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Speaker 1: This Tuesday morning, the Prime Minister Crystopher Luxmbury, good morning

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Speaker 1: to you with you several things to cover off. One.

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Speaker 1: I watched your press conference yesterday with Chambers. He seems

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Speaker 1: effusive these days in what he and he said so

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Speaker 1: in what he's allowed to do, what he's achieving, and

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Speaker 1: he seemed to indicate at the end of his brief

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Speaker 1: comments yesterday that he's seemingly looking to you for more

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Speaker 1: law to do more. Is that the impression I got

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Speaker 1: or not? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, look at me first and foremost.

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Speaker 2: I think he's a great arm he's doing a great

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Speaker 2: job as Police Commissioner. He's really loved by the frontline staff.

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Speaker 2: I think you've got good alignment between the Prime Minister,

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Speaker 2: Minister Mitchell, and obviously the Police Commissioner. What we're wanting

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Speaker 2: to do is they feel backed up, you know, And

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Speaker 2: for the first time, what we were talking about yesterday

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Speaker 2: was that gang patch laws that we passed back in

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Speaker 2: October that gives a lot of permission to go after

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Speaker 2: the illegal guns and the drugs.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: As a result, there's more that we want to do,

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Speaker 2: frankly in the firearm prohibition orders and illegal guns and

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Speaker 2: give them a few more powers there and that will

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Speaker 2: come in due course. But you know, the trek is

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Speaker 2: that you want the police backed by a government and

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Speaker 2: actually empowered to go after and disrupt gangs, which is

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Speaker 2: what's been happening. And yeah, I thought it was interesting

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Speaker 2: over summer, very few stories that we'd normally get about gangs.

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Speaker 2: I went down to the to the to christ Church

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Speaker 2: where they'd gone and smashed up the common cero so beautifully.

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Speaker 2: And we want to keep keep encouraging that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Andrew Bailey, has he got form?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Has he done this before?

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Speaker 2: Well, we had the incident at the end of last

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Speaker 2: year which we spoke very a that outside.

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Speaker 1: Is there something wrong with him?

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Speaker 2: No? No, I think he got this wrong. As he said,

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Speaker 2: he went through it, he looked at his interaction, didn't

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Speaker 2: feel it met a standards and the expectations that we

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Speaker 2: had set before and what he sets for himself more importantly,

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Speaker 2: and got on to me, you know, proactively came forward

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Speaker 2: and resigned to me very late on Friday.

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Speaker 1: Somebody texted me earlier this morning. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: fair point, and that is that he's got a life

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Speaker 1: outside of politics. As indeed, you did what sort of

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Speaker 1: I mean, if that's the sort of crap you got

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Speaker 1: to put up with, I know what he did as

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Speaker 1: aunt acceptable again, but if that's the sort of crap

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Speaker 1: you got to put up with, why bother?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think you know, he's someone who feels

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Speaker 2: very strongly about parliamentary process. He likes making good law.

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Speaker 2: He actually he is very energized around the tasks around

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Speaker 2: you know, complicated legislation. He's actually, you know, gets gets

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Speaker 2: and that's what turns him on. So I think that's

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Speaker 2: a really good thing. That's why he's still got a

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Speaker 2: good contribution to make, you know, as a local MP,

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Speaker 2: but also in parliament through the select committee processes, all

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Speaker 2: of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Am I just too woke? Not? No, No, I am not.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't understand what the problem is he.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what he did wasn't right. I get that,

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Speaker 1: But but we've lost a person who presumably you at

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Speaker 1: one point thought was good enough to get cabinet.

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Speaker 2: Look, honestly, he was doing a very good job, making

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Speaker 2: good contributions and two very technical portfolios. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 2: got some will carry that on, but look, the reality

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Speaker 2: is you've got to have some standards, Mike, And you

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Speaker 2: know I watched the last lot go through a series

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Speaker 2: of ministers and it wasn't even clear. It was clear

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Speaker 2: in this case. And importantly, he recognized that he hadn't

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Speaker 2: met his own standards and that's his decision. So I

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Speaker 2: respect that.

