Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkins and I'm Louise Area and this
Speaker 1: is season four of our New Zealand HEI podcast Little
Speaker 1: Things Good to have you with us, And this podcast
Speaker 1: we talk to experts and find out all the little
Speaker 1: things you need to know to improve all areas of
Speaker 1: your life. And today we're going to cover off our
Speaker 1: mental and physical health and how to have a good
Speaker 1: laugh or possibly cry as we try and motivate you
Speaker 1: to hit a trail.
Speaker 2: So if you're at all interested in putting on some
Speaker 2: trainers and hitting out the door for a walk or run,
Speaker 2: or better still doing it on a trail, or you're
Speaker 2: already enjoying the benefits of running but you want to
Speaker 2: step it up and tackle on an event, than this
Speaker 2: podcast is for you.
Speaker 1: Those of you who have been following us since season one,
Speaker 1: you'll know that lou and I met when are now
Speaker 1: eighteen year olds where it can do together. Our joint
Speaker 1: love of exercise in the outdoors is only one of
Speaker 1: the reasons we're friends. But it sure has taken us
Speaker 1: on some pretty crazy adventures, isn't it Sometimes in that
Speaker 1: excellent role direction, Yeah, it's totally very much so. I
Speaker 1: mean we've always been really active over the years, Loo
Speaker 1: We've done boot camps and boxing and training. We've kind
Speaker 1: of tried everything, haven't we. We've sort of been there
Speaker 1: and done that. But then things kind of changed a
Speaker 1: little bit when you came up with this brilliant idea
Speaker 1: to walk a hundred k's for the ox Fan. Yeah,
Speaker 1: was the odd span one hundred kilometer walk.
Speaker 2: It really didn't seem as long in my head as
Speaker 2: it was when we did it.
Speaker 1: We had no idea what we're doing when we decided
Speaker 1: to do it, which it was amazing. It was an
Speaker 1: amazing adventure. But the one thing that we realized we
Speaker 1: got from it was that we'd both grown up enjoying
Speaker 1: the outdoors, but lives are busy, we're working, we've got
Speaker 1: young kids. We hadn't really kind of been out there much,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, we were spending days, literally
Speaker 1: days walking tens of yeah and a lot of kilometers,
Speaker 1: and we were like, this is amazing, this is fantastic,
Speaker 1: this is just we just loved it. But then we
Speaker 1: both were like, when it was over, we don't really
Speaker 1: have the time to be walking all day in the bush.
Speaker 1: And then you came up with your second grade idea.
Speaker 1: You've had more than two ideas, but within this context,
Speaker 1: and you went, hey, there's this thing called trial running.
Speaker 1: We should we should give it a go. But we
Speaker 1: didn't actually really know that much about it.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: And we didn't actually realize when we entered our first
Speaker 1: half marathon event. I think it was about what was
Speaker 1: it right? Yeah, it was twenty one. Yeah, it would hill,
Speaker 1: what it would entail.
Speaker 2: And how different it is to running running totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so much more that you know, the terrain
Speaker 1: is completely different, so it's more exhausting for the body,
Speaker 1: but also you're just going up and down all the time.
Speaker 1: I think the third that would hill. I think we
Speaker 1: came in third and fourth to last. I think there
Speaker 1: were a couple of people behind us and they were
Speaker 1: about seventy.
Speaker 2: Five years old.
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we turned up and I were
Speaker 1: literally we were packing up these up there event was over,
Speaker 1: they were literally packing up. And also one person gave
Speaker 1: us a little clap as we crossed the line.
Speaker 2: I point out there probably were seventy five year olds
Speaker 2: in front of us as well. Yeah, but the trail
Speaker 2: running is really amazing because there are the likes of
Speaker 2: us new bees edit and plodding along and wondering why
Speaker 2: everybody's walking up the hill? We're going for a run,
Speaker 2: aren't we? You know it's no, no, no.
Speaker 1: I always walked, you always ran. You're always like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you've got to run. No, you don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because my psyche was running, running, running, and that's
Speaker 2: not how trail running works. And then of course you've
Speaker 2: got the young guns just flying past you, and she's
Speaker 2: just like, how do you even do that? Look, we
Speaker 2: were hooked, won't we absolutely? And we found lots of
Speaker 2: different ways of doing it. We fast pack great walks now,
Speaker 2: which is when you sort of walk run one of
Speaker 2: the great walks and do them in a couple of
Speaker 2: days and things like that.
Speaker 1: What do you love about it?
Speaker 2: I think it's the company first and foremost the nature.
Speaker 2: It's getting back to those things that I did do
Speaker 2: when I was a kid. You know, when you're a child,
Speaker 2: you went for a bushwalk with your parents, you you know,
Speaker 2: they go at the walk behind talking with their mates
Speaker 2: and we would just tear through the bush and having
Speaker 2: a ball, playing games, all sorts of things. It kind
Speaker 2: of I think that's what it brings back for me.
Speaker 2: And it's quick because I'm really impatient.
Speaker 1: It's kind of quick. I mean, we've got to make
Speaker 1: it really clear here. We're not amazing athletes. Please don't
Speaker 1: knock up any of our times because we undertake all
Speaker 1: this in a bid for a good time. Lots of laughs, Gosh,
Speaker 1: we laugh. We do like the core medals and maybe
Speaker 1: a personal best. But these adventures can be really fulfilling
Speaker 1: in lots of ways, can't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm you know, I'm all for a tramp
Speaker 2: as well. I think that there's lots of fun. But
Speaker 2: I'm not a gear person. The thing I loved, always
Speaker 2: loved about running was it. All it took was a
Speaker 2: pair of shoes. And okay, so now I might throw
Speaker 2: five kilograms on a backpack.
Speaker 1: We like the gear, it's just different. It's just not
Speaker 1: lots of gear. No, I like really cool, light, effective gear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't like buying it, but I like it.
