Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Susanne Ordquist in for Chelsea Daniels and this
Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. The construction industry in New Zealand is struggling,
Speaker 1: with building companies going to the wall as the housing
Speaker 1: market falls away. It also has one of the highest
Speaker 1: rates of workplace injuries of any industry. But there's another
Speaker 1: workplace hazard that we're not talking about. Construction workers are
Speaker 1: six times more likely to die from suicide than from
Speaker 1: an accident at work, and last year that number climbed
Speaker 1: to eighty suspected or confirmed suicides according to one report,
Speaker 1: the highest number on record. Today on the Front Page,
Speaker 1: we are joined by New Zealand Herald Property editor Anne
Speaker 1: Gibson to talk what's going on in the sector and
Speaker 1: how severe the mental health issue is. And these figures
Speaker 1: make for pretty grim reading. What do you make of them?
Speaker 2: Well, it's an utter and real tragedy. This is the
Speaker 2: highest number on record from data which dates back seventeen years,
Speaker 2: according to Mates, which is an organization to prevent such deaths.
Speaker 2: So this week we have World Suicide Prevention Day and
Speaker 2: the cases can take up to five years to be
Speaker 2: confirmed by coronial services, so at the stage some of
Speaker 2: those eighty remain suspected and are yet to be confirmed
Speaker 2: as suicide.
Speaker 1: The data came via Mates in Construction, as you said,
Speaker 1: which aims to reduce the number of lives lost to suicide.
Speaker 1: Why are so many people choosing to end their lives
Speaker 1: in construction this well?
Speaker 2: Mates cited some of the stresses in the sector, and
Speaker 2: they talked about lack of sleep. They mentioned a minimal
Speaker 2: self care time, very high job demands, long hours, and
Speaker 2: very tight time frames on builds, so often the workforce
Speaker 2: is under pressure to complete jobs. And the specific mental
Speaker 2: health vulnerabilities that they noted were particularly amongst the age
Speaker 2: group fifteen to twenty four years of age, and they
Speaker 2: talked about this going across all groups, including the migrant workers,
Speaker 2: the blue collar and the white collar workers. They talked
Speaker 2: about financial instability and poor communication and a site culture
Speaker 2: of old school masculinity. And they also mentioned job and
Speaker 2: security and particularly insufficient mental health support.
Speaker 3: And I didn't know where to get support. I'm a male,
Speaker 3: and the best of times, males don't like to talk
Speaker 3: about the emotions. If I'm able to be standing in
Speaker 3: front of a whole bunch of tough construction workers and
Speaker 3: be at a vulnerable state. And if somebody out there
Speaker 3: in the audience is struggling there in a dark place,
Speaker 3: my narrative helps them to reach out and find support.
Speaker 3: And I'm okay with today.
Speaker 1: And within those figures are a number of people who
Speaker 1: needed time off because they self harmed as well. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us a bit about that?
Speaker 4: He's well.
Speaker 2: I went to Dr Chris Bowden, he's a lecturer at
Speaker 2: Victoria University and he is also the academic director of
Speaker 2: the Mates organization, and he said there was suicidal and
Speaker 2: non suicidal self harm. He put it into two categories,
Speaker 2: and she told me this involves injuries and behaviors, usually
Speaker 2: where the person hurts themselves deliberately, and it's often a
Speaker 2: coping strategy, he said, where they they feel they're overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: So the link between self harm and suicide is when
Speaker 2: people are suicidal, but sometimes they also engage and self harm.
Speaker 2: And I asked him what did he mean by that,
Speaker 2: and he mentioned examples of cutting, burning, and punching a wall.
Speaker 1: So clearly a big problem here, and the figures have
Speaker 1: actually doubled in the last four years. That's during a
Speaker 1: pretty challenging time for the sector, as the stresses of COVID, lockdown,
Speaker 1: inflation and how that's contributed to canceled work added to
Speaker 1: stress for workers.
Speaker 2: Well. Dr Balden said to me that these were all
Speaker 2: quite influential factors in terms of the increasing numbers, and
Speaker 2: he cited COVID and lockdown and also said that most
Speaker 2: construction work stopped during the pandemic was only essential work
Speaker 2: that could continue, and that led to instability and financial
Speaker 2: insecurity for a lot of people in the workforce. And
Speaker 2: he said to me that some workers didn't have guaranteed
Speaker 2: income and despite the fact that the government paid out
Speaker 2: I think about fourteen billion dollars in the wage subsidy
Speaker 2: for employers, he said there were a lot of people
Speaker 2: who work in construction who only actually get paid for
Speaker 2: the hours worked. So he said there was a lot
Speaker 2: of distress in the lower paid laboring workforce. And he
Speaker 2: said these were people who are not on salaries. And
Speaker 2: I remember a particularly shocking event I think earlier last
Speaker 2: year when there were deaths on a building site on
Speaker 2: the Auckland waterfront on one Queen Street, and I think
Speaker 2: three people died there. There was a real tragedy with
Speaker 2: mutter Reed who was only twenty four and he entered
Speaker 2: that site with a gun. So it shows what can
Speaker 2: happen on construction sites.
