1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:13,173 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from NEWSTALKSB Follow this and 2 00:00:13,293 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,692 --> 00:00:19,213 Speaker 2: The government is preparing to move all vehicles over to 4 00:00:19,293 --> 00:00:22,493 Speaker 2: a ruck system by twenty twenty seven. Terry Collins is 5 00:00:22,653 --> 00:00:27,053 Speaker 2: Principal Policy Advisor for the AA on Transport Policy and advocacy. 6 00:00:27,053 --> 00:00:30,013 Speaker 2: He's been across this since the idea was first floated 7 00:00:30,013 --> 00:00:32,493 Speaker 2: by National and joins us on the phones now, Terry, 8 00:00:32,573 --> 00:00:33,452 Speaker 2: very good afternoon to you. 9 00:00:33,613 --> 00:00:34,893 Speaker 3: Yeah, good afternoon Mett and Dollald. 10 00:00:35,293 --> 00:00:38,253 Speaker 4: So, Terry, is petrol tax or fuel excise tax no 11 00:00:38,333 --> 00:00:41,933 Speaker 4: longer sustainable as a road funding model in New Zealand. 12 00:00:42,132 --> 00:00:44,932 Speaker 3: Well, we've been striving to get more efficient cars. So 13 00:00:45,013 --> 00:00:49,053 Speaker 3: obviously if you're traveling the same distance and using less fuel, 14 00:00:49,412 --> 00:00:52,613 Speaker 3: will pay less tube exoust duty and that's been the 15 00:00:52,693 --> 00:00:56,973 Speaker 3: driver behind it. Also the move towards more hybrid and 16 00:00:57,133 --> 00:01:01,053 Speaker 3: evs means obviously evs don't use petrol. Hybrid's news even lease. 17 00:01:01,453 --> 00:01:03,213 Speaker 3: So looking at the future the way the fleet was 18 00:01:03,253 --> 00:01:05,533 Speaker 3: going to change, that made this decision to move to 19 00:01:05,973 --> 00:01:07,613 Speaker 3: universal ruck for all the vehicles. 20 00:01:08,613 --> 00:01:11,453 Speaker 4: What as an EERUK system and how do you see 21 00:01:11,453 --> 00:01:15,533 Speaker 4: it working? Is will there be new technology installed in cars. 22 00:01:15,613 --> 00:01:17,413 Speaker 4: Will we have a device in every single car? How 23 00:01:17,413 --> 00:01:18,773 Speaker 4: do you see it? Say it working? 24 00:01:19,453 --> 00:01:21,893 Speaker 3: Well? Yes, It's really interesting because I see in the 25 00:01:21,932 --> 00:01:25,893 Speaker 3: minister's comments he talks about it unlocking congestion, charging and tolls. 26 00:01:26,413 --> 00:01:28,373 Speaker 3: So that means it's got to know where you are 27 00:01:28,652 --> 00:01:32,092 Speaker 3: when you were there. Okay, So that lends itself to ERUCH. 28 00:01:32,212 --> 00:01:35,773 Speaker 3: What happens in the heavy truck industry is they've got 29 00:01:35,813 --> 00:01:38,973 Speaker 3: something called UK. The advantages of that is that if 30 00:01:38,973 --> 00:01:41,452 Speaker 3: you go into a forest on the port, it turns 31 00:01:41,453 --> 00:01:43,572 Speaker 3: the ERUK off because they're not roads and you don't 32 00:01:43,572 --> 00:01:47,613 Speaker 3: pay for those off road journeys. Also, many of them 33 00:01:47,773 --> 00:01:52,013 Speaker 3: have a driver telemetrics which when the brakes applied, the 34 00:01:52,093 --> 00:01:54,373 Speaker 3: accelerator was used a number of other things that they 35 00:01:54,373 --> 00:01:57,133 Speaker 3: can use for driver training. The key issue around the 36 00:01:57,133 --> 00:01:59,653 Speaker 3: heavy industry is every one of those people who uses 37 00:01:59,653 --> 00:02:02,013 Speaker 3: it voluntary