Speaker 2: No, I don't. But the other the thing is, and
Speaker 2: we've talked a lot this season about all the different
Speaker 2: things that we know are good for us, and everybody
Speaker 2: keeps on telling us. Time and nature, right, connection with
Speaker 2: a friend, early morning light, if you get out there
Speaker 2: on the trail first thing in the morning. You know,
Speaker 2: you start to see regulars, you get your morning light,
Speaker 2: you get your nature. You're ticking off three your health
Speaker 2: goals before you've even sort of started the day. So
Speaker 2: we want to share the joy today of getting out
Speaker 2: into the bush with you and convince you to take
Speaker 2: on a new challenge. But we know it can be
Speaker 2: difficult getting motivated to take on a new physical challenge
Speaker 2: heading into middle age, as our bodies are changing, are
Speaker 2: we still up for it? We've certainly noticed some changes
Speaker 2: over the years, just a few.
Speaker 1: So we have got the perfect guest today. Kathy Duffy
Speaker 1: is an extraordinary trail runner. She runs marathons, ultra marathons
Speaker 1: and milers and yes, that is one hundred miles. She's
Speaker 1: now coaching with the team that she ran for mile
Speaker 1: twenty seven. She's got a Bachelor of Human Movement Science
Speaker 1: as well as other qualifications in this area, and it's
Speaker 1: particularly interested in making sure that women feel safe and
Speaker 1: comfortable when it comes to running, not only that they
Speaker 1: achieve their goal, but to train with consideration of hormonal
Speaker 1: impacts during various stages of our lives. So we are
Speaker 1: humbled to be joined by Kathy Duffy.
Speaker 3: Welcome, thank you, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 3: I'm very excited to be here and get this party started.
Speaker 1: We are very excited to have you with us as well. Gosh,
Speaker 1: you've done some extraordinary races. What would be the toughest
Speaker 1: that you've done?
Speaker 3: Without a doubt, I would have to say the toughest
Speaker 3: has been the one hundred mile races that I've done,
Speaker 3: And I probably don't need to explain that to the
Speaker 3: audience because one hundred miles is a very long way.
Speaker 3: The longest I've done is forty nine hours over one
Speaker 3: hundred and eighty one kilometers, and that experience is transformative,
Speaker 3: to say the least. It's an exceptional experience, and I
Speaker 3: guess it's what draws me back. It's a very unique
Speaker 3: position to be in, and you learn a lot about
Speaker 3: yourself and you take what you learn in an ultra
Speaker 3: out into your life and it's something that I hold
Speaker 3: very very dear.
Speaker 2: So is that why you do it? Why do you
Speaker 2: do it?
Speaker 3: That's a great question, because you're like, that sounds crazy,
Speaker 3: So why would you do it? For me? It's probably
Speaker 3: more about an evolution. I was very fortunate to find
Speaker 3: a sport, and for me it was trial running, which
Speaker 3: I absolutely love and it brings me a very high
Speaker 3: level of peace that I think you need in our
Speaker 3: life and we need in our lives as busy women.
Speaker 3: And the evolution of the sport meant that I was
Speaker 3: running longer and longer and longer, and it took me
Speaker 3: quite a while to even consider doing that one hundred
Speaker 3: mile distance. But when I committed to that one hundred
Speaker 3: mile distance and then experienced it, it just provides a
Speaker 3: moment in time that's so precious, Like life's very busy,
Speaker 3: and when you start to push your boundaries, regardless, everyone's
Speaker 3: boundaries are different, but for me, it was that one
Speaker 3: hundred mile difference. And when you push your boundaries, the
Speaker 3: busyness of life fades around and you're only focusing of
Speaker 3: that one moment in time. And the further you push
Speaker 3: into that and exhaust yourself, you get to this really
Speaker 3: interesting space of emotional vulnerability that opens up your heart
Speaker 3: in ways that I hadn't experienced before. And I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if this makes sense. If you've done the longer distance,
Speaker 3: it may may not resonate with you, but it's an
Speaker 3: intense experience and you'll often see it the end of
Speaker 3: you know, a race finish line. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: emotion and it's just the culmination of the build up
Speaker 3: of the journey and this eruption of the emotions that
Speaker 3: you feel. And I think that's why I do it.
Speaker 3: It just is amazing. As I said, that eruption of
Speaker 3: emotion and what you gain from that experience, it just
Speaker 3: spills out into the rest of your life. And I
Speaker 3: want other people to feel that, like it's quite the
Speaker 3: journey and the race is the icing on the cake.
Speaker 3: But it's that buzz that I love. I love the
Speaker 3: journey and I love the icing on the cake moment.
Speaker 1: When we were doing our first trail marathon was the
Speaker 1: Tara where a trail marathon, and the last fifteen k's
Speaker 1: I wasn't hugely prepared, probably when it comes to nutrition
Speaker 1: and hydration, and we'll talk about this a little later.
Speaker 1: And I about three four k's before the end, I
Speaker 1: was standing on the side of the trail literally hugging
Speaker 1: a tree, telling Louise that I was going to die.
Speaker 1: I was having a heart attack and I couldn't finish,
Speaker 1: and I was so hot. Can you remember this, and
Speaker 1: you stood there very patiently on the trail because it
Speaker 1: was another hill ahead of us, and we were just
Speaker 1: likeing to come on next, you know, And I really
Speaker 1: in that moment didn't think I could do it, And
Speaker 1: obviously I was going to do it. I knew somehow
Speaker 1: deep down I was going to do it. And we
Speaker 1: did finish. And I know exactly what you mean that
Speaker 1: finish line, that just knowing that you can hit a moment,
Speaker 1: you can sort of get to that hurdle and overcome.
Speaker 1: It is interesting how that then in your life you go,
Speaker 1: this isn't so hard, this isn't so tough. I can
Speaker 1: keep moving forward. Yes I can keep going.
Speaker 3: I feel like you could. Yes, you feel like you
Speaker 3: can do anything after that. And I love your story
Speaker 3: about one needs that nice calm friend, don't they that
Speaker 3: can help talk you through and get you through. But
Speaker 3: to me, I see these events as problem solving your
Speaker 3: way to the end, like something will happen. And for
Speaker 3: you in that Tarawera, you were pushing your boundaries and
Speaker 3: you hit the wall and you were faced with the
Speaker 3: decision and you needed to problem solve your way to
Speaker 3: the end and you did it. And that is just
Speaker 3: the most amazing thing that you can do. That reassurance,
Speaker 3: that confidence, that fight, that spirit in you, Like, that's
Speaker 3: a special gift.
