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Speaker 1: New report that's looked into the influence of gangs and

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Speaker 1: what sort of influence they're having in prisons. It's the

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Speaker 1: old line there is no rehabit simply a place of recruitment.

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Speaker 1: One suggesting that's interesting split the system gangs and non

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Speaker 1: gangs any way. Independent Research Solutions director and author of

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Speaker 1: the report, Jared Gilbert back with us morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Mike.

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Speaker 1: I noticed in this report you talk about rehab. Is

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Speaker 1: rehab really the goal? I mean, realistically the goal in prison?

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Speaker 1: Has it ever really been that? Well?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the first prisons, when the first modern

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Speaker 2: prisons in the early eighteen hundreds, that's sort of what

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Speaker 2: the promise was.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Consequently they've I've got two or three functions, really punishment,

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Speaker 2: holding people to account, and making sure, you know, dangerous

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Speaker 2: people are are managed. But rehabilitation is certainly one important

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Speaker 2: goal for sure, right, So gangs, right, and we spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of money trying to achieve it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we do. If gangs run the place, is that

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Speaker 1: a lack of oversight from corrections.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be careful saying gangs run the place,

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Speaker 2: because corrections still hold the keys, right, But in that

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Speaker 2: informal world of the prism have you know, they do

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Speaker 2: have too much power, and this is a detriment to

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Speaker 2: the running of the prison. I don't think you can

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Speaker 2: see it any other way.

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Speaker 1: Is that known by corrections?

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Speaker 2: It's certainly known by a correction staff, because I interviewed

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Speaker 2: them and actually look a meeting with the chief execut

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Speaker 2: later day to talk through the implications of the report.

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Speaker 2: But clearly, if one of your goals is rehabilitation, and

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Speaker 2: for corrections it certainly is, then this level of control

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Speaker 2: and power is problematic because of course, if you're creating

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Speaker 2: a place of fear not that doesn't just mean that

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Speaker 2: the gangs at the top tier of this sort of

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Speaker 2: informal hierarchy. It means that it pushes people toward joining

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Speaker 2: a gang for security. So while you're causing the problems,

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Speaker 2: you're also benefiting from them, which is kind of which

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Speaker 2: is far from idea.

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Speaker 1: One of the most telling figures thirty five percent or

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Speaker 1: involuntary segregation. Does that mean a person like me, I

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Speaker 1: robbed the bank. I'm not a gang member, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be a gang member, but I'm getting beaten

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Speaker 1: up on and so I go to stick me in

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Speaker 1: a sell and I'll stay there for my leg Is

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Speaker 1: that how it works?

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Speaker 2: That, that is how it works. If you can take

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Speaker 2: care of yourself, the gangs will give you a bit

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Speaker 2: of status. You'll be sort of tire too. But if

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Speaker 2: you can't, then you've become incredibly vulnerable to They take

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Speaker 2: a chicken mic, they'll take your lozenges, you know, your

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Speaker 2: nicoteen longe, and they'll take whatever they can from you.

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Speaker 2: They may force you to do things as well. And

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Speaker 2: so yeah, the option is to go to voluntary segregation.

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Speaker 2: So what we've seen as the culture in the prisons

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Speaker 2: has changed, this massive increase over years of voluntary segregation.

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Speaker 2: So we're kind in some way ways we are unconsciously

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Speaker 2: established establishing two prisons.

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Speaker 1: And could you do that? Well, I mean that's the

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Speaker 1: interesting thing. Could you do that? Could you split the

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Speaker 1: gangs off into a prison gang non prison gang? Is

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Speaker 1: that possible or hopelessly?

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Speaker 2: No? It may well be that we have to go

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Speaker 2: to wings. But if we are going to separate wings,

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Speaker 2: but if we are going to do that, we should

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Speaker 2: be doing it consciously and with a plan, rather than

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Speaker 2: just sort of allowing it happen. I was going to

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Speaker 2: say naturally and as much in prisons as natural.

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Speaker 1: No, exactly, all right, Jared, appreciate it. Jared Gilbert, Minister

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Speaker 1: of Corrections. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast listen

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