1 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Zealand has seen plenty of severe weather in recent years. 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: Stories about towns flooding when hit with heavy rainfall have 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: become commonplace. Just in the last month, towns like Nelson 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: and Marlborough have been devastated, while other areas like Taranaki 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: have been badly affected as this type of rainfall becomes 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: the norm. But what are the long term solutions? Today 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: on the Front Page, Doctor Tom Logan, senior lecturer at 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: the University of Canterbury and Chief Technical Officer at Urban Intelligence, 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: is with us to explore how we can better protect 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: our towns from severe weather and if moving them should 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: be on the cards. Tom, when you look at some 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: of the extreme weather events we've had this year, does 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: it seem that the risk of flooding and other climate 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: impacts is becoming more of a reality. 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the we're certainly seeing more of the 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: impacts of climate change and definitely is feeling more real 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: to everyone. I think over the last not even this year, 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 2: but over the last maybe five years, it's just seemed 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 2: like there's been another disaster all the time, and we've 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: seen a lot of studies that attribute those weather events 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: to climate change. 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: What do you see is some of the common issues 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 1: that come up whenever there is a major weather event. 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: So the obvious one is flooding of homes, but I 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: think it's we're starting to see a lot more nuance 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: to what those impacts are. Like. Obviously homes and infrastructure 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: that is affected, so people then get cut off or stranded, 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: but a lot more disruption sort of what we would 31 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: call cascading or domino effects, if you will, where the 32 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: where the hazard has affected an infrastructure. But because we've 33 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: designed society on what we describe as interdependent systems, so 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: all of these connections, as soon as one domino falls, 35 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: all of these others for and that's where we see 36 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: these longer term outages or impacts, whether it's road or 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: power or water, what have you. 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you often see the same thing around roads, flooding, 39 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: rivers bursting their banks, power lines falling down, and all that. 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's right. And it's those sort of physical 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: impacts that then lead to the wider, perhaps less tangible impacts, 42 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: and that's those ones that are actually more insidious. These 43 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: are things that actually affect people. It's those disruptions to 44 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: homes or businesses or supply chains. 45 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: What do we get wrong at a local central government 46 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: level around how we approach preparing for the future. 47 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: I think the key one of the key challenges is 48 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: that we still generally we recognize that climate changes is happening, 49 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: but we haven't really embedded that into our design that 50 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: we have to change and design for different conditions in 51 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: ten or twenty years. It's not what we can't continue 52 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: to design for the environment that we had ten twenty 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 2: fifty years ago. And as a result, our planning and 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: the system set up by the BI central government aren't equipped, 55 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: aren't providing the resources for or even empowering local government 56 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: to make the decisions that they need to be making. 57 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: Really, the process we're preparing for a big event like 58 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 3: that is decades in the making, or at least years 59 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: in the making. Our pipes just simply can't handle that 60 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: much water at one time, and that's how we drain 61 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: our cities in our streets. What we need to look 62 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: at is more nature based solutions, or we call sponge 63 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: city approach to absorbing a lot of that water and 64 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: lessening the impact. 65 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: The Herald recently reported that Auckland Council has approved four 66 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: thousand new homes in flood prone areas and that since 67 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. Are you surprised by this? 68 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: No. Analysis that we did in twenty nineteen showed that 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: christ Church and I think christ Church and Denedan with 70 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: some of the areas with the highest increases of new 71 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: builds and that would have been a percentage of their 72 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: total residential property. So I'm not surprised that Auckland as 73 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: a total number would be up there as well. But 74 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: then in terms of number of properties built in coastal 75 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: flood zones, and that's just coastal, not including river and 76 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: I think that's where that challenges is that we're still 77 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: often counselors find themselves up being a rock and a 78 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: hard place because they don't always have the resources or 79 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: the mandate to prevent that development. 80 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: What are some of the short term solutions that you 81 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: think aren't working. 