Speaker 4: Post Mortems on the bodies of three people who died
Speaker 4: in the Auckland CBD shooting yesterday will be completed in
Speaker 4: a matter of days. However, we can tell you that
Speaker 4: both victims were construction workers in their forties. It's being
Speaker 4: reported the twenty four year old Shudent Mature was a
Speaker 4: distraddled employee. You've been sacked the day before.
Speaker 1: You touched on the financial instability or communication, low pay,
Speaker 1: job in security, and insufficient mental health support. How is
Speaker 1: the industry responding to those issues?
Speaker 2: Well, Chris Bowden said, you've got a mix of generations
Speaker 2: on different sites, often a lot of people on the sites.
Speaker 2: And he talked about an old school culture, which he
Speaker 2: said still actually exists. And he said, you've got the
Speaker 2: old school often men, he said, with younger women and
Speaker 2: younger men and also non binary. And he said, you know,
Speaker 2: this younger age group is pushing back against you know,
Speaker 2: the very different attitudes that have existed in the construction
Speaker 2: workplace over the years. And he said young people have
Speaker 2: very different views and perspectives on what masculinity is. So
Speaker 2: he sees quite a change occurring on the site, but
Speaker 2: also quite a sort of a deep seated, embedded know
Speaker 2: older group who have a different view of the world
Speaker 2: themselves and perhaps the people they work with as well.
Speaker 2: How do you fix that problem then, well, he said
Speaker 2: that this is changing. He said that with the arrival
Speaker 2: of more women on sites, and with the arrival of
Speaker 2: younger people, they have different attitudes and they will eventually,
Speaker 2: you know, outnumber the older people. And I think you
Speaker 2: know that MATES sees a lot of hope with the
Speaker 2: work that they are doing, the siticide prevention, all the
Speaker 2: information that they're getting through to the workforce.
Speaker 1: There are concerns about low pay too. Is that an
Speaker 1: easy fix in this current market?
Speaker 2: Well, he said not at all. He said that low
Speaker 2: pay and the lack of security around the jobs mean
Speaker 2: that people can sometimes feel that they're in a very
Speaker 2: un stable environment on a building site. And he said
Speaker 2: he actually quade an example to me of people who
Speaker 2: will be working two jobs in the one day. So
Speaker 2: in the daytime, they'll be you know, working on the
Speaker 2: building site and at night, he said, they'll be working
Speaker 2: as Zuba drivers and he said they're just exhausted. But
Speaker 2: one really sad thing about that is they have no
Speaker 2: time for their families and then last of all, they
Speaker 2: have no time for themselves.
Speaker 5: Well, what made and constructions all about is trying to
Speaker 5: get people to speak up, especially for our specific Islanders
Speaker 5: and Maori. You know, when we're growing up not knowing
Speaker 5: how to tell you on our emotions. Are we shtart
Speaker 5: to chie pretty much is asking for help and you
Speaker 5: get to a point where you don't know what to
Speaker 5: do or say for me personally because I'm not one
Speaker 5: to speak up or it wasn't are you It was hard.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to lie. It was hard, and lucky
Speaker 5: the boy was there to save the day, I guess.
Speaker 1: So not a great time to be in construction and
Speaker 1: it's not been the easiest few years. Are we seeing
Speaker 1: things starting to pack up now?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a huge number of liquidations and insolvency still
Speaker 2: in the construction sector. I see that coming through every
Speaker 2: day in the government's gazette. You know, just a number
Speaker 2: of bankruptcies, receiverships, administrations, liquidations and you know also when
Speaker 2: you do get reports about businesses that cannot cope financially.
Speaker 2: They'll often the liquidators or receivers or insolvency practitioners will
Speaker 2: often refer back to COVID. You know, we sort of
Speaker 2: fill up, we're out of that, but actually the ramifications
Speaker 2: on those businesses are still continuing. And they also quite
Speaker 2: often cite the downturn in the housing market, and they
Speaker 2: talk about the price escalation in terms of labor costs
Speaker 2: and material and actually even getting some of the materials
Speaker 2: sometimes can be very difficult, so the pre sales, you know,
Speaker 2: there's so many pressures. We have a housing shortage, but
Speaker 2: we also have a lot of problems within the building
Speaker 2: sector attempting to resolve that housing shortage by building more residences,
Speaker 2: be it standalone houses or apartments or townhouses. And a
Speaker 2: lot of those companies are under a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1: Yet inflation is falling. How long will the outlook be?