Speaker 2: I think. The only other time I would say that
Speaker 2: I've actually felt that is actually childis it's that kind
Speaker 2: of you've got to get to the end, you've got
Speaker 2: to push through, you've got to stay calm, and you
Speaker 2: do go kind of inside yourself quite quite a lot.
Speaker 2: And I don't think it.
Speaker 1: Matters whether it's forty two, one hundred or ten case,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, like at the moment where
Speaker 1: you know, we're going up every Saturday morning and doing
Speaker 1: a tin k and it's mostly walking for various reasons.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's not that it's not that we
Speaker 2: have to dig too deep for that one, but it's
Speaker 2: the sense of achievement of having gotten up early on
Speaker 2: a sad day, gone and done it. Hit this quite.
Speaker 1: Nasty hell that's on the way yep, and yeah's seen
Speaker 1: some regular folks and just know that everybody out there
Speaker 1: is doing it for the same reason.
Speaker 2: For that peace of mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't underestimate the achievement in that and the
Speaker 3: impact that has in your life, Like because it is
Speaker 3: a choice and we are busy, and it's sometimes difficult
Speaker 3: or it can be very challenging to carve out that
Speaker 3: space for yourself and your own well being. We all know.
Speaker 3: I've I've been through it. You go through different seasons
Speaker 3: of your life, and I've got two children that they're
Speaker 3: grown now, but it was definitely times where it's hard
Speaker 3: to carve out that space. But I think we deserve it, jeez,
Speaker 3: we deserve that. And I think that if you can
Speaker 3: carve that out and you can pop your shoes on
Speaker 3: and you can spend time in nature, whether it's walking, running, crawling,
Speaker 3: I don't care. If you get out there and do
Speaker 3: that for yourself, that's a win.
Speaker 1: In my books, really keen to talk about how people
Speaker 1: can start trail running. It's become hugely popular. Actually, just
Speaker 1: in the introduction, we're talking about that first trail run
Speaker 1: we did where we came pretty much last, and then
Speaker 1: as we got more experience KFE, we look we'd kind
Speaker 1: of go, oh, we're kind of in the middle of
Speaker 1: the pack, or oh, we're kind of narrow the pack
Speaker 1: and our age group we got really excited. But it's
Speaker 1: actually dawned on me now, Lou that it was just
Speaker 1: getting more and more popular, and there are lots more
Speaker 1: people doing it. I don't think actually people necessarily getting better.
Speaker 1: It's just we were used to it and slightly fitted
Speaker 1: the new people started. Well, I'm going to give us
Speaker 1: more credit than that. I think we were getting technically
Speaker 1: better because it is it is a little bit more
Speaker 1: technical than going for a run on the pavement, right,
Speaker 1: so you do have to start scanning and working out
Speaker 1: where you're going to walk and where you're going to
Speaker 1: run and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Look, it is so if we're talking about somebody who's
Speaker 3: keen to get into trial running, and we're targeting I
Speaker 3: guess the conversation at beginners. Look the similarities with running
Speaker 3: around your streets. You have to know where you're going
Speaker 3: and you have to keep safe, right, So that's the
Speaker 3: same for when you head on the trail. But there
Speaker 3: is another component that you need to consider because trail
Speaker 3: offers I guess, some unique challenges. The environment can be
Speaker 3: very different, the weather can change, so there are some
Speaker 3: safety considerations that you need to take on board. I'm
Speaker 3: a big advocate for being very aware of where you're
Speaker 3: going to run, and you can go on the internet
Speaker 3: on national parks, there's all trails apps, there's council sort
Speaker 3: of sites. I use Strava. I don't know if either
Speaker 3: of you Strava, but for those out there listening who
Speaker 3: don't know what that is, look, I do pay for
Speaker 3: a subscription and I'm not affiliated with them anyway. But
Speaker 3: you can go and see on there and you can
Speaker 3: see exactly where people run and the darker the blue line,
Speaker 3: the more people have run that, so you know that's
Speaker 3: a commonly run trail. So things like that can help
Speaker 3: you kind of work out where to run. And you
Speaker 3: need to understand, I guess, the risks in your environment.
Speaker 3: So for me, I live in Australia, so there's things
Speaker 3: like snakes and you know that I need to consider.
Speaker 3: Weather's another thing you need to think about. The weather
Speaker 3: can be much more dynamic out on the trails. In
Speaker 3: one moment, you might be down in a valley. The
Speaker 3: next moment you might be up on a ridge line,
Speaker 3: and especially over in New Zealand, the weather can change
Speaker 3: very quickly depending on where you were. So I don't
Speaker 3: want to overwhelm anyone. I think it's a good idea
Speaker 3: for people to know that you just start small, you
Speaker 3: start with what you're comfortable with and just be reassured
Speaker 3: that you will grow with what you need on the
Speaker 3: trail as your training evolves. So my training when I
Speaker 3: started was just little outbacks on fire trails, and then
Speaker 3: I gradually got more and more adventurous, and then I
Speaker 3: met some people who I could then run with them,
Speaker 3: and then I started to learn about what gear I
Speaker 3: needed to take. So it's something that's really quite exciting
Speaker 3: to learn about. And you don't need to start big
Speaker 3: and look at the end. I don't most certainly don't
Speaker 3: want people overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: And if you have done a little bit of road running, Kathy,
Speaker 1: and you think to yourself, oh yeah, I can, I
Speaker 1: can run five k, don't presume that you know five
Speaker 1: or ten k and the bush is same as five
Speaker 1: or ten k. Like, don't get despondent because they're not
Speaker 1: the same, are they.
