1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,880 Speaker 1: So did the rugby. Speaking of sport, at least one 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: of the jobs that the union's been filled now Dave 3 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Rennie's you knew all Blacks coach. Rennie's first test is 4 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: the July series. We've got France, Italy in Ireland. David 5 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Kirk is the rugby chair and he is with us. 6 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: Very good mornington, we'll see the Were you spoiled for 7 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: choice between the two? 8 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: It was too all you needed? 9 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 3: Yes, you know, you'd always like more in principle, but 10 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 3: when you've got two very high candidates, very high quality 11 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: candidates like Jamie and Dave, we certainly both were absolutely 12 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 3: appointable and we're delighted that to have appointed Dave. 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 2: How close close we you know. 14 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 3: The panel, a very high quality panel, spent two hours 15 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: discussing the merits of the two candidates. We're very rigorous 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 3: and analytical and going through the strengths and relative weaknesses 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 3: of the candidates. And you know, we concluded quite firmly 18 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 3: and certainly unanimously that Dave was the person that we 19 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 3: wanted to appoint. 20 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 4: But you Jamie's got real qualities. 21 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: What was the just whoop? 22 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: So I'm a rugby fan, but I'm not in the 23 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: weeds like you guys are. So you look at as 24 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: chiefs record, you look at Australia, you look at Japan. 25 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: Is that material does in year but count more or less. 26 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question. 27 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 3: You do look at record, but you look at as 28 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: much as you look at the record of the performance 29 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 3: of the teams and the actual results of the teams. 30 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 4: You look at the environment that they built. 31 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: And the capability they've developed in the team, the capability 32 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: to go to the next level. 33 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 4: For instance, in Australia, they didn't. 34 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 3: Have actually great no numbers on that, but the momentum 35 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: that was in that team as they went into the 36 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 3: World Cup year was pretty powerful. They had lost to 37 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 3: the strongest teams in the world France and Ireland in 38 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 3: the last minutes of a northern tour when they were 39 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 3: pretty staffed. 40 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, it was clear to me 41 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 4: that team was really building for the World Cup. 42 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: That's a vibe thing, though, isn't it. See I chat 43 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: gpt'ed Renny and I see it is Reny a good 44 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: coach and chat ChiPT came back with it's conclusionable no, 45 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: based on results, and that is true. 46 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: You can you have to say. 47 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: If you look at Australia, he wasn't particularly successful, but 48 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: you're vibing him. And that's a risk, isn't it. 49 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 3: Everything's at risk, you know that. But you know it's 50 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 3: the other thing that you that we did in the interview, 51 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 3: which is very clear, was talk to them about how 52 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 3: they build cultures and environments. In the end, the coach 53 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 3: doesn't run on the field and play the game. Coach 54 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: doesn't kick the winning goal. It's all about developing a 55 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: team that can take accountability, knows how to play the game, 56 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: is very clear about what it takes to win modern rugby, 57 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: and has the right leadership and the right understanding of 58 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 3: what they've got to do and is able to execute. 59 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: And that comes down to and that comes down to 60 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: environment and a clear understanding of the game play or 61 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 3: the game model. 62 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: So explain then, because no one, no one understood, you know, 63 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: no one had a better vibe than Raiser for example, 64 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: did he? 65 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: I mean he was. People died for him, and yet 66 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: it didn't work. 67 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 4: Why It's very hard to say. 68 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: I mean you sometimes there's just you know, different environments 69 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: don't bring out the best in people. And you know, 70 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: I think he's a great coach. He's a he's a 71 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: very fine coach. And but but you're right, it wasn't 72 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 3: really working for that team. And if you know, you 73 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: compare the Crusader's environment to the all black environment, it 74 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 3: is very different. It's a much more complex environment. And 75 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: you are traveling and training all the time. You've got 76 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: more people and more things to deal with. But you know, 77 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 3: i'd have to say, I don't really know. 78 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to relitigate it. But but is that 79 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: on you guys? Then if you because if somebody saw 80 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: something in rays that could be elevated, you allegedly were wrong. 81 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: Is that on you guys? 82 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 4: Well, I think you never know until afterwards. 83 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: And I mean I'm not one for looking back and 84 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: stad of blaming people and saying, oh, you should have 85 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: known this or should have known that, when you know, 86 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: the actually that infation wasn't available. We hadn't had the 87 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: experience to understand, you know, how what responses would be 88 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: and how how the you know, the group would perform. 89 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: So I think it's not great. It's not really sensible 90 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: to look back too much. And and you want to 91 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: bee could have been. 92 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: Jure, why well, as much as we would like to 93 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: text and you know what New Zealand's like on rugby 94 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: and coaches and stuff like that. So so one text 95 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: this morning. I wasn't going to ask it, but I am. Now, 96 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: can you get David Kirk to confirm that it wasn't 97 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: the North Island players who picked on Razor? See, that's 98 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: that I mean. I wouldn't answer because it's a it's 99 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: a it's a silly question. I know the answer, but 100 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: that's how New Zealand is think. 101 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 3: And I'm actually very pleased that you've asked that question 102 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: because sorry, this is an opportunity for me to be 103 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: very definitive. It was not the North Island players, not 104 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: by any means. The decision to change the coach was 105 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: not taken by the players. The the decision to change 106 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 3: the coach was taken by the Board of New Zealand Rugby. 107 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 4: That's the accountability that we have. And we talked to 108 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 4: a whole range of. 109 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: People and there was virtually no difference between which island 110 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 3: you came from, was no difference between what your ethnicity was. 111 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: There was actually no difference between whether you're an old 112 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: player and the young player. The trends and the themes 113 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: were very consistent across. 