WEBVTT - 'Not that loyal': Why users abandon once-dominant platforms like Skype, MySpace

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<v Speaker 1>Gilda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. After twenty

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<v Speaker 2>two years, video calling platform Skype is shutting down. After

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<v Speaker 2>its inception, to Skype became a verb and it was

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<v Speaker 2>the go to service for many years, that is until

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<v Speaker 2>COVID nineteen and Zoom took over. So how has something

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<v Speaker 2>once thought to be so innovative become so obsolete? Who

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<v Speaker 2>decides what apps and sites we migrate to? And looking

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<v Speaker 2>to the future, what could be the next big bang

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<v Speaker 2>or bust? Today on the front Page, Victoria University of

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<v Speaker 2>Wellington Professor of Information Systems Alex Richter joins us to

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<v Speaker 2>discuss the fickle world of tech.

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<v Speaker 3>Alex.

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<v Speaker 2>Skype amassed more than three hundred million monthly users at

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<v Speaker 2>its peak. Many of us grew up knowing that to

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<v Speaker 2>video call someone was to skype someone. Where in the

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<v Speaker 2>world did it all go wrong?

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of this is because of lost

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity during COVID, where Skype basically competed with Zoom and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe also a bit with teams. And the big advantage

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<v Speaker 1>that assume had was that it was very simple to you,

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<v Speaker 1>so Skype had actually a very good opportunity at the infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 1>the user base. As you say, it was actually a

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<v Speaker 1>synonym for even like video conferencing. But Zoom had this instant,

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<v Speaker 1>frictionless success, whereas the Skype interface was increasingly complex from

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<v Speaker 1>a user perspective, especially during COVID. That's when this simplicity

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<v Speaker 1>basically one. Yeah, millions of users over for soon, and Skype,

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<v Speaker 1>which was already owned by Microsoft them at some point,

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<v Speaker 1>was in the eyes, I guess of Microsoft no longer

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<v Speaker 1>that successful.

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<v Speaker 2>I can think of a lot of platforms and applications

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<v Speaker 2>that were once part of our daily lives and they've

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<v Speaker 2>just faded into the background almost. I'm thinking of like

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<v Speaker 2>MySpace being one of them, overtaken by Facebook, then Instagram.

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<v Speaker 2>How do we just all of a sudden decide to

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<v Speaker 2>just stop using one and move to another.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in the case of MySpace is actually also very interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>I would say it's another design principle. So for Skype,

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<v Speaker 1>it was in my eyes it was simplicity. For my Space,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say it was the activity streams that they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have. So MySpace it let users personalize their pages

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<v Speaker 1>endlessly and had a lot of cool features but they

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<v Speaker 1>were really slow to adopt this activity streamed at Facebook,

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<v Speaker 1>Head and Twitter. This is a core social feature of

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<v Speaker 1>was for many users. They were there because they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to connect with others. They wanted to have this constant

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<v Speaker 1>stree of awareness what's going on for others. And while

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<v Speaker 1>it turns out users, especially on these platforms are not

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<v Speaker 1>dead loyal, they want easy In both cases, they want

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<v Speaker 1>easy access, easy anti creations, and basically the interfaces that

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<v Speaker 1>work for them. So in both cases users decided to

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<v Speaker 1>move on.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Another one that I always think of is BlackBerry Messenger.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a huge for a moment in time. Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I had several Blackberries and still have fond memories of them,

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<v Speaker 2>even though I wasn't a business woman in the mid

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<v Speaker 2>two thousands, I was in high school and of course

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<v Speaker 2>Microsoft Messenger or MSN Messenger was a huge part of

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<v Speaker 2>everyone's adolescence and.

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<v Speaker 5>Bebo as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Why do you think some of these I mean, why

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<v Speaker 2>don't they stick around?

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<v Speaker 1>I think what all these the example show is that

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<v Speaker 1>platform dominance doesn't always last. Right today we think of

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<v Speaker 1>these giants and we think, oh, well, they will be

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<v Speaker 1>there in the future. But yeah, BlackBerry is a great example,

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<v Speaker 1>Nokia AOL has some really big names at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>At some point a myths to evolve and grow with

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<v Speaker 1>the expectations of their users, and I think what the

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<v Speaker 1>users were afterward then often not so much features, but

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<v Speaker 1>the whole experience. And in the case of BlackBerry, I

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<v Speaker 1>think that may have been one of the reasons. And

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<v Speaker 1>BlackBerry was also a business tool, so there may have

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<v Speaker 1>been other reasons as well. In the Skype and MySpace case,

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<v Speaker 1>it was a lot of private users who basically decided

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<v Speaker 1>the other platforms had what they needed.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess our relationship and growing immediacy as a society

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<v Speaker 2>has had to contribute to us cycling through this tech quicker, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I read somewhere this morning that Netflix took

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<v Speaker 2>three and a half years to reach a million users,

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<v Speaker 2>while the likes of Threads, which was Instagram's answer to Twitter,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got two million users in just two hours. That

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't necessarily mean longevity nowadays, does it?

