1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: Now National is holding the line on the Paris Climate 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Agreement Act in New Zealand. First are both advocating for 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: New Zealand to quit the deal unless its conditions significantly improved. 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: But Prime Minister Chris Luxon says leaving Paris would be 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: the fastest way to hurt our farmers. Now, Simon Watts 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: is the National Party Climate Change Minister High Simon, Hey, yeah, 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: it's good to talk to you. 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. 9 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: How would it hurt our farmers? 10 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: Look, I don't believe it will hurt our farmers. The 11 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: Paris Agreement doesn't put any sanction. Well, look, we have 12 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: no plans to pull out. As a government. Were committed 13 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: to the targets and we're committed to the Paris Agreement. 14 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: Chris Luxon says, if we pull out, it would hurt 15 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: our farmers. 16 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: How well, the reality is is that we are a 17 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: major export nation. I've just come back from Beijing on 18 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: Friday speaking with the Chinese minister that are committed to 19 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: the Paris Agreement. They expect other. 20 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Simon, come off it. They're building coal fired plants right now. 21 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: There's and by the way, they want our protein. They 22 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: are not going to punish our if we pull out. 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: No, I didn't say that. I'm just saying that they 24 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: are committed to the Paris Agreement. They're coming out with 25 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: their new NDC targets. 26 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: Like we have going to hurt us though, Well. 27 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: We're not part of the broader commitment to an international agreement, 28 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: and right now international trade is highly volatile. Well, we 29 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: are into country that wants to be putting that type 30 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: of stuff at risk. 31 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: We're getting punished anyway, even if we are committed to 32 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: whatever globally, We've just copped tariff. So what's the point 33 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: in being part of stuff for trade reasons? I mean, 34 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: tell me, tell me, because what Chris Luxon has said 35 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: is that we get hurt if we pull out. So 36 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: how do we get hurt? 37 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: Well, the reality is we've got a number of our 38 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: free trade agreements and international agreements with other countries that 39 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: we export to that have considerations requirements for us to 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: meet our climate obligations. 41 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: And what happens when we don't pulling out and. 42 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: By pulling out of Paris, that we put at risk 43 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: some of those trade agreements. And to be honest here, 44 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: as an export lead recovery driven by our primary sector, 45 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: I want to. 46 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: Be putting those What happens in those trade agreements? What 47 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: triggers do they pull to punish us if we pull out. 48 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: Well, there's there's a variety of means that they could, 49 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: not saying that they would, but they can in terms 50 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: of the clauses, and potentially it's a reassessment of that agreement, 51 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: and a reassessment of that agreement means volatility and uncertainty. 52 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: About volatility is assignment. You're saying to me that some 53 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: of these agreements could be abandoned all together if we 54 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: pull out of out of the Paris Agreement. 55 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: The devils and the detail in the contexts of what 56 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: countries would agree. 57 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: In what they would do, but that in some of 58 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: those agreements too, that they could abandon the agreement all 59 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: together if we pull out of Paris. 60 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: There is commitments within our agreements that means that we 61 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: need to remain part of those international agreements for the climate. 62 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: Is which agreements might be abandoned all together because we 63 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: pull out out of power us? 64 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not saying that, but I am saying you and. 65 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: That's what you inferred. So which agreements were fall apart? 66 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: The EU Agreement and the UK agreement have clauses within 67 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: them that means we have obligations in regards to our 68 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: climate change. 69 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: And might either of those two yet no totally, and 70 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: might either of them be abandoned by the other party 71 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: altogether if we pull out of Paris. 72 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: I can't speak on boats in the UK the worst. 73 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: Thing, but simon, what's the worst thing that these countries 74 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: or blocks could do to us under the agreement if 75 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: we pull. 76 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: Out, Well, technically they could invoke those clauses and say 77 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: that we're in breach of those agreements and they want 78 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: to reassess that agreement, and you know that could go 79 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: as far as you know, potentially some form of sanction 80 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: or other aspects. So this is the serious stuff. 