1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 3: In seven minutes, thieves entered the Louver in. 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: Paris and made off with eight priceless jewels. The necklaces, earrings, 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: brooches and crowns had belonged to an array of nineteenth 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: century royals, including Napoleon's wife Marie Amilie and Empress Eujaney, 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: married to Napoleon the Third. The gang were organized professionals 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: and had clearly scoped the world's most visited gallery and 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: knew exactly what they were after. But after you've jumped all. 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: Of those hurdles of security, what. 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Do you do with this highly recognizable royal regalia? Today 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: on the front Page, art historian, author and curator doctor 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 2: Penelope Jackson is with us to take a look at 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: heists in general and whether it's really like the movies. 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 3: Right, So, Penelope, here's what we know so far. 17 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: It happened on a Sunday about nine thirty am local time, 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: shortly after the museum opened. 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 3: Four thieves used a vehicle. 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: Mounted mechanical lift to access the Gallery of Apolo via 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: a balcony. They cut through the glass panes, got in 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: strettened guards, stole the items from two glass display cases, 23 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: tried to set fire to the truck below, dropped a 24 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: crown in their escape. I mean, it's all the makings 25 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: of a Netflix movie. From your expertise, what was your 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: first reaction to seeing this? 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, when I woke out and read about 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: it in the news, I kind of instantly thought about 29 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: the brazenness of it, the audacity of how they went 30 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: about it in broad daylight, just you know, half an 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: hour after the Louve opened, And then I thought, it's 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: obviously very sad for the French nation. I mean, this 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: is you know, part of their history, their cultural history, 34 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: et cetera. So that's really sad because you know, they 35 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: these items, it's highly likely they won't come back or 36 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: in the form that they were stolen in. But also 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: it made me think about you know, every day in 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: the Louver there's about thirty there's a cap of thirty 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: thousand visitors. That's a lot of people that go there 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: every day. And if you're you know, a tourist there 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: and this is your once in a lifetime trip to 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: the Louver and you were in that vicinity. How very 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: scary that is. And I don't think, you know, the 44 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: media hasn't really kind of made that point in a 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: lot of instances that really Yes, the security has been 46 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: kind of put into a question, but actually the five 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: security guards there were threatened, and if you know, they 48 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: protected the visitors that were in that space. So yeah, 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking how scary that would be to be 50 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: in that inside that Netflix movie, as you said that 51 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: would be It would be an awful situation. 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, without giving away too many ideas, 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: I suppose how are heists usually done? 54 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: Is this plan fairly typical or is it just atypical 55 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: given the brazeness. 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: Like you said, look, every heist is different because obviously 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: it happens in a different place and there would be 58 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: a different motivation or there after different objects. But I 59 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: think in this case, you know, there would have been 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: a lot of planning. They would have thought about when 61 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: to or have it. How you know, they'd organized a 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: flat deck truck with a furniture ladder that you know, moves, 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: and then they had motor scooters ready when they exited. 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: They had glass cutters for the window. So yeah, this 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: was highly organized. They probably would have visited that gallery 66 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: several times and done their homework beforehand to work out 67 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: how they would get in move quickly, because the whole 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: thing happened, you know, inside seven minutes. Well another report 69 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: said actually four minutes. Well, you know that's how long 70 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: it takes to boil an egg. You know, it's pretty 71 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: quick to drive up park, get that ladder up to 72 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: the second floor, cut the window, get in, cut the cases, 73 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: get the objects out in escape. And clearly they were 74 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: in a hurry because they dropped you know, one item 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: though that's actually damaged now because they dropped it. So yeah, yeah, 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: highly organized. 77 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: Does this show that there are glaring gaps in the 78 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: loovers security measures? 79 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: That's obviously what people are asking and certainly when something 80 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: like this happens, it will put their security under scrutiny, 81 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. But you know, the alarms 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: did ring, so they worked, and there were five guards nearby. 83 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: But as I said, thirty thousand people visit a day. 84 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: They're in excess of thirty thousand objects on display at 85 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: any one time. You know, it's a huge organization, and 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: you know it's always that difficult thing that you want 87 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: people to see objects and enjoy them, and they these 88 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: pieces were in glass cases. But you know, how else 89 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: can you protect them. I mean it's you know, the 90 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: Mona Lisa of course in the same buildings, she's behind glass, 91 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: and that actually deflects from seeing the painting up close, 92 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: having that experience. And so yeah, it's a really hard 93 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: call between you know, having the objects out there for 94 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: visitors to enjoy an experience and protecting them. But yeah, look, 95 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure the louver will be looking at their security. 