1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: A new study is. 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: Shedding light on the changing landscape of New Zealand's party 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: drug scene. The annual New Zealand Drug Trends Survey, completed 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: by more than eight thousand people nationwide, shows that ketamine 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: is rapidly growing in popularity. 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Price data puts. 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: It among the more affordable options at around two hundred 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: dollars a gram overseas, The UK has dubbed young people 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: Generation K, while ketamine related deaths rose twentyfold since twenty fourteen. 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: Despite years of warning from. 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: Health experts about the risks, ketamine is now gaining popularity 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: here in New Zealand. 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: So what do we do now? 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 3: Today? 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: On the Front Page, Professor Chris Welkins is with us 19 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: to unpack what's behind this trend and what it means 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: for New Zealand. 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: So, Chris, what. 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,919 Speaker 2: Stood out to you in this year's New Zealand Drug 23 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: Trends Survey results? 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 3: Well, I think the first thing is the decline in 25 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 3: prices of drugs, and I talked previously about what happened 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 3: with methamphetamine, but also with MD and a lot of 27 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: the other drugs as well. That as we're in this 28 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 3: cost of living crisis and the price has been going up, 29 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: all these illegal drugs seem to be falling year on year, 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: and once we adjusted those for the considerable inflation that's 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: been going on in the recent years, some of those 32 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: prices of those drugs like meth and MD may have 33 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: halved in price, which is quite shocking. 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: Well, what do you think is driving the drop in price? 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: Well, that's of course a really good question and it's 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: not easy to answer. I think the first thing to 37 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 3: note is that the drug mark it's you know, a 38 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: lot of people talk about drug markets as controlled by 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: organized crime or gangs and they can set the price 40 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 3: at a very high level. But I think these price 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: walls across the board show that this is actually a 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: competitive market. And my backgrounds in economics, so it's really 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: nice to see the interplay of supply and demand and 44 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: that this follows that kind of process. So in terms 45 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: of meth mvietamine, it seems to be that we're under 46 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: there's a lot of more price competition in terms of 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 3: production and trafficking, so we're moving from a market that 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 3: used to get supplied from Asia and Southeast Asia. Now 49 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: we've got a new bunch of suppliers Mexican drug cartels 50 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: via Canada, and so there's a little bit of price 51 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 3: competition there. And the Pacific route where the myth from 52 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: North America comes from, is probably a little bit more 53 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: convenient for us than the previous run from a WITHDMA. 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 3: There's been some recovery and manufacture since COVID, so that 55 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: seemed to really affect MD production, which is mostly in 56 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: Netherlands and Belgium. But there also seems to be some 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: diversification of locations of production, so now you can find 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: production in non traditional countries in Europe, Spain, and also 59 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: now more production in Asia. 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: How does this year's data, I suppose, compare to what 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: you've seen over previous years. 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: Well, I think, as I said, that price decline has 63 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 3: just reinforced year after year, and that's been something that's 64 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: been very interesting to watch. But the other big things 65 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: are we're seeing more diversity in terms of drugs just 66 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: year on years. So we'll probably talk a little about 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: ketamine is emerging as one of the kind of popular 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 3: party drugs and availability and US has become much more 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 3: stable compared to md M A and cocaine and then 70 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: the rise of cocaine. Of course, that is that's been 71 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: a big change in New Zealand. But the digitalization of 72 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 3: drug markets is something that we've been investigating for a 73 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: number of years and it's something we're focusing on just 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: moving just you know, just with everything we've moved from 75 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: physical retail to this online retail platforms, and the drug 76 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 3: markets basically followed that, and that has some wide reaching 77 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 3: implications that we haven't yet discovered. 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, well you mentioned ketamine there. 79 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: It's becoming a stable part of New Zealand's party drug scene. 80 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: I suppose it's I mean, could you define what is 81 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: a party drug as opposed to any other drug? 82 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's an unfortunate term in that it's just 83 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 3: that I think it's a group of drugs to socio 84 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: with dance music, and they're kind of as opposed to 85 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: more kind of introspective like LSD or or stupefying like 86 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: a little bit like cannabis. So it's really associated with 87 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 3: a particular dance party culture and that context of you know, 88 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: dancing for a longer time and socializing within clubs. Ketamine 89 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: is it's a little on the face of it, so 90 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: it's a disassociate and it's anesthetic and lucigen so on 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: the face of it, it's kind of a little bit 92 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: hard to associate it with that, but it appears to 93 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: be in that kind of subculture. 