Speaker 3: That is a very important point there was So my story.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting in that back on Yuesday in twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: I went for a run just to set the year
Speaker 3: in a good sort of, you know frame, and in
Speaker 3: that run this thought comes to my head, where this
Speaker 3: year I'm going to run a marathon twenty thirteen, I'm
Speaker 3: going to run six foot track. Twenty fourteen, I'm going
Speaker 3: to run Ultratrau Australia or one hundred. So I don't
Speaker 3: know why I thought that. I didn't know how I
Speaker 3: was going to get from A to B at all,
Speaker 3: I didn't know anybody who'd done that, but I kind
Speaker 3: of locked in that plan. So I did my road run,
Speaker 3: so I was a road runner, and then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, I thought, Okay, now I've got to do
Speaker 3: this trail of it this six foot track, which is
Speaker 3: forty five kilometers through about two thousand meters of climbing.
Speaker 3: So I went to my local trail. It's about four
Speaker 3: and a half kilometers. There wasn't much climbing, but it
Speaker 3: was very technical. And after that I went back to
Speaker 3: my husband and I'm like, I don't know how I'm
Speaker 3: going to do this. I can't even hold six minute pace.
Speaker 3: I just had no idea about the differences between that
Speaker 3: there are two different sports, so you do need to
Speaker 3: take that into consideration. But as I said, if you
Speaker 3: start small, you will start to learn how you move
Speaker 3: and flow over the trails, and you'll start to learn
Speaker 3: that hiking's okay and you're going to use different speeds.
Speaker 3: It's just like one big fartlek session, right like speed play.
Speaker 3: And then you'll start to learn that, oh, okay, this
Speaker 3: is technical track with a lot of climbing. So I've
Speaker 3: done ten kilometers on the road in about an hour.
Speaker 3: I've done ten kilometers in the bush that's taken me
Speaker 3: six hours. So those are the kind of things that
Speaker 3: as you learn and grow. Was a trial run, you'll
Speaker 3: start to understand that they're two very different sports.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what took me by surprise. Francisca was more
Speaker 2: prepared than I was. So we did that first half
Speaker 2: in the trail and I went, what is everybody? Why
Speaker 2: is everybody stopping and hiking up this hell? And I
Speaker 2: was determined to run past them and didn't. The second hell,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I get it.
Speaker 1: You can't do that. The hells are going to keep coming. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we hadn't anticipated that. Trail running sounded lovely. We were
Speaker 1: going to run through these beautiful valleys and gentle trails,
Speaker 1: and then every event we did, we're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there's so many hills, and then it occurred to us
Speaker 1: that's the sport.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's really important for people to understand. I
Speaker 3: was very fortunate in just before I did my first
Speaker 3: kind of trial race, I met a lady Natalie, who's
Speaker 3: now a very close friend, and she'd done everything that
Speaker 3: I ever wanted, and she took me under her wing
Speaker 3: and she taught me everything. And I'm so blessed that
Speaker 3: she entered my life because my learning curve was so
Speaker 3: much faster and steeper. And that's why I really want
Speaker 3: to help women in this space on their journeys, because
Speaker 3: you know, just a bit of a helping hand goes
Speaker 3: a long way. But I remember going on one of
Speaker 3: those early runs with her, and the interesting thing was
Speaker 3: we came to it. I won't even call it a
Speaker 3: hill or a mountain, It was a bit of an
Speaker 3: incline and she started walking and I was like oh.
Speaker 3: And I remember saying, oh, so would you do this
Speaker 3: in a race? And she's like yeah, And I'm like, ah,
Speaker 3: So I had this permission, in this freedom to start
Speaker 3: to understand that that's what tr running is about. It's
Speaker 3: getting from a to B in the most efficient way
Speaker 3: you can. And whether that is running or hiking, it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. Even the elites hike, even the elites hike,
Speaker 3: so if they hike, we need to include that as
Speaker 3: part of our training as well. Right, it's important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the power walking up hells when I did a
Speaker 1: lot of training, if I had didn't, you know, to
Speaker 1: power walk up hills, there'd be times where you'd be
Speaker 1: jogging beside.
Speaker 2: I know, I was just thinking about that. There's a
Speaker 2: times that i' I'm going to jog this and Franships
Speaker 2: is just walking beside me quite furiously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, Katy, if you if you are doing a
Speaker 1: little bit of running or you have hit it out
Speaker 1: and you've gone it to you, I'm quite enjoying a
Speaker 1: five or a ten k, and I'm really loving this
Speaker 1: time in the bush. If someone then goes, Okay, I
Speaker 1: want to step it up and I want to do
Speaker 1: an event, and I want to try and get to
Speaker 1: a half marathon or a marathon, where do you start
Speaker 1: in your thinking?
Speaker 3: Well, firstly, excellent because you've got to be surrounded by
Speaker 3: like minded people. And the trial community is amazing. And
Speaker 3: some of my really good friends I've met through doing
Speaker 3: events and I now run with and we support each other.
Speaker 3: So I think it's really exciting. That's that's a way
Speaker 3: to start developing your support networks and your resources, and
Speaker 3: if you're in a lula, you can ring up you know,
Speaker 3: Luise or Francesca and hey let's go for a run.
Speaker 3: But yeah, to answer your question, I think it's good
Speaker 3: to pick an event that speaks to you. You because
Speaker 3: you want long distance running and running can be hard,
Speaker 3: so you want to pick something that energizes you, that
Speaker 3: gives you a bit of a lift. When I chose
Speaker 3: my first one hundred mile race, everyone was saying wow,
Speaker 3: like that's ridiculous to choose that. Forear first one hundred
Speaker 3: mile race. It was through the Victorian Alps in Australia,
Speaker 3: and it was more of an adventure course than a
Speaker 3: running course. It was crazy hard, over ten thousand meters
Speaker 3: of climbing. Damn it just it's something spoke to me.
Speaker 3: So I think you need to pick something that lights
Speaker 3: that little fire inside of you. I think is very
Speaker 3: important because you're going to dedicate time towards this event.
Speaker 3: But the good thing about picking an event is it
Speaker 3: provides a sort of direction for your training, right, So
Speaker 3: you want to obviously learn as much about that event
Speaker 3: as you can. You want to know how far it is,
Speaker 3: what kind of terrain that you're going to be running on.
Speaker 3: Is it a fire trailer, is a technical single track?
