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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts three hundred and twenty one from March

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Speaker 2: twenty five, twenty twenty six. The events and the effects

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Speaker 2: of the COVID nineteen era have done huge damage to much,

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Speaker 2: if not most, of the world. The COVID cloud still

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Speaker 2: hangs over us, both physically and economically. Decisions made or

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Speaker 2: imposed on society, either by intent or mistake, should never

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Speaker 2: be visited upon us again. The whow has undermined public

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Speaker 2: trust and destroyed many lives. Enter the International Reform Project,

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Speaker 2: which will be officially announced in mid April by its

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Speaker 2: co chairs David Bell and Rummish the Curve, but Ramesh

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Speaker 2: the Kurb provides an introduction in three twenty one that

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Speaker 2: should be heard by anyone in the medical profession and

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Speaker 2: anyone who knows that health reform is urgently needed. But

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Speaker 2: first in the introduction, I may mention of the COVID

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Speaker 2: cloud and its effect on us physically and economically one

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Speaker 2: of the well, we were all suffering from it one

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Speaker 2: way or the other. But I concentrated a fair amount

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Speaker 2: on what was going on in Victoria, Melbourne in particular

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Speaker 2: because of the well everybody knows by now surely the corruption.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say because of the ignorance. No,

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Speaker 2: it was because of the corruption that took place politically

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Speaker 2: politically in Melbourne during that period, which brings me to

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Speaker 2: the following published on the twenty third, two days ago,

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Speaker 2: Victoria a Fool's Paradise or Becoming a Worker's Paradise. History

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Speaker 2: teaches us that workers paradises eventually succumb to a brutal

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Speaker 2: market based adjustment. We learn this week that the Victorian

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Speaker 2: government will legislate a working from home entitlement for employees

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Speaker 2: in all businesses, all big, medium and small. Also, the

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Speaker 2: ACTU will campaign for workers to have five weeks annual leave.

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Speaker 2: A year shift workers will receive six weeks annual leave.

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Speaker 2: Victoria is on a path that almost yearly expands worker

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Speaker 2: entitlements and reduces employer rights. Casual employees in nominated industries

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Speaker 2: have a right to long service leave in advance of

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Speaker 2: their federal entitlements. Employers in the nominated industries pay a

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Speaker 2: levy for every employee. In the lead up to the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two state election, the state government introduced to

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Speaker 2: scheme to give casual employees access to sick leave. This

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Speaker 2: conveniently ignored the fact that casual employees receive a payloading

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Speaker 2: to compensate for lack of access to sick leave. The

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Speaker 2: scheme was discontinued after the election was won. The ignorant

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Speaker 2: benevolence of the Victorian government is highlighted by the leave

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Speaker 2: conditions in the Victorian Public Service twenty twenty four Enterprise Agreement.

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Speaker 2: The agreement sets out an astonishing twenty two types of leave.

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Speaker 2: Most of the entitlements offer paid leave. The standard annual,

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Speaker 2: personal career and long service leave apply. Reproductive health and

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Speaker 2: well being, gender affirmation, surrogacy, grandparent care of grandchildren, foster

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Speaker 2: and kinship, rehabilitation from alcohol and drug abuse, sporting event participation,

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Speaker 2: infectious disease, and cultural and ceremonial leave are just some

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Speaker 2: on the lead menu. The entitlement mentality is open ended,

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Speaker 2: with VPS employers allowed to grant other leave quote for

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Speaker 2: any purpose. VPS employees are entitled to work from home,

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Speaker 2: and many are rarely seen at the workplace. Pay increases

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Speaker 2: are granted without any attention to productivity improvement. The source

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Speaker 2: of job's growth in any decent workers paradise comes predominantly

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Speaker 2: from the public sector. This is the case in Victoria.

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Speaker 2: Government employment grew by forty two percent over the ten

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Speaker 2: years twenty fifteen to twenty five. In contrast, the Victorian

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Speaker 2: labor force, that is public and private employment, grew by

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Speaker 2: a modest twenty four percent. Analysis by the Australian Industry

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Speaker 2: Group found that nine out of ten jobs created during

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Speaker 2: twenty three twenty four were in the public service. So

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Speaker 2: the worker's paradise is alive and well in Victoria. It

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Speaker 2: survives alongside punishing tax increases and mountains of government debt. Unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 2: the attraction to invest in vis Victoria is declining. Who

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Speaker 2: would have guessed a culture change backed by political courage

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Speaker 2: is required, No job is guaranteed. The cost of employing

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Speaker 2: people in the Victorian public sector is unsustainable. Now. That

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Speaker 2: was written by John Lloyd, a senior fellow at the

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Speaker 2: HR Nichols Society. No don't, I can't explain, but that's

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Speaker 2: where he's from. And as we witness over this last

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Speaker 2: weekend with the situation in South Australia with their election.