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<v Speaker 5>Though?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 1>I agree sometimes these are dynamic developments, but exactly a

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<v Speaker 1>longevity relates more to into still also trying to understand

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<v Speaker 1>what directions could we grow and what do the users want?

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<v Speaker 1>And I see this as a in a way a

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<v Speaker 1>co evolution where the platforms try to understand the users,

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<v Speaker 1>but then the users over time may also adjust the

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<v Speaker 1>way they're they're using the tools, even just the way

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<v Speaker 1>they're doing things. So as long as as a platform

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<v Speaker 1>I can evolve together with the users, then it should work.

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<v Speaker 1>But how this evolution goes that's quite hard to predict,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think there were a lot of smart people

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<v Speaker 1>at these companies that we discussed that still didn't weren't

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<v Speaker 1>able to figure out what way the users wanted to grow.

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<v Speaker 3>They only gave Google Glass to developers. Initially you could

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<v Speaker 3>buy them. It was about twelve hundred pounds, and it

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<v Speaker 3>was only on sale to the developer community, who were

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<v Speaker 3>the best will in the world. Probably aren't supermodels generally,

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<v Speaker 3>and so the user imagery was problematic. And that's by

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<v Speaker 3>the way, going to be a problem with the Apple

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<v Speaker 3>Vision Pro because the only people who'll use an Apple

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<v Speaker 3>Vision Pro in public are going to be weirdos.

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<v Speaker 2>There are also some things that I think that never

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<v Speaker 2>really took off at all. I'm thinking like virtual reality

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't really taken off yet, despite everyone talking about it

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<v Speaker 2>and trying to make it a thing. So why aren't

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<v Speaker 2>we all wearing goggles or going to work in a

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<v Speaker 2>virtual workspace or something.

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<v Speaker 1>So when we look at these design prince, we just dead.

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<v Speaker 1>We discuss I mean, against simplicity. I think is a

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<v Speaker 1>good one here, because it doesn't seem too simple to

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<v Speaker 1>use these goggles in some situations. Right, they're too finicky,

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<v Speaker 1>it takes too long and so on, so the effort

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<v Speaker 1>is quite high. And on the other side, their value

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<v Speaker 1>is not always that clear. And I think indeed there's

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of examples where technologies never took off or

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<v Speaker 1>took a long time because the users were just not

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<v Speaker 1>to sure how to really, yeah, how to use them

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<v Speaker 1>in the most beneficial ways.

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<v Speaker 5>And in other cases it worked.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, this is in a way relates and again

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<v Speaker 1>also a bit too well, what do the users, how

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<v Speaker 1>do they perceive these tools fitting in how they work

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<v Speaker 1>or how they do things in their daily lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And I suppose something might need to be embraced by

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<v Speaker 2>the business world to become successful, do you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>BlackBerry messenger?

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, I think the case of BlackBerry.

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<v Speaker 1>I never had one, but from what I remember is

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<v Speaker 1>it was it was an ill using having a BlackBerry

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<v Speaker 1>and all of a sudden having this capability to text

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<v Speaker 1>from a mobile a bit different from compared to phones before.

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<v Speaker 1>But then the iPhone, especially in smartphones the other smartphones

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<v Speaker 1>that then came a bit later, was a major disruption

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<v Speaker 1>because all of a sudden, there was not just the

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<v Speaker 1>phone right, there was this device that was so generative

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<v Speaker 1>or malible. It could do so many things. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think what was surprising in the business world at the

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<v Speaker 1>time was that iPhone originally was rather seen as a

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<v Speaker 1>private device, but many organizations decided, yeah, okay, our managers

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<v Speaker 1>can have iPhones too. And I think that I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>saying that the iPhone alone killed the BlackBerry, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think it came as a surprise that then many businesses

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<v Speaker 1>moved on from the BlackBerry to smartphones like the iPhone

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<v Speaker 1>or and rid phones.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you think how relationship and reliance on technology

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<v Speaker 2>has adapted over time. Has it become a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a hindrance or a major help?