82 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: I think there's this pressure that we have to act 83 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: quickly and visibly, but what we've seen from international research 84 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: is that these what we would call disaster driven responses 85 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: can be inefficient or even now adaptive. So for example, 86 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: there'll be a drive following a wildfire, for example, to 87 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: increase burnoffs, but we know that burnoffs actually can maybe 88 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: they suppress frequent fires, but make the impacts of bigger 89 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: fires much worse. And similarly we would see somelar. We 90 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: would see the same thing happening with postal or river 91 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: protection in some cases, where where protective structures can reduce 92 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: the impacts of those regular but smaller events but make 93 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: the rest worse from bigger ones. And partially that can 94 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: be due to people thinking that the problem is fixed 95 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: and then their behavior not shifting. So essentially what we're 96 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 2: doing is decision makers are wanting to be seen to 97 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: do something useful and immediately after. But sometimes when that's 98 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 2: not thought out well enough, it can be either inefficient 99 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 2: or not effective at all. 100 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: Right, so what sort of long term solutions should we 101 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: be looking at instead? 102 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: That's essentially when we need to be much more proactive 103 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: in terms of is this the right place for us 104 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: to be investing development? What's the We will need some 105 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 2: hard we will need things like sea walls or harder 106 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: infrastructure protective measures in some areas, but we can't afford 107 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: to do that everywhere in the country, so we need 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: to be very strategic around where we do that. Ultimately, 109 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: what we need to see around the country a risk estments, 110 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: that multi hazard risk assessment, so understand our risk from 111 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: not just flooding but also fire and landslide, even earthquakes, 112 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: groundwater as well, groundwater rise, which could be a major 113 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: problem for us. And then say, let's make sure that 114 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: we don't avoid one area, I need to make us 115 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: more at risk from a different area. And ultimately, what 116 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: we're wanting to do is not take like disproportionate action, 117 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: but saying let's have a plan or have a series 118 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: of plans. That's that says, once the risk becomes intolerable 119 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: in this area, here are some things that we could 120 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: do to reduce them. So plan A, B and C. 121 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: Are there any communities that you think are leading the 122 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: way on long term adaptations? 123 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: Think so, christ Church has just finished an adaptation plan 124 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: for the Diamond Harbor area and that's one of that's 125 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: probably the best example of that in the country and 126 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: possibly worldwide. Actually equally, Bullet District Council has a plan 127 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: to relocate the town of Westport, and that's not saying 128 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: everyone like pack your bags tomorrow. That's saying, look, if 129 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: there's a if there's another major disaster, this is an 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: option for us, so that we're not basically sitting ducks 131 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: with no plan of action. So I think that's where 132 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: where there's a challenge, and often we get a lot 133 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: of Often we'll see vocal pushback in the community, but 134 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: it's not saying, look, this is what we have to do, 135 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: and we have to do it immediately. It's saying there's 136 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: a plan in place if we need it. South Dondan 137 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: is also another area that's been doing some really proactive 138 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: work in this. 139 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: In this space, well, I feel like a lot of 140 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: towns in the South Island, especially like you look at Tasman, 141 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: Marlborough and Nelson always make the headlines for flooding when 142 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: there's a major storm. Could we be looking at having 143 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: to move entire communities at some point? So there's one 144 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: thing to have a plan, but I feel like how 145 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: soon will it be to be? Like right, the cost 146 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: of moving an entire town is actually more feasible than 147 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: the adaptation. 148 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: Efforts that'll surely happen in the next few decades. The 149 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 2: challenges is going to be around insurance as well, because 150 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: at the moment our properties are still largely insured and 151 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: ideally we'd want to move them following when there is 152 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 2: still insurance in place. Once we lose the insurance, that 153 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: means that the resources available to us to do that 154 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: it will become obviously significantly less. But realistically there are 155 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: going to be some areas that because we've built so 156 00:09:54,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: many towns and communities in floodplains for history reasons, but yeah, 157 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: we will we will likely have to move some of them. 158 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: Figuring out how to do that in a way that's 159 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: as best for the residents and for a sense of 160 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: community and all of those aspects is going to be 161 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: as a massive challenge for local government, central government and 162 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: is a big focus of a lot of social science 163 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: research as well. 164 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: Where do you move a down to? 165 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 4: Like, what what do you do? 166 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: How do you start that process? 167 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's the conversation that Westport is having at 168 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: the moment is first off, where would you go? And 169 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: then starting to think about essentially anchor projects that that 170 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: would incentivize or or attract other development. Often, I think 171 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: what we'll see is that there could be a huge 172 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: number of co benefits or other benefits to relocating if 173 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: it's well, we can design the new space and not 174 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 2: just in somewhere that has less risk from hazards, but 175 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: also maybe it is designed more for walking and cycling 176 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: so it's easier to get around or to get things 177 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: that you want to want to go to, or what 178 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: have you, or just having nicer, you know, nicer homes 179 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: rather than all of our cold, cold, classic buildings. But 180 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: it's really going to have to be a conversation that 181 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: include it's going to be a long process to talk 182 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: to the talk to the communities, see what their their preferences. 