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Speaker 1: Would you, because you've got yourself in the usual trouble

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Speaker 1: with you being too nice? Would you have sacked him

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Speaker 1: if he hadn't offered to resign?

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Speaker 2: Well, hypothetical he did resign.

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Speaker 1: No, I know that, But just answer the question, well,

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Speaker 1: would you have said.

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Speaker 2: Well, he didn't meet the expectations of a minister, so.

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Speaker 1: Was it a seckable offense? Well?

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Speaker 2: I think give him. How clear we've been on the

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Speaker 2: first instance about why?

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Speaker 1: Just answered the question, Well, this is why you get

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Speaker 1: yourself reputationally in so much trouble. Would you have sacked him?

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Speaker 2: You saw, No, I could say, yeah, he didn't meet

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Speaker 2: the expectations I have ministers, so you would have secked him.

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Speaker 2: I didn't need to because he resigned.

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Speaker 1: I see what you're doing here. I don't.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, but you're talking about a specific case, right.

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Speaker 2: Would you have said, have I done a good job,

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Speaker 2: laying down expectations of my minister's ye.

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Speaker 1: But the next step is really simple. If he hadn't,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad he offered to resign, because I'll tell you what,

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Speaker 1: if he didn't, I would have sacked him.

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Speaker 2: He wouldn't have met my expectations as a minister.

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Speaker 1: But why are you saying it that way? I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what I mean. If if he hadn't resigned,

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Speaker 2: I would have I would have would have made an intervinch.

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Speaker 1: I would have Actually, yeah, I would have sacked him.

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Speaker 2: But there's an issue here, which is what is it?

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Speaker 2: The issue is that most importantly, the Sadars are really

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Speaker 2: clear of my ministers. They know the senates I operate within.

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Speaker 2: Whenever we have any personnel issues. I think we've acted

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Speaker 2: incredibly decisively. But what I'd say in this case is

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Speaker 2: I laid down, after the last instance, crystal clear expectations.

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Speaker 2: He reassured me there wouldn't be another incident. He knew

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Speaker 2: there was an incident. He then made that decision himself.

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Speaker 2: It didn't mean my expectations that didn't meet us.

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Speaker 1: How many words you're using to explain this, this is

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Speaker 1: this is why you're in trouble in the polls, people

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Speaker 1: want something decisive and so look if you wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: sacked him, so so either way, I don't care. But

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Speaker 1: all people want from you, the Prime Minister, to go.

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Speaker 1: This is my expectation. I'm glad he resigned because if

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Speaker 1: you didn't, I would have sacked him.

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Speaker 2: Well that's exactly what has happened here, though, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I mean like he has resigned and I've said to

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Speaker 2: him he hasn't met his own expectations, which is important, right.

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Speaker 2: I want the I want ministers to understand I saw example,

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Speaker 2: he can't do his own conclusion.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic good or for doing that, But are you the

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Speaker 1: sort of per that would have sacked him? I think

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Speaker 1: he has seen him to that conclusion.

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Speaker 2: I think you've seen me act very decisively on personel

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Speaker 2: issues and something I've done all my life. You know

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Speaker 2: it's credible.

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Speaker 1: I know that still doesn't answer that. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get bogged down on this. Why can't you be

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Speaker 1: decisive enough to simply say I would have sacked.

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Speaker 2: In this case or not. In this case he resigned

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Speaker 2: and if they hadn't happened, I would have then been

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Speaker 2: involved with that and would have made a decision to

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Speaker 2: say they didn't meet myke expectations, and that would which

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Speaker 2: would have led to what it would have led to

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Speaker 2: him losing the role.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, So he would have been he would have been,

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Speaker 1: he would have been devoted and demoted, He would have

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Speaker 1: the ministry would have been taken away right sacked. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you you've made a complete meal of this,

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Speaker 1: the cooks deal in China. First of all, China, have

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Speaker 1: we found out specifically what they were doing here and

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Speaker 1: why no, we haven't been informed by them. What they're

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Speaker 1: doing here is doing exercises. They have a destroyer, they

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Speaker 1: have a frigate, and they also have a refueler with them.

