1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,573 --> 00:00:19,453 Speaker 2: We're talking about Winston Peters. In an interview with The Herald, 4 00:00:19,933 --> 00:00:23,773 Speaker 2: he has ruled out ever working with labor leader Chris Hipkins. 5 00:00:24,253 --> 00:00:27,173 Speaker 2: To chat more about this, we are joined by our 6 00:00:27,213 --> 00:00:31,373 Speaker 2: political editor Jason Walls. Get a mate, Good afternoon, my friends. 7 00:00:31,373 --> 00:00:32,492 Speaker 3: How old were you doing? 8 00:00:32,773 --> 00:00:35,253 Speaker 4: Fantastic? Thank you. What do you think voters think of 9 00:00:35,333 --> 00:00:38,253 Speaker 4: leaders who will slag off other parties and other politicians 10 00:00:38,293 --> 00:00:40,013 Speaker 4: but not rule out working with them? Jason? 11 00:00:41,053 --> 00:00:43,612 Speaker 2: Nice, easy one to start off, Jason, Oh yeah, he's 12 00:00:43,653 --> 00:00:45,412 Speaker 2: throw me the curve balls early on. 13 00:00:45,492 --> 00:00:47,453 Speaker 3: So what was it again? Sorry, I had a hard 14 00:00:47,492 --> 00:00:48,172 Speaker 3: time tracking that. 15 00:00:48,653 --> 00:00:50,413 Speaker 4: Well, let's see if I can remember what I said. 16 00:00:50,693 --> 00:00:54,093 Speaker 4: It was something like, what do voters think in your 17 00:00:54,133 --> 00:00:56,493 Speaker 4: experience of leaders? How to voters react to leaders who 18 00:00:56,493 --> 00:01:00,373 Speaker 4: will slag off members of other parties and other parties 19 00:01:01,053 --> 00:01:03,572 Speaker 4: but will not rule out working with them. Chippy has 20 00:01:03,573 --> 00:01:07,653 Speaker 4: said some pretty horrific things about Winston Peters, but then 21 00:01:07,693 --> 00:01:10,013 Speaker 4: he'll leave the little door open just a little bit, 22 00:01:10,093 --> 00:01:12,572 Speaker 4: just on the off chance that he'll need him come 23 00:01:13,292 --> 00:01:13,932 Speaker 4: post election. 24 00:01:14,453 --> 00:01:16,333 Speaker 3: I think I know what. Yah, So Chippy said this 25 00:01:16,333 --> 00:01:18,013 Speaker 3: this morning when he was asked about this story. 26 00:01:18,053 --> 00:01:20,173 Speaker 5: I think, frankly, New Zealanders have had enough of being 27 00:01:20,173 --> 00:01:22,613 Speaker 5: held to ransom by Winston Peters and David Seymour. I 28 00:01:22,613 --> 00:01:24,613 Speaker 5: think they want to get back to the idea that 29 00:01:24,652 --> 00:01:27,533 Speaker 5: the government's there to serve people rather than serve themselves, 30 00:01:27,572 --> 00:01:29,333 Speaker 5: which you know Winston Peter's frankly as a master. 31 00:01:29,413 --> 00:01:31,173 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, so rule them out. 32 00:01:31,493 --> 00:01:33,893 Speaker 3: Yeah. The thing is that you can't hear something like 33 00:01:33,932 --> 00:01:35,613 Speaker 3: that and think that Chippy is going to go cap 34 00:01:35,652 --> 00:01:39,253 Speaker 3: in hand to Winston Peters after the election. It just 35 00:01:39,333 --> 00:01:42,012 Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense. But then again, you think about 36 00:01:42,053 --> 00:01:45,413 Speaker 3: what Winston Peters said about the National Party when he 37 00:01:45,493 --> 00:01:48,293 Speaker 3: was in OP when he was he was deputy Prime 38 00:01:48,333 --> 00:01:52,813 Speaker 3: Minister under Justinda Ardern. I mean I remember quite quite 39 00:01:52,813 --> 00:01:55,773 Speaker 3: firmly in my mind this this instance where we were 40 00:01:55,853 --> 00:01:57,493 Speaker 3: on the black and white tiles, which is where we 41 00:01:57,533 --> 00:01:59,493 Speaker 3: get ministers before they go into the House, and just 42 00:01:59,573 --> 00:02:02,493 Speaker 3: Sinda ardun was doing a press conference. Winston Peters came 43 