than fifteen hundred the prisoner on prisoner attacks, the 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: highest annual figure on record. All of this comes with overcrowding, 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: tight budgets and a growing gang and meth problem. Today 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: on the Front Page ends at Herald's senior reporter, Derek 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: Chang is with us to dive into the numbers. So, Derek, 12 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: when you began looking into corrections latest prison assault data, 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: what stood out to you? 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: Well, the figures are the highest on record, and obviously 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: the prison population fluctuates and the number of prison officers fluctuates. 16 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: At the moment, the prison population is an all time high. 17 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: It's just under teny nine hundred and the last time 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: it was more or less the same population number was 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: back in March twenty eighteen. So it's interesting to compare 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: the numbers. So, I mean, Corrections keeps the starter, it's 21 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: prisoner on prisoner assaults and prisoner on staff assaults. So 22 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: in the last year, which is twenty four to twenty five, 23 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: there were almost sixteen hundred prisoner prisoner assaults and there 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: were almost eleven hundred prisoner staff assaults. And if you 25 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: compare that to the twenty seven eighteen year, which was 26 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: when the prison population was almost just as high, there 27 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: were almost twice as many prisoner staff assaults or in 28 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: the latest year than then. And there's I think it's 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: twenty eight percent increase in the number of prison of 30 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: prisoner assaults. 31 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: Is this surge mainly about more violence or more reporting 32 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: of small incidents? Do you think? 33 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: Well, if you break the numbers down, the corrections data 34 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: is based on serious assault, non serious assault, and no 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: injury assault. So serious assault essentially is something that requires 36 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: a visit to the hospital or is lead to a 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: police charge, so the bar is reasonably high. And then 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: you have a non serious assault, which is an injury 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: which which hasn't led to a hospital visit or a 40 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: police charge. And then you have a no injury assault 41 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: like you know, a shove or I throw something at 42 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: you or something like that, something small that doesn't result 43 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: in an injury. So the numbers are actually quite stable with 44 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: serious assaults, and in fact they went down slightly in 45 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: the last year compared to the previous year. The majority 46 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: of the increase is definitely from non serious and no 47 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: injury assaults, and Correction is also provided like a breakdown 48 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: per prison, so it's interesting to look at each prison, 49 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: although I mean, there are so many factors involved in 50 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: what happens and how an assault comes to be and 51 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: whether it's recorded in all those things. Corrections has also 52 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: said that there's definitely been a bigger focus on reporting 53 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: and that may explain some of the increase in the numbers. 54 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned. The rising prison population is becoming more complex 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: with higher proportions of remand prisoners, you've got gang affiliated 56 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: inmates and meth uses as well. How central is this 57 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: complexity this cocktail to the rise of assaults. 58 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: Well, Corrections definitely thinks that the complexity of the prison 59 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: population has led to increasing chances of violence. People who 60 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: who have a history of heavy matthews who then go 61 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: to prison are more likely to be involved in violence. 62 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: There's I think Corrections themselves refer to it as kind 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 1: of like pack beatings that happen in prison and they 64 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: tend to be gang related, So if there are more 65 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: gang members in prisons, then there tend to be those 66 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: kinds of assaults. Just looking at the data as well, 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: there's more Category three sentences coming through the courts, and 68 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: they are the more serious offenses, punishable by at least 69 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: two years in prison. There is definitely a truth about 70 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: the complexity of the average prisoner, and I guess that 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: would mean that your average prisoner is more likely to 72 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: end up in these assault figures. 73 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: It doesn't really surprise us, though, does it, that prisoner 74 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: numbers have gone up because national's hole tough on crime. 75 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: Stants actually promised more people in prisons. 