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Speaker 1: So the headline grab aro out of the infrastructure plan is,

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Speaker 1: of course the Auckland Harbor Bridge at nine dollars a pop.

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Speaker 1: Outside of that, we look like a poor country with

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Speaker 1: a lot of crap stuff that doesn't work well and

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Speaker 1: we need to fix it. Chris Bishop as the Infrastructure

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Speaker 1: Minister and is with us. Good morning, good morning. If

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Speaker 1: you were down in the dumps about this country and

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Speaker 1: you were thinking of leaving for Australia, your report yesterday

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Speaker 1: doesn't really help anyone, does it.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a great way to start. It's like it's

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Speaker 2: a sobering report in the sense that you know there

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Speaker 2: are big problems in his Zeld infrastructure system. Central government

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Speaker 2: owns billions of dollars worth of assets. We don't really

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Speaker 2: know what we own. We don't look after what we own.

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Speaker 2: We do a poor job of working out if we're

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Speaker 2: building the right stuff. So you're right. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: there's lots of things in the Zeld infrastructure that are

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Speaker 2: really good, and there's lots of things we've built over

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Speaker 2: the years that are incredible and we've been world leaders

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Speaker 2: and things like electricity, transmission, cables and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So we are living on the legacy of our ancestors. Yes,

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Speaker 2: but we've got a lot of week to do to

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Speaker 2: build the future for his zeland. Right.

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Speaker 1: So I'm watching the news last night and they do

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Speaker 1: those moronic clips of people in the street, and he

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Speaker 1: was telling me that he goes to the north Shore

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Speaker 1: quite a bit to pick up some stuff from Facebook marketplace,

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Speaker 1: so he doesn't want to pay the nine dollars. Is

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Speaker 1: that who you're facing and who you're trying to convince

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Speaker 1: to pay nine dollars?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, the reality is asking people to pay pay

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Speaker 2: for pay more for things, or pay for things is difficult.

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Speaker 2: And we've pushed the boat out quite a bit as

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Speaker 2: a government on tolling and that's because ultimately roads have

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Speaker 2: to be paid for and we've tried to move the

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Speaker 2: system towards more of a user pays model and we

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Speaker 2: think that's fair. The original Harbor Bridge in Auckland was

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Speaker 2: of course paid for with a toll, and we've just

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Speaker 2: signaled quite clearly that when you're dropping you know, billions

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Speaker 2: and billions of dollars, which is what the second Harbor

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Speaker 2: Crossing will be the biggest infrastructure project ever built in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand. That's a project where we do think it

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Speaker 2: will end up being told because that's a fair way

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Speaker 2: of paying for the project.

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Speaker 1: There's no other way around it. I mean, Labour can't

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Speaker 1: come back with no, we're not tolling and we'll just borrow,

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Speaker 1: can't They mean that the numbers are too big to borrow.

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Speaker 1: It's good, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It has to be exactly right. Look, here's the reality

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Speaker 2: roads and in fact, all infrastructure has to be paid for.

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Speaker 2: It has to be and you can use user charges

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Speaker 2: for that through tolling, or through petrol tax or a

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Speaker 2: combination of both, which is essentially what we do. You

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Speaker 2: can borrow for that, but of course that has to

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Speaker 2: be paid for too. Money is not for Despite what

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Speaker 2: the Labor Party think, debt is not free. We already

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Speaker 2: have a huge amount of debt that was built up

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Speaker 2: during the COVID years that has to be repaid and

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Speaker 2: we are desperately as a government getting the books back

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Speaker 2: in order so that when the next shot comes along,

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Speaker 2: the next cyclon Gabrielle or whatever, we're in a position

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Speaker 2: where we can actually deal with it. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: of course, we're a very vulnerable situation and the Treasury

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Speaker 2: says we've got to keep the debt levels under control.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise our international borrowing costs will go up, and then

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Speaker 2: everybody's interest rates will go up, and then you're in

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Speaker 2: Banana Republic directory you are. Then you can't even meet

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Speaker 2: you can't even meet the debt repayments and what you've

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Speaker 2: already borrowed.

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Speaker 1: You know, it'll never happen. But the last the question, anyway,

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Speaker 1: do we need to take this sort of thing beyond

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Speaker 1: the politician? In other words, we need to in some

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Speaker 1: countries do it. You lock it into law and big

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Speaker 1: decisions are made and the new government simply has to

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Speaker 1: live with it. That's life. Otherwise we're never going to

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Speaker 1: go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's partly why I commissioned the Infrastructure Plan. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this all came about because we campaigned on having a

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Speaker 2: long term, bipartisan independent view of our infrastructure needs and

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Speaker 2: our assets and what we need to do that. That's

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Speaker 2: why this report's being talked about. So we've kind of

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Speaker 2: started that process and we're intending to work with the

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Speaker 2: opposition around the government response to the plane.

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Speaker 1: You can't look at them because they're idiots, I mean,

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Speaker 1: for goodness sake, I mean, but they're already arguing over

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Speaker 1: the roads of national significance. They're they're they're playing dumb

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Speaker 1: games with the FTA on India. They're not they're not

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Speaker 1: big picture people. They're not serious people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look it's you sound like Logan Roy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's it's been It has been a bit

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Speaker 2: frustrating in the last a couple of days. They've been

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Speaker 2: saying things like we haven't been briefed on the plan

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Speaker 2: when they have. So look, we're going to We're going

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Speaker 2: to make our put our best foot forward and try

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Speaker 2: and try and sort of come up with something that

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Speaker 2: is sensible for the country that the opposition can buy into.

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Speaker 2: There'll always be a bit of politics, and you know,

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Speaker 2: look it's a bon fight. It's election year. There'll be

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Speaker 2: a bit of backwards and forwards. But you know, I

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Speaker 2: think my feeling from the public is they genuinely want

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Speaker 2: us to try and nail these problems. I spent an

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Speaker 2: enormous amount of my time with Nikola working on fixing

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Speaker 2: the foundations of the system, things like asset register's long

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Speaker 2: term plans, assurance functions inside the system. It's boring. No

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Speaker 2: one will ever you know, no one's ever going to

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Speaker 2: write up a press release I put out about it,

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Speaker 2: but it's extremely important to fixing you know what we've

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Speaker 2: got in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Yes it is. Appreciate it Infrastructure Manister Chris Bush. For

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Speaker 1: more from the mic Asking Breakfast listen live to news

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