96 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: There will be you know, a full investigation and report. 97 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: But it's a bit of a kind of whenever this happens, 98 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: it's a bit of a wake up call for us, 99 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: the museums and galleries around the world to think, Okay, 100 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: let's not be lax. Let's just you know, rethink what 101 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: we do. So in a way, I guess that's that's significant. 102 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: But you know, the other thing about security guards is 103 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: that they have a huge responsibility to protect objects around 104 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: the world in museums and galleries, and yet you will 105 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: find that they most of them, the majority will be 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: on minimum wage, and so often if there are budget cuts, 107 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: they get rid of security stuff. I mean, just last 108 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: week the art Getter, New South Wales announced cuts and 109 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: among those cuts we're security stuff. So you know, it's 110 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: it's a difficult situation, but I mean you've got to 111 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: protect the objects because museums about are about caring and 112 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: looking after objects. 113 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: In September I saw that thieves took porcelain worth about 114 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: six million euros from a museum in France. The whole 115 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: could well have been commissioned by a foreign buyer. The 116 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: article I read said, how prevalent is this kind of thing. 117 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: I'm guessing these people who have so much money that 118 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: the only thing they're left wanting in the world is 119 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: something that money can't buy. 120 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's kind of what we call stolen 121 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: to order. And look, you can only speculate in this situation. 122 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 1: You know why those works, why those particular works were targeted. 123 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: As I said, you've got, you know, something like thirty 124 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: eight thousand objects in the louver on display and they 125 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: went very specifically for these nine objects. But you know, 126 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: like anything, you've got to think the other side. Okay, 127 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: they've taken them, but what can the new owner do 128 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: with them? And very little you know, they could keep 129 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: them in a secret cupboard at home and look at them. 130 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: I mean with the pieces of jewelry, you can't exactly 131 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: turn up to the met Gala wearing them because now 132 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: they are all over the internet, which is, you know, 133 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: the fabulous thing about the world that we live in 134 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: now and technology that those images. Any any heist, whether 135 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: it's a painting, you know, royal jewels, porcelain, whatever, they 136 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 1: can get images out there straight away, So anyone trying 137 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: to sell them is it's going to come unstuck basically. Yeah, 138 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: so there's kind of they could be stolen to order, 139 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: but you know, we don't know the motivation. 140 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's really unfortunate actually because with the jewels, obviously, 141 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: they're so recognizable that the only thing that you can 142 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: assume that someone would do when they steal such a 143 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: thing is chop them up into pieces and melt them down. 144 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: Is that what usually happens? 145 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I think in this kind of situation, it's 146 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: not like a painting where you can't change its physical 147 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: properties very easily. You know, in this situation, they could. 148 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I mean one of those I think it was the 149 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: Tiara or the Crown had literally had thousands of gems 150 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: in it, you know, diamonds, emerald, you name it, and 151 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: they were big two, so they could all be split 152 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: up separately and divided, and you know, that's highly lightly 153 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: that could happen. They could melt down the metals as well, 154 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: and that's a pretty quick process. The problem is, unless 155 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: they go to someone who really knows what they're doing, 156 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: those stones could actually be damaged in the process of 157 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: removal or breaking down. And the other thing is, of 158 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: course they've got no provenance either, in other words, the 159 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: history of ownership. You know, they can't legitimately sell them 160 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: because someone's going to say, oh, well, you know, where 161 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: did this great, big diamond, the size of it whatever 162 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: come from? And of course they can't. They haven't got 163 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: a you know that have to make up a backstory. 164 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's kind of that that's you know, 165 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: complicated in itself because it also involves more people. I mean, 166 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: you've got the four people who were part of the 167 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: highest and then I think there were other people involved 168 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: in the getaway. And then if you then go to 169 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: someone to melt down precious metals and then someone else 170 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: to actually split up the stones, you're you know, network 171 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: is widening, and do you only have to get someone 172 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: to spillbean's kind of thing. So yeah, it's a complex 173 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: situation for them. And the other thing is that unfortunately, 174 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: if they were going to do that, they'd probably be 175 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: onto it pretty quickly so that they you know, they 176 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: could say basically, so they haven't got the evidence if 177 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: they were caught. 178 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and given there are so many people involved, what 179 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: are the chances of someone squealing perhaps, and what are 180 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: the chances of these items actually being recovered. 