00:02:02,573 --> 00:02:05,013 Speaker 3: walking on behind her and usually he just darts straight 44 00:02:05,053 --> 00:02:07,293 Speaker 3: through and hopes not to get or pretends to hope 45 00:02:07,333 --> 00:02:09,613 Speaker 3: he's not going to be called by reporters. But he 46 00:02:09,693 --> 00:02:12,213 Speaker 3: waited and he waited, and he waited until just send 47 00:02:12,253 --> 00:02:14,133 Speaker 3: it our durn finished up, and then he looked at us, 48 00:02:14,373 --> 00:02:17,333 Speaker 3: got his phone out started This is when Simon Bridges 49 00:02:17,453 --> 00:02:19,532 Speaker 3: was the leader of the NATS, started playing the song 50 00:02:19,613 --> 00:02:22,413 Speaker 3: on his phone called Burning Bridges and just walked through 51 00:02:22,493 --> 00:02:25,532 Speaker 3: with the entire press frum playing this very loudly. And 52 00:02:25,893 --> 00:02:28,013 Speaker 3: this is we were like, he will never work with National? 53 00:02:28,093 --> 00:02:30,173 Speaker 3: How could he work with National after pulling a stunt 54 00:02:30,173 --> 00:02:32,693 Speaker 3: like this? But Winston, and I hate saying this, but 55 00:02:32,733 --> 00:02:35,133 Speaker 3: it's the old cliche. Winston is Winston, and of course 56 00:02:35,373 --> 00:02:37,893 Speaker 3: look what happened now, and him and Chris Luxon are 57 00:02:37,933 --> 00:02:40,413 Speaker 3: just sort of two peas in a political pot at 58 00:02:40,453 --> 00:02:40,813 Speaker 3: the moment. 59 00:02:41,053 --> 00:02:44,573 Speaker 4: So you're saying that Chris Hopkins is running the same 60 00:02:44,653 --> 00:02:46,493 Speaker 4: playbook as Winston Peters. 61 00:02:46,532 --> 00:02:48,773 Speaker 3: I think it's a lot different. Only Winston can get 62 00:02:48,773 --> 00:02:51,613 Speaker 3: away with what Winston does. And he holds a grudge, 63 00:02:51,653 --> 00:02:53,693 Speaker 3: grudge like no one else. And I know me saying 64 00:02:53,933 --> 00:02:55,653 Speaker 3: he holds a grudge like no one else on air 65 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:57,693 Speaker 3: means he's going to hold a grudge against me, which 66 00:02:57,693 --> 00:02:59,973 Speaker 3: I'm very excited about. For the next couple of months, 67 00:02:59,972 --> 00:03:02,613 Speaker 3: but it's he he'll remember these sorts of things and 68 00:03:02,653 --> 00:03:06,733 Speaker 3: he'll remember these comments. So it seems extremely unlikely. But 69 00:03:06,813 --> 00:03:10,333 Speaker 3: it's never smart to really rule any political party out 70 00:03:10,373 --> 00:03:11,692 Speaker 3: because you do need a little bit of lever. 71 00:03:11,813 --> 00:03:14,132 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I guess they're smart and what's morally right. 72 00:03:14,252 --> 00:03:16,693 Speaker 4: And so if you believe in something, and if Chris 73 00:03:16,733 --> 00:03:20,133 Speaker 4: Hopkins absolutely believes the things that he says about Winston Peters, 74 00:03:20,133 --> 00:03:24,013 Speaker 4: then it shouldn't even take him a second to follow 75 00:03:24,053 --> 00:03:26,013 Speaker 4: that up by saying I wouldn't work with them. Otherwise 76 00:03:26,053 --> 00:03:28,373 Speaker 4: you call into question what he's saying, whether he actually 77 00:03:28,413 --> 00:03:29,692 Speaker 4: believes in what he's saying. 78 00:03:29,733 --> 00:03:32,213 Speaker 3: Oh exactly, And the sort of things that he said 79 00:03:32,493 --> 00:03:35,373 Speaker 3: about working with Winston Peters when they're in government. I mean, 80 00:03:35,373 --> 00:03:37,253 Speaker 3: it's the sort of things that you can't take back. 81 00:03:37,413 --> 00:03:39,293 Speaker 3: And this isn't just the sort of things that Hopkins 82 00:03:39,333 --> 00:03:41,533 Speaker 3: has said to me over a quiet beer. He said 83 00:03:41,573 --> 00:03:44,973 Speaker 3: these things on Morning Report, he said them on breakfast radios, 84 00:03:45,013 --> 00:03:46,493 Speaker 3: so it's not like he's been quiet. 