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Speaker 1: That is different from what we've seen before. We've seen

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Speaker 1: research vessels do silar sort of navigations. It is completely

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Speaker 1: legal with an international law. It is completely within the

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Speaker 1: un conventional.

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Speaker 2: Law of the sea. But our problem in frustration has

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Speaker 2: been that we would like a bit more advanced Notice.

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Speaker 2: Normally you get twenty four to forty eight hours. Notice

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Speaker 2: it's a very busy set of airway, as you well know,

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Speaker 2: but we've had you know, that's the reality of it

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Speaker 2: is that they are completely entitled. We use the same

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Speaker 2: laws when we move our assets around the shold as well.

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Speaker 1: Is their behavior acceptable?

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Speaker 2: What's clear is that it's got much more benign, much

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Speaker 2: more competitive within the Pacific Ocean. You've seen that with

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Speaker 2: the COX, You've seen that with this increase and change

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Speaker 2: around much heavier military and more powerful vessels coming through.

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Speaker 1: But it is their behavior acceptable?

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Speaker 2: Well, they're entitled to that. You know. What you're saying

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Speaker 2: is just more competition.

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Speaker 1: They didn't break them.

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Speaker 2: It is not a benign raises.

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Speaker 1: The main reason I ask is that we're dibooting flights.

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Speaker 2: We are, and that's quite normal around the world. If

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Speaker 2: militaries will send radio signals up to airlines, into the

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Speaker 2: aviation system and into the maritime system to say they

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Speaker 2: are doing exercises. What we're saying is, look, we're relaxed

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Speaker 2: with what's happening when the sense of it's legal, but

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Speaker 2: we want to make sure we've got a bit more

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Speaker 2: advanced notice.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the cooks deal itself. From what you know and

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Speaker 1: what we've been told so far, are you bothered by it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and clearly frustrated by it, because at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, areas she's not with the Cook Islands people.

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Speaker 2: They made great contribution to New Zealand. But it is

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Speaker 2: with Prime Minister Brown and the government they weren't transparent

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Speaker 2: or consultant before they SCIENTI.

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Speaker 1: To a side the deal itself. Mining the sea bed

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Speaker 1: by the Chinese. Does that bother you?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's quite a few things that we want to

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Speaker 2: digest in those documents. And in fairness, what's happening is

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Speaker 2: again we still don't have transparency because we get at

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Speaker 2: the same time you get it, and the same time

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Speaker 2: the Cook Islands people are seeing the COMPERENCEUS tragic partnership

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Speaker 2: and the Three MOUs and so what we've got to

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Speaker 2: do is go through clause by clause and really understand

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Speaker 2: the risk and the implications of that around defense and

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Speaker 2: security in particular, and then we need to have a

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Speaker 2: reset around to what are going to be the parameters

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Speaker 2: of our constitutional arrangements and have those discussions with the

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Speaker 2: Cook Islands.

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Speaker 1: Which brings us then to defense. Will we see this

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Speaker 1: long away to defense review made public before the budget?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? It juju to come out very shortly on a

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Speaker 2: matter of weeks.

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Speaker 1: Yep, Okay, so we'll know what we're looking at. Then

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Speaker 1: in the budget we had due to Colinto on yesterday.

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Speaker 1: She seemed to infer more neumental amounts of money we're

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Speaker 1: going to get to spend. Is she correct?

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Speaker 2: Yes, there'll be a very significant uplift and defense spending.

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Speaker 1: In the budget.

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Speaker 2: Yes, over a long period of time, in a year

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Speaker 2: and over a period of time. I mean, what's happened here, Mike,

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Speaker 2: is that historically our defense and just you know, SECT

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Speaker 2: has gone off and bought bits of ships and boats

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Speaker 2: and planes and stuff. What I've asked for new leadership

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Speaker 2: is a proper strategy for the next fifteen years of

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Speaker 2: where do we want to build capability in the defense

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Speaker 2: forces and therefore make sure that as we tip money

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Speaker 2: into it, that is actually good money going into a

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Speaker 2: good strategy. A lot of what we've got to do

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Speaker 2: is make things much more interoperable with Australia. As you've

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Speaker 2: seen even over the course of this week, we have pights.