94 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: Why do you think ketamine is gaining so much traction? 95 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I mean that's a good question. I think 96 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: drugs sometimes just fit within the sign of the times. 97 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: So you know, you think cocaine the eighties and opioids 98 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 3: in the seventies. I think to some extent, ketamine fits 99 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: in with some of the things that are going on 100 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 3: in the world, so needing to disassociate from all the 101 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: bad news that we're always hearing, and so it fits 102 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: within that that somehow. In terms of demand, but I 103 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: think on the supply side as well, it's just ramped up. 104 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: So now it's more produced within the Golden triag or 105 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: in Asia, organized crime have become more involved in it, 106 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 3: so the volume of supply has gone up. But ketamine 107 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: has been around for a long long time, but it's 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: it has been in the past really limited to kind 109 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: of particular subcultures or particular countries like Hong Kong and 110 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 3: things like that where and it's been a kind of 111 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 3: an outlier, but increasingly it's become more mainstream within the 112 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: dance party scene. I think you might have heard of 113 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: k crumps that another side effect, really really bad stomach 114 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 3: pains that can happen if use ket repeatedly. 115 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 4: It's been compared to childbirth pain. It's really horrible. 116 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 5: I remember the first time I had it, I went 117 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 5: to hospital because I had no idea what its pain was. 118 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: But Rachel was telling me how a lot of people 119 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: end up in this catch twenty two sort of situation. 120 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 4: But if you're experiencing those cramps and the pains and 121 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 4: some of the physical effects, then actually the only thing 122 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 4: that really helps a bit is to take more ketamin. 123 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 4: And although it's not physically addictive, that is where the 124 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,679 Speaker 4: addiction comes in, because it does help ease those cramps 125 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 4: and ease those pains. 126 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: Well. 127 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: Ketamine has been. 128 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: A huge issue in the UK for years now. I've 129 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: seen some horrifying documentaries online on YouTube where you know 130 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: there's been a huge increase in young people attending specialist 131 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: treatment services with problems related. 132 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: To long term kidamine use. 133 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: What are some of the problems that come with it. 134 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: So long term chronic use can cause a number of 135 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: problems to do with your bladder, so that can really 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: damage it over time and a lot of that and 137 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: that sometimes that's irreversible, so and it can be really debilitating. 138 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: So people should re really educate themselves and understand that 139 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: frequent use can be very damaging to the bladder and 140 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: uriny and renal functioning. Also the psychological problems sometimes as well, 141 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: and also when it's used in combination with other depressants 142 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: like alcohol, it can get very dangerous. But overall it 143 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: tends to be on the more dangerous side because it's 144 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: a disassociate, so it numbs pain and means that you're 145 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: not aware of your surroundings. So people might recall that 146 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: Matthew Perry died from using ketamine because in his sparkle 147 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: in it, and that just illustrates the danger from accident 148 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 3: and harming yourself just because you're not aware of what's 149 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 3: going on with you with your surroundings. So that's more 150 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: of a cute kind of risk. 151 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: And I suppose it probably comes as no surprise that 152 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: high usage has been detected in Wellington and Otago. 153 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so, as I said, I mean, because the 154 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 3: effects are kind of not exactly what you'd expect to 155 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 3: want to want in many party situations, dance parties, going out. 156 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 3: So I do still think it is a bit of 157 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: a niche drug in that sense of the effects. So yeah, 158 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 3: it is interesting to see the differences in regional effects. 159 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 3: So I target you could explain that by students who 160 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: are most open to trying new drugs, particularly in dance 161 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: party situations. The Wellington one, I don't know, you can 162 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: pick your reason for that one, but I guess maybe 163 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: people are more perhaps anxious about the world and wanting 164 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 3: to be separated out for it for a moment, get 165 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: some relief. 166 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: How do you think the diversification of so called party 167 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: drugs affects harm reduction efforts in alta? 168 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: How do we target these different things? 