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Speaker 2: Of course the next election is is it November? I

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Speaker 2: think it is in Victoria and it's disturbing. And why

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Speaker 2: is it disturbing? Well, you may be aware that we

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Speaker 2: have an election in this country in October and things

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Speaker 2: aren't looking terribly flash for well anybody really. But the

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Speaker 2: danger is if we followed the trend in South Australia

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Speaker 2: where the Labor Party swept back in Victoria that's been

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Speaker 2: run by Labor for some considerable time, it stands to

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Speaker 2: reason that well there may be an influence in this

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Speaker 2: part of the world. And I don't think too many

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Speaker 2: of us want to go back to the years that

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Speaker 2: we suffered under those that are now out of the

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Speaker 2: country and hopefully stay there now after a short break rummesh,

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Speaker 2: the cur Buccolan is a natural oral vaccine in a

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Speaker 2: tablet form called bacterial l sate. It'll boost your natural

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Speaker 2: protection against bacterial infections in your chest and throat. A

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Speaker 2: three day course of seven Bucklan tablets will help your

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Speaker 2: body build up to three months of immunity against bugs

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Speaker 2: which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So who can take buccolan

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Speaker 2: well the whole family From two years of age and upwards.

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Speaker 2: A course of Bucklan tablets offers cost effective and safe

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Speaker 2: protection from colds and chills. Protection becomes effective a few

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Speaker 2: days after you take buccolan and lasts for up to

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Speaker 2: three months following the three day course. Buccolan can be

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Speaker 2: taken throughout the cold season, over winter, or all the

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Speaker 2: year round. And remember Buckelan is not intended as an

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Speaker 2: alternative to influenza vaccination, but may be used along with

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Speaker 2: the flu vaccination for added protection. And keep in mind

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Speaker 2: that millions of doses have been taken by Kiwi's for

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Speaker 2: over fifty years. Only available from your pharmacist. Always read

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Speaker 2: the label and users directed, and see your doctor if

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Speaker 2: systems persist. Farmer Broker Auckland Layton Smith Ramesh the Khur

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Speaker 2: is well known to this audience. But for the odd

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Speaker 2: person who has not listened before or has missed Ramesh

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Speaker 2: at some stage, let me just tell you the man

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Speaker 2: is very clever, very good writer and also a good speaker.

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Speaker 2: He was a professor of various things in various parts

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Speaker 2: of the world, including a Tiger University and then the

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Speaker 2: Australian National University.

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Speaker 3: He is.

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Speaker 2: Now, I suppose you'd say, semi retired on the north

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Speaker 2: New South Wales coast, retired.

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Speaker 3: Nothing semi about it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're talking to me. I consider that to be.

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Speaker 3: Talking to you is both a pleasure and it's something

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Speaker 3: I'm happy to do. I have no obligation to do

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Speaker 3: anything anymore, and I'm ruthless about that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess that's the that's the difference, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's a good way to put it. If you have

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Speaker 2: no obligation, you are free. I'm on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: I'm in chains.

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Speaker 3: As your end. Yeah, some some are happy being in chains,

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Speaker 3: but no, it's a good position to be in. It

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Speaker 3: also means I don't have to worry about suffering any consequences.

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Speaker 3: And since I'm not on social media, I don't get

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Speaker 3: into that gutter sphere either.

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Speaker 2: So no, did you say gutter sphere?

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful, all right. So the purpose of

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Speaker 2: this conversation is to discuss something that's new on the scene.

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Speaker 2: The International Health Reform Project, if I may just a

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Speaker 2: little from the forward of this experience, has demonstrated that

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Speaker 2: international health cooperation can, when poorly governed undermine trust, distort priorities,

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Speaker 2: and produce significant unintended harm. Recent trends of centralized decision making,

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Speaker 2: emergency exceptionalism, and donor driven agendas, exemplified during the COVID

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Speaker 2: nineteen response, displaced proportionality, local context, and established public health ethics.

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Speaker 2: They didn't establish public health ethics. They were You've got

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Speaker 2: to reverse that. These pages. Yeah, these failures revealed structural

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Speaker 2: weaknesses rather than temporary lapses. At the same time, cooperation

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Speaker 2: in public health also required an understanding of the sovereignty

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Speaker 2: and equality of individuals and the states that represent them,

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Speaker 2: an understanding that underpins the United Nations itself. Thus, any

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Speaker 2: institution tasked with managing health cooperation must be based on

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Speaker 2: this understanding and be fully subject to the states it

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Speaker 2: is intended to serve. It should come as no surprise

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Speaker 2: to anyone that, after nearly eighty years of existence in

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Speaker 2: a greatly changed world, the World Health Organization that WHO

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Speaker 2: is perceived by many to have drifted from its original model.