Speaker 3: Do you want to learn as much about the as
Speaker 3: you can? You want to learn how much vert or
Speaker 3: climbing or descending there is, what weather you will experience,
Speaker 3: and all that information is what's going to guide your
Speaker 3: training now. So you're not just training to just get
Speaker 3: fit and be able to run and tick that box
Speaker 3: I've done my three or four one hour runs in
Speaker 3: the week. It starts providing direction for your training. So
Speaker 3: an example is I know Kepler Over in New Zealand
Speaker 3: is about sixty kilometers and two thousand or just over
Speaker 3: two thousand meters of climbing, but I know most of
Speaker 3: that climbing is in that first third of the race,
Speaker 3: and then you've got this really runnable two thirds at
Speaker 3: the end. So when you start evolving your long run,
Speaker 3: you'll start to think, Okay, I need my body to
Speaker 3: cope with the climbing, but I need to be able
Speaker 3: to run because it's a running race, right. So your
Speaker 3: long run one weekend might start to work towards more
Speaker 3: climbing and descending. Then the next week you might want
Speaker 3: it to be more runnable and you might be alternating those.
Speaker 3: So see what I mean. The difference is it an
Speaker 3: event starts to provide direction for your training, and then
Speaker 3: the event is the icing on the cake, which I
Speaker 3: alluded to before. The training is the fun part, you know,
Speaker 3: you sort of get to tick all these boxes, you
Speaker 3: get to feel a sense of achievement and strength, and
Speaker 3: the race is sort of the icing on the cake,
Speaker 3: just as the reward for all your hard work. So
Speaker 3: I'm excited if anybody is sitting here and they're starting
Speaker 3: to think maybe I should do an event.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've been doing this and off for thirteen
Speaker 2: years and you've just actually the opening's just dropped about
Speaker 2: how to train. We did the Keepler as a fast pack.
Speaker 2: It wasn't the event, but we did it over two
Speaker 2: days instead of the three or four days it might
Speaker 2: normally take. But we had to because of the weather.
Speaker 2: We had to be flexible, and we had to change
Speaker 2: the direction. So we didn't have that climb at the start.
Speaker 2: We had that as a descent, but we did have
Speaker 2: a nasty switchback on the way up, and I hadn't
Speaker 2: trained for that, to be.
Speaker 1: Honest with you. Kathy Louise some times, benest Luise sometimes
Speaker 1: imagines things are going to be different than they are,
Speaker 1: even when I tell her they're going to be the
Speaker 1: way they are. We did talk about the incline there.
Speaker 1: We did we did actually do some work.
Speaker 2: I oh, no, totally. We did the cameras a billion times.
Speaker 3: We did.
Speaker 1: We actually did a lot of work for that.
Speaker 2: I just wasn't counting on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's and actually that's something we should bring up.
Speaker 1: If you want to be a trail runner. It's not
Speaker 1: just about the running. The strength work is really important,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Kathy.
Speaker 3: Look, definitely, strength is a big part of it. But
Speaker 3: there's no doubt that if you want to be able
Speaker 3: to run long distances, you need to be able to
Speaker 3: run right. You need to get that level of volume.
Speaker 3: But you also need to provide your body with a
Speaker 3: strong foundation now and I think that's important through all
Speaker 3: stages of your life. But it's equally so much more
Speaker 3: important the older you get. I have to be honest,
Speaker 3: I didn't do any strength work for a long period
Speaker 3: of time. I had ten beautiful, eleven beautiful injury free
Speaker 3: years in all my running, and I was running about
Speaker 3: five times a week and it was great, and I've
Speaker 3: done so much, and then I reached that point in
Speaker 3: my life, which I guess you know what I'm alluding to,
Speaker 3: where the hormones start to shift and there's different stresses
Speaker 3: on your body, and I started to get my first
Speaker 3: few niggles and then injuries. So that then led me
Speaker 3: to learn about, well, what's now happening with my body,
Speaker 3: what's changing, what do I need to know, what do
Speaker 3: I need to do differently? And I think one of
Speaker 3: you mentioned before about having flexibility with your training, So
Speaker 3: that's when I've included strength work, and I think it's
Speaker 3: very important. There's different ways to do that. Find a
Speaker 3: way that speaks with you. But for me, it's going
Speaker 3: into the gym and starting to lift a little bit
Speaker 3: heavier as well. For me, I'm separating out the two things.
Speaker 3: The strength work is a strong foundation, but I'm doing
Speaker 3: that for the benefit to my bones and muscles and
Speaker 3: they're not specifically kind of runner type actions. So that's
Speaker 3: the difference for me. It's like there's a different focal
Speaker 3: point for the types of things I'm doing in the gym.
Speaker 3: But yes, strength is very important in terms of I
Speaker 3: guess your longevity in the sport and because you know,
Speaker 3: our body makes us do what we need to do
Speaker 3: and we need to kind of look after and make
Speaker 3: it as strong as possible.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the little things. And our guest today
Speaker 1: is Ultra marathon runner and coach Kathy Duffy talking about
Speaker 1: the joys of trail running. We'll be back after the break, Kathy.
Speaker 2: Before the break, you were just saying about strength, and
Speaker 2: I had an injury at achilles niggle and I went
Speaker 2: to this particular physio and all over the reception area
Speaker 2: is great kind of posters and things about being strong
Speaker 2: for what you want to do and being strong as
Speaker 2: you age. And the first thing the physia said to me,
Speaker 2: which was mortifying, was this injury has occurred because you're
Speaker 2: not strong enough to be doing what you're doing. You're
Speaker 2: trying to ask your body to do something it's not
Speaker 2: strong enough to be doing. And since then it still
Speaker 2: took me another couple of years because that's just me.
Speaker 1: But now I love my strength training and I notice
Speaker 1: I haven't had a niggle out of that ankle. It
Speaker 1: was so painful for so long and just doing the
Speaker 1: correct you know, building up the muscles around it to
Speaker 1: support it. I suddenly realized the connectivity from my feet
Speaker 1: to the top of my head.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. It's crazy. How can I
Speaker 2: get to fifty three and only just realize how my
Speaker 2: body works.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you're not alone, Luise at all. I
Speaker 3: think that it's very common, and that is similar to
Speaker 3: my experience. You know, nothing and then sort of hamstring
Speaker 3: and then torn planet of fashion and then an ankle injury.