and you're going to put it into the 38 00:02:02,053 --> 00:02:04,213 Speaker 3: light fleet. I don't think everybody will want to have 39 00:02:04,333 --> 00:02:06,653 Speaker 3: it in because what our members tell us us that 40 00:02:06,653 --> 00:02:10,133 Speaker 3: they're consumed about some of the privacy issues having people 41 00:02:10,213 --> 00:02:12,453 Speaker 3: know where we are when we are, even though we 42 00:02:12,533 --> 00:02:15,493 Speaker 3: use our cell phones and off. In that case around 43 00:02:15,493 --> 00:02:17,573 Speaker 3: having your vehicles parked up and other things. That is 44 00:02:17,573 --> 00:02:19,133 Speaker 3: one of the issues that are really going to have 45 00:02:19,213 --> 00:02:21,453 Speaker 3: to be well considered by the government. 46 00:02:21,613 --> 00:02:24,253 Speaker 4: Yeah, can you see a situation where I can imagine 47 00:02:24,413 --> 00:02:26,373 Speaker 4: the government won't do this at launch, but you can 48 00:02:26,373 --> 00:02:28,893 Speaker 4: see a situation where a government comes in and says, well, 49 00:02:28,933 --> 00:02:32,093 Speaker 4: we're going to fire out speeding fines for anyone that 50 00:02:32,133 --> 00:02:35,573 Speaker 4: we detect on this device we're put into these cars instantly. 51 00:02:36,493 --> 00:02:38,253 Speaker 3: Well, look, there's a couple of things that have happened. 52 00:02:38,293 --> 00:02:39,972 Speaker 3: A lot of people don't realize that you've already got 53 00:02:39,972 --> 00:02:43,573 Speaker 3: devices in your car, particularly modern cars, that record all 54 00:02:43,573 --> 00:02:46,692 Speaker 3: this information. We've had insurance claims that I know have 55 00:02:47,133 --> 00:02:50,613 Speaker 3: declined because the person's told one story. We're written off 56 00:02:50,613 --> 00:02:53,532 Speaker 3: a vehicle. I mean, they download all the information off 57 00:02:53,532 --> 00:02:56,373 Speaker 3: the computer. They find a completely excessive speed on a 58 00:02:56,413 --> 00:02:59,852 Speaker 3: gravel road at secret, so they decline it. So already 59 00:03:00,213 --> 00:03:02,573 Speaker 3: all this information going. What it's going to be is 60 00:03:02,853 --> 00:03:05,533 Speaker 3: and what really needs to be managed is if you 61 00:03:05,532 --> 00:03:08,853 Speaker 3: look at the minister's press release, he's talking about private 62 00:03:08,933 --> 00:03:13,213 Speaker 3: companies running the system. That means you've got private companies 63 00:03:13,252 --> 00:03:16,453 Speaker 3: who've got your data and always that data is very 64 00:03:16,532 --> 00:03:18,933 Speaker 3: valuable and so how we manage that is going to 65 00:03:18,933 --> 00:03:19,972 Speaker 3: be one of the big challenges. 66 00:03:20,493 --> 00:03:22,533 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean if it slips over into even just 67 00:03:22,653 --> 00:03:27,053 Speaker 4: mentioning congestion charges as adding another sort of social engineering 68 00:03:27,133 --> 00:03:29,813 Speaker 4: aspect to it. Are there any EERUT systems working like 69 00:03:29,853 --> 00:03:30,692 Speaker 4: this overseas? 70 00:03:31,933 --> 00:03:35,013 Speaker 3: Look a little while ago I had a Japanese import 71 00:03:35,053 --> 00:03:38,733 Speaker 3: and I flipped down the sun visor and underneath it 72 00:03:38,773 --> 00:03:41,133 Speaker 3: was a little pod where they just plugged in the transponder. 