85 00:03:46,573 --> 00:03:48,173 Speaker 4: But just leave the door open a little bit, just 86 00:03:48,213 --> 00:03:48,733 Speaker 4: in case it. 87 00:03:48,693 --> 00:03:50,773 Speaker 3: Works with its slightly a jar, just in case things 88 00:03:50,773 --> 00:03:53,213 Speaker 3: get better, you know. But it's that old captain's cool situation, 89 00:03:53,333 --> 00:03:55,773 Speaker 3: isn't it, Jason. What I hear when I heard that 90 00:03:55,813 --> 00:03:58,773 Speaker 3: interview with Ryan Bridge this morning with Chippy is Chippy 91 00:03:58,893 --> 00:04:00,653 Speaker 3: has buger or leverage. 92 00:04:00,213 --> 00:04:03,253 Speaker 2: By leaving that door open or needing to he knows 93 00:04:03,293 --> 00:04:06,173 Speaker 2: he doesn't have much leverage eighteen months out from an election. 94 00:04:06,613 --> 00:04:09,613 Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly the That's exactly right. I mean at 95 00:04:09,613 --> 00:04:12,213 Speaker 3: this point, if he doesn't work with Winston Peters, he 96 00:04:12,333 --> 00:04:15,773 Speaker 3: needs to see the Greens anti Party Marty and his 97 00:04:15,853 --> 00:04:19,573 Speaker 3: own Labor Party have a resurgence to the point where 98 00:04:19,573 --> 00:04:23,213 Speaker 3: they just consistently polling above that threshold. And I just 99 00:04:23,253 --> 00:04:26,093 Speaker 3: don't it's hard to imagine that happening between now and 100 00:04:26,133 --> 00:04:28,333 Speaker 3: the election, because I'll tell you what. I was listening 101 00:04:28,333 --> 00:04:31,333 Speaker 3: to David Farrier who was doing a segment on Heather 102 00:04:31,373 --> 00:04:34,533 Speaker 3: Duplusy Allen, and he was talking about this data that 103 00:04:34,573 --> 00:04:37,613 Speaker 3: he has about the drag of other leaders that they 104 00:04:37,613 --> 00:04:39,453 Speaker 3: have on the main parties, and he found that if 105 00:04:39,493 --> 00:04:42,933 Speaker 3: you're a National Party supporter, you tend to like Winston Peters, 106 00:04:43,133 --> 00:04:45,853 Speaker 3: you tend to like David Seymour, so you're not too 107 00:04:45,893 --> 00:04:49,053 Speaker 3: worried if they're in a coalition together because generally you 108 00:04:49,173 --> 00:04:51,613 Speaker 3: understand the ethos that all three leaders have. You don't 109 00:04:51,613 --> 00:04:54,013 Speaker 3: have to love them, but you don't hate them. When 110 00:04:54,093 --> 00:04:57,173 Speaker 3: that same information was done and that same polling was 111 00:04:57,173 --> 00:04:59,373 Speaker 3: done about the Labor Party when it came to the 112 00:04:59,373 --> 00:05:03,133 Speaker 3: Greens anti party Marty, they found that Labor voters did 113 00:05:03,133 --> 00:05:06,453 Speaker 3: not like Chloe Swarbrick and mar Davidson and did not 114 00:05:06,733 --> 00:05:08,893 Speaker 3: like Demi Nardi Werepacker are with you? 115 00:05:08,933 --> 00:05:09,333 Speaker 1: Wait? 116 00:05:09,653 --> 00:05:12,093 Speaker 3: And so that's really going to come and bite the 117 00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:15,053 Speaker 3: sort of the soft middle when it comes to the election, 118 00:05:15,213 --> 00:05:17,493 Speaker 3: because they're going to be looking at those support partners 119 00:05:17,493 --> 00:05:19,253 Speaker 3: on the left and thinking not for me, thank you 120 00:05:19,373 --> 00:05:21,813 Speaker 3: very much. I'm going to stick somewhere safer, which is 121 00:05:22,053 --> 00:05:22,733 Speaker 3: the center rate. 122 00:05:23,133 --> 00:05:25,253 Speaker 2: Jason, we're loving this. Can you stick with us for 123 00:05:25,293 --> 00:05:27,333 Speaker 2: another couple of minutes. We've got to play some messages, 124 00:05:27,413 --> 00:05:28,773 Speaker 2: but we've got a few more questions for you. 125 00:05:28,813 --> 00:05:29,333 Speaker 1: Is that all right now? 126 00:05:29,453 --> 00:05:30,973 Speaker 3: I think I can do that for you boys. 127 00:05:31,773 --> 00:05:33,133 Speaker 4: I want to ask you what it's like to be 128 00:05:33,213 --> 00:05:37,853 Speaker 4: in that media pack facing when he's in full full fly. 129 00:05:38,053 --> 00:05:44,493 Speaker 2: He is fascinated by it, Jason, beautiful. 130 00:05:44,853 --> 00:05:46,933 Speaker 4: You got to say it's interesting. People were very harsh 131 00:05:47,013 --> 00:05:49,773 Speaker 4: on sign Bridges when he was in power now I 132 00:05:49,773 --> 00:05:52,453 Speaker 4: think nice people love him. Yeah, it's kind of nice. 133 00:05:52,493 --> 00:05:55,813 Speaker 4: Bear hindsight is twenty when it all goes away. 134 00:05:56,173 --> 00:05:59,133 Speaker 2: Now we are cause joined by our political editor Jason Wolves. 135 00:05:59,133 --> 00:06:01,613 Speaker 2: Thanks for hanging with us, Jason, of course. 136 00:06:01,373 --> 00:06:04,213 Speaker 4: Two quick questions. Firstly, in your opinion, how has Winston 137 00:06:04,253 --> 00:06:06,773 Speaker 4: done as Deputy Prime Minister with less than a week 138 00:06:06,813 --> 00:06:07,093 Speaker 4: to go? 139 00:06:07,933 --> 00:06:10,733 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, no, I'd die the third time. Yeah, 140 00:06:10,813 --> 00:06:13,973 Speaker 3: I couldn't rate him badly. I mean, he's one of 141 00:06:14,053 --> 00:06:16,693 Speaker 3: the best, if not the best foreign ministers that New 142 00:06:16,773 --> 00:06:19,253 Speaker 3: Zealand has ever had, and he's done an exceptional job 143 00:06:19,293 --> 00:06:22,173 Speaker 3: in that capacity. While he's been in the job. He's 144 00:06:22,173 --> 00:06:25,173 Speaker 3: been to I think I saw forty three different countries, forty. 145 00:06:24,973 --> 00:06:27,453 Speaker 4: Four countries, and he's spent one hundred and fifty two 146 00:06:27,653 --> 00:06:30,733 Speaker 4: days overseas traveling. 147 00:06:30,853 --> 00:06:33,733 Speaker 3: And that's what you want as a foreign minister. At 148 00:06:33,773 --> 00:06:36,173 Speaker 3: the same time, he's New Zealand First leader, and New 149 00:06:36,253 --> 00:06:39,253 Speaker 3: Zealand First has kept its ratings up in the polls. 150 00:06:39,573 --> 00:06:42,173 Speaker 3: Usually we see New Zealand First slump when they're in 151 00:06:42,213 --> 00:06:44,573 Speaker 3: these positions of power. And again this comes back to 152 00:06:44,653 --> 00:06:47,373 Speaker 3: for me the leadership of Chris Luxon, saying that Winston 153 00:06:47,653 --> 00:06:50,413 Speaker 3: you go ahead and be Winston while you're Deputy Prime Minister, 154 00:06:50,493 --> 00:06:53,133 Speaker 3: because he's thinking about the next election saying well, we 155 00:06:53,173 --> 00:06:55,493 Speaker 3: need New Zealand first, and for New Zealand first to 156 00:06:55,493 --> 00:06:57,453 Speaker 3: get back into power, you need to continue to be 157 00:06:57,733 --> 00:07:00,413 Speaker 3: New Zealand first while you're in office. So I rate 158 00:07:00,493 --> 00:07:03,573 Speaker 3: him relatively highly. I think that where he does have faults, 159 00:07:03,573 --> 00:07:06,053 Speaker 3: as in the House. It's hard watching him in the 160 00:07:06,093 --> 00:07:08,853 Speaker 3: House because he just continues to sort of flaunt the 161 00:07:08,933 --> 00:07:11,533 Speaker 3: rules and not really listen to the speaker when it 162 00:07:11,533 --> 00:07:13,853 Speaker 3: comes to the things that he's doing wrong, and he 163 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:17,173 Speaker 3: just makes these ridiculous little supplementary questions every once in 164 00:07:17,213 --> 00:07:19,293 Speaker 3: a while that make absolutely no sense. But he can't 165 00:07:19,293 --> 00:07:22,893 Speaker 3: really fault the fact that he's juggling three pretty major things. 