Speaker 3: So it was all of a sudden. It's interesting you
Speaker 3: kind of live in this body for so many decades
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, your body it just seems
Speaker 3: like different. And when you're speaking about those posters, I
Speaker 3: think in the last few years, I've developed this motto
Speaker 3: where its function over face value. I pride how my
Speaker 3: body functions much higher than how it's actually looking, if
Speaker 3: that makes sense. So that's that's what I continually tell myself,
Speaker 3: is how do I want to function when I'm eighty,
Speaker 3: you know? And if I can't do some of those
Speaker 3: things now, I need to really address those things. And
Speaker 3: from a running perspective, running is very repetitive, especially when
Speaker 3: we're doing road running, because most of us will do
Speaker 3: most of our training on roads or local sort of
Speaker 3: ovals and things like that with just a small portion
Speaker 3: on the trails. But it's a repetitive sport that does
Speaker 3: put stress on our body, so we need to strengthen
Speaker 3: it so we can function as well as we can
Speaker 3: as we age. It's a longevity issue as well.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about keeping keeping active as
Speaker 1: we age and sort of hit that perimenopause and menopause stage.
Speaker 2: And I loved.
Speaker 1: It before we started this podcast, you called it the
Speaker 1: glory years with a smile on your face, which actually
Speaker 1: I like, I thought that was very positive approach towards it,
Speaker 1: even if it didn't mean it, you know, even if
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of psychasm in there. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure you've kind of mentioned how we can be
Speaker 1: more prone to injury, but there's a lot of things
Speaker 1: that can kind of that the female middle age athlete
Speaker 1: might come across. I mean, it can. Does it become
Speaker 1: harder to maintain and build and look after our muscles
Speaker 1: for example?
Speaker 3: Short answer is yes. So the longer answer is there
Speaker 3: are a lot of things that are happening in our
Speaker 3: body behind the scenes as we age. And I know
Speaker 3: that you've both done some really great podcasts on menopause.
Speaker 3: You've had the Queen doctor Stacy Simson as well, and
Speaker 3: she's amazing, And I do encourage people to go back
Speaker 3: and listen to those because there's a lot of extremely
Speaker 3: valuable information in those. But first of all, I want
Speaker 3: women to know, regardless of the fact that they're aging,
Speaker 3: is they can absolutely still do anything. Aging doesn't preclude
Speaker 3: you from doing amazing things. I'm training a woman in
Speaker 3: her sixties at the moment with her ultimate goal of
Speaker 3: doing one hundred mile race. I know I've got two
Speaker 3: other friends athletes who are doing their tenth UTA one hundred.
Speaker 3: They're in their later fifties and they're going for a PB.
Speaker 3: So think about that. So they started in their forties,
Speaker 3: they're in their later fifties, and they're training to go
Speaker 3: for a PB. So anything's possible.
Speaker 1: This heart press the hope for us, and I.
Speaker 3: Most certainly haven't changed my goals as such. My goal
Speaker 3: is to be the best I can be. Now that
Speaker 3: may look a little bit different as I age, but
Speaker 3: that's still my goal to optimize and maximize my potential.
Speaker 3: But there are some things, yes, we need to consider,
Speaker 3: and you mentioned muscles, so and I don't want to
Speaker 3: go into a big education around menopause because you have
Speaker 3: already dressed this in the past. But the just people
Speaker 3: need to understand the impact of sort of fluctuating and
Speaker 3: then withdrawing hormones is significant, and people need to know
Speaker 3: that it's a head to toe condition and it's not
Speaker 3: just about impacts your reproduction and hot flushes. It's a
Speaker 3: head to toe condition. So the really good examples you've
Speaker 3: mentioned muscles and bones. They're very dynamic tissue. They build up,
Speaker 3: they break down, they build up, they break down. As
Speaker 3: we're in this kind of transition around menopause, these things
Speaker 3: break down more than they build up. And we don't
Speaker 3: have estrogen to help build our bones and keep our
Speaker 3: muscles as strong and powerful as they can be. So
Speaker 3: we need to train a little bit differently. And doctor
Speaker 3: Simms is great sheeese, As I said, I think you
Speaker 3: had a training and menopause thing, but you need to
Speaker 3: think you need that external stressor plus your protein dosing
Speaker 3: to now do the best that you can for your muscles.
Speaker 3: And we've already spoken about strength. So you might be
Speaker 3: going into the gym to lift heavy, you might be
Speaker 3: doing hit training, pliometric training. It might be if you're
Speaker 3: able to add that to your training schedule, that's great.
Speaker 3: If you're time poor and you can't add it, it
Speaker 3: might be appropriate not to do that fifth run, to
Speaker 3: swap it out for one of those strength sessions, because
Speaker 3: you need this external stress. You need a different type
Speaker 3: of input for the same level of output that you
Speaker 3: had before. So things like that are really important. And
Speaker 3: that's what caught me heading into peri menopause is I
Speaker 3: didn't now have this different stressor to maximize my muscles,
Speaker 3: and then I started to get some of these niggles
Speaker 3: and then injuries, and hence it led me down the
Speaker 3: path of kind of going to the gym and doing
Speaker 3: some different type of training. And that's a big one.
Speaker 3: And as I said, it's important in all seasons of
Speaker 3: your life, but it's particularly important at this stage of
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved that a whole what you've just said,
Speaker 2: And if you need to rewind and listen to that again,
Speaker 2: you've just really hit the nail on the head for
Speaker 2: just sort of encapsulating exactly what happens. It's harder for
Speaker 2: that the muscles to puleting faster, it's harder to build
Speaker 2: it up, and I've got a personal bug beer at
Speaker 2: the moment on social media about women sort of heading
Speaker 2: back at with a bit of a whiplash moment of
Speaker 2: I don't want to eat my protein, I don't want
Speaker 2: to have all scottagecheet that, don't want to go to
Speaker 2: the gym, I don't want to blah blah blah, do
Speaker 2: what you like. But this is happening to your body regardless.