73 00:03:41,413 --> 00:03:43,253 Speaker 3: And so when they drove around Tokyo where the car 74 00:03:43,333 --> 00:03:45,653 Speaker 3: came from, every time that we passed a toll we 75 00:03:45,853 --> 00:03:49,093 Speaker 3: passed onto a certain road, they had automatically accumulated the 76 00:03:49,173 --> 00:03:50,973 Speaker 3: charges and then they would get a bill at the 77 00:03:51,053 --> 00:03:53,693 Speaker 3: end of the month. So there are devices like that, 78 00:03:54,293 --> 00:03:56,853 Speaker 3: and Singapore uses it, in a couple of other countries, 79 00:03:57,053 --> 00:03:59,013 Speaker 3: a number of other countries just use it as well. 80 00:03:59,213 --> 00:04:03,172 Speaker 3: London around entry points into the city had those kinds 81 00:04:03,173 --> 00:04:07,213 Speaker 3: of devices as well. There are some positive surrenders though, 82 00:04:07,693 --> 00:04:10,293 Speaker 3: because if the build the system, they nearly they need 83 00:04:10,333 --> 00:04:13,973 Speaker 3: a future proofit because once you go to distance space, 84 00:04:14,133 --> 00:04:16,373 Speaker 3: it unlocks a lot of other things, like the way 85 00:04:16,413 --> 00:04:20,013 Speaker 3: we pay our acc Currently, this comes in at twenty 86 00:04:20,013 --> 00:04:22,973 Speaker 3: twenty seven. If you've got a motorcycle over seven hundred 87 00:04:22,973 --> 00:04:26,013 Speaker 3: and fifty c c's, you will be paying twelve dollars 88 00:04:26,053 --> 00:04:29,173 Speaker 3: shy of one thousand dollars a year to registered or 89 00:04:29,253 --> 00:04:33,173 Speaker 3: because of the AA ACC charges right now. I know 90 00:04:33,213 --> 00:04:35,013 Speaker 3: lots of guys have got two or three bikes, but 91 00:04:35,053 --> 00:04:38,653 Speaker 3: they only ride one and so you've got a big contribution. 92 00:04:38,853 --> 00:04:42,053 Speaker 3: So moving to a distance space for those motorcycles would 93 00:04:42,093 --> 00:04:45,493 Speaker 3: overcome that problem of them double dipping around it, and 94 00:04:45,533 --> 00:04:49,013 Speaker 3: so for multiple vehicle owners distance space will be a 95 00:04:49,053 --> 00:04:50,013 Speaker 3: really good thing. 96 00:04:50,413 --> 00:04:52,613 Speaker 2: But it's a good point, you know. I mean similar 97 00:04:52,613 --> 00:04:54,653 Speaker 2: with the WAFT system as well, Terry that if you're 98 00:04:54,653 --> 00:04:59,333 Speaker 2: going to have distance based charging for you know, distance 99 00:04:59,453 --> 00:05:01,893 Speaker 2: and then ACC surely the WAFT would come into that 100 00:05:02,053 --> 00:05:03,573 Speaker 2: as well. 101 00:05:03,373 --> 00:05:05,653 Speaker 3: Well. They had a doubt and the government just changed 102 00:05:05,693 --> 00:05:09,773 Speaker 3: the requirements for vintage cars, those cars over forty years 103 00:05:09,973 --> 00:05:14,053 Speaker 3: to go from six monthly to twelve monthly because not 104 00:05:14,133 --> 00:05:15,653 Speaker 3: a pride and enjoy that most of the owners have 105 00:05:15,773 --> 00:05:18,333 Speaker 3: got them. They're well maintained, they don't do the distances 106 00:05:18,333 --> 00:05:20,493 Speaker 3: that other cars do and have a lower wall on 107 00:05:20,493 --> 00:05:24,493 Speaker 3: a fitness failure rate. The AA thinks that distance traveled 108 00:05:24,613 --> 00:05:27,533 Speaker 3: is a better indicator of where and tear on a vehicle, 109 00:05:27,973 --> 00:05:30,933 Speaker 3: not age regardless. You can have a brand new car 110 00:05:31,573 --> 00:05:33,813 Speaker 3: and have a three year want and it could be 111 00:05:33,853 --> 00:05:36,813 Speaker 3: doing thirty thousand kilometers a year because it's an a 112 00:05:36,933 --> 00:05:40,133 Speaker 3: fleet or whatever, and it's noble atomic, it's inspected, it's 113 00:05:40,173 --> 00:05:43,253 Speaker 3: done ninety thousand, versus something that could be the forty 114 00:05:43,333 --> 00:05:45,213 Speaker 3: years old gets done once a year. It's only done 115 00:05:45,213 --> 00:05:45,773 Speaker 3: four thousand. 