183 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: We saw in Japan actually that after the Tsunamis, they 184 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 2: really located a lot of their coastal coastal communities or 185 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: coastal towns, but they did it in a really really 186 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: top down way, which meant that a lot of people 187 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: just left. So now so they put all this infrastructure in, 188 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 2: but there was no one, no one stuck around to 189 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: live there because they missed the step of actually asking 190 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: the residents what they wanted. So we can't. Yeah, we 191 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: need to. That's the reason why we still have to 192 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 2: this with the technical side in terms of way is safe, 193 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: and then the social side of well there's no point 194 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: of moving away from all of the For example, if 195 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: you're in Japan, if it's a fishing village, there's no 196 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: point of moving on to the top of the hill 197 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: where you can't easily exiss your livelihood. 198 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 4: Today, the physical scars of the tsunami have been all 199 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 4: but erased from resent Takata. Massive sea walls over forty 200 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 4: feet high have been erected, but that's just the first 201 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 4: line of defense. In an elaborate effort to the tsunami proof 202 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 4: the city represent Takata literally moved mountains, using nearly two 203 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 4: mile long conveyor belts to carry in enough gravel and 204 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 4: rock to build the Great Pyramids of Egypt. In an 205 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: extraordinary civil works undertaking to lift the downtown commercial district 206 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: out of harm's way. And here's the final result. A 207 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 4: city that was once at sea level has elevated itself 208 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 4: by thirty feet. It's a controversial that's cost Japanese taxpayers 209 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 4: more than one billion dollars. 210 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: It sounds like there's a real opportunity for New Zealand 211 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: to be a world leader almost in this in this area. 212 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: Given the fact that you said, what we will have 213 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: to start having serious conversations about this within the next 214 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: few decades. 215 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: I think so. I think especially if we can consider 216 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: it in terms of an opportunity rather than just a 217 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: big problem. But I think that comes from being able 218 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: to have that proactive rather than response like post disaster response, 219 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: being able to say, what is it that we want 220 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: from from the community, What is it that we value? 221 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: Is that is that something that we can still achieve 222 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: or even enhance by moving down the road or so. Yes, 223 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 2: I do think that there's a big opportunity to be 224 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: world leaders and think about what is how can we 225 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 2: make everyone's lives better as we do this, and by 226 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: the way, and reduce our rescue natural hazards well. 227 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: One of the criticisms of the adaptation approach is that 228 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: it can feel like we're giving up when it comes 229 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: to climate change, preparing to live in this new world 230 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: of extreme weather, rather than trying to avoid sea levels 231 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: and temperatures rising. Where do you see adaptation fitting in 232 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: with the fight against climate change? 233 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: So they have to be joined up. Yeah. Clarifying those terms, 234 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: what when we talk about mitigation, we're talking about actions 235 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: that we can take to stop climate change and adaptation 236 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: actions we can take to protect against climate change that's 237 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: already happening, and those terms are such a pain in 238 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: the butt because mitigation and adaptation meant nothing to real people. 239 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: We can't just prepare for climate change and continue to 240 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: let it get worse, because essentially they're saying is we 241 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: have to manage the unavoidable. So we have to manage 242 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: what we've locked them, and we have to avoid the unmanageable. 243 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: And that's where we still really urgently have to do 244 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: everything we can to to ensure that climate change doesn't 245 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: get worse, because if it continues to get worse, it 246 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: we'll get to a point where we can't where we 247 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: can't protect against it. The IBCC has some pretty severe 248 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: impacts that would make life very difficult for for all 249 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: of us. So it's definitely a hand in hand kind 250 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: of approach. We can both future proof our communities in 251 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: terms of natural hazards also do that in a way 252 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: that reduces emissions, builds builds community cohesion and economic vibrancy. 253 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 2: So to me, it's it is a big opportunity, but 254 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: it's also something that we have to have to start 255 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: thinking about proactively. 256 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Tom, Thank you, it's great that's 257 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: it for this episode of the Front Page. You can 258 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at 259 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: enzadherld dot co dot mz. The Front Page is produced 260 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also our 261 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 262 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 263 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,359 Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.