181 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because if you look at other cases, 182 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: there's one that I've been known about for quite some 183 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: time and have been writing about, and there it was 184 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: a case in nineteen seventy seven in Sydney there was 185 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: an exhibition of the fabulous Australian artist Grace Crossington Smith 186 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: and had an exhibition at the Dela Gallery the Macquarie 187 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: Galleries and twenty eight of her paintings were stolen by 188 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: three men overnight and now they have never ever emerged. 189 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: And it's really interesting that you know that three people 190 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: fifty years basically and nothing has you know, nothing has 191 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: been recovered. So yeah, but you only have to get 192 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: one person who you know, as I said, spills the 193 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: beans kind of thing. So it's difficult. So in terms 194 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: of recovery though, they reckon and this is a really 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: hard thing to measure. That only about ten percent of 196 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: artworks objects are ever recovered internationally, and that's a really 197 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: low figure. 198 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: Jewelry expert Alexander Legue fears the worst will never find them. 199 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 4: He tells me, diamonds don't beep when you take them 200 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 4: through airport's security. He assumes the treasures will be broken 201 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 4: up and sold for a fraction of their real value. 202 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: But that's not the worst of it. What does the 203 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: loss of these jewels mean to France? This is France 204 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: itself that has been stolen from us, He says. It's 205 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 4: not just a piece of history, it's a piece of 206 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 4: our country. 207 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: Tell me about the most notable heists in New Zealand. Ah, 208 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: most notable, Well, I guess the ones that are probably 209 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: most public. The first one I would say would be 210 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight from Auckland Art Gallery. There was 211 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: an armed robbery and the guy took a paytan called 212 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 2: Still on Top by the French painter James Tisso. It 213 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: was actually recovered, but it had been really badly damaged, 214 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: and it took the conservative Sarah Hillary there are two 215 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: years to piece back together, but it was so that's 216 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: you know, kind of empowering. And then the other one 217 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: is more recent, was on April four's days two and seventeen, 218 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 2: the two Linda portraits were yes from the International Arts 219 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 2: centerum Parnell and you know, look again you wake up 220 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: and see the story and think, oh my god, first 221 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: of April, is this you know, a joke, And of 222 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: course it was not. It took five years for those 223 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: works to come back to be recovered, so they were 224 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: really big news stories at the time. They were significant 225 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: art works and you know, there were lots of questions 226 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: asked around both of those, certainly Auckland Art Gallery when 227 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: the work had been completely conserved it they did a 228 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: wonderful marketing job of relaunching the painting out into the 229 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: community and they. 230 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: Told the story of the work that you know, the 231 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: two year program to basically literally piece it back together too, 232 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: So that was really good and the staff there, I know, 233 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: we're always very proud that more people i think saw 234 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: that exhibition than we to see the baby Lion cubs 235 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: at the zoo or something like that. It was, you know, 236 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: really really popular because it was a story because it 237 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: was an armed robbery and the security guard was injured 238 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: during the process. It was all very dramatic. It was 239 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: very Netflix like. It stayed in the news for a 240 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, So is. 241 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 2: That why people, you think, really grab on to these 242 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: kind of heighst stories. I mean, you've written books about 243 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: the subject. Why are people so interested in these things? 244 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: I think, you know, deep down, people really care about 245 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: what in our collections because it's part of our collective history. 246 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: Whether you know it's the Royal Jewels in France or 247 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: taong are here or whatever. People care about that because 248 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: they're irreplaceable. You know, a nineteenth century French painting in Auckland. 249 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: You can't just buy another one. You know, they're highly valuable, 250 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: or you know, the artist has been dead for so 251 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: long it's not like they can just whip up another one. 252 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: So people actually really really care about about our culture, 253 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: about objects, and I think that's the intrigue. Yeah. Maybe 254 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: it's also because there's kind of a point of difference. 255 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: It's like, I've been amazed at how much international media 256 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: interest there has been about this story, you know, and 257 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: yet it's a really it's a tragic story in many 258 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: ways because it's part of history that might never come 259 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: back to the loover. You know, those precious objects. 260 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 5: But here's a mistake. They dropped one of these broaches. 261 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 6: They only rob what nine I think it was nine rotures, 262 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 6: you know diamond like pieces. Well, you just drop a 263 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 6: ninth of your whole entire load right there. 264 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 5: That's an amateur move. I never dropped a piece of 265 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 5: jewelry ever. 266 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 6: In twenty five jewelry stores and eighteen million dollars, it's 267 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 6: not going to happen. 268 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 5: They also got the motorcycles caught right away. I mean, 269 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 5: they're done there. What are you gonna find? They found 270 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 5: a vest, they found wanted a construction vest. They're ready. 