114 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Which just opposes with Renny because I know reading in 115 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: the Australian media yesterday, a lot of Australians think very 116 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: well of them still, so that speaks to his character 117 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and that was part of your equation, wasn't it. 118 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: That's absolutely right, and that's the same with all all 119 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: that coaches and players. Character accounts for a great deal 120 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: when the heaters on characters, what comes out. 121 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: Explain to me. Within the union, there's a lot of 122 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: people leaving why. 123 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: I think there's a combination of things. I think it's 124 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: the affluction of time. As we say, people have just 125 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: been in jobs for quite extended periods of time. I 126 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 3: don't think there's anyone leaving because they feel disgruntled and 127 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 3: the business is not hitting in the right direction. But 128 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: I think for some people it's you and you start. 129 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: I mean Chris Lendrum for instance, he's been the head 130 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: of high Performance for over twenty years. I think it 131 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: is and he just feels a bit wrung out, a 132 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: bit ready for his next challenge, but ready for a break. 133 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: We are changing and he's been part of helping us 134 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: design it. But we are changing the way in which 135 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 3: we work. 136 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 4: With high performance. 137 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: It's just the time is right, And I think that 138 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 3: it's sort of a bit of an unsatisfactory answer. 139 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 4: I know, but for a lot of people, you know, 140 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 4: the time is right. 141 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with that weird program. Yesterday is after 142 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: the Baltimore Ravens. I mean, to be honest, I'd leave 143 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: you for the Baltimore Ravens. 144 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: I mean, he's a great guy, and it's great that 145 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: he's got such a lovely it's such a great career opportunity. 146 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 4: We're delighted. 147 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 2: That's that's a dream come true. 148 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:46,679 Speaker 1: Conditioning, I would have thought, are you dysfunctional as a business? 149 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: No, not at all, not even slightly. 150 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: Well, people want me to ask these questions, it seems. 151 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: I don't know whether I'm more interested in the all 152 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: blacks or the business side of the equation. But as 153 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I follow sport, and sport globally is fantastically successful. Yeah right, 154 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: I would argue the rugby Union at the moment isn't 155 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: that successful? You know, bottom line, it's not that successful. 156 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: It could be more successful. I'm just trying to work 157 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: out whether it's you guys, or whether it's the sport 158 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: of rugby that isn't as big as it could be 159 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: globally compared to other sports. 160 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 4: Will let's wait and see before until our results come out. 161 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: Before we got good results, I'm not saying anything about 162 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: the results because as you know, having interviewed many business 163 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: people over the years, they can't speculate on their results 164 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: before where they're out there. But you know, we're not 165 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: trying to as an operating business running the whole of 166 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: New Zealand Rugby end up with a big surplus every year. 167 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 3: We have a lot of reserves as it is. We've 168 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: sold future net revenue in order to put money into 169 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: the balance sheet in order to invest it in a 170 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 3: growth strategy. So the aim for the organization, the board 171 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: and the management is to run a kind of break 172 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 3: even business in operating. We're not losing money, we're not 173 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 3: going backwards because of operating performance. But we're also there's 174 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: no need for us to try and accumulate more reserves. 175 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: What we need, what we need to do is continue 176 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 3: to invest in the game, and I think you'll find 177 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 3: the game's pretty well funded at the moment and actually 178 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 3: doing pretty well. 179 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 4: Prevential Union. 180 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: Do you worry the Baltimore game? Do you worry that. 181 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I know why you're doing it. If you can, 182 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: if you can land in an American city and sell 183 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: out fifty six thousand and do a lot of pr 184 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: and have boat and shake a lot of hands, this 185 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: is good for the bottom line. That's fantastic. But but 186 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: you know that's the all Blacks away for another game. 187 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: Do you worry that it's not about New Zealand anymore 188 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: as much as it once was? 189 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: I do it, But I think the alls have to 190 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: rugby in general, and the top teams obviously are the 191 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: most important ones. All blacks and black fans have to find, 192 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: you know, ways of continuing to really engage with the 193 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: New Zealand public and engage with the young people. And 194 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: there is a financial I would say necessity, but you know, 195 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 3: or to play more games internationally and a lot more 196 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 3: money from them well, competing to keep our players in 197 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: New Zealand and to keep our coaches in New Zealand, 198 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: and to keep the game properly invested in with some 199 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: big countries with lots of people and lots of money 200 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: around the world. 201 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: You chair a lot of stuff. Where does the rugby 202 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: union sit for you in terms of just enjoyment. 203 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: Probably says at either end the the the it's some 204 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 3: of the most enjoyable things that I do, and sometimes 205 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: it's some of the I wouldn't say it's unenjoyable, but 206 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: it's it's time consuming and sapping training. It's just the time, really, 207 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 3: and there's a lot of people that pull me in 208 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: a lot of directions in rugby, but I get a 209 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: real kick out of the out of the environment. I mean, 210 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 3: it's it's funnily enough. It's it's not so much the 211 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 3: high performance environment which I've been in as a player 212 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 3: and around subsequent see the community game. When I see 213 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: when I go into smaller clubrooms and smaller unions and 214 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: see people giving their time for nothing and the love 215 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 3: of the game and the enjoyment they get talking to 216 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 3: me and to other players and things, it just it's 217 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: it's really inspiring. 218 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: Good stuff. Nice to talk to you, Nice to see 219 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: David Kirkie. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen 220 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: live to news talks. 221 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 222 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.