1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: With us as Nikola willis the Finance Minster High Nikola, Hi, Heather, now, 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: what have you found out about the why targeted co 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: governance situation? 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 2: I found out that this is very much an Auckland 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: Council lead issue. DOC is only party to the discussions 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: at all because it administers less than one percent of 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: the way TACKERI ranges. So Auckland Council is leading this consultation. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: Our position as the National Party is clear and is 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: the government. We don't support co governance of public services 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: and we would have significant concerns with any proposal that 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 2: saw public access to public land restricted without a very 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: good reason, which would be something like closing the tracks 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: for safety. 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: Okay, do you think this is co governance? 15 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: Well, I've seen a range of views on that from councilors, 16 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: most of whom are saying no, it's not co governance. 17 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: Ownership and decision making stays with the local boards and 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: the council. But I think you need to get Auckland 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: Council on your show to ask them that question. Where 20 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: we Wayne Brown and all of this. 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a very good point. We'll talk to them. 22 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: May We spoke to Richard Hill's who is the counselor 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: leading this? He says, it's not co governance, but they 24 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: can at Auckland Council delegate the decision making to this committee, 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: which then makes it co governance, doesn't it. 26 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: Well, are they intending to do that because I don't 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: understand that that's what they've consulted on. And my view 28 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: would be that they should be listening to the feedback 29 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: they get from rate payers. 30 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: It sounds to me like you're telling them to tie how. 31 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: Here, Well, the act the law is clear. It is 32 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: a local act, so it requires the Auckland Council to 33 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: make sure it's got good engagement and consultation with EWI. 34 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: But then how they administer that is a matter for 35 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: the council, and I think they should be very clear 36 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: with their ratepayers about what they're doing and why they're 37 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: doing it. 38 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: Okay, So would you be happy if what happens because 39 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: the EWI wants it, is that there is restriction About 40 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: thirty five percent of the park is restricted to public 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: access and something like thirteen to fourteen percent of the 42 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: tracks are shut down. 43 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: Well, look, as I said, I'd be pretty concerned with 44 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: any proposal that saw public access to public land restricted 45 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: without a very good reason. And I think that I 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: would not be alone in having that view, and I'd 47 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: suggest that many rate payers would have that view. So 48 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 2: it is for the Auckland Council to explain. 49 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: Okay, if you didn't like what you saw, you could 50 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: pass a law and stop it, would you. 51 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: There is some complexity there because the Heritage Area Act 52 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: under which the Council is acting is a local act, 53 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: so any change to the legislation actually has to come 54 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: from Auckland Council in the first instance. 55 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: So that means that so central government legislation can only 56 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: be changed by the local government body at effects. 57 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: Where it's a local act and Auckland Council the admin 58 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: are the administering agency for that act. So if we 59 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: were to change the specific legislation, that would have to 60 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: come from Auckland Council. Let me be clear, there's no 61 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: requirement in the legislation for co governance. There's no requirement 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: in the legislation for a committee of the sort that 63 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: the Council is proposing. This is very much an initiative 64 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: from Auckland Council that's not required by law. So as 65 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: I say, it's up to Auckland Council to answer why 66 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 2: they're going about it in this manner? 67 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: Okay, And so what do you think Wayne Brown has 68 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: got his fingers in this one. 69 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: I don't know whether he does it all, but I 70 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: just think that to understand why they're doing it, what 71 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: it means, what the implications are, he's the better person 72 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: to be talking to than me. Point because as you 73 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: learned last week, the first time it came across my 74 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: desk was half now before your show. 75 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: Well, we'll take your advice and we might get him 76 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: on now on this business with ACC. And this is 77 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: very similarly themed. Right, Why did Scott Simpson change his 78 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: mind on ACC's race targeting on Thursday? 79 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 2: Because the government has a very clear Cabinet circular which 80 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: applies to all Crown Agents that says that service delivery 81 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: should be based on need and not race. And in 82 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: this instance he has gone back to ACC and said 83 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: could you please have another look at your proposed tender 84 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: because it appears that it has just gone straight to 85 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: targeting on race rather than looking at what actually are 86 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: the issues here. So for example, this is about people 87 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: being safe and manufacturing sites. It might just be that 88 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: some jobs are more dangerous than others. So why are 89 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: you leaping to race as the target in this tender. 90 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: I understand ACC have now put that tender on hold 91 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 2: and are having another look at it. 92 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he on Thursday he initially backed it. Didn't he. 93 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: I think in the first instance he respected the operational 94 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: independence of ACC, but that operational independence acts not extend. 95 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you what I said. It was a 96 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: written statement in newsroom, and he said the tender aligns 97 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: with the government's desire to support New Zealanders based on 98 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: evidence of need. Knowing it was race based, he still 99 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: backed it. 100 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: Well, look, I'm not going to put words in Scott's mouth. 