Speaker 2: And if you want to go and do something and
Speaker 2: enjoy it and not be injured, you know, no, there's
Speaker 2: just not anough. There's no one there to pick you
Speaker 2: up except for yourself at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I really enjoyed that. Thank you, You're welcome.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because the body starts to change a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm having to deal with I've had a knee problem
Speaker 1: which has led to a lack of consistency and exercise,
Speaker 1: which has led to a little bit of excess weight
Speaker 1: around my tummy, Cathy, And it's really interesting how it
Speaker 1: audious builds and then it suddenly makes it harder to
Speaker 1: move and more difficult to move. So I'm reversing that.
Speaker 1: I'm starting with getting rid of the gart and like
Speaker 1: I'm coming back to being able to be. But you know,
Speaker 1: you can hit another wall, a slightly different wall than
Speaker 1: what being on the trail of just having that motivation
Speaker 1: and feeling that you can kind of get up and
Speaker 1: do it as well when you hit those middle age years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a lot coming at us, isn't there.
Speaker 3: Like the person that we knew for so many decades
Speaker 3: is now like a bit different. It's like we're having
Speaker 3: to kind of relearn ourselves. And as I mentioned, menopause
Speaker 3: is a head to toe condition and as impacts to
Speaker 3: our brain, which can infect like our motivation, we could
Speaker 3: have new onset of depression, anxiety, and things like that.
Speaker 3: The way our metabolic, so the way we use glucose
Speaker 3: and things can change which can lead to that weight
Speaker 3: changes and that sort of weight around your belly. There's
Speaker 3: all these things going on. And I was having a
Speaker 3: recent conversation with a friend who's a sports dietitian, Sylvia Feffer,
Speaker 3: and she said something to me that just went in
Speaker 3: my brain, And I'm going to tell you what she
Speaker 3: told me. She said, you need to disentangle performance goals
Speaker 3: from body image. Now, when I say that disentangle performance goals,
Speaker 3: from body image. What do you both think?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I sorry, say it one more time.
Speaker 3: Disengage, So disentangle performance goals from body image. So whilst
Speaker 3: you're thinking, I can let you know what how that
Speaker 3: resonated with me. So if I disentangle, if I separate out,
Speaker 3: So you're talking about my body looks a little bit different,
Speaker 3: and it will over your lifetime when you go through puberty,
Speaker 3: if you have children, your body will look different. And
Speaker 3: this stage in your life is no different. And especially
Speaker 3: let's add on aging as well as the impacts of hormones. Right,
Speaker 3: So I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm carrying a little bit more around my belly. So
Speaker 3: body image and how I perceive that. If I just
Speaker 3: pop that to the side and I look at one
Speaker 3: of my performance goals. So my performance goals at the
Speaker 3: moment are there's a race I'm targeting. So I need
Speaker 3: to train sensibly, need to have good recovery, I need
Speaker 3: to have quality nutrition, I need to do my strength,
Speaker 3: I need to get sort of sleep in I can
Speaker 3: if I'm doing all the things to maximize my performance.
Speaker 3: The irony of all of that is your body will
Speaker 3: end up the best that it can be. So focusing
Speaker 3: on your performance goals and doing everything you need to
Speaker 3: in that space and the right things for your body
Speaker 3: optimizes I guess the physicality of your body, which then
Speaker 3: flows onto the mental side as well. And I think
Speaker 3: that the issue when women start focusing on is this
Speaker 3: belly weight or I don't like it? Aside from looking
Speaker 3: at the performance goals, is what do women typically do
Speaker 3: when they're concerned about their body image and want to
Speaker 3: lose weight.
Speaker 2: We stop eating as much and we stop giving our
Speaker 2: bodies the right nutrition.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you calorie restrict you might get obsessive about exercise,
Speaker 3: and those two things will actually exacerbate the impacts of menopause.
Speaker 3: So for me, that disentanglement of the two, and it
Speaker 3: ties into my function over face value is what what
Speaker 3: do you want to achieve for yourself right now? Where
Speaker 3: do you want to be? What's important to you? And
Speaker 3: my body will be what my body will be. And
Speaker 3: I am so I'm so proud of what my body
Speaker 3: allows me to do. And yes, I'm a fifty two
Speaker 3: year old woman who's you know, got decades and decades
Speaker 3: worth of societal pressures on me to look a certain way,
Speaker 3: and I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm constantly reminding
Speaker 3: myself that it's okay where I'm at because I'm doing,
Speaker 3: as a fifty two year old, far more than what
Speaker 3: some twenty year olds you can do, and I'm proud
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 1: It's really, it's really, it's a great way to put it,
Speaker 1: because I didn't really become terribly consumed about my weight
Speaker 1: until it became a health issue and it stopped me
Speaker 1: doing what I wanted to do. So in a way,
Speaker 1: that's the same thing. It's kind of like, oh, actually,
Speaker 1: so what is it you want to do? Okay, get
Speaker 1: on with doing what you need to do, and the
Speaker 1: other that side of it will come, you know. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much that I was conscious of how
Speaker 1: I looked. It was more that it was it was
Speaker 1: having health implications and stopping me doing what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do. Yes, so it's yeah, so oh coursh isn't
Speaker 1: that interesting?
Speaker 3: Hey?
Speaker 1: Look, Kathy, really quickly, as we're getting older, should we
Speaker 1: be doing more rolling and stretching in our agemes and
Speaker 1: things like that? Does that make a difference?
Speaker 3: Well? Interesting? Look, I have to admit I'm probably the
Speaker 3: worst at that, and a lot of ultratrail runners aren't
Speaker 3: the best at rolling and stretching. And I think the
Speaker 3: science probably is a little bit not too powerful in
Speaker 3: terms of pointing towards the benefits of rolling and things
Speaker 3: like that. But I think when I think sorry, I
Speaker 3: think when I think of stretching, it comes back to
Speaker 3: that functional side of things, and as I age, it's
Speaker 3: it's important that I can move freely, and I need
Speaker 3: to be able to move freely over the trails. So
Speaker 3: there are some functional movements, and I know in our
Speaker 3: sort of with our coaching, there's some sort of functional
Speaker 3: strength type movements that can be concluded in your program.