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Speaker 2: Fundamental shifts in its funding base are now The exit

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Speaker 2: of its largest state funder that's being America, present both

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Speaker 2: an opportunity and an urgency to reassess the optimal way

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Speaker 2: in which states should work together to serve the health

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Speaker 2: needs of their populations, applying the fundamental principles on which

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Speaker 2: public health should be based to a greatly changed and

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Speaker 2: evolving world. Now that's just part of the introduction to

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Speaker 2: this project. When is this going public?

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Speaker 3: Well, we're publishing two reports. The title for both is

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Speaker 3: the Right to Health Sovereignty. Subtitle is Policy Report and

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Speaker 3: Technical Report. The Policy Report, the launch on Amazon dot

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Speaker 3: Com of the actual publication is the thirteenth of April,

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Speaker 3: and hopefully the technical report will be also out by

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Speaker 3: the end of April, so next month report.

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Speaker 2: So we're getting a pretty good brief on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: I hope. So yes, how did this romesh? How did

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Speaker 2: this come about? I mean, I know that you and

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Speaker 2: David Bell have worked together, specifically with the introduction of Brownstone.

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Speaker 2: You've known each other for some considerable time.

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Speaker 3: We have, and he is Australian. Start with that, he

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Speaker 3: grew up in Victoria. His degree was from the University

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Speaker 3: of Melbourne Medical School. But he's actually worked with the

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Speaker 3: WHO for some time in the field in the SORRY,

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Speaker 3: in the regional office in Manila, and then quite often

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Speaker 3: in the field in Africa. On various things. And he's

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Speaker 3: now in Texas. He lives in Texas, so his medical

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Speaker 3: doctor with considerable experience of the who from the inside.

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Speaker 3: I come from completely outside to a world of health

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Speaker 3: with no experience or knowledge or skills in that. But

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Speaker 3: my experience is in international public policy at a more

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Speaker 3: senior level, and we have both been interested in issues

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Speaker 3: of health governance, he more full time in my case

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Speaker 3: under my interest in global governance. So we came together. First,

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Speaker 3: we got to know you through the writings for Brownstone,

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Speaker 3: and we met at a Brownstone Annual conference that was

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Speaker 3: held in Dallas in what was it October and November twenty.

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Speaker 2: Three were you were the big guest speaker ours it.

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Speaker 3: That's where I did the main after dinner speech. And

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Speaker 3: I think where we come together is acknowledgement of two

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Speaker 3: things and that's been difficult. And before I go through that,

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Speaker 3: a more general point what we have seen in recent

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Speaker 3: times across the world is difficulty in communicating across different

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Speaker 3: points of view. You know, the democratic precept and theory

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Speaker 3: is we have differences, but we discuss them, debate them,

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Speaker 3: come to a resolution, or agree to disagree, but do

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Speaker 3: not damage relations with one another okay that has applied

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Speaker 3: also to health policy issues now suddenly with COVID nineteen

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Speaker 3: in particular, if you disagreed you were ego, you're immoral,

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Speaker 3: you're a granny killer, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, And the other

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Speaker 3: side you say, well, hang on, you've become a covidian.

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Speaker 3: Why can't we just discuss this, Where is the science

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Speaker 3: behind it? Show me the data. And so the debate

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Speaker 3: on this became highly polarized, and from that the polarization

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Speaker 3: and the extreme polarization came through with regard to the

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Speaker 3: WHOW as well. And so some people are happy to

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Speaker 3: just accept everything and sign off on all new commitments,

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Speaker 3: whether legally binding or not, in the form of the

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Speaker 3: amendments to the International Health Regulations and then a new

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Speaker 3: Pandemic treaty, and other people are so disillusioned and angry

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Speaker 3: with the WHOW performance that they want to pull right

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Speaker 3: out now. With David and me, we felt that there

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Speaker 3: was a reason why we set up the dou WHOW.

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Speaker 3: That ration channel hasn't disappeared. At the same time, like

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Speaker 3: any bureaucracy, really, the WHO has been subverted from within

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Speaker 3: to serve its own existence and growth. And proliferation in numbers,

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Speaker 3: in budget, in authority at the expense of its core

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Speaker 3: mission statement, and that this is producing a backlash and

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Speaker 3: if we don't go back to original assumptions and principles

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Speaker 3: and foundational missions, then the risks throwing the baby out

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Speaker 3: with the bathwater. Now that's of course a very difficult

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Speaker 3: position to take on any deeply polarized debate in these days.