116 00:05:46,053 --> 00:05:48,452 Speaker 2: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we are talking 117 00:05:48,493 --> 00:05:52,253 Speaker 2: with Terry Collins. He's the principal advisor at the AA 118 00:05:52,653 --> 00:05:53,293 Speaker 2: and I'm Terry. 119 00:05:53,333 --> 00:05:54,613 Speaker 4: Look not for the first time in my life, I'm 120 00:05:54,613 --> 00:05:56,373 Speaker 4: a little bit confused. I'm just going to ask you 121 00:05:56,813 --> 00:06:00,573 Speaker 4: a question that you've kind of seemi asked. But it's 122 00:06:00,613 --> 00:06:03,333 Speaker 4: not a pay in advance and display system like Diesel 123 00:06:03,373 --> 00:06:05,973 Speaker 4: Myles system. Now, So just to clarify, do you think 124 00:06:05,973 --> 00:06:08,773 Speaker 4: the government is talking about a physical device in every 125 00:06:08,853 --> 00:06:11,653 Speaker 4: car or is it cameras on the road or is 126 00:06:11,653 --> 00:06:14,253 Speaker 4: it just something that's marked off at warrant a fitness 127 00:06:14,333 --> 00:06:16,893 Speaker 4: or rigio against your adometer. 128 00:06:17,853 --> 00:06:20,773 Speaker 3: Well, look, the details aren't there yet, but let's kind 129 00:06:20,773 --> 00:06:25,173 Speaker 3: of explore some of those options. If it's around checking itself, 130 00:06:25,213 --> 00:06:28,173 Speaker 3: declaring it well, that's not going to unlock the congestion 131 00:06:28,253 --> 00:06:31,413 Speaker 3: and the tolling. So that announcement makes me believe that 132 00:06:31,453 --> 00:06:34,333 Speaker 3: they are thinking of some kind of physical device in 133 00:06:34,373 --> 00:06:38,452 Speaker 3: your vehicle that plots of distances that you're going thereon 134 00:06:38,533 --> 00:06:41,093 Speaker 3: loves the rub because we've got modern cars that have 135 00:06:41,173 --> 00:06:43,573 Speaker 3: got a lot of that data already, but everage age 136 00:06:43,613 --> 00:06:46,373 Speaker 3: of their fleets about forty years before it leaves it. 137 00:06:46,693 --> 00:06:49,133 Speaker 3: So we've got our whole cars in there. And if 138 00:06:49,173 --> 00:06:51,333 Speaker 3: you think even if there's a million or two million, 139 00:06:51,333 --> 00:06:52,813 Speaker 3: and you've got to spend at least a couple of 140 00:06:52,893 --> 00:06:56,613 Speaker 3: hundred bucks to get the thing put in, and then 141 00:06:56,653 --> 00:06:59,213 Speaker 3: for the whole fleet, what's going to be the monitoring costs? 142 00:06:59,253 --> 00:07:01,253 Speaker 3: How are they going to monitor it? Is it going 143 00:07:01,333 --> 00:07:03,333 Speaker 3: to be real time? And I suspect that would be 144 00:07:03,373 --> 00:07:07,773 Speaker 3: difficult expensive. Imagine four million vehicles trailing around getting tracked 145 00:07:07,773 --> 00:07:09,573 Speaker 3: every month. We know what our phone deals are like, 146 00:07:10,693 --> 00:07:13,973 Speaker 3: so look, we're waiting more detail, but you've really hit 147 00:07:13,973 --> 00:07:17,253 Speaker 3: the right