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<v Speaker 5>I think it is both.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's fantastic cases how these devices make our

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<v Speaker 1>lives easier. At the same time, the more we integrate

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<v Speaker 1>them in our lives and in a way depend on them,

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<v Speaker 1>or fear we depend on them, the more negative effects

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<v Speaker 1>we also see, and starting with kids and how they

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<v Speaker 1>use these devices at school, often in really detrimental ways,

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<v Speaker 1>things that you and I guess didn't experience, but that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of young children have to figure out nowadays,

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<v Speaker 1>and also as adults. I mean, so from that perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess it's a balanced views, acknowledging the potential benefits

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<v Speaker 1>but also being aware of all the potential detrimental effects

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<v Speaker 1>and especially important for AI that has taken a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of our private lives and on our business lives by

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<v Speaker 1>storm in just the last couple of years. And again

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<v Speaker 1>then the risks that come with this, various biases and

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<v Speaker 1>problems need to be acknowledged at the same time. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and we need to react to that as well.

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<v Speaker 2>When we're talking about the next big thing, it has

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<v Speaker 2>to have something to do with AI, right. We at

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<v Speaker 2>the point where chat GPT has evolved beyond just being

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<v Speaker 2>a fun trend of making some AI images, sending to

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<v Speaker 2>your friends, making up a little itinerary. I mean, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the next step for AI, especially in I guess, both

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<v Speaker 2>in personal and business life.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, I would say the effects are already

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<v Speaker 1>really there for many freelancers, for example, in creative spaces

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<v Speaker 1>is where AI basically has taken over or in other professions.

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<v Speaker 1>So the question here is really like, how do we

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<v Speaker 1>We cannot really shut it out, but how can we

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<v Speaker 1>react to the fact that AI is all of a

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<v Speaker 1>sudden there and is taking over some tasks and parts

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<v Speaker 1>of of of job roles. So I think that this

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<v Speaker 1>is in some way happened overnight, and and businesses and

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<v Speaker 1>especially also policymakers around the globe bar having trouble catching

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<v Speaker 1>catching up in the private life. I guess it's similar

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<v Speaker 1>to uh to what I said about social media before.

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<v Speaker 1>I see some co evolution in a way we we

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<v Speaker 1>change our our practices, our habits to some extent based

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<v Speaker 1>on what how AI makes our lives easier. And as

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<v Speaker 1>as long as it just makes it easier and we

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<v Speaker 1>don't don't change things in ways that are then depremental

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<v Speaker 1>to our ourselves or to others, then I think, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we can see the positive effects. But again there's I

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<v Speaker 1>think what is very important in the space is AI literacy,

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<v Speaker 1>making informed decisions about AI, being aware of what AI

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<v Speaker 1>is actually able to do and where we need to

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<v Speaker 1>be really careful using it, and not being too too

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<v Speaker 1>trusting in its capabilities. So from that perspective, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 1>what is happening right now is already is a really

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<v Speaker 1>big thing, and the question is how do we how

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<v Speaker 1>do we react, Like, how how can we make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that the ethics that we have, that the values that

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<v Speaker 1>we have are not going overboard now?

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<v Speaker 6>And what about this internet thing?

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<v Speaker 5>Do you do you know anything about that?

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<v Speaker 4>Sure?

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<v Speaker 5>What the hell is that? Exactly?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, it's it's become a place where people are publishing information,

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<v Speaker 4>so everybody can have their own homepage. Companies are there

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<v Speaker 4>the latest information. It's wild, what's going on? You can

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<v Speaker 4>send electronic mail to people. It is the big new things.

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<v Speaker 6>A couple of months ago, there was like a big

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<v Speaker 6>breakthrough announcement that on the internet or on some computer

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<v Speaker 6>deal they were going to broadcast a baseball game. You

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<v Speaker 6>could listen to a baseball game on your computer. And

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<v Speaker 6>I just thought to myself, does radio ring a bell?

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<v Speaker 2>And how can we make sure that AI, the snowball

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<v Speaker 2>of it doesn't get away from us kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet did. Because I know that there's some legislation

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<v Speaker 2>there that's still trying to catch up to the World

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<v Speaker 2>Wide web. So in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Business lives, in a way it's a little bit easier

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<v Speaker 1>because you can establish guard race and policy saying look,

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<v Speaker 1>you can do this and that's okay, but this is

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<v Speaker 1>where it ends. This is a boundary look that we're

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<v Speaker 1>not crossing, and as the leadership of an organization can

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<v Speaker 1>say that. I mean there's a trade off because some

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<v Speaker 1>may feel that they're missing out if they're not using

0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.320
<v Speaker 1>more of the AI capabilities. But I guess it's about

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.520
<v Speaker 1>managing risks there and I think it's a very valid

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.640
<v Speaker 1>approach to assess the risk first and not trying to

0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 1>catch up too fast. On a societal level, this is

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 1>a bit more tricky. I think in a way we

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.480
<v Speaker 1>learned a little bit from the case of social media,

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.320
<v Speaker 1>where legislation indeed has taken in many countries forever to

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>actually acknowledge the risks and the dangers of social media

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 1>and to catch up with it. I mean, the social

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:50.160
<v Speaker 1>media band for children in Australia comes now literally decays

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 1>after young people have started using it. So in the

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>case of it, I think there's more awareness and there's

0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 1>also louder voices that say, look, we need to we

0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:07.760
<v Speaker 1>need to implement guardrails, policies, laws also in private life,

0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.120
<v Speaker 1>and and actually also we need to make some of

0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 1>these guard rails mandatory for the platform providers. I would

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.480
<v Speaker 1>say policy makers have learned from the past to some

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:25.160
<v Speaker 1>extent and try to be quicker with their with their implementations.

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.720
<v Speaker 1>There As one example, I would like to mention social companions.

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:36.040
<v Speaker 1>So there's various platforms where you can have chat with

0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:41.200
<v Speaker 1>with avatars literally having virtual relationships with the I and

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 1>all that, and millions of users actually trust AI quite

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot to an extent where we had global cases

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:53.080
<v Speaker 1>in the US in Australia where people took their lives

0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 1>based on advice from a eye. So this is obviously

0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.880
<v Speaker 1>this has gone way too far. This is where then

0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 1>legislation has step in and say, okay, like we need

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 1>to make sure that I doesn't give these advices and

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 1>basically that there models are only wrote out and can

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.480
<v Speaker 1>be used by the public if they're safe.

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's really interesting actually because I read somewhere the

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.600
<v Speaker 2>other day that people have been flocking to AI and

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.040
<v Speaker 2>getting mental health advice instead of actually paying the money

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 2>to go see a psychologist or a counselor, and the

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.520
<v Speaker 2>waiting lists for those are huge and there I've seen

0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.920
<v Speaker 2>a couple of psychologists on TikTok warning people saying, no,

0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 2>this is not a solution. And I think there needs

0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:35.320
<v Speaker 2>to be a little bit more, like you said, some

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 2>literacy around what AI actually is and the advice that

0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it gives. It is only what you feed it, right.

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, I mean I think they are as you say,

0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:51.640
<v Speaker 1>we have a growing need for mental support, I would

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:59.040
<v Speaker 1>say across our societies and not enough psychologists, coaches and

0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.840
<v Speaker 1>so on. And I think AI can help to some extent,

0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.960
<v Speaker 1>but only in a safe space. There have been studies

0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 1>that have shown that it is highly effective, and I

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:15.959
<v Speaker 1>have examples also in my network that where experts and

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 1>psychologists were quite impressed what AI can actually do. But

0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.320
<v Speaker 1>just having a one positive example or a couple of

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.920
<v Speaker 1>nice anecdotes doesn't mean it's safe to use. Somebody who

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 1>potentially uses it needs to be very aware what AI

0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 1>can do and cannot do. But also we need to

0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.200
<v Speaker 1>make sure that the models go only that far.

0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And finally, what do you think the tech world or

0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.439
<v Speaker 2>the business world as a whole can learn from the

0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.160
<v Speaker 2>downfall of apps like Skype.

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 1>I think that many platforms that have been successful over

0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:57.840
<v Speaker 1>the last years, are very heavily uses centric. They're very

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.160
<v Speaker 1>close to their users, and they're really understand and what

0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.320
<v Speaker 1>the users want, and they're quick to react. What we

0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 1>can learn is that there's not a lot of tech loyalty,

0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 1>so users will move on if they don't get the

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 1>experience anymore that they want. So it's really for a platform,

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.880
<v Speaker 1>it's really important to understand what the users want. At

0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.119
<v Speaker 1>the same time, like the case of social media, also

0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.760
<v Speaker 1>shows that user interests and platform interests are not always aligned, right.

0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.639
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we know that social media platforms really thrive

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:39.120
<v Speaker 1>with highly emotional for example, inflammatory posts and comments, so

0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 1>because they want a high user engagement, they.

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 5>Will encourage that.

0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 1>So here we actually also then need policies and laws

0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:55.040
<v Speaker 1>making sure that this yard doesn't further increase or it's

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 1>all contained in a way. So basically that we have

0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:06.000
<v Speaker 1>really key yeah, competing interests. I think in the long run,

0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.560
<v Speaker 1>it would be good to see more and more platforms

0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:14.320
<v Speaker 1>taking right decisions, not being after the on the short run,

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 1>after just the money, but also like after sustainable growth

0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.080
<v Speaker 1>that also is in the interest of the users in

0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.399
<v Speaker 1>terms of yeah, literally mental well being.

0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us, Alex.

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:27.480
<v Speaker 5>Thank you, Chelsea.

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.600
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.440
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 2>at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.240
<v Speaker 2>produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:50.080
<v Speaker 2>our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front

0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and

0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.400
<v Speaker 2>tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.