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Speaker 3: You know the old margaret thatchemon. If you start, if

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Speaker 3: you want to stand in the middle, you risk getting

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Speaker 3: hit by traffic going in both directions. I think that

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Speaker 3: does apply. But we got together an international panel of

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Speaker 3: ten of us all together, from Africa, from Asia, from

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Speaker 3: here obviously, from Europe, and from the US, with a

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Speaker 3: range of disciplines represented in this as well, because one

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Speaker 3: of our was certainly one of mine. If you remember,

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Speaker 3: major criticisms of the COVID policies was not only was

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Speaker 3: it not contestable advice that was given to governments, they

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Speaker 3: were not taking a range of opinions forgetting you know,

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Speaker 3: the basic truth that policy is not about solving puzzles

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Speaker 3: as much as it is about it's engaging in policy

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Speaker 3: trade offs within health and between health and other issues.

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Speaker 3: So we have this range of people and we've been

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Speaker 3: working for about a year and a half now on

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Speaker 3: this input from everyone. Essentially, for the Policy Report, I

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Speaker 3: took the lead in writing it, so it's my lid

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Speaker 3: opinion and the final product will have me as the

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Speaker 3: lead writer. There's other lead writers for the technical report,

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Speaker 3: where I've done oversight and reading and commenting on various

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Speaker 3: things as well. And the reason for that again for

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Speaker 3: the Policy report world background and experience in writing these

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Speaker 3: sorts of things for the UN, and hence I mean

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Speaker 3: the idea was, if you have one editorial pen, at

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Speaker 3: least you have some hope of getting consistency and a

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Speaker 3: narrative flow rather than a report produced by a committee.

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Speaker 3: I hope that will come through. You might get a

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Speaker 3: sense of that even from the forward and the executive

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Speaker 3: summary essentially in advance. But the idea is to have

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Speaker 3: that and explain why On the one hand, international cooperation

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Speaker 3: is merited is important, what we will miss the who

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Speaker 3: was to collapse completely and why that will be harmful

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Speaker 3: to everyone, but particularly to people in poorer countries and

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Speaker 3: poorer parts of the world. On the other hand, document

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Speaker 3: why there has been overreach and how this has produced

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Speaker 3: a backlash and what we need to get back to

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Speaker 3: a better basis for cooperation. So the moment we thought

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Speaker 3: was right because it fits into a broader angst against

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Speaker 3: so called globalism and globalization. And I think we've discussed

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Speaker 3: that earlier. And then the US pulling out is as

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Speaker 3: the biggest state funder, And we have a meeting of

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Speaker 3: a small subgroup of our project in Washington last month,

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Speaker 3: and during that time, the Washington Post published that story

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Speaker 3: about how they're looking to alternative structures and therefore actually

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Speaker 3: turn out to be much costlier, which is not an

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Speaker 3: exceptional conclusion in regard to efforts to bypass the un

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Speaker 3: more generally, if you try to bypass it completely as

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Speaker 3: opposed to not tinkering the reform, but deep structured reform.

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Speaker 3: So you a start. That was a starting point, and

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Speaker 3: that's what the project is about. Sorry, go on.

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Speaker 2: So your organization, the International Health Reform Project, is ye

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Speaker 2: sickly walking a tight wire between between the two options.

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Speaker 3: Correct?

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Speaker 2: Does it feel? Does it does it feel that? Look?

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Speaker 2: I didn't, I didn't. I didn't At the beginning, I

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Speaker 2: failed to mention that you you were an acting United

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Speaker 2: Nations General Secretary on the assistance assistance on number of occasions.

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Speaker 2: Your experience is vast. You know, you know the you

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Speaker 2: know the inside of all of all of this and

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Speaker 2: what what gets criticized usually without too much justification. You

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Speaker 2: you are well well aware of it and able to

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Speaker 2: provide it when necessary. So how difficult might it be

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Speaker 2: rather than easy to keep this this position between the

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Speaker 2: two players if you like uh and and make it

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Speaker 2: work successfully.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, when you have a major polarized bit.