76 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: That's right, And there's a number of policies there. There's 77 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: the Center Single Forms, there's the return of three strikes, 78 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: there's the ending of the Section twenty seven reports for 79 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: state funding. All of these are projected to mean a 80 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: prison population that's three thousand higher in ten years time 81 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: than without those policies. Money for corrections is based on 82 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: these forecasts, right, So in this year's budget the government 83 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: set aside a certain amount of money for corrections to 84 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: manage and it's based on a forecast. The forecast was 85 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: for I think eight hundred and sixty prisoners by June 86 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: next year. The forecast back then, I mean it's basically 87 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: way out, because we're currently at one hundred and sixty 88 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: nine months ahead of schedule, and that basically means that 89 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: as the prison population grows, which it's to, then the 90 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: Corrections budget per prisoner is shrinking unless they ask for 91 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: more money, which they haven't, so Corrections is just managing 92 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: with the baseline and it's just increasingly harder as the 93 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: prison population grows, the complexity of the prisoners coming in grows. 94 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: They were basically in a bit of a staff in 95 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: crisis a few years ago because the prison population was 96 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: shooting up since the start of twenty twenty two, and 97 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: then they're just playing catch up with frontline staff. That 98 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: made a big recruitment drive last year and they've halved 99 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: the attrition rate, which is staff turnover rate, so they're 100 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: actually at a better position than they have been, but 101 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: there are still two hundred and seventy seven officers Corrections 102 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: offices short of where they want to be. And Corrections 103 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: describes this, and there's a beautiful managerial phrase, suboptimal custodial 104 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: frontline resilience which basically means they're not operating with the 105 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: ideal level of staff and that really puts the staff 106 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: under pressure. I should also add that that this is 107 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: nothing new for corrections, like the forecast that was based 108 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: for the prisoner forecast that was used on the basis 109 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: for funding for budget twenty twenty four was also way 110 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: below the numbers that it erientually came out. So they've 111 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: been they've been doing this for a while. And how 112 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: long they can do it for as anyone's guess, but 113 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: it's certainly it's certainly suboptimal in corrections own turn. 114 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: Well, they're constantly playing catch up pay and I'm never 115 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: calling anything bad again. I'm going to be calling it 116 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: suboptimal from now on. 117 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 3: The best we've ever been in the last eight years 118 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: in terms of staff. We're in the best position we 119 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: have been eight years. So it's not suboptimal at all. 120 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: It's not the Christian sign that the suboptimal, the sign 121 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: that Christians are the best place of being. Like I said, 122 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: eight years there's an incoming government. They started a new 123 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 3: recruiting campaign that's been extremely successful. We've got a massive 124 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 3: poplin of people wanting to join and become cruse stouts 125 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: as we've got another civity, officers been trying to really 126 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: deploy it. The violence. 127 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: You also bring up double bunking, which has become an 128 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: issue and it's even been linked to a prisoner killing 129 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: his cell mate. Do I experts see double bunking as 130 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: an unavoidable necessity or a policy failure that's fueling that violence. 131 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: Well, that probably depends on who you ask. I remember 132 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: double bunking was brought in I think in twenty ten 133 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: or twenty eleven under the previous National government. I was 134 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: actually part of a cohort of journalists that were taken 135 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: to Ramataka Prison to sample the double bunking and you know, 136 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the sales were barely roomy. They were really comfortable. Also, 137 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, wasn't sharing it with among them by members, 138 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: so it wasn't particularly dangerous. But double bunking has been 139 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: quite controversial. It's been increasingly used. I should say that 140 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: there's no current sort of capacity crisis because there's a 141 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: there was a recent addition to my carrier. So now 142 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: the current capacity is over twelve thousand, but forty five 143 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: percent of the prison population is now double bunked, so 144 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: that's basically five thousand prisoners. It's a lot, right, and 145 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: if we didn't have dumble bugging, then we wouldn't have capacity. 146 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: So it is a necessity. Prisoners are screen before they 147 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: put in a double bunk, but obviously that's not fol 148 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: proof and as the correction of the Association President Vlouidipassy 149 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: was saying earlier this week, that creates violence, that creates tensions. 150 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: We've got some optimal suboptimal stapping. So again not not great. 151 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: Assaults are going up and you know there's no sort 152 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: of there's no sort of reprieve coming. 153 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: You know, Mitchell said about frontline staffing levels. 