166 00:07:23,573 --> 00:07:27,533 Speaker 4: And as TP Prime ministery doesn't lay off as a 167 00:07:27,653 --> 00:07:29,573 Speaker 4: text on the media. And you've been in the front 168 00:07:29,613 --> 00:07:31,253 Speaker 4: line a lot of the media pack, How is it 169 00:07:31,293 --> 00:07:36,093 Speaker 4: to face up against Winston Peterson in full flight? Jason Wilf, Well. 170 00:07:36,053 --> 00:07:38,493 Speaker 3: It's hard when you're a junior reporter because he doesn't 171 00:07:38,533 --> 00:07:40,253 Speaker 3: hold back, and what he does is he knows that 172 00:07:40,293 --> 00:07:42,813 Speaker 3: if you're not very confident, he'll exploit that. There are 173 00:07:42,853 --> 00:07:45,893 Speaker 3: some politicians where they know that if it's a newer 174 00:07:45,973 --> 00:07:49,013 Speaker 3: reporter and they're just asking questions on behalf of a colleague, 175 00:07:49,013 --> 00:07:50,693 Speaker 3: they'll help you out a little bit and they know 176 00:07:50,813 --> 00:07:53,173 Speaker 3: the gist of what you're asking. With Winston, if you're 177 00:07:53,173 --> 00:07:55,933 Speaker 3: not precise to the letter and the detail of what 178 00:07:55,973 --> 00:07:57,893 Speaker 3: it is you're asking, he'll rip you out in front 179 00:07:57,933 --> 00:08:00,373 Speaker 3: of absolutely everybody there. So when you get a little 180 00:08:00,373 --> 00:08:01,973 Speaker 3: bit of confidence, you give it back to him a 181 00:08:02,013 --> 00:08:04,133 Speaker 3: little bit, and he likes it. He does like a 182 00:08:04,133 --> 00:08:06,253 Speaker 3: little bit of back and forth. There's a reporter in 183 00:08:06,293 --> 00:08:09,053 Speaker 3: the Herald office, actually, Jamie Ensawer, who seems to have 184 00:08:09,093 --> 00:08:11,453 Speaker 3: made it a mission to get under Winston's skin in 185 00:08:11,533 --> 00:08:13,973 Speaker 3: these sort of interviews. He's a very good reporter, but 186 00:08:14,053 --> 00:08:16,373 Speaker 3: you get the best grabs out of him when you 187 00:08:16,453 --> 00:08:18,413 Speaker 3: actually sort of dig in a little bit and he 188 00:08:18,493 --> 00:08:20,533 Speaker 3: hits you with, oh the words matter, and then you 189 00:08:20,573 --> 00:08:22,653 Speaker 3: go back and quote something that he said in back 190 00:08:22,653 --> 00:08:25,053 Speaker 3: in nineteen Ditaly something and then he just kind of 191 00:08:25,133 --> 00:08:27,293 Speaker 3: laughs at you. So he's a lot of fun. I mean, 192 00:08:27,333 --> 00:08:29,133 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's the best for sort of 193 00:08:29,413 --> 00:08:32,053 Speaker 3: media trust in New Zealand to have somebody that's consistently 194 00:08:32,093 --> 00:08:34,413 Speaker 3: saying how bad we are at our jobs, but you 195 00:08:34,453 --> 00:08:35,973 Speaker 3: know I have fun. 196 00:08:36,053 --> 00:08:38,973 Speaker 2: Bring it on, Winston. Yeah, Jason, thank you very much 197 00:08:38,973 --> 00:08:40,933 Speaker 2: as always, mate, and great to catch up. 198 00:08:41,293 --> 00:08:41,533 Speaker 1: Yeah. 199 00:08:41,533 --> 00:08:42,653 Speaker 3: Thanks guys, it's been a pleasure. 200 00:08:42,693 --> 00:08:44,733 Speaker 2: That is our political editor, Jason Wolves. 201 00:08:45,252 --> 00:08:47,893 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks d B, listen live on 202 00:08:47,973 --> 00:08:50,933 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 203 00:08:50,973 --> 00:08:53,573 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.