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Speaker 3: My starting assumption is it's unlikely either that one side

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Speaker 3: is evil and the other is composed of angels compared

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Speaker 3: to angels, and secondly, that one side is completely right

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Speaker 3: and everything it says and the other side is totally

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Speaker 3: wrong in all their claims. And if you take these

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Speaker 3: too starting assumptions, which is not a bad one to

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Speaker 3: begin with, then the trick becomes to identify areas where

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Speaker 3: you agree with one and the areas where you agree

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Speaker 3: with the other and see if you can reconcile them.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we try to be. Going back to

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Speaker 3: my experience, that's what we try to do on the

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Speaker 3: International Commission on Intervention and Sovereignty. When we came up

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Speaker 3: to the formulation of the responsibility to protect and did

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Speaker 3: reconcile the two and that's why it got adopted by

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Speaker 3: the UN with exceptionally fast speed in terms of independent

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Speaker 3: commission making recommendations, and it's being taken up. So that's

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Speaker 3: what we are trying to do, and begin by saying,

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Speaker 3: instead of globalism, why not again invert that, just as

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Speaker 3: we did with the sovereignty issues and said sovereignty is

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Speaker 3: essentially responsibility and be inverked up by saying, let's go

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Speaker 3: back to fundational things. You start with individual agency, and

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Speaker 3: I feel like individual sovereignty and that takes a form

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Speaker 3: of conversations between the patient and the GP in the

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Speaker 3: healthcare clinic, and that's where most decisions should be made.

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Speaker 3: But for that decision to be legitimate, the patient has

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Speaker 3: to be given as much accurate and relevant information as

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Speaker 3: possible by the doctor, and neither the medical regulators nor

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Speaker 3: the national government should come between the patient and the

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Speaker 3: doctor in the clinic. If you have gaps, you change

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Speaker 3: your training methods for your doctors, but don't insert yourself

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Speaker 3: between the doctor and the patient, because the consequence of

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Speaker 3: loss of faith in the system are much worse than

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Speaker 3: any mistake or error that dot doctor might make, and

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Speaker 3: it's the doctor who knows the patient ideally in great detail,

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Speaker 3: has a family history, has built up trust over many consultations.

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Speaker 3: And then it's the doctor who gives the different options

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Speaker 3: with an honest evaluation of prospects for success on each

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Speaker 3: of the different options and the risks entailed in each

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Speaker 3: of the different options. And then you move from there

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Speaker 3: to national level government regulators, bureaucracy experts, whatever, and they

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Speaker 3: set policy for the country as a whole. And then

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Speaker 3: you move from there to regional organizations where you can

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Speaker 3: collate data and evidence and set up surveillance networks so

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Speaker 3: you can get advanced warnings of disease outbreaks and provide

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Speaker 3: advice and technical assistance. And then from there you move

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Speaker 3: on to the global level. So most of the actions

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Speaker 3: should be in the clinic, then the state, then the

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Speaker 3: regional and the least at the global level. In terms

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Speaker 3: of normative guidance, the UN is irreplaceable in standard setting

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Speaker 3: role in establishing norms and stuff, It is hopeless in compliance,

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Speaker 3: and it is in between in terms of being able

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Speaker 3: to monitor. So those that's the relationship partially that it

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Speaker 3: should be. So then how do you populate the different

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Speaker 3: levels in more detailed and why and how do you

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Speaker 3: provide the justifications philosophically, empirical, ifil, et cetera, to justify

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Speaker 3: these sorts of conclusions and what it would mean and

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Speaker 3: where we end up. By the way is saying, there

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Speaker 3: comes a point when the normalies and the accumulated vested

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Speaker 3: interests have established a very stable equilibrium, so that it

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Speaker 3: is easier politically, or it may be easier politically to

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Speaker 3: actually go for a replacement organization with a new name

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Speaker 3: rather than deep structural reform. And that I illustrate by

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Speaker 3: going back to the transition from the League of Nations

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Speaker 3: to the United Nations, because if you think about it,

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Speaker 3: the United Nations is essentially a continuation of the League,

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Speaker 3: a General Assembly and Executive Council, a World Court, the

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Speaker 3: International Labor Organization, the procedures in terms of collective security,

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Speaker 3: specific settlement of disputes, add education, arbitration, etc. It's essentially

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Speaker 3: the same learning from experience, improving some that needed improvement,

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Speaker 3: shedding others that were do hard to improve, adding things

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Speaker 3: that have become obvious in practice as part of the constitution,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. So that is there but politically have been

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Speaker 3: impossible in nineteen forty five to say this is a

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Speaker 3: reform League of Nations for a number of reasons that

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Speaker 3: we can go into. So I take example and say,

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Speaker 3: if you can do destructured from not tinkering on the margins,

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Speaker 3: by all means it's logically more sensible, but don't waste

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Speaker 3: so much time on it. If it proves difficult or impossible,

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Speaker 3: move to doing a replacement international health organization. Now in

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Speaker 3: the report we say this is not for US or

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Speaker 3: any independent international commission to prescribe to the country's what

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Speaker 3: they should do. We are setting out the argument it's

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Speaker 3: up to you to decide which is a better path.