169 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it just makes it more challenging because it's more 170 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: difficult to educate people because we're dealing with more than 171 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: one or two substances. Ketamine is just visually, it's very 172 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: you know, it's a synthetic drug, so it comes in 173 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 3: that generic powder perl form, So that really inhibits the 174 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: ability to understand how open it is or whether it's 175 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: in fact ketamine, But generally I think it's just that 176 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 3: people are often unaware of the risks and is just 177 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: more challenging to educate them, and that's why drug checking 178 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: is really important. Also, people should think about the kind 179 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: of they're in when they decide to try ketamine, because 180 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: there's the K hole phenomenon which can be really mentally 181 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 3: health challenging. So they should be in a good, good 182 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: frame of mind and have a lot of people around 183 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 3: them that will look after them and don't combine ketamine 184 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: with depressants or stimulants can also be a problem as well. 185 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 3: So I guess it's that story that there's a lot 186 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 3: to learn and there's a lot of risks, so drawing 187 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: on education good sources of reduction, and then using drug 188 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 3: checking if you can, and then just common sense around 189 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: who you have around you and how you're feeling at 190 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: the time. 191 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: You mentioned the term K hole, and that's obviously something 192 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: that's quite a common term when it comes to ketamine. 193 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: What is a K hole? 194 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: It's kind of like a paralyzing impact where often you're 195 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: just stuck in a a where you can't talk or 196 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: have trouble moving where essentially you're just so deep within 197 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: your subconscious that you're almost in a canatonic state, and 198 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: it can be pretty terrifying, so and disturbing, particularly if 199 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 3: you from mental health perspective. 200 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: Do you think that there needs to be an attitude 201 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 2: change towards so called party drugs? Like I have young 202 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 2: people thinking, well, it's not math, you know, that's. 203 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: A heroine, that's a bad one. But party drugs. 204 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: Do you think we need, you know, societal change towards 205 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: how we feel about them. 206 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: I think it's one of the problems with drug use 207 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: is an issue is there's often no middle ground, so 208 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: it's either a polarization between you know, don't try it. 209 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: It's the risks are out of you know scope, or 210 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: that you know everyone's doing it and I can just 211 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: try it and I'm going to be safe. So I 212 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: think there is a need to be, as I said, 213 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 3: people be educated about the risks. But that's really difficult 214 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: to get across to young people because it's a bit 215 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: like your eighteen year old son coming to you and 216 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: wanting to buy a motorbike. So you know, as a parent, 217 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: you can know them all about that risk and the 218 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: risks are very real. But there's a good chance that 219 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: a young person is not going to listen to you 220 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: or thinks that they're bulletproof, and they're not going to 221 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 3: be the person that's armed. We're a little bit in 222 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 3: that space. So that's why harm reduction and drug checking 223 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: are good things, because even if your son's determined to 224 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 3: get this motorbike, you want to, you know, and you 225 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: can't convince them otherwise that you want to make sure 226 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: that they're willing, wearing a helmet, they've got the safety gear, 227 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: and hopefully you buy them the left powerful motorbike, and 228 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 3: then you just hope for the you know, your hope 229 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: for the best outcome, and that they will eventually understand 230 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: the risk themselves and stop use. 231 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 5: It Basically just shreds the bladder line in and that 232 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 5: causes your bladder to shrink or be sunken, which then 233 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 5: makes a capacity a hell of a lot smaller. So 234 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 5: my capacity, a female bladder should hold five hundred million liters, 235 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 5: and I think a male is six hundred and mine 236 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 5: it's worse was holding twenty milli liters, So as you 237 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 5: can imagine, that's well, that's a lot of weir and 238 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 5: my bladder was working way more than it needed to 239 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 5: do so, and that's why you have the urgency, because 240 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 5: your bladders then shrunk and your wian all the time. 241 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 5: And sorry, can I just go for a quickly. 242 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: I know that we mentioned keddamine in the UK, and 243 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: I keep mentioning that because they've had this issue there 244 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: for over a decad now, they've actually called this generation 245 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: Generation K. Is there anything over there that academics or 246 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: health experts are doing to try and alleviate the pressures 247 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: of ketamine on young people. 