kind of question around this, given that they 148 00:07:17,333 --> 00:07:20,173 Speaker 3: if they do put these transponded devices in it, you've 149 00:07:20,173 --> 00:07:24,773 Speaker 3: got both the initial and installation cost, but then you've 150 00:07:24,773 --> 00:07:27,373 Speaker 3: got your ongoing monthly or whatever the time period is 151 00:07:27,573 --> 00:07:29,493 Speaker 3: monitoring costs that go with it. 152 00:07:31,053 --> 00:07:33,453 Speaker 4: Yeah, And do we really want the government to know 153 00:07:33,573 --> 00:07:37,133 Speaker 4: exactly where we are in our car in real time 154 00:07:37,373 --> 00:07:41,213 Speaker 4: and what speed we're traveling at and exactly where we are. 155 00:07:41,333 --> 00:07:43,573 Speaker 4: Is that the kind of information we want the government? 156 00:07:43,613 --> 00:07:45,973 Speaker 4: And as you said before, also a private firm because 157 00:07:46,013 --> 00:07:50,613 Speaker 4: they're they want to take it out to private companies 158 00:07:50,813 --> 00:07:54,253 Speaker 4: for the the tech. So is that something that we 159 00:07:54,293 --> 00:07:55,373 Speaker 4: want You think. 160 00:07:55,493 --> 00:07:58,333 Speaker 3: Well, too late, it's already here because either time you 161 00:07:58,333 --> 00:07:59,173 Speaker 3: your car with your cell. 162 00:07:59,053 --> 00:08:03,853 Speaker 4: Phone, we've voluntarily done it, haven't we. 163 00:08:04,373 --> 00:08:09,333 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, we've voluntarily done it. So here's yeah. Look, 164 00:08:09,453 --> 00:08:11,133 Speaker 3: I mean these are the challenges that are facing us 165 00:08:11,133 --> 00:08:13,773 Speaker 3: around it. Obviously, if you want to automate the system, 166 00:08:14,053 --> 00:08:15,893 Speaker 3: and that's what the indication for the government is, they 167 00:08:15,933 --> 00:08:17,973 Speaker 3: want to automate it, make it really used. Okay, this 168 00:08:18,053 --> 00:08:20,453 Speaker 3: is what you've done, here's your bill. But then you 169 00:08:20,493 --> 00:08:22,693 Speaker 3: start thinking about these kind of vehicles like a nineteen 170 00:08:22,813 --> 00:08:25,493 Speaker 3: ten seeds no veteran card. Do you want to transport 171 00:08:25,573 --> 00:08:27,773 Speaker 3: us sitting in it for the add distance it's going. 172 00:08:27,813 --> 00:08:29,893 Speaker 3: So there's going to have to be some practical exemptions 173 00:08:30,293 --> 00:08:33,413 Speaker 3: in some ways around it. Now, the data. I think 174 00:08:33,533 --> 00:08:35,852 Speaker 3: is we all the privacy and those issues arrive and 175 00:08:35,973 --> 00:08:38,573 Speaker 3: you get a bill for x amount of kilometers an hour. 176 00:08:39,732 --> 00:08:43,052 Speaker 3: In some ways for the private could unlock like the 177 00:08:43,173 --> 00:08:45,493 Speaker 3: fringe benefits when you use the car privately when you 178 00:08:45,573 --> 00:08:48,773 Speaker 3: don't when you're off road for farmers, no driving around 179 00:08:48,773 --> 00:08:51,493 Speaker 3: the farm. I'm not paying any money back on the road. 180 00:08:51,533 --> 00:08:54,133 Speaker 3: I'm paying some money because I'm contributing. There's a whole 181 00:08:54,173 --> 00:08:58,013 Speaker 3: bunch of subtleties and nuances that have to be explored further, 182 00:08:59,012 --> 00:09:03,333 Speaker 3: given the issues around privacy, the cost of installing, the 183 00:09:03,372 --> 00:09:05,413 Speaker 3: cost of monitoring, and then