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Speaker 3: You can try reform if you like. If it works, fine,

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Speaker 3: everyone is happy. If it doesn't, you may be better

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Speaker 3: off going to replacement the route rather than investing more

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Speaker 3: time and energy. Because what happened to the UN was

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Speaker 3: the last big reform effort was two thousand and five,

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Speaker 3: and people less that exhausted and jaded, and we haven't

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Speaker 3: had a thing since then. And the core of that is,

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Speaker 3: of course the Security Council reform is struck as well

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Speaker 3: as procedural. So again, learning from that experience, The idea is,

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Speaker 3: these are the principles we think are important, and it

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Speaker 3: is important to restate the principles of informed consent. First,

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Speaker 3: you know, harm, make sure you're doing good, etc.

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Speaker 2: Etc.

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Speaker 3: And then go up first from that. So what would

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Speaker 3: it look like if you started off afresh today? I

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Speaker 3: don't think you look very much like what it actually is.

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Speaker 3: And at the heart of that also is the funding formula,

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Speaker 3: as well as the governor's arrangements. So we go into

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Speaker 3: all that and much more detail and substantively in the

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Speaker 3: technical report, which also then gives the footnotes and the

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Speaker 3: references to the literature, whereas in the policy report I

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Speaker 3: prefer to go straight into a narrative account rather than

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Speaker 3: in those technical sites.

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Speaker 2: Now you've said so much that I don't think I

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00:27:05,453 --> 00:27:06,173
Speaker 2: can cover it all.

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00:27:08,493 --> 00:27:10,493
Speaker 3: Now we can have another talk about it once out.

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00:27:11,613 --> 00:27:12,253
Speaker 3: Well you can talk.

403
00:27:12,853 --> 00:27:16,933
Speaker 2: Well, well, there is that, but I'm interested in some

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00:27:16,933 --> 00:27:23,413
Speaker 2: some tangential questions, if you like, the Your experience at

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00:27:23,413 --> 00:27:29,293
Speaker 2: the u N would have patently given you a very

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00:27:29,333 --> 00:27:35,453
Speaker 2: solid insight into the way that things work mm hmm

407
00:27:36,173 --> 00:27:40,373
Speaker 2: or don't work. Has the u N which has the

408
00:27:40,453 --> 00:27:42,813
Speaker 2: UN passed its use by date?

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Speaker 3: I think so, And that goes back to the Security Council.

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00:27:49,733 --> 00:27:51,933
Speaker 3: Now again, if you tell them to talk about the UN,

411
00:27:52,133 --> 00:27:54,093
Speaker 3: let's put it in the more general terms. To start with,

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Speaker 3: we think that most people don't realize about the United

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Speaker 3: Nations is that it is a meeting ground of realism

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Speaker 3: and argealism, in the sense that realism must be tempered

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Speaker 3: by idealism in order to retain the confidence and faith

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Speaker 3: of the people, because it represents a vision for an

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Speaker 3: international community where it's the one body that houses the

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Speaker 3: divided fragments of humanity, so one place where we express

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00:28:30,053 --> 00:28:36,733
Speaker 3: solidarity as human beings, regardless of differences of nationality, religion, gender, race,

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Speaker 3: income levels, whatever, and that sense of solidarity as human

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Speaker 3: beings from which flows the entire theory and practice and

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Speaker 3: institutions of human arty, if you like, It comes from that.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, idealism, without being grounded in the

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Speaker 3: real world, just becomes naivety and bears no relationship to

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Speaker 3: what is possible, what is feasible, what are the constraints,

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00:29:04,773 --> 00:29:09,173
Speaker 3: what are the assets for achieving any goal, etc. Reconciliation

427
00:29:09,733 --> 00:29:15,373
Speaker 3: is never easy, it's exceptionally challenging, but is nonetheless absolutely fundamental.

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00:29:15,973 --> 00:29:19,333
Speaker 3: Now you see that in the Security Council, you have

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Speaker 3: the General Assembly as the equivalent of one person, one vote,

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00:29:22,653 --> 00:29:26,413
Speaker 3: it's one member state, one vote. So you have one

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Speaker 3: hundred and ninety three hundred and ninety four I think

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Speaker 3: it's one hundred ninety four now member states. And so

433
00:29:31,893 --> 00:29:36,933
Speaker 3: the smallest, weakest, poorest country has the same one vote

434
00:29:37,293 --> 00:29:40,693
Speaker 3: as the United States, as the biggest economy, the most

435
00:29:40,733 --> 00:29:44,413
Speaker 3: powerful country, huge population, and the same one vote as