271 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 6: So they made a couple of I call them avait mistakes, 272 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 6: but they did get away. 273 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 5: With a lot. 274 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: And we often talk about money behind these things, but 275 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: many of these pieces are just completely They're priceless, right, 276 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: you can't put a number on them in terms of 277 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: what worldwide I suppose what has been the biggest highst 278 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: or something that has never been recovered that's remained a mystery? 279 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: Because I know that the Mona Lisa was taken and recovered. 280 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: Is there anything out there that you know remains to 281 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: be seen. 282 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 3: Could be hanging in some billionaires condo or. 283 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: Something in the alaya like in the James Bond movie. 284 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 285 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: Look, there's a couple of points there that I'd make. 286 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: One is that, you know, we talk about monetary value, 287 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: but of course there's obviously different kinds of value. There's 288 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: sentimental value, and there's cultural value, art historical value and 289 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: so on. There was there's a case that's still unsolved 290 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: unrecovered works in Boston Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum. They had 291 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: thirteen works taken back in nineteen ninety one. And you know, 292 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about Rembrands and a Vermea, a man a 293 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: really really significant artworks and they were taken Saint Patrick's day. 294 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: The two guys had dressed up as police officers and 295 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: managed to get into the building and they took these 296 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: works away and they have never ever been recovered. And 297 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: what is really airy, because I've actually visited the museum 298 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: earlier this year, are the empty frames. You go in 299 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: there and there are still the frames where they actually 300 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: took the artworks from, which you know, as a poignant 301 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: reminder that there used to be a Vermea there, or 302 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: a rem Rand or a renoir, etc. And you kind 303 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: of think, you know, where are they now, and so 304 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: that's been a long time and they say that they 305 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: can't even put a figure on there, but basically it's millions, 306 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: you know. But as you said, that irreplaceable you know, 307 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: doesn't matter how much. If you know, if you could 308 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: get the insurance money, can you replace them? Possibly not? Yeah, 309 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: I mean in Australia there was the story in nineteen 310 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: eighty six from the National Gallery Victoria in Melbourne. There 311 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: Picasso was taken a nineteen thirty seven painting called Weeping 312 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,239 Speaker 1: Woman and at the time, you know, there was a 313 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: lot of information out there in the media about how 314 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: much it was worth, you know, in dollar CeNSE kind 315 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: of thing, and it's now worth you know, supposedly a 316 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: lot more. But the great thing was that it was recovered, 317 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, so that was a feel good story kind 318 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: of thing. So look, you know, sometimes there are recoveries 319 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: but sometimes not. But yeah, putting that dollar figure on 320 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of in a way, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant. 321 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: It's actually because it's also you know, people say, oh, 322 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: how much is that worth? It's like, well, it's not 323 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: like a public art museum are even going to sell 324 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: the work. So yeah, it's kind of a bit of 325 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: a moot point. 326 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: And in terms of I mean, what does one do 327 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 2: with a stolen painting because with the jewels and everything, 328 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: I understand the logistics around, you know, getting someone to 329 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 2: unpiece it and then trying to sell off individual pieces. 330 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: But if somebody has the Mona Lisa or a Rembrand 331 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 2: in their living room, it's going to be instantly recognizable, 332 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: isn't it. 333 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: So what is the marketplace? 334 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: Is there some kind of dark, deep dark corners of 335 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: the web where you can sell it or. 336 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: Well there is, but I mean the thing is you 337 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: still wouldn't you know, have it above your metal beasts. 338 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: You know kind of thing is still going to be 339 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: found out. So unless you've got it in a cupboard 340 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: and you just kind of open the doors and have 341 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: a little look every day, yeah, it's very hard, that's right. 342 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: So and you can't move these goods, you know, the 343 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: value of them, you know, decreases hugely obviously because yeah, 344 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: you can't sell them because you haven't got any proof 345 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: of ownership. You haven't got any provenance with that work. 346 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: So it's you know, who's going to fork out all 347 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: that money for something like that. So yes, absolutely, it's 348 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 1: the kind of people. They had a brick wall, I guess, 349 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: and realize that they can't sell these works. Sometimes in 350 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: that case, the works might be recovered, they might give 351 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: a tip off whatever, you know. But yeah, you're right, 352 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: what can you do with them? 353 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: I can't think of anything more selfish. 354 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's a really nice way of putting it, 355 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: because you're deprived so many people of their cultural history. Absolutely, 356 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: it's a very very selfish act. 357 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Penelope. 358 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thanks Chelsea. 359 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 360 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 361 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 362 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor. 363 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 364 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 365 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 366 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.