1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: In the days of resignations, Richard Prebble has stood down 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: from the White Tongue Tribunal. He says the Tribunal has 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: turned the treaty into a socialist manifesto and he wants 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: no part of it. Richard Prebble's the former AT Party leader, 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: now former White Tongue Tribunal member and Labor MP. Good Evening. 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: Good Evening had a range of texts on this this afternoon. 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Some people saying, what did you expect going into this 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: because you've only been there since October? Did you not 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: realize this is what it would be like there? 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: That's a reasonable question. I've been following the Tribunal for 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: fifty years and reading its various decisions, but I have 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: to confess that I had not appreciated that the Tribunal 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: ten years ago basically said it wasn't bound to follow 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: its previous rulings that I'd be reading, and had decided 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: that actually there wasn't one treaty, that there was two, 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: and it basically turned the treaty on its head. The 17 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: second thing that I don't know if I really appreciate it, 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: but the effect of it turning it on its head 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: has turned the Tribunal into the body that creates grievances 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: rather than solving them. One of their rulings is that 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: for those who Article three of the treaty basically made 22 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: everyone British citizens, that Tribunal has ruled, but the citizen 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: clause means that the government must make everyone equal. Well, 24 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: I'm no government anywhere in the world never managed to 25 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: do that. Governments can fry, but people will never be equal. 26 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: You give people opportunities, take them, some don't. But then 27 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: to say that the fact that we're not equal is 28 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: a breach of the fitting means you can bring claims 29 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: basically against the government for every single government program there is. 30 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: And then looking at the strategic plan, which no, I 31 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: couldn't look at before I was a member of the Tribunal. 32 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: In fact, I only got it myself a couple of 33 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: weeks ago. When I looked at that strategic plan, I 34 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 2: saw that the tribunalists forecasting a huge increase in claims 35 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: and its workload. And again it seems to me the 36 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: tribunals turned its function on its head. And I was 37 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: part of the Parliament that helps extend the Tribunal and 38 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: the purpose of the Tribunal was to resolve grievances, not 39 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: to create them. 40 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: You're talking about economic equality, right, that's what they are 41 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: striving for, and you've said that, you know it's socialist 42 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: to think that we that we should all be equal 43 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: on an economic footing. 44 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I've done my best as a as 45 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: a minister to actually try to reduce inequalities in New Zealand. 46 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: But I've never been silly enough to believe that society 47 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: will ever be equal. You give people opportunities and some 48 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 2: people take them and others don't. That's just the that's 49 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: the that's a fact of life everywhere, except apparently on 50 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 2: the Tribunal, which now now says that the treaty as 51 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: they've interpreted, means that the government has a duty to 52 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: make sure that everyone everyone's equal. Well, I hate to 53 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: break it to them, but no government, I mean even 54 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: if a Marray party got into office, God help us, 55 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: they couldn't do it. What no one's done it, No communist, 56 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: no communist government anywhere in the world has managed to 57 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: achieve it. And to suddenly say a treaty which is 58 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: only tree clauses long, which basically says the ground sovereign, 59 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: the property rights are to be predicted, and that we're 60 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: all citizens is now being interpreted, as I say, into 61 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: it as a socialist manifesto. And there's been a lot 62 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: of criticism of David Seymour for suggesting the principles of 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: the treaty. But the tribunals actually invented the most of 64 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: these so called principles, but just not to be found 65 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: either in the English or or the married text. And 66 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: much as some people obviously would love the treaties who 67 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: have said these things, they weren't said in eighteen forty 68 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: and you can't say them now. 69 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: What is the point of you mentioned in your column 70 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: for the Herald today, the fact that the tribunal can 71 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: make rulings and the government can just ignore them anyway, 72 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter. It's now going ag against some 73 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: of the rulings that it has self itself has made 74 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: in the past. I mean, what is the point here? 75 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: You mean point of the tribunal? 76 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, what should it be? 77 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: Oh? The normal the normal way that legal bodies act, 78 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: as they have great respects for previous previous rulings, because 79 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: that leads to stability. But when you suddenly have a 80 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: tribunal that announces that it doesn't have to take any 81 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: notice of the courts, it's not taking any notice of Parliament, 82 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: and then says it doesn't have to take notice of 83 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: forty years of rulings by previous tribunals, and that it 84 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: can suddenly say that there are two treaties, that the 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: treaties aren't and aren't translations of each other. I mean, 86 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: that'll come a great surprise to the people who translated it. 87 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: And it's a rewriting of It's a rewriting of history. 88 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: And I know historians do reinterpret history, but one thing 89 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: you can't do is you can vent Thanks. 90 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: Thanks very much for your time. I'm Richard. I'll just 91 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: find him before you go. Willie Jackson said, this is 92 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: a stunt? Is this a stunt? 93 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: A stunt? 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: Yes, stunt? 95 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: Bye? Who by me? By you? Yeah? Resigning, Well, that's 96 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: an interesting way of putting it. I put a lot 97 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: of a lot of thought before I decided that I 98 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: that I would resign. I mean, I'm a confession to you, 99 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: I'm now seventy seven, and I thought to myself, am 100 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: I going to fit on this tribunal as a lone 101 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: voice saying this is lenacy and with no one listening 102 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: to me. No, I'm not. I don't agree with what 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: is what is happening, and I think I've got a 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: duty to resign, and I've got a duty to tell 105 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: people why I've resigned. I don't particularly want to be 106 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: in the news, but you're entitled. 107 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: To know, fair enough. In other words, you're too old 108 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: for this, you're over at Richard, Hi, thanks for your 109 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: time this evening. Really appreciate it. Richard Preeble, who's no 110 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: longer a member of the White Thing, he tried burnal 111 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: seventeen to six. 112 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to 113 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: news talks. 114 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 115 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.