436
00:29:44,493 --> 00:29:48,653
Speaker 3: China and India the two billion plus populations. On the

437
00:29:48,653 --> 00:29:55,253
Speaker 3: other hand, the world affairs has always been regulated, governed,

438
00:29:56,133 --> 00:30:00,373
Speaker 3: enforced by major powers. They have the greatest capacity to

439
00:30:00,493 --> 00:30:04,533
Speaker 3: disturb any existing international order, and they have the greatest

440
00:30:04,613 --> 00:30:11,653
Speaker 3: material capacity to underpin and underwrite the existing order. And

441
00:30:11,693 --> 00:30:17,293
Speaker 3: in recognition of that, you give them exceptional continuity and

442
00:30:17,493 --> 00:30:21,293
Speaker 3: authority in the executive body, in this case the Security Council,

443
00:30:22,133 --> 00:30:25,893
Speaker 3: So the five permanent members with the power of veto

444
00:30:26,893 --> 00:30:31,853
Speaker 3: the United States. So which union now Russia, China, France,

445
00:30:31,893 --> 00:30:36,013
Speaker 3: and the UK. That is nineteen forty five. You think

446
00:30:36,053 --> 00:30:38,573
Speaker 3: of the extent to which in New Zealand has changed

447
00:30:38,733 --> 00:30:41,773
Speaker 3: as a relatively small country. You think of the extent

448
00:30:41,813 --> 00:30:44,973
Speaker 3: to which the United States has changed since nineteen forty five.

449
00:30:45,373 --> 00:30:48,173
Speaker 3: In nineteen forty five, India was still a colony of

450
00:30:48,173 --> 00:30:53,373
Speaker 3: the United Kingdom. Most countries in the Africa and Asia

451
00:30:53,653 --> 00:30:57,093
Speaker 3: were colonies of European powers. If you try to run

452
00:30:57,173 --> 00:30:59,653
Speaker 3: Australia or New Zealand, lettle On, the United States or

453
00:30:59,693 --> 00:31:04,133
Speaker 3: India today on the basis of these structures political structures

454
00:31:04,133 --> 00:31:07,013
Speaker 3: that were in place in nineteen forty five, all of

455
00:31:07,093 --> 00:31:10,333
Speaker 3: us would come to a coach stands it's difficult enough

456
00:31:10,373 --> 00:31:13,853
Speaker 3: as it is running these countries now. It's very difficult

457
00:31:13,933 --> 00:31:17,573
Speaker 3: governing challenges, governess challenges, but they'll come to her. The

458
00:31:17,613 --> 00:31:20,413
Speaker 3: world has changed even more ramatically, and yet you're still

459
00:31:20,453 --> 00:31:22,573
Speaker 3: trying to run it in terms of the structure put

460
00:31:22,693 --> 00:31:26,733
Speaker 3: in place in nineteen forty five. So unsurprisingly it's completely

461
00:31:26,773 --> 00:31:28,933
Speaker 3: out of date. If you were to have a Secrety

462
00:31:28,973 --> 00:31:32,213
Speaker 3: Council of permanent members today, how many would you have

463
00:31:32,293 --> 00:31:35,693
Speaker 3: and who would there be? And let me just finish

464
00:31:35,773 --> 00:31:39,533
Speaker 3: his answer with that example. Of all the serious reform

465
00:31:39,613 --> 00:31:44,093
Speaker 3: proposals I have seen, not one contains a list of

466
00:31:44,133 --> 00:31:47,333
Speaker 3: those that will be dropped from permanent membership. But if

467
00:31:47,373 --> 00:31:49,813
Speaker 3: you don't do that, then you just expand it and

468
00:31:49,853 --> 00:31:55,213
Speaker 3: make it completely unwieldy and unworkable. Would we include Russia

469
00:31:55,253 --> 00:31:58,573
Speaker 3: as a permanent member today? I doubt it. Would we

470
00:31:58,613 --> 00:32:00,773
Speaker 3: include both the UK and the France, or even one

471
00:32:00,813 --> 00:32:03,853
Speaker 3: of them as a permanent member? I am not convinced.

472
00:32:04,693 --> 00:32:08,733
Speaker 3: Would we include injure? Almost certainly? Would we include result

473
00:32:09,053 --> 00:32:11,933
Speaker 3: I think very likely. Would we have a system where

474
00:32:11,933 --> 00:32:15,573
Speaker 3: you don't have a single permanent member from Africa, especially

475
00:32:15,573 --> 00:32:17,933
Speaker 3: as the agenda of the United Nations in both the

476
00:32:17,973 --> 00:32:21,493
Speaker 3: development side and the peace and security side have been

477
00:32:21,493 --> 00:32:25,413
Speaker 3: dominated by African issues and African supitits again, I doubt it.

