WEBVTT - Can the Louvre’s stolen royal gems ever be recovered? 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Kiyota. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.119 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.640 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.960 In seven minutes, thieves entered the Louver in. 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:25.720 Paris and made off with eight priceless jewels. The necklaces, earrings, 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.760 brooches and crowns had belonged to an array of nineteenth 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:35.400 century royals, including Napoleon's wife Marie Amilie and Empress Eujaney, 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.440 married to Napoleon the Third. The gang were organized professionals 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.920 and had clearly scoped the world's most visited gallery and 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.640 knew exactly what they were after. But after you've jumped all. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.680 Of those hurdles of security, what. 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:55.880 Do you do with this highly recognizable royal regalia? Today 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.440 on the front Page, art historian, author and curator doctor 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.279 Penelope Jackson is with us to take a look at 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:08.200 heists in general and whether it's really like the movies. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.839 Right, So, Penelope, here's what we know so far. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.400 It happened on a Sunday about nine thirty am local time, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.360 shortly after the museum opened. 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.720 Four thieves used a vehicle. 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.959 Mounted mechanical lift to access the Gallery of Apolo via 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.399 a balcony. They cut through the glass panes, got in 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.800 strettened guards, stole the items from two glass display cases, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.120 tried to set fire to the truck below, dropped a 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.560 crown in their escape. I mean, it's all the makings 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.440 of a Netflix movie. From your expertise, what was your 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.240 first reaction to seeing this? 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.680 Yeah, well, look, when I woke out and read about 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.200 it in the news, I kind of instantly thought about 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.600 the brazenness of it, the audacity of how they went 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.800 about it in broad daylight, just you know, half an 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:02.400 hour after the Louve opened, And then I thought, it's 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.200 obviously very sad for the French nation. I mean, this 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.480 is you know, part of their history, their cultural history, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.320 et cetera. So that's really sad because you know, they 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.800 these items, it's highly likely they won't come back or 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.640 in the form that they were stolen in. But also 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:21.120 it made me think about you know, every day in 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.359 the Louver there's about thirty there's a cap of thirty 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.520 thousand visitors. That's a lot of people that go there 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.200 every day. And if you're you know, a tourist there 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.080 and this is your once in a lifetime trip to 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.480 the Louver and you were in that vicinity. How very 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:39.080 scary that is. And I don't think, you know, the 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.560 media hasn't really kind of made that point in a 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:49.000 lot of instances that really Yes, the security has been 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.519 kind of put into a question, but actually the five 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.880 security guards there were threatened, and if you know, they 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.239 protected the visitors that were in that space. So yeah, 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.200 I was thinking how scary that would be to be 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.480 in that inside that Netflix movie, as you said that 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:06.480 would be It would be an awful situation. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.440 Yeah, absolutely, I mean, without giving away too many ideas, 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.320 I suppose how are heists usually done? 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.720 Is this plan fairly typical or is it just atypical 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.040 given the brazeness. 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.560 Like you said, look, every heist is different because obviously 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.800 it happens in a different place and there would be 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.240 a different motivation or there after different objects. But I 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.720 think in this case, you know, there would have been 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.720 a lot of planning. They would have thought about when 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:40.360 to or have it. How you know, they'd organized a 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:46.120 flat deck truck with a furniture ladder that you know, moves, 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.440 and then they had motor scooters ready when they exited. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.840 They had glass cutters for the window. So yeah, this 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.480 was highly organized. They probably would have visited that gallery 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.520 several times and done their homework beforehand to work out 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.760 how they would get in move quickly, because the whole 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.360 thing happened, you know, inside seven minutes. Well another report 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.600 said actually four minutes. Well, you know that's how long 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.280 it takes to boil an egg. You know, it's pretty 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.800 quick to drive up park, get that ladder up to 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.120 the second floor, cut the window, get in, cut the cases, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.000 get the objects out in escape. And clearly they were 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.679 in a hurry because they dropped you know, one item 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.320 though that's actually damaged now because they dropped it. So yeah, yeah, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:34.520 highly organized. 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.599 Does this show that there are glaring gaps in the 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:40.440 loovers security measures? 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.840 That's obviously what people are asking and certainly when something 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.920 like this happens, it will put their security under scrutiny, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.279 There's no doubt about that. But you know, the alarms 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.719 did ring, so they worked, and there were five guards nearby. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.320 But as I said, thirty thousand people visit a day. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.400 They're in excess of thirty thousand objects on display at 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:06.560 any one time. You know, it's a huge organization, and 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.360 you know it's always that difficult thing that you want 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.799 people to see objects and enjoy them, and they these 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.919 pieces were in glass cases. But you know, how else 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:22.400 can you protect them. I mean it's you know, the 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.960 Mona Lisa of course in the same buildings, she's behind glass, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.839 and that actually deflects from seeing the painting up close, 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:36.000 having that experience. And so yeah, it's a really hard 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.200 call between you know, having the objects out there for 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.400 visitors to enjoy an experience and protecting them. But yeah, look, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:52.520 I'm sure the louver will be looking at their security. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.760 There will be you know, a full investigation and report. 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.719 But it's a bit of a kind of whenever this happens, 0:05:58.200 --> 0:05:59.960 it's a bit of a wake up call for us, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.360 the museums and galleries around the world to think, Okay, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.560 let's not be lax. Let's just you know, rethink what 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:11.160 we do. So in a way, I guess that's that's significant. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.400 But you know, the other thing about security guards is 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:21.080 that they have a huge responsibility to protect objects around 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.200 the world in museums and galleries, and yet you will 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.880 find that they most of them, the majority will be 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:32.000 on minimum wage, and so often if there are budget cuts, 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.920 they get rid of security stuff. I mean, just last 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.920 week the art Getter, New South Wales announced cuts and 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.680 among those cuts we're security stuff. So you know, it's 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.000 it's a difficult situation, but I mean you've got to 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:51.880 protect the objects because museums about are about caring and 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:53.320 looking after objects. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.720 In September I saw that thieves took porcelain worth about 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.520 six million euros from a museum in France. The whole 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:06.320 could well have been commissioned by a foreign buyer. The 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.840 article I read said, how prevalent is this kind of thing. 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.640 I'm guessing these people who have so much money that 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:15.840 the only thing they're left wanting in the world is 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:17.400 something that money can't buy. 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.440 Yeah, I mean it's kind of what we call stolen 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:27.480 to order. And look, you can only speculate in this situation. 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.239 You know why those works, why those particular works were targeted. 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:33.760 As I said, you've got, you know, something like thirty 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.640 eight thousand objects in the louver on display and they 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.480 went very specifically for these nine objects. But you know, 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.560 like anything, you've got to think the other side. Okay, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.720 they've taken them, but what can the new owner do 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.600 with them? And very little you know, they could keep 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.000 them in a secret cupboard at home and look at them. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.320 I mean with the pieces of jewelry, you can't exactly 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.640 turn up to the met Gala wearing them because now 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.400 they are all over the internet, which is, you know, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.280 the fabulous thing about the world that we live in 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.800 now and technology that those images. Any any heist, whether 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.360 it's a painting, you know, royal jewels, porcelain, whatever, they 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.119 can get images out there straight away, So anyone trying 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.080 to sell them is it's going to come unstuck basically. Yeah, 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.000 so there's kind of they could be stolen to order, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.680 but you know, we don't know the motivation. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.880 Well, it's really unfortunate actually because with the jewels, obviously, 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.000 they're so recognizable that the only thing that you can 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.080 assume that someone would do when they steal such a 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.959 thing is chop them up into pieces and melt them down. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.280 Is that what usually happens? 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.240 Yeah, Look, I think in this kind of situation, it's 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.400 not like a painting where you can't change its physical 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.000 properties very easily. You know, in this situation, they could. 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:53.640 I mean one of those I think it was the 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.720 Tiara or the Crown had literally had thousands of gems 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.000 in it, you know, diamonds, emerald, you name it, and 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.560 they were big two, so they could all be split 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:09.959 up separately and divided, and you know, that's highly lightly 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.760 that could happen. They could melt down the metals as well, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:19.280 and that's a pretty quick process. The problem is, unless 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.760 they go to someone who really knows what they're doing, 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.960 those stones could actually be damaged in the process of 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.120 removal or breaking down. And the other thing is, of 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.200 course they've got no provenance either, in other words, the 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.080 history of ownership. You know, they can't legitimately sell them 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:38.760 because someone's going to say, oh, well, you know, where 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.800 did this great, big diamond, the size of it whatever 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.480 come from? And of course they can't. They haven't got 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.880 a you know that have to make up a backstory. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:51.560 So yeah, so it's kind of that that's you know, 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.679 complicated in itself because it also involves more people. I mean, 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.520 you've got the four people who were part of the 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.000 highest and then I think there were other people involved 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.840 in the getaway. And then if you then go to 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.240 someone to melt down precious metals and then someone else 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.680 to actually split up the stones, you're you know, network 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.199 is widening, and do you only have to get someone 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:19.520 to spillbean's kind of thing. So yeah, it's a complex 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.880 situation for them. And the other thing is that unfortunately, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.720 if they were going to do that, they'd probably be 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.520 onto it pretty quickly so that they you know, they 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.200 could say basically, so they haven't got the evidence if 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:32.880 they were caught. 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.760 Yeah, and given there are so many people involved, what 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.840 are the chances of someone squealing perhaps, and what are 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.280 the chances of these items actually being recovered. