1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Chinese premiere Lee Chiung has arrived in the country to 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: pomp and ceremony, including a gun salute in Wellington. He's 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: met with the Prime Minister. He loved dinner with the 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Prime Minister tonight. His visit has coincided with the release 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of a new documentary about Chinese interference and espionage in 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: New Zealand, including suggestions that former National MPs Young Young 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: was a Chinese spy. Andrew Little is a former minister 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: responsible for the GCSPN is with us. Now, hey, Andrew 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: was that National MP A spy. 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: Well, I can't comment on any of those sorts of 11 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: things that if has track record as well known, he 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: was associated with a PLA before he came to New Zealand. 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: He educated some of their senior officers and then he 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: came out here. But look, the reality is we know 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: that China and it's a relationship with this diaspora community 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: is a very often a very intense one. We're no 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: different to every other country where there is a signal 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: again Chinese diaspora. The Communist Party, through its various machines 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: and organs and organizations, stays in close contact with a 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 2: lot of those people. 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: If he was a spy, would you, as the Minister 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: for the spies, be told that he was a spy. 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: The Minister gets told of operations that the agencies are doing. 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: Don't necessarily get told of individuals who might be the 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: subject of operations. But if there is a risk, for example, 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: to Parliament or to the beehive or something like that, 27 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: then the Minister would be advised of that. 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: This documentary claims that China's foreign interference is corroding our democracy? 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: Is it. 30 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: If you think that the way China conducts it's nothing 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 2: much as foreign relations more it's a relationship with his 32 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: diaspea community. We're here, for example, in New Zealand a 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: very strong Chinese media, a lot of it is very 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: closely l I two and associated with media organizations in 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: Beijing and indeed to the Chinese Communist Party, and that 36 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: is the Chinese media or New Zealand is the principal 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: source of information to a lot of the Chinese diaspora here, 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: often to the exclusion of local New Zealand media. So 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: it is very influential. And if the principal line coming 40 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: in that media is the line coming out of Beijing, 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: then that's going to have an impact on the way 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: people living here are going to think about and make 43 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: decisions about what's happening here. 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: Stuff which is behind this documentary claims that the documentary 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: is going to ramp up tensions, Will it or is 46 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: this exactly the kind of thing that the Chinese actually expect. 47 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: Us to do. I don't know what they expect. That 48 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: the Chinese are very gay, very brittle about criticism, whether not, 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: of course attendant, I don't know. I think the most 50 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: important thing is that we ought to have a good conversation, 51 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: not just about China. There are other countries who engage 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 2: in foreign interference, including in New Zealand, and it's important 53 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: that we go into international relationship or foreign relationships with 54 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: other countries with our eyes wide open. And this is 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: about making sure that we're all. 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: Listen Andrew without naming names right set aside there into 57 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: influence on their own diaspora, and without naming names, are 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese trying to interfere with our democracy at all? 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: The Chinese. The way the Chinese conduct themselves in most 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: countries is to make sure that when governments of the 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: day are making decisions that bear upon Chinese interests, that 62 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: those decisions are the most favorable to or in the 63 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: best interest software that does happen. 64 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: Okay, Andrew, thank you, I appreciate your time. As always, 65 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: it's Andrew Little, former minister responsible for the SIS and 66 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: the GCSB. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.