101 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 2: What I think is happening here is the right thing. 102 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: Which the tender has been put on pause. ACC have 103 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: been asked to ensure that they are complying with Cabinet's 104 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: direction and to set out their evidence. 105 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: They are now. 106 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: Now. 107 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: I respect the fact that every time this is raised 108 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: with the government, your government, you guys change it and 109 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: you put the kibosh on it. But it worries me 110 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: that it takes some sunlight on it to get to 111 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: this point. You're not just behind the scenes waving this 112 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: stuff through as long as we don't know about it, are. 113 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: You no, Because that's the reason we did that cabinet directive, 114 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 2: so that every agency knows before you try this stuff on, 115 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,559 Speaker 2: you need to make sure you're complying with the rules. 116 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: And actually there are many many cases that probably would 117 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: have happened if it went for that circular. And whenever 118 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: it is believe and it'sident like this, it seems a 119 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: very clear message to the rest of the public service. 120 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 2: The stuff isn't on here, okay. But now that the 121 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: government's changed and we have a different set of rules, 122 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: I would. 123 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Believe that, and I would be fine with that, and 124 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: I would be able to blame the public servants in 125 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: this one. Except Scott knew about it. And Scott was like, nah, 126 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: it's okay by me. So why is your own minister 127 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: saying it's okay. 128 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: To be fair here that, as you know, he's our 129 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: newest minister. He wasn't there at the time we had 130 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: on that circular. Well, look, he's not a. 131 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: Newbe and you know that, Nikoler, he's not a newbie. 132 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: Well, he is new to the ministry and that is 133 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: that is a fact. 134 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: Wasn't he in the last National government. 135 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: He's he only was made a minister a few months 136 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: ago on this government. 137 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: Well, you might do you need to send out a 138 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: directive to your ministers as well. 139 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 2: Well, it's always my expectation that people be complying with 140 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: cabinet directives. Of course, I won't be sending out that 141 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: memo that goes without being said. 142 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: Hey, okay, now on R and Z because this thing's 143 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: blown up because Winston threatened to defund them and blah 144 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: blah blah, are you going to cut their budget? 145 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 2: All funding decisions are announced as part of the budget, 146 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: and I am not ruling anything or in or out 147 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: between now and budget day because that game gets pretty 148 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: boring pretty quickly. 149 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: This is true, But is all of their money safe? 150 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: As I've said, I'm not going to be making any 151 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: funding decisions until we announced them at the budget. 152 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, in that case, it's pointless me asking you 153 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: about taxing charities, is it. 154 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: No, it's not either, because as you know, it was 155 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: my intention that we would make any changes to charity 156 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: tax law at the budget. But I won't be making 157 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: changes at the budget. And I can confirm that because 158 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: we are continuing work in this area. We had a 159 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: short sharp consultation with the charity sector or the nine 160 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: hundred submissions, and that's thrown up two key things. The 161 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: first is that the potential revenue that the government would 162 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: get from this is pretty small. Some people were throwing 163 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: numbers around billions of dollars. It's more like, at the 164 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: most fifty million dollars a year. So it's not essential 165 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: to our budget that we hurry these changes through. And 166 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: what officials have advised is that the consultation has uncovered 167 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: a lot of complexity about denissions and rules and how 168 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: charities would react in practice. So we want to get 169 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: it completely right, so I'll be taking further advice on it. 170 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: My goal is to make sure the system's fair and 171 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: it has high integrity. So I won't be making changes 172 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: at the budget because we simply haven't landed exactly what 173 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: the policy changes should look like. 174 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: Now, why is it so small? Why is it only 175 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars a year? Because I mean that surprises 176 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: me given the size of just pack Sanitarium by itself. 177 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's it the most. So if you take 178 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: that example of sanitarium, if we were to say we're 179 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: now not exempting your business from tax, what they could 180 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: do is instead make that make their profits a donation 181 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: back to the Seventh day Adventist Church, their parent and 182 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: get around them and that yet well, yeah, that's right, 183 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 2: they'd get around it, and so they wouldn't in fact 184 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: be paying any more tax. And there are many effects 185 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: like that that occur. As you appreciate, tax law is 186 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: pretty complex. There are all these sorts of loopholes and 187 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: ways through it. How do you do fine? What is 188 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: business related to the charity and what isn't? How do 189 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: you ensure that you're not just encouraging people to put 190 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: funding into passive funds? So there's all sorts of questions 191 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: that the consultation has thrown up. Want to work through 192 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: it carefully, very committed to making sure we've got a 193 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: fair system with high integrity. We will be making changes 194 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: in the space, but I don't want to rush it 195 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: and get it wrong. 196 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: All right, Nicholas, thank you for telling us that Nicola 197 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: willis the finance Minster. Better that we find out now 198 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: rather than on budget day. For more from Heather Duplessy, 199 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: Allen Drive, listen live to news talks. It'd be from 200 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.