248 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: I think one of the important things with ketamine is 249 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: at this stage is really good education and education that 250 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 3: people can relate to and they trust because some of 251 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: as we've just talked about, some of the physical and 252 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 3: mental health risks of ketamine are very rare, particularly in 253 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: white frequency use and chronic use, but also acute accident 254 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 3: and overdose. And the problem with new drugs is people, 255 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: of course, they want to try new things, and the 256 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 3: reputation is i within their peers, so no one's had 257 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: any problems yet or there's been no record of dependency, 258 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 3: so it's very easy to be sucked into the idea 259 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: that this is going to be harm free, risk free, thing. 260 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: So as soon as you can get trusted information to 261 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: the user group about some of these risks, I mean 262 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: often people will make really you know, can make more 263 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: informed decisions about that and you know, understand the kind 264 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: of behavior they should be avoiding and how to look 265 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: after themselves. 266 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: You mentioned before, and the highlight the report highlights an 267 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: increased buying of drugs via social media and the darknet. 268 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: We've done this a few times on this podcast before. 269 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: We've spoken to our investigative reporter here, Michael Mora, about 270 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: buying drugs on places like Facebook Marketplace. I mean, how 271 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: significant is the shift of New Zealand's drug market to online. 272 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: Well, I think this is going to be one of 273 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: the you know, maybe the challenge in minimizing harm from 274 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: drug use in the future. It's as revolutionary as if 275 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: you remember, you know, retail in the nineteen nineties versus 276 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: retail in twenty twenty six. That it's that kind of 277 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: paradigm shift in how you get to know about products, 278 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 3: how you buy them, who you have contact with, and 279 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 3: the kind of range of products you can purchase. And 280 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: so now we can buy, purchase, purchase, you know, clothes 281 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: from all over the world and products from all over 282 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 3: the world and have them delivered to our door versus 283 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: having to you know, have one or two stores and 284 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: your shit and having to go down there and physically 285 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: purchase it. So it's it's really revolutionary, I think, and 286 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: I mean it's not all bad news. I think there 287 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: is some real opportunities to do really good harm reduction 288 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: and harm minimization online. And also, but essentially unfortunately, social 289 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 3: media lends itself to drugs pry in a number of 290 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: ways that the networking is very powerful way to sell drugs, 291 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: the animinity in terms of apps and things like Snapchat, 292 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: and also the access to young people. And but some 293 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 3: of the new risks are we're all familiar that all 294 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 3: our social media use and phone use now is driven 295 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 3: by algorithms, so and there's no there's no control over 296 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: the content we get most of the time. So once 297 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: we start looking for something, we're going to get a 298 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 3: lot of the algorithms going to generate a lot of 299 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 3: content for us. And so if you're a very young person, 300 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: you know that can be very dangerous and you know 301 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 3: might be you're not, but it might not be aware 302 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: of the risks involved, and that somewhere down the line, 303 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: you've got to you're gonna pick up these drugs from 304 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: a physical market or meet somebody you know physically who's 305 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: going to give you the drugs, and that you might, 306 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 3: you know, have no idea about the effects of these drugs. 307 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 3: So in previous generations you had to physically be in 308 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: a peer network of group of the cool people in 309 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: the cast to find out about something, and that really 310 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 3: limited access for a whole lot of people. But now 311 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 3: it's very much democratized in terms of you know, anyone 312 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 3: can see this content. 313 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: How do we stop that, how do we stop that 314 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: from happening. 315 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: Well, it's just one dimension of the whole social media 316 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 3: harm debate that we've had, and a whole lot of 317 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 3: other to do with a whole lot other things like 318 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 3: you know, gambling as well and all kinds of addictive behavior. 319 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 3: So it's not easy to answer. And you know, you 320 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: can see some of the things like banning social media 321 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: for under sixteen's in Australia, but it's a very complex 322 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: question because you know, there are some clear benefits of 323 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: social media as well that you don't want to take 324 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: away from young people. 325 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris. 326 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 3: Yep, Thank you. 327 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: Ye that's it for this episode of the Front Page. 328 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 329 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: coverage at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page 330 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 2: is hosted and produced by me Chelsea daniels Kine. Dicky 331 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: is our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, 332 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: and our executive producer. 333 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: Is Jane Ye. 334 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: Follow the Front Page on the iheartapp or wherever you 335 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and join us next time for another 336 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 2: look beyond the headlines.