1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Now we've got issues in the employment court. Are the 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: recurs for employment advocates to be regulated. They're currently allowed 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: to represent clients without actually being lawyers law associations. Katsmine 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: Stewart's well this Catsmin morning to you. 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: Good morning, Mike. 6 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Has this been bubbling away for a while? Is this 7 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: a major issue? 8 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: It's been bubbling away for a long time, Mike, for 9 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: about the past two decades. And yes, it's a major 10 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: issue because employment law advocates are not regulated, so there's 11 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: no requirements for them to have any skills, experience, or qualifications. 12 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: So it is a major issue. 13 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: Why would I, if I was in the employment court 14 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: bring along somebody who doesn't know what they're doing? What 15 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: would be the point of that? 16 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 2: Well, a lot of the time, to be fair, Mike, 17 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 2: people don't actually realize the distinction between advocates and lawyers. 18 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: So lay people might, for example, google employment law expert 19 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: or employment law specialist and these names come up, and 20 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: they understandably think that they're dealing with lawyers. And that 21 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: has been an issue of confusion for a long time, 22 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: which is a consumer protection angle, So people might not understand. 23 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: Don't you have to better yourself? Is not a lawyer 24 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: or something like you realize I'm not a lawyer, I 25 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: am whatever or not. 26 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: There's no such requirement. No, So this leads to a 27 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: lot of misunderstanding in the public and a lot of confusion, 28 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: and it adds to a lot of distress that we 29 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: see by clients who sometimes other lawyers pick up the 30 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: files and clients are confused and upset and distress. So 31 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: it's very unfortunate because people are often in vulnerable situations 32 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: to start with and feeling anxious, and this adds to 33 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: their distress. So that's one issue. Look, look, I'm not 34 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: going to say none of them are any good, no, 35 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 2: but some of them are highly problematic. I'm not going 36 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: to tar all advocates with one brush. Some of them 37 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: are behaving completely appropriately, but there are enough of enough 38 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: of them who aren't to make this a very real problem. 39 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: And as we've seen from the latest case, the employment 40 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: court described the advocates behavior as unprofessional and abusive. And 41 00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: this is the tip of the iceberg. 42 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: Marc, how much if I ended up in court, how 43 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: much of it's about the law as opposed to the 44 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: nuance and subtlety and the emotion of the circumstances in 45 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: which I have found myself. 46 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 2: Well, it's largely about the law, and it's also about 47 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: the processes that you know how to follow. So in 48 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: court there are quite formal protocols and you need to 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: be aware of procedures like discovery or intelocatory applications, or 50 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: evidence or cross examination. So if you're represented by someone 51 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: who isn't aware of all of those things and doesn't 52 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: have the skills, then you know you are certainly on 53 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: the back foot. I would say, if you don't have 54 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: a lawyer who understands all those things, and there can 55 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: be a lot of harm done. So yes, so I 56 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: would certainly advocate strongly for the fact that that lawyers 57 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 2: have those knowledge, you know, that knowledge and experience, and 58 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: people who represent them without that knowledge and experience would 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: be at a disadvantage. 60 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: Exactly, all right, Gus, I appreciate your side. Catherine Stewart, 61 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: the Law Association's Employment Law Committee. Convenient for more from 62 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news Talks at 63 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: b from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.