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.400 Yeah, it's interesting because if you look at other cases, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.600 there's one that I've been known about for quite some 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.000 time and have been writing about, and there it was 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.920 a case in nineteen seventy seven in Sydney there was 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.720 an exhibition of the fabulous Australian artist Grace Crossington Smith 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.320 and had an exhibition at the Dela Gallery the Macquarie 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.840 Galleries and twenty eight of her paintings were stolen by 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:11.400 three men overnight and now they have never ever emerged. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.400 And it's really interesting that you know that three people 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.760 fifty years basically and nothing has you know, nothing has 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.760 been recovered. So yeah, but you only have to get 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.560 one person who you know, as I said, spills the 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.520 beans kind of thing. So it's difficult. So in terms 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.120 of recovery though, they reckon and this is a really 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.199 hard thing to measure. That only about ten percent of 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:43.200 artworks objects are ever recovered internationally, and that's a really 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:43.840 low figure. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:56.920 Jewelry expert Alexander Legue fears the worst will never find them. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.160 He tells me, diamonds don't beep when you take them 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.160 through airport's security. He assumes the treasures will be broken 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.079 up and sold for a fraction of their real value. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.400 But that's not the worst of it. What does the 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:15.240 loss of these jewels mean to France? This is France 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.160 itself that has been stolen from us, He says. It's 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.720 not just a piece of history, it's a piece of 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.840 our country. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:28.920 Tell me about the most notable heists in New Zealand. Ah, 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.320 most notable, Well, I guess the ones that are probably 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:38.080 most public. The first one I would say would be 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.360 in nineteen ninety eight from Auckland Art Gallery. There was 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:45.680 an armed robbery and the guy took a paytan called 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.440 Still on Top by the French painter James Tisso. It 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:54.000 was actually recovered, but it had been really badly damaged, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.520 and it took the conservative Sarah Hillary there are two 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.840 years to piece back together, but it was so that's 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:05.400 you know, kind of empowering. And then the other one 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.840 is more recent, was on April four's days two and seventeen, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:14.079 the two Linda portraits were yes from the International Arts 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.600 centerum Parnell and you know, look again you wake up 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:19.200 and see the story and think, oh my god, first 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.040 of April, is this you know, a joke, And of 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.240 course it was not. It took five years for those 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.480 works to come back to be recovered, so they were 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.320 really big news stories at the time. They were significant 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:36.840 art works and you know, there were lots of questions 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:41.520 asked around both of those, certainly Auckland Art Gallery when 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:46.280 the work had been completely conserved it they did a 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.640 wonderful marketing job of relaunching the painting out into the 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.040 community and they. 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.120 Told the story of the work that you know, the 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.040 two year program to basically literally piece it back together too, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.040 So that was really good and the staff there, I know, 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.960 we're always very proud that more people i think saw 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.160 that exhibition than we to see the baby Lion cubs 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.400 at the zoo or something like that. It was, you know, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.439 really really popular because it was a story because it 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.200 was an armed robbery and the security guard was injured 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.200 during the process. It was all very dramatic. It was 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.040 very Netflix like. It stayed in the news for a 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.640 long time. Yeah, So is. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:31.480 That why people, you think, really grab on to these 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.400 kind of heighst stories. I mean, you've written books about 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.440 the subject. Why are people so interested in these things? 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.560 I think, you know, deep down, people really care about 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.640 what in our collections because it's part of our collective history. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.320 Whether you know it's the Royal Jewels in France or 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.600 taong are here or whatever. People care about that because 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:59.960 they're irreplaceable. You know, a nineteenth century French painting in Auckland. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.280 You can't just buy another one. You know, they're highly valuable, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:05.960 or you know, the artist has been dead for so 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.160 long it's not like they can just whip up another one. 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:13.280 So people actually really really care about about our culture, 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:18.720 about objects, and I think that's the intrigue. Yeah. Maybe 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.680 it's also because there's kind of a point of difference. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.120 It's like, I've been amazed at how much international media 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.600 interest there has been about this story, you know, and 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.480 yet it's a really it's a tragic story in many 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.360 ways because it's part of history that might never come 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:43.320 back to the loover. You know, those precious objects. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.720 But here's a mistake. They dropped one of these broaches. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.560 They only rob what nine I think it was nine rotures, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.000 you know diamond like pieces. Well, you just drop a 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.120 ninth of your whole entire load right there. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.400 That's an amateur move. I never dropped a piece of 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:02.080 jewelry ever. 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.840 In twenty five jewelry stores and eighteen million dollars, it's 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:06.600 not going to happen. 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.360 They also got the motorcycles caught right away. I mean, 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:12.880 they're done there. What are you gonna find? They found 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.840 a vest, they found wanted a construction vest. They're ready. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.600 So they made a couple of I call them avait mistakes, 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:20.680 but they did get away. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:20.920 With a lot. 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.640 And we often talk about money behind these things, but 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.280 many of these pieces are just completely They're priceless, right, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.880 you can't put a number on them in terms of 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:40.720 what worldwide I suppose what has been the biggest highst 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.560 or something that has never been recovered that's remained a mystery? 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.480 Because I know that the Mona Lisa was taken and recovered. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.600 Is there anything out there that you know remains to 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:53.440 be seen. 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.320 Could be hanging in some billionaires condo or. 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.720 Something in the alaya like in the James Bond movie. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:02.120 Yeah. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.280 Look, there's a couple of points there that I'd make. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.320 One is that, you know, we talk about monetary value, 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.720 but of course there's obviously different kinds of value. There's 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.639 sentimental value, and there's cultural value, art historical value and 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:19.080 so on. There was there's a case that's still unsolved 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.920 unrecovered works in Boston Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum. They had 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:30.280 thirteen works taken back in nineteen ninety one. And you know, 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:35.680 we're talking about Rembrands and a Vermea, a man a 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:42.280 really really significant artworks and they were taken Saint Patrick's day. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.439 The two guys had dressed up as police officers and 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.480 managed to get into the building and they took these 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.680 works away and they have never ever been recovered. And 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.320 what is really airy, because I've actually visited the museum 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.439 earlier this year, are the empty frames. You go in 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.520 there and there are still the frames where they actually 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:06.320 took the artworks from, which you know, as a poignant 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:08.800 reminder that there used to be a Vermea there, or 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.640 a rem Rand or a renoir, etc. And you kind 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.480 of think, you know, where are they now, and so 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.480 that's been a long time and they say that they 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.600 can't even put a figure on there, but basically it's millions, 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.960 you know. But as you said, that irreplaceable you know, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.960 doesn't matter how much. If you know, if you could 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:36.080 get the insurance money, can you replace them? Possibly not? Yeah, 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.879 I mean in Australia there was the story in nineteen 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.240 eighty six from the National Gallery Victoria in Melbourne. There 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.879 Picasso was taken a nineteen thirty seven painting called Weeping 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:50.239 Woman and at the time, you know, there was a 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.800 lot of information out there in the media about how 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.920 much it was worth, you know, in dollar CeNSE kind 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.800 of thing, and it's now worth you know, supposedly a 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.560 lot more. But the great thing was that it was recovered, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.040 you know, so that was a feel good story kind 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.040 of thing. So look, you know, sometimes there are recoveries 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.560 but sometimes not. But yeah, putting that dollar figure on 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.880 it's kind of in a way, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.919 It's actually because it's also you know, people say, oh, 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:20.840 how much is that worth? It's like, well, it's not 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.200 like a public art museum are even going to sell 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.159 the work. So yeah, it's kind of a bit of 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:27.800 a moot point. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.560 And in terms of I mean, what does one do 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.640 with a stolen painting because with the jewels and everything, 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.840 I understand the logistics around, you know, getting someone to 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.200 unpiece it and then trying to sell off individual pieces. 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.679 But if somebody has the Mona Lisa or a Rembrand 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.160 in their living room, it's going to be instantly recognizable, 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:49.679 isn't it. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:51.040 So what is the marketplace? 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:54.320 Is there some kind of dark, deep dark corners of 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.159 the web where you can sell it or. 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:58.919 Well there is, but I mean the thing is you 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.800 still wouldn't you know, have it above your metal beasts. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.080 You know kind of thing is still going to be 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.000 found out. So unless you've got it in a cupboard 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:08.560 and you just kind of open the doors and have 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.160 a little look every day, yeah, it's very hard, that's right. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.560 So and you can't move these goods, you know, the 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:22.240 value of them, you know, decreases hugely obviously because yeah, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.560 you can't sell them because you haven't got any proof 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.439 of ownership. You haven't got any provenance with that work. 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.440 So it's you know, who's going to fork out all 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.720 that money for something like that. So yes, absolutely, it's 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.719 the kind of people. They had a brick wall, I guess, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.080 and realize that they can't sell these works. Sometimes in 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.679 that case, the works might be recovered, they might give 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.400 a tip off whatever, you know. But yeah, you're right, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:49.800 what can you do with them? 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.320 I can't think of anything more selfish. 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.840 Yeah, exactly, that's a really nice way of putting it, 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:05.400 because you're deprived so many people of their cultural history. Absolutely, 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.600 it's a very very selfish act. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.320 Thank you so much for joining us, Penelope. 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:12.359 You're welcome. Thanks Chelsea. 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.280 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.200 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.320 at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.639 produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:32.600 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.240 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.960 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:41.200 behind the headlines.