154 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: He says things are going great, and obviously it's a 155 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: political perspective, but it's not entirely untrue because there was 156 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: much more of a staffing crisis a few years ago 157 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: and they are in a much better position, but obviously 158 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: they would like to have more, hundreds more in fact, 159 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: and you know, kind of both perspectives are correct. Things 160 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: are better than they used to be, but they're still 161 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: at such a level where it creates more risk for 162 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: the staff, and the staff, you know, you got to 163 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: feel for them because they can only have the numbers 164 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: that corrections provides, which is based on government budgets, but 165 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: they are on the front line. They deal with all 166 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: of the complexities of that happen behind bars. And they're 167 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: saying that there are so few staff now that there's 168 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of vacant shifts that aren't being filled. 169 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: Creation says that, you know that's not because there's not 170 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: enough staff. It's because often for a sick leave or 171 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: some unforseeable leave, and then the decision is made not 172 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: to bring more people in because it can be the 173 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: prison can be safely managed as it is. But the 174 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: Union says, you know, it puts us more in danger. 175 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: It puts there more in danger. It creates more tension 176 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: in the behind bars, and you know those and the 177 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: risks are heightened. 178 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: I mean, the Union says and has told you that 179 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: it's already a crisis, but the minister says it isn't. 180 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: Who do you reckon is closer to the truth? 181 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: Well, I mean they have different perspectives, right, I mean 182 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: the Corrections Association they represent the front line staff. They 183 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: don't want to see their front line staff and danger. 184 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: Obviously there's going to be some danger because it's just 185 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: then nature of the job. They want to avoid that 186 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: as much as possible. Part of that is having proper levels. 187 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: Part is that that is minimizing the baking shifts. And 188 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: the minister he backs the staff and he backs corrections, 189 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: but he's also kind of hamstrung because you know it's 190 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: the finance minister who decides how much money they get. 191 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: Corrections just deals with the back end of the justice pipeline. 192 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: You know how many people go there isn't up to corrections. 193 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: They just have to manage it. It's all about crime 194 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: and police and charges and court timeliness, and that just 195 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: piles it all up. At the corrections end the year ago, 196 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: you've only got this much money, You've only got this 197 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: much staff. Good luck to you. 198 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: Well, has Corrections given any indication of any new funding 199 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: requests for next year. 200 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: Well, in Budget twenty twenty five they asked for attack contingency, 201 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: which is basically, we want this money which the government 202 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: gave them to manage our folks, which as I said earlier, 203 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: has been met nine months a here to forecast and 204 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: attag contingency is basically, if you can give us this 205 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: extra money, you can put it on the shelf. It's 206 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: just for us in case there are more prisoners than 207 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: the forecast number, and that would be great because then 208 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: we can just pull it off the shelf if those 209 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: numbers are than forecast, which they now are. Nikolallas said no, 210 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: based on Treasury advice. They said, well, in fact, I 211 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: think it's better just to make you ask for out 212 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: of cycle funding they call it. So Corrections has not 213 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: usd for that money. Mark Mitchell told me last week that, 214 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, he's ready to support them if they need 215 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: that money. But there's such a fiscal crunch on the government. 216 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they've got so little available money and they're 217 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: squeezing every department for every last cent. You know, they're 218 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: taking hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign tourists for example, 219 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: which is meant to go to the tourism and conservation 220 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: and then just kind of squirreling it down over here 221 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: for us, thank you very much. So it costs one 222 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: point seven billion dollars a year for Corrections to manage 223 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: the prison population. So there's all this pressure on them 224 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: to just do everything with the baseline, which is what 225 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: they're doing so far. I just hope that you know, 226 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: would say to really need more money because it's because 227 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: safety is at risk. They'll ask for it and the 228 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: government will give it to them. 229 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Derek, You're welcome. That's it for 230 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 231 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot 232 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane 233 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: Ye and Richard Martin, who was also our editor. I'm 234 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 235 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday 236 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.