81 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: Heither in listen, I understand. I want to work through 82 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: this detail with you, okay, So let's just stick to 83 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: the matter at hand. So now let's look at where 84 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: we export. We export primarily and when we're talking about 85 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: the affected products here, let's say dairy we export primarily 86 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: to the US and China, neither of whom are going 87 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: to do this to us. So were you telling me 88 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: that we are worried about two actually quite small markets 89 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: being the UK and EU instead? That's what we're focusing 90 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: on as these two small markets were not so worried 91 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: about the big ones, right, the big ones are not 92 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: under threat. 93 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: Hither. I was in China in Beijing on Friday, I 94 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: was face to face with a bilateral with my counterpart, 95 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: Chinese minister. We were talking about the fact that they 96 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: needs to be part of the Paris Agreement was an 97 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: alignment between our two countries, and the minister was clear 98 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 2: with me that the China are now looking at the 99 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: relationship between climate change and trade as being into linkages. 100 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: That is pretty Is there something in our sca with China. 101 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: In regards to our climate commitments? There is commitments within 102 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: that agreement as well. 103 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: Yet okay, and what could they do to us if 104 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: they decided to punish. 105 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: Us, Well, again, there was no indication that would. 106 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: Be the reason I'm asking you this. 107 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: Yes, the agreements do have clauses and if they wanted 108 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: to trigger those. The reality is climate change now heither 109 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: is a trade consideration and can be used by other 110 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: countries as a trade barrier. And just with the volatility 111 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: in the trade market at the moment, the world's pretty 112 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: uncertain at the moment, and to be honest, we don't 113 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: want to be shaking the tin any here. 114 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: We don't, I understand. But what I want to be to, 115 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: what I want to get to with this line of 116 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: questioning is what I want to understand is do the 117 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: risks that you are outlining to me outweigh the costs 118 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: that the farmers are bearing at the moment? 119 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: Well, the Paris Agreement doesn't impose sanctions or financial penalties 120 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: on us as it stands, so, but the risk of 121 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: putting those trades. 122 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: I understand that. Please, I understand how this works. But 123 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: there are costs, and you know that there are costs 124 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: that farmers are bearing. However it is whether it is 125 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: through the increased cost of electricity or whatever. Do the 126 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: costs that the farmers bear is that outweighed? Which of 127 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: the two is great? The risk from us pulling out 128 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: all the costs that they're currently bearing under the thing 129 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: and and stand to bear. 130 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, hither the risks to our trade is a 131 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: much greater and higher risk than the implications around the 132 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: cost component that feeds through. 133 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: How you guys want to find this? Have you quantified it? 134 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: Have you have you done the sub Yes. 135 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: Yes, we've quantified and every decision we send in the 136 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: recent one. Can I send it to you? Well, it'll 137 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: be in the public domain as part of the cabinet agreements. 138 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: But we have economic analysis and we did that when 139 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: we made the NDC agreement at the beginning of this year. 140 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: Actually we had the economic as part of that. 141 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: Really important we look at it. 142 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: I'm happy to get it to you after this all, Heather, 143 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: but it is in the public domain. I'm pretty sure. 144 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. 145 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: Hey, really quickly, on another subject, when are you making 146 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: the announcement on the fix for the electricity sector? 147 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: Hey, Look, we're taking that through with cabinet. I'm in 148 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,039 Speaker 2: Australia with Minister Willis right now and meeting with the 149 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: gym ministers in the Australian Treasurer today. We've got that 150 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: coming pretty soon. But we're working pretty hard. We know 151 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: that we want to I've always said that we want 152 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: to get at out quarter three, so we're aiming for 153 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: the end of September. 154 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: Good stuff, Hey, Simon, thank you. Always appreciate your time. 155 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: That Simon. What's the climate change minister? I don't know 156 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: about you, but I'm starting to think that these threats 157 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: are not real. What do you think It's just like 158 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: the worst case scenario, absolute worst case scenario. They might 159 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: punish us by triggering something in the FTA worst case scenario, 160 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: but probably not actually going to happen, is it? 161 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to 162 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: news talks they'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 163 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.