Speaker 3: There's another app leos moves that I signed up for recently,
Speaker 3: which is these really functional, but they're stretching with strengthening
Speaker 3: because I watch strength through that range of motion as
Speaker 3: opposed to me just sitting there and just bending forward
Speaker 3: and stretching out my hand strings. So I'm kind of
Speaker 3: more looking for functional strength over the range of motion,
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the sterets are good. Yeah, we had a fabulous
Speaker 2: session with her and the Built to Move They've got
Speaker 2: some amazing stuff and the for functionality opening the hips. Yes,
Speaker 2: kind of thing that can reject.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hey, what about risk days.
Speaker 3: I think rest days are very important, and I think
Speaker 3: it's a real important part of understanding your body and
Speaker 3: what you need. And I also think it's an important
Speaker 3: part of your training regime because it allows for all
Speaker 3: the adaptions from all your training to kind of take hold,
Speaker 3: rather than you constantly putting these stresses on your body,
Speaker 3: because training is another stressor. And I sort of shifted
Speaker 3: some of my training along the way, and I started
Speaker 3: training in the afternoon because I was opting for the
Speaker 3: sleep because as we know, during kind of perimenopause, sleeping
Speaker 3: can be a challenge. So sleep became more important. And
Speaker 3: then I shifted when I trained. At the moment, I've
Speaker 3: as I mentioned before, five days a week running, I'm
Speaker 3: actually doing for it at the moment, but too are
Speaker 3: on trail. Too are on the road, so that and
Speaker 3: the trail ones are slightly longer, so I'm getting the
Speaker 3: same volume, but I'm getting an extra day of recovery.
Speaker 3: So recovery is very important for all athletes, especially athletes
Speaker 3: as they age, and I think people need to give
Speaker 3: themselves permission and understand that it is a very important
Speaker 3: part of your training, and sometimes it's a better decision
Speaker 3: to take a rest to day than to soldier on
Speaker 3: if you're so fatigued and your body is aching, just
Speaker 3: to tick that.
Speaker 2: Box beautifully explained Kathy.
Speaker 1: It's just been wonderful to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm totally motivated. It's almost like we're starting again. Luise,
Speaker 1: you kind of you've motivated us again. And what you
Speaker 1: have achieved and I'm sure will continue to achieve, it's
Speaker 1: just extraordinary. It's amazing.
Speaker 3: Look, I love this space and I really appreciate the
Speaker 3: opportunity to have the discussion. I think it's really important
Speaker 3: for women to know that you can do that. It's
Speaker 3: very possible. It doesn't have to be overwhelming. Start small,
Speaker 3: find your tribe. We can have more conversations and let's
Speaker 3: just you know, build up the women in this sport
Speaker 3: that we love so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really do think midlife. Maybe it's like me
Speaker 2: and playing golf. I don't know, but I do think
Speaker 2: midlife is a really great opportunity to start the stuff. Really,
Speaker 2: we were forty when we started.
Speaker 3: Oh me too, I was. I was forty. I did well.
Speaker 3: I did that road marathon the year that I turned forty,
Speaker 3: and so yes, in my forties and fifties, i've been
Speaker 3: doing ultra trails. No, it's possible.
Speaker 2: That's great, Thank you so much. I love Kathy, so
Speaker 2: do I.
Speaker 1: She's so amazing. But I did think to myself, we
Speaker 1: both started trail running at the same time, Louise, Okay,
Speaker 1: not you and I, but you and I and we
Speaker 1: al said to.
Speaker 2: Have alway done one hundred mile. Yet it could still happen.
Speaker 1: It could still happen if I can get my right
Speaker 1: nef I could just get my right knee sort of.
Speaker 1: Who knows, but I feel really positive about that now,
Speaker 1: me too about It's like set of goal.
Speaker 2: Just go for it.
Speaker 1: Think about it too long, it's just do it.
Speaker 2: I have to make a phone call when I leave
Speaker 2: here because I think I just said to you last
Speaker 2: week that I've been working out quite a lot. I'm
Speaker 2: seeing little changes, and I keep and my son is
Speaker 2: my coach, because he's a strength and conditioning coach, and
Speaker 2: I have been saying to him, can't you see a difference,
Speaker 2: can't you see look at this muscle, look at it.
Speaker 2: And he's constantly going, I don't care about what your
Speaker 2: body looks, like I care about what your body can do.
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, and everybody, you know, everybody
Speaker 2: wants some credit for and he's not going to give
Speaker 2: me it. And he's dead right, because I should be
Speaker 2: disentangling my body from my performance. So yeah, I'm making
Speaker 2: that phone call when I leave today.
Speaker 1: He'll be thrilled to get that. Yeah, his mother telling
Speaker 1: him that he was right after all this time. I
Speaker 1: loved Kathy's message that anybody can step outside the door
Speaker 1: and start something new, regardless of our age and stage.
Speaker 1: Might be a few more things to have in the
Speaker 1: back of your mind and to think about if you're
Speaker 1: heading into middle age. But it's absolutely doable. And women
Speaker 1: are so good at endurance, especially when they.
Speaker 2: Get oh yeah we are. That's a really good point.
Speaker 2: And I think too, you know, like I said on
Speaker 2: the intro, like we just keep being told nature, light movement,
Speaker 2: and you know, if it doesn't matter, if it's not
Speaker 2: for you, that there are parks close by you can do.
Speaker 2: You know, you can walk in just perhaps don't do
Speaker 2: your normal walk around one tree. He'll maybe just go
Speaker 2: straight up the hill, try something different.
Speaker 1: Find it convinced A like minded friend to join you,
Speaker 1: because company always makes it so much better and you
Speaker 1: can kind of support and motivate each other as you
Speaker 1: go along, but also to have I'm god, if we laughed,
Speaker 1: we have laughed, we cried and wet our pants, and
Speaker 1: the wh we have, the places and the and the
Speaker 1: places we have seen and done and been and everything
Speaker 1: that's been amazing. And thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series, Litle Things.
Speaker 1: We hope you share this podcast with the women in
Speaker 1: your life so we all feel motivated to start anything
Speaker 1: new that we want to achieve at any agent stage exactly.
Speaker 2: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
Speaker 2: head to mzed herold dot co dot MZ.
Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time on the Little Things