the benefits from it. 184 00:09:05,892 --> 00:09:07,853 Speaker 2: With all that we've chatted about here, is it fear 185 00:09:07,892 --> 00:09:10,573 Speaker 2: to say this is almost a bit like a trojan 186 00:09:10,612 --> 00:09:12,933 Speaker 2: horse that you bring in the system like this that 187 00:09:13,012 --> 00:09:17,013 Speaker 2: monitors everybody, and we all think it's for road infrastructure, 188 00:09:17,132 --> 00:09:19,372 Speaker 2: But as the Minister said, there's other things that they 189 00:09:19,372 --> 00:09:22,453 Speaker 2: can utilize the system for. And to me that's a 190 00:09:22,453 --> 00:09:24,252 Speaker 2: bit too far that if we can all agree on 191 00:09:24,293 --> 00:09:26,892 Speaker 2: a ruck system to pay for road infrastructure, but then 192 00:09:26,933 --> 00:09:30,133 Speaker 2: to utilize that for something like congestion charges. No, no, 193 00:09:30,173 --> 00:09:31,693 Speaker 2: you can't. You can't play that game. 194 00:09:32,413 --> 00:09:34,653 Speaker 3: Well, you're thinking about GC that they brought it in, 195 00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:37,052 Speaker 3: it's only going to be ten percent, exactly twelve and 196 00:09:37,093 --> 00:09:40,293 Speaker 3: a half percent. It was fifteen percent. So you kind 197 00:09:40,293 --> 00:09:42,612 Speaker 3: of hear these people. One government makes it can't make 198 00:09:42,653 --> 00:09:45,133 Speaker 3: a commitment for future governments. We will never use this 199 00:09:45,252 --> 00:09:48,852 Speaker 3: for compliance or enforcement issues. That's a point in time 200 00:09:49,492 --> 00:09:51,293 Speaker 3: in the future there might be a different view where 201 00:09:51,293 --> 00:09:53,013 Speaker 3: they decide, hey, we've got all the data and it's 202 00:09:53,053 --> 00:09:55,933 Speaker 3: do it. I will tell you the story I mentioned earlier. 203 00:09:56,852 --> 00:09:59,852 Speaker 3: People don't realize a guy and a trade in a 204 00:09:59,892 --> 00:10:02,773 Speaker 3: fifty two thousand dollars vehicle made an insurance claim because 205 00:10:02,813 --> 00:10:04,492 Speaker 3: he wrote it off, said he was on a road. 206 00:10:04,773 --> 00:10:07,093 Speaker 3: When they got the computer information out, it was founding 207 00:10:07,132 --> 00:10:09,573 Speaker 3: one hundred and forty killing me on the gravel road 208 00:10:09,612 --> 00:10:11,652 Speaker 3: and rolled it. Because you had not told the truth 209 00:10:11,693 --> 00:10:15,853 Speaker 3: to the insurance company, they declined it. So there's there's 210 00:10:15,892 --> 00:10:18,412 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of potential things like when people look 211 00:10:18,413 --> 00:10:19,933 Speaker 3: at the bill and go, how come you done all 212 00:10:19,973 --> 00:10:22,213 Speaker 3: that distance? Or how come you didn't do all that distance? 213 00:10:23,852 --> 00:10:25,733 Speaker 3: It is getting arrayed in where you're going to have a 214 00:10:25,732 --> 00:10:28,053 Speaker 3: bit more monitoring on it, and how that is managed 215 00:10:28,173 --> 00:10:29,292 Speaker 3: is one of the key issues. 216 00:10:29,653 --> 00:10:31,333 Speaker 4: Yes, thank you so much Terry Collins. 217 00:10:31,852 --> 00:10:34,492 Speaker 1: For more from US Talks ed B Listen live on 218 00:10:34,573 --> 00:10:37,533 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 219 00:10:37,573 --> 00:10:40,132 Speaker 1: you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio