1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Norman 3 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Kirk was elected Prime Minister in nineteen seventy two, bringing 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: the Labor Party back to power after twelve years of 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: National Party rule. His two years in office were seen 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: as radical at the time in how he sought to 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: reshape New Zealand's place in the world, and his legacy 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: has endured as one of the country's most popular prime ministers. However, 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: on August thirty first, nineteen seventy four, Kirk died after 10 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: a lengthy but private illness with obesity and heart problems. 11 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, as we near that fiftieth anniversary, 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: we're joined by Victoria University of Wellington Professor of History 13 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: Jim McAloon, to discuss the legacy of Kirk's life and death. 14 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: Jim, you've co. 15 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: Written a history of the Labor Party. Can you take 16 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: us back to nineteen seventy two. Labour had not been 17 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: in power since nineteen sixty right. Why had they struggled 18 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: to win over the public in that time? 19 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 3: Partly because at the beginning of the sixties they needed 20 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 3: a process of renewal. In nineteen sixty the party leader 21 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 3: was Walter Nash. He had just been defeated as Prime Minister. 22 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 3: He was seventy eight years old. At that point. There 23 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: was a large part of the caucus and cabinet who 24 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 3: had been in Parliament for a long time, and there 25 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: was a seats that a new generation was being blocked, 26 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 3: and that new generation came through in the early sixties, 27 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: and Norman Kirk was was part of that new generation. 28 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: That's one reason. 29 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: The other reason is that Keith Holyoake and the National 30 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 3: Party pretty much governed from the center. I mean, Holyoak 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: was a very astute, very pragmatic politician. I think his 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 3: instance were genuinely centrist. He wasn't a right wing nidiologue. 33 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 3: And I think that that managed to keep a large 34 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 3: part of the elector at on side for much of 35 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: the sixties, at least till about nineteen sixty seven sixty eight. 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: What was it about Norman Kirk's arrival was the party's 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: leader that kind of transformed things and made the party 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: electable again. 39 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: I suppose, yeah, Well, the transformation took a while because 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 3: Kirk became party leader in nineteen sixty five. At the 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 3: age of forty two, which was young in those days. 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: He defeated the incumbent leader, Arnold Nordmeyer. Now Lordmeyer had 43 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: been in Parliament since nineteen thirty five, he was in 44 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 3: his early sixties by the time Kirk defeated him. He'd 45 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: been a very good and very successu full minister in 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: both the first and Second Labor governments, but as Finance 47 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: Minister in the second Labor government he had been responsible 48 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 3: for some fairly strict measures to deal with an economic crisis, 49 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: and Kirk, no doubt was ambitious and I think took 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: the opportunity to ease lord Meyer a side. But Kirk 51 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: himself was an unknown quantity at that stage. He hadn't 52 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 3: been a minister, He did not immediately grab the public's attention, 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: and his first election as leader in nineteen sixty six 54 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: really didn't result in too much gain for the Labor Party. 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: I think over the next six years he learned what 56 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: was necessary to be a successful party leader and more 57 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: a successful prime minister. They almost got there in nineteen 58 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: sixty nine, but combination of events I think, perhaps including 59 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: a bit of trouble in industrial or relates, perhaps made 60 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 3: just enough voters cautious enough that Keith Holyokes graped back 61 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: end for a fourth term. But really that fourth term 62 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: the writing was pretty much on the wall and Kirk 63 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 3: was setting the agenda. By nineteen seventy seventy one, he 64 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 3: was also increasingly able to capture the spirit of the age, 65 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: especially some of the concerns of the younger generation voters 66 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: in their early twenties around care for the environment, around 67 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: foreign affairs, particularly a parthe eight, and nuclear weapons testing 68 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: in the South Pacific. And I think too he espoused 69 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: a vision which was fresh and compelling by nineteen seventy two, 70 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: of more social justice, more cohesion, and I think to 71 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: what he might have called a more independent sense of 72 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: New Zealand's nationhood and all that was evident in the 73 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: brief time he was Prime Minister as well. 74 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 4: But yeah, it took him a long time to become electable. 75 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 4: And it's interesting. 