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Speaker 2: They have pights. That helps us when we're doing things

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Speaker 2: like the China. Does this blow the budget though, No, No,

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Speaker 2: we have no money. No, we think we can manage

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Speaker 2: this and so we've got a budget frame around it

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Speaker 2: which we feel very comfortable.

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Speaker 1: Money comes from where well, the.

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Speaker 2: Money comes from us continuing to grow the economy but

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Speaker 2: also actually making it. We're not growing the economy, no,

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Speaker 2: but the continue to greet savings out of what we've

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Speaker 2: talked about.

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Speaker 1: Right, So there are savings and debt.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's savings, is what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: More debt. We'll talk about the budget and we get there.

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Speaker 1: You've just given it away. So we're going to go

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Speaker 1: even more debt to pay for this. I'm not arguing

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Speaker 1: it's not a good idea. I'm just saying there is

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Speaker 1: more debt being loaded up against us.

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Speaker 2: Well, what we're doing is a couple of things. One,

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Speaker 2: as we are going to continue the behavior of savings.

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Speaker 2: We've got a big savings drive and program that we

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Speaker 2: have to get out of the public service, and we'll

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Speaker 2: continue to do that every single day. As you saw

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Speaker 2: at the last budget, I think we generated something like

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Speaker 2: twenty three billion dollars worth of savings that funded a

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Speaker 2: lot of our investment in other areas. And that's the

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Speaker 2: mentality that we have of thinking of sweating the money

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Speaker 2: that we actually have and making sure it's deployed in

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Speaker 2: the right way. So that's the work that the budget

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Speaker 2: ministers are working through right now. I was with them

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Speaker 2: last week. We've got a lot more to do there.

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Speaker 1: Just real quick. I heard you talk to Kerry last week.

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Speaker 1: Is Marsden reel or was that a thought bubble? Marsden's

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Speaker 1: binary is real?

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Speaker 2: Well, Marsden and looking at Marsden was a commitment we

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Speaker 2: made in the coalition agreement with.

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Speaker 1: You were looking and doing a two different things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'll let Shane Jones come back that because

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Speaker 2: it is actually part of a broader piece of work

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Speaker 2: around fuel security.

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Speaker 1: It all makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But is it real Well, he'll talk to that shortly.

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Speaker 2: But what I'd say is the fuel strategy is another piece.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, if we're going to import and fuel,

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Speaker 2: you need to have a number of days cover so

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Speaker 2: that if you got disrupted in a supply chain from Singapore,

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Speaker 2: actually we'll have we got enough cover here on the ground.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole bunch of things. That's one part of it.

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Speaker 1: Just real quick and almost out of time. Is anything

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Speaker 1: tangible come out of Vietnam?

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Speaker 2: Yes, just just much deeper trade relationship. I mean that's

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Speaker 2: an exciting place. I mean one hundred million people, thirty

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Speaker 2: years age, fastest growing economy for twenty five years, going

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Speaker 2: to average seven percent growth in the next five to

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Speaker 2: ten years. And massive opportunity for food, beverage, the traditional sectors,

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Speaker 2: tourism and also education. Education is massive and Vietnam for

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Speaker 2: New Zealand a lot more to do there. So all

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Speaker 2: about trade there? Really all right?

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Speaker 1: Go well, see you next week. We will see you

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Speaker 1: next week.

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Speaker 2: Or not, I'm not sure. Were Num back in Parliament

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Speaker 2: expects that we will be doing.

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Speaker 1: For Parliament's open next week. Come on, you keep giving

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Speaker 1: me grief on this. How long was your summer holiday?

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Speaker 1: Was a long summer holiday? For more from the Mic

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Speaker 1: Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks it'd be from

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Speaker 1: six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.