Speaker 3: Tough?
Speaker 2: Is when I talk to people in the sector, they're
Speaker 2: very happy about interest rates coming down and inflation war
Speaker 2: under control, and they do see a lot of signs
Speaker 2: of regeneration in the sector. But in terms of the future,
Speaker 2: I don't have any clever want pass.
Speaker 1: Sorry, you've recently reported on the saga involving Seascape, which
Speaker 1: is meant to be the country's biggest apartment building. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us what's going on there?
Speaker 2: Yes, a fifty six level towel which is already up
Speaker 2: but not yet fully clad and certainly not fitted out inside.
Speaker 2: So this is a dispute between the developer, Shindy Customs,
Speaker 2: and the builder, China Construction. Now, China Construction took Shindy
Speaker 2: Customs to the Building Disputes Tribe and won award for
Speaker 2: thirty three million dollars and also charging orders which would
Speaker 2: actually stop Shandy settling the sales of their apartments. And
Speaker 2: in response to that, the developer has launched high court
Speaker 2: action against China Construction seeking that that decision be set aside.
Speaker 2: So it hasn't yet concluded, but we know that China
Speaker 2: Construction asked all the subcontractors I think there were more
Speaker 2: than twenty to remove everything from the site that they
Speaker 2: had there and also not to return to the site.
Speaker 2: So that occurred in August, and again it's another good
Speaker 2: example of a stress in the sector because there were
Speaker 2: a lot of companies that are owed money by China Construction.
Speaker 2: China Construction says that cannot pay them until the developer
Speaker 2: of this fifty six level one hundred and eighty something
Speaker 2: meter tower actually pays them. So that's a very difficult situation.
Speaker 1: Perhaps some lessons to be learned from this.
Speaker 2: Yes, well watch the space, see what comes out of it.
Speaker 2: There'll be further high court action, we think in the
Speaker 2: next few weeks.
Speaker 1: And issues like this can't be good for the mental
Speaker 1: health of the employers either.
Speaker 2: They're under a lot of pressure, sometimes from non payment
Speaker 2: or sometimes from payments lagging, and that means that it's
Speaker 2: very difficult for them. And sometimes word can filter down
Speaker 2: from the boss class to the worker class that things
Speaker 2: are quite unstable, and that doesn't help anyone's mental health.
Speaker 2: You know, if people fear for their jobs or fear
Speaker 2: for the health of the company that they're working for,
Speaker 2: that leaves them feeling even more uncertain and under more pressure.
Speaker 2: These people are often, you know, the bread winners for
Speaker 2: the family and that pay check is being relied on,
Speaker 2: and if there's some threat hanging over that, it puts
Speaker 2: a lot of stress on the employee, but obviously the
Speaker 2: employer as well.
Speaker 6: If you can help shoulder some of his burden or
Speaker 6: share some of his problems.
Speaker 5: One seen is a tough guy's industry. To take a
Speaker 5: concrete pill and harden up attitude.
Speaker 6: With prevalent, we are six times more likely to lose
Speaker 6: one of the crew to suicide than to a workplace exibit.
Speaker 6: So when you put that in perspective of all health
Speaker 6: and safety program you can see the important.
Speaker 1: And the construction sector sounds like it needs to get
Speaker 1: a handle on sorting out the concerns raised in the survey.
Speaker 1: Would that mean they can attract more talent into the sector.
Speaker 2: That's for sure, and MATE says it's out to change
Speaker 2: this in this tragedy of suicide, and it says it
Speaker 2: has already reached more than eighty five thousand people in
Speaker 2: the sector, and it's got a volunteer network which I
Speaker 2: found an astonishing figure five thousand plus in the sector
Speaker 2: trained in suicide prevention. So it's already getting on with
Speaker 2: things and addressing what is a real tragedy. They've got
Speaker 2: an O eight one hundred number at Mates and Construction.
Speaker 2: So if you have any fears you're under stress or pressure,
Speaker 2: or perhaps a family member or someone you know is suffering,
Speaker 2: the over eight hundred number is eight hundred triple one, three,
Speaker 2: one five. Give them a call. They're they're to help.
Speaker 2: They're doing all they can.
Speaker 1: Some pretty disturbing figures there and in a concerning time
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at inset, here all, dot co, dot endzet. The Front
Speaker 1: Page is produced by Ethan Sells. Patty Fox is a
Speaker 1: sound engineer. I'm Susie Nordquist. Subscribe to the Front Page
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