76 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 3: I don't think any party leader now would be allowed 77 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: two defeats before going on to a third win. 78 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 5: What is it that in fact has urged the people 79 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 5: of New Zealand to change sides complete I think tonight 80 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 5: you could describe this as a victory for the little 81 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 5: people of the country. The average families, the people who 82 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 5: are working in the factories, from the farms, the people 83 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 5: who are inclined always to be overlooked. Have been seriously 84 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 5: concerned about the erosion of family life, the drift of 85 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 5: the community towards a sort of want in materialism. I 86 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 5: think you could say. 87 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: How would you describe Kirk's political ideology or philosophy. 88 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 3: I think compassion, fair shares and solidarity were key parts 89 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: of it. He had been really influenced by his impoverished 90 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 3: childhood in the Great Depression, so he firmly believed in 91 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: the welfare state and an equal opportunity. 92 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: But I think he also. 93 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: Believed that society he as a whole, had a duty 94 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 3: to ensure that no one was left behind, and I 95 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: think that was a key part of his vision. Increasingly, two, 96 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 3: I think his vision for New Zealand was edging toward biculturalism. 97 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 3: There's that famous photo of him with that young Maryana 98 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 3: priest at Waitangi in nineteen seventy three, and I think 99 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 3: to his political philosophy or vision also as I see it, 100 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 3: meant an independent position for New Zealand, not abandoning old 101 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: relationships but making new ones, particularly in the Commonwealth, particularly 102 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: in East Asia and in Africa, and that was where 103 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: some of his foreign policy initiatives came to the fore 104 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: I think I would also say that this was all 105 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: general principle, but he was I think, perhaps less disciplined 106 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: in his ideas of how to achieve these things. I 107 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: think he was not particularly successful in economic terms. Fortunately, 108 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: his finance Minister, Bill Rowling, was extremely capable. But Kirk 109 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: didn't like to be reminded sometimes that even in good times, 110 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: economics is about choices and if you have X, you 111 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: can't have all of why, and so sometimes he got 112 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: a bit impatient with that, and I think his political 113 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: approach was much more about general principles than a finely 114 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: detailed ideology, if I can put it like that. 115 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: I think he found the economic reality so damn frustrating. 116 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: You know, the things he wanted to do, and he 117 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 2: wanted to just get them done. 118 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 6: Like many others had felt that he had got the 119 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 6: role of governing the country by the scruff of the neck, 120 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 6: and he appeared wanted to go in a direction that 121 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 6: he believed that ordinary people had a chance. 122 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 7: I think people who didn't work with them more known 123 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 7: very well tend to semi canonize it and make him 124 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 7: out to be a plaster saint, which he certainly was not. 125 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 7: He was a man of volcanic rages, a very shrewd politician, 126 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 7: with all the connotations that that appled, but he was 127 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 7: also a man of tremendous generosity, great humanity. 128 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: When Kirk is spoken about, he's often discussed as being 129 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: quite popular. Is that fair or has that kind of 130 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: been colored by the fact he did, in fact die 131 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: after only a few years. 132 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: He was very popular at the time. Certainly when he 133 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 3: became Prime Minister. I think there was a genuine feeling 134 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: of a new beginning. Labor enjoyed a large parliamentary majority, 135 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: and I think the expectation was that they would be there. 136 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 4: For several terms. 137 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: Now, Kirk was genuinely popular during nineteen seventy three and 138 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 3: into nineteen seventy four. It's unfortunate, really unfortunate that his 139 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 3: ill health in nineteen seventy four coincided with the end 140 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: of the post war good years and the beginning of 141 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 3: the major recession following the oil shocks of nineteen seventy three. 142 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 3: It's impossible to know what would have happened if he 143 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: had lived, but of course, dying in office did give 144 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: him a posthumous reputation that's very, very hard to shake. 145 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: You know. I don't want to diminish his popularity or 146 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: diminish the positive dimensions of his prime ministership, but there 147 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: is a bit of nostalgia around Kirk that I think 148 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: sometimes gets a little bit uncritical. 149 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: One of the reasons why Kirk is remembered more so 150 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: than I suppose other prime ministers around that era is 151 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: that he did, unfortunately die in office. How much of 152 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: a shock was it when that happened, because from reading 153 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: about his final days, it does kind of sound like 154 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: he had kept things pretty under wraps. 155 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: He absolutely had, I think among his colleagues and perhaps 156 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 3: among informed observers. There's a classic photograph of him at 157 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: the May nineteen seventy four Party conference where he looks 158 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: very very ill, big man, but and that photograph looks 159 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 3: absolutely gaunt. 160 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 4: But for all that, I. 161 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: Think he did, as you say, keep things under wraps. 162 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: And there was a I think in those days there 163 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: was more discretion in journalism, and it's always the case now, 164 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: and that's sometimes a good thing. The more inquiring approach. Now, 165 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 3: you know, it is a matter of public interest of 166 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 3: the Prime Minister is not healthy. 167 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 4: But I think I suspect Kirk. 168 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: Was deceiving himself as well. On one level, I think 169 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: he knew he was ill, but on another level, I 170 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 3: think he perhaps wasn't really able to face that. Certainly 171 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: in public terms, his death was a huge shock. It 172 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: was one of those do you remember where you were 173 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 3: when you heard moments? Yeah, he died on a Saturday 174 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: evening and I yes, in those days without instant media, 175 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: it was announced on the TV and the radio, but 176 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 3: then I think most people picked it up the next day. 177 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: The Third Labor Government made Whiteitangi Day a public holiday 178 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: right and created the Waitangi Tribunal. Was that rather radical 179 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: at the time given the tensions and arguments we still 180 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: have over the treaty today. 181 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 3: Depends who you ask about radical. Start with making day 182 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 3: in a public holiday, Kirk wanted to call it New 183 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: Zealand Day. I think he hoped that the Treaty to 184 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 3: Tenaity would be a focus of unity, and interestingly it 185 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: was Muldoon's National Government that changed it back to Waitangy Day. Now, 186 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 3: the campaign to make Waitangy Day a public holiday had 187 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: been there for years among the Mali members of parliament anyway. 188 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 6: Edit. 189 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 3: Tita cart and the grandfather of Renal, who was in 190 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 3: recent parliament, had been campaigning for that for a very 191 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: long time, and that Batman was picked up by mart 192 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: Ju Data, the member for Northern Mary from nineteen sixty three, 193 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 3: and he and Kirk were pretty close. I think it 194 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: was not presented as a radical initiative. However, it's important 195 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 3: to remember that there had been increasing protest at Waitangi 196 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: in the very early seventies before the public holiday was declared, 197 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: and as I say, I think Kirk and Rata hoped 198 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: that it would in part be a focus of unity instead. 199 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 3: But I think also Tillercartny and Rita had perhaps in 200 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 3: some way envisaged that making the day a public holiday 201 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 3: would also focus attention upon the documents and in the 202 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: longer term push a reckoning with colonial history, and that 203 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: certainly happened now the way Tangi Tribunal initially was not 204 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: perceived as that radical. 205 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 4: Again, it was very much. 206 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: An idea promoted by Martyur Data with Kirk's support. I 207 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: understand that Rata wanted it to have due restriction back 208 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 3: into history, but he could only get through the Labor 209 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 3: Party Cabinet and caucus. At the time, the idea that 210 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 3: the Tribunal was only concerned with present events, so it 211 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 3: couldn't address things that the Crown had done before nineteen 212 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 3: seventy five. So initially the Tribunal didn't seem to be 213 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: a lot of use in Mardi eyes, and it was 214 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: pretty unadventurous in how it approached things as well. But 215 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: that changed in nineteen eighty three when Edward Taihaku Deaduri, 216 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: who was the first Mary judge of the Mardi Land 217 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: Court and then first Marty to be Chief Judge of 218 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: the Land Court and as such also chair of the 219 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 3: Waikani Tribunal, started changing things even within the restrictive framework 220 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 3: of the nineteen seventy five legislation, simply by taking a bolder, 221 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: bard entirely sound approach to the issues, and also here 222 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: in cases on Marai. So I think in both cases 223 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 3: you might say that the public holiday and the tribunal 224 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: were long term projects. The impact took a good while 225 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: to be realized, and I don't find it implausible that 226 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: on one level, data and perhaps Kirk had an intuition 227 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: that that would be the case, that will do this 228 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: and we'll see what happens. 229 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: And you also mentioned dealings with East Asia. Kirk also 230 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: is given a lot of credit for creating an independent 231 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: foreign policy for New Zealand. How significant were these changes. 232 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: Yes, I think that was a lot of that was 233 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: in the context of the Commonwealth, which over the decade 234 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: of the nineteen sixties, as decolonization and independence in most 235 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 3: of Britain's former colonial territories became the rule, the. 236 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: Commonwealth really shifted from the. 237 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: Old white dominions club Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, 238 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: or they left before they were thrown out, into a 239 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: generally multicultural and multilateral organiz and I think that was 240 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: very much Kirk's vision, and his relationships with Commonwealth leaders 241 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 3: like shaped Mujiburahman in Bangladesh, newly independent Worth Lee Kwan 242 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: Yu and Singapore, and perhaps particularly in Africa with Julius 243 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 3: Neri of Tanzania, with whom Kirk was very close. 244 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 4: I think that was all. 245 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: Part of a realignment of New Zealand's foreign policy, and 246 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: it also I think reflected Kirk's intuitive grasp that at 247 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: is a Pacific nation, and that was also of course 248 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: reflected in his vehement opposition to the testing of nuclear 249 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: weapons by France and the South Pacific. 250 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 5: What we have the opportunity to do now is to 251 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 5: make a new beginning within the Commonwealth on an equal 252 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 5: association of nature. Leakwan, new Prime Minister of Singapore and 253 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 5: the personal friend, remembers the impression he made at the 254 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 5: Commonwealth Prime Minister's Conference in Ottawa. 255 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 7: What came show at. 256 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: The end of EP the honesty of the man, the 257 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: sincerity with which he held his convictions, and that you 258 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: could rely on what he said to you as history 259 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: of position. 260 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: Kirk's death has also been associated for some decades now 261 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: with conspiracy theories that he was perhaps assassinated or killed 262 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: by foreign powers, the CIA being a popular theory. How 263 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: did these theories come to embed themselves in the public consciousness. 264 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: When something dreadful and shocking happens. I guess it's a 265 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: natural tendency to look for sinister courses. 266 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 4: Iever, I can put it like that. 267 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you get the same with the murder of President 268 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: Kennedy in November of sixty three. You get it, to 269 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 3: a lesser extent with the murder of his brother Robert 270 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: and June of sixty eight and yeah, I guess it's 271 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: a way of coping with the fact that sometimes life 272 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 3: is just random and really shitty. I think too, given 273 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 3: that Kirk, like those others I've mentioned, seemed to be 274 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 3: heading in a progressive direction, Yeah, it's perhaps natural also 275 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: to ask oneself, well, who were their enemies? But yeah, 276 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 3: I think there's never so far as will we have 277 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: been a really good case that there was anything more 278 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: than the fact that Norman Kirk's health was not that great. 279 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 3: And as I said, although perhaps on one level he 280 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 3: was in denial, on another level he often seen and 281 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 3: Margaret Hayward's secretary records this, Yeah, I won't make old bones, 282 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 3: he says. So, Yeah, on one level, I think he knew, 283 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: And when you look at what we now know about 284 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 3: his medical history, it doesn't seem really that surprising. Bearing 285 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 3: in mind too that fifty years later, I speak, medical 286 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: care has advanced and he may well have been able 287 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: to deal with things better. 288 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: Labor went on to lose the nineteen seventy five election 289 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: quite badly in the face of the challenge from Robert 290 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: Muldoon and national If Kirk had survived, and I know 291 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: this is gazing into a crystal ball. Do you think 292 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: things would have turned out? 293 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, maartifacturals are very difficult, aren't they. I think the 294 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 3: qualification has to be if Kirk had survived and been 295 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: in good health, Given that, I think he would have 296 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 3: put a much better chance of defeating Muldoon in the 297 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 3: National Party. 298 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 4: This is not to denigrate Bill. 299 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 3: Rowling, who I think was a very good prime minister, 300 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 3: but in terms of image, Muldoon was making all the running. 301 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 3: And then it's also important to remember that the National Party, 302 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 3: of course had a much better funded campaign and labored it. 303 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: That said, I think Kirk would likely have won the 304 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: second term in nineteen seventy five with a much reduced majority. 305 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: I suspect if he had been at the height of 306 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 3: his powers. I like to say that in some respects 307 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 3: I think Kirk and Muldoon were both very dominant personalities 308 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 3: in Parliament, in cabinet and caucus. By its very much 309 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 3: out there. I like to say though, that in some 310 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: ways I think Norman Kirk represented the better angels of 311 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 3: our nature and Muldoon sometimes played to the worst. 312 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Jim. That's it for this episode 313 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 314 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co dot z. 315 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sils and sound 316 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 317 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 318 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.