478
00:32:26,053 --> 00:32:30,253
Speaker 3: So if you can't drop and change and add to

479
00:32:30,373 --> 00:32:33,813
Speaker 3: have let's say, expand the Security Council from fifteen to

480
00:32:33,813 --> 00:32:37,093
Speaker 3: twenty five and have eight instead of five permanent members,

481
00:32:37,773 --> 00:32:41,493
Speaker 3: and by permanent making maybe make them fifteen year terms,

482
00:32:41,493 --> 00:32:44,773
Speaker 3: but then renewable by election rather than just forever, because

483
00:32:44,773 --> 00:32:48,053
Speaker 3: the world can change again, And think about whether you

484
00:32:48,093 --> 00:32:50,093
Speaker 3: want veto for everyone or whether you want a single

485
00:32:50,173 --> 00:32:54,413
Speaker 3: veto anymore longer in order to have a better balance

486
00:32:54,453 --> 00:32:59,253
Speaker 3: between permissive and restrictive authority of your supreme decision making

487
00:32:59,253 --> 00:33:02,413
Speaker 3: body in the world. Then you have a different structure now,

488
00:33:02,413 --> 00:33:05,853
Speaker 3: because this is considered to be so difficult to reform.

489
00:33:06,213 --> 00:33:10,893
Speaker 3: Proposals end up tinkering with that which is double rather

490
00:33:10,933 --> 00:33:13,773
Speaker 3: than that which is most important and most urgent. And

491
00:33:13,813 --> 00:33:16,733
Speaker 3: since that's not feasible in the for semial feature favor,

492
00:33:17,333 --> 00:33:21,493
Speaker 3: I think we have to convene another San Francisco type

493
00:33:21,493 --> 00:33:25,493
Speaker 3: conference to redesign United Nations two point zero because the

494
00:33:25,533 --> 00:33:28,133
Speaker 3: need for it still remains. So the answer, the strong

495
00:33:28,213 --> 00:33:31,253
Speaker 3: answer to your question is I think it is no

496
00:33:31,373 --> 00:33:33,613
Speaker 3: longer fit for purpose, and I don't think it's capable

497
00:33:33,613 --> 00:33:39,373
Speaker 3: of being seriously, substantively, substantially reformed. So we do need

498
00:33:39,373 --> 00:33:41,613
Speaker 3: to think of a replacement. And the failures are there.

499
00:33:41,693 --> 00:33:43,773
Speaker 3: I don't have to go through that. Everyone knows.

500
00:33:43,853 --> 00:33:47,573
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right. So the problem, the problem that then

501
00:33:47,613 --> 00:33:51,733
Speaker 2: confronts anybody involved is how do you how do you

502
00:33:51,813 --> 00:33:55,493
Speaker 2: re establable, how do you re establish it from its

503
00:33:55,493 --> 00:33:58,293
Speaker 2: present existence, or how do you in this day and age,

504
00:33:58,333 --> 00:34:03,533
Speaker 2: go about setting up something that is competitive or a replace.

505
00:34:05,173 --> 00:34:10,653
Speaker 4: You identify who are the major powers, to identify which

506
00:34:10,773 --> 00:34:15,373
Speaker 4: major powers and which additional countries may be have its

507
00:34:15,493 --> 00:34:20,973
Speaker 4: history and traditional and the depth of experience as skill

508
00:34:21,013 --> 00:34:23,653
Speaker 4: sets to be able to engage in what we call

509
00:34:24,413 --> 00:34:28,493
Speaker 4: normative entrepreneurship in orders to provide the normative leadership, bring

510
00:34:28,533 --> 00:34:32,133
Speaker 4: them together in an expert group first, and then with

511
00:34:32,453 --> 00:34:38,733
Speaker 4: the political leadership, engage into reimagining a new United Nations

512
00:34:39,733 --> 00:34:43,093
Speaker 4: and then send out invitations to bringing them together in

513
00:34:43,133 --> 00:34:48,893
Speaker 4: another location to negotiate the doctor final eyes and procestees

514
00:34:49,573 --> 00:34:53,293
Speaker 4: in terms of a new United Nations to zero charter

515
00:34:54,733 --> 00:34:57,453
Speaker 4: and get them to agree to that sign off and

516
00:34:57,653 --> 00:35:01,493
Speaker 4: ratify it if they have to in their constitutional processes.

517
00:35:01,733 --> 00:35:04,853
Speaker 4: So exactly how the United Nations was set up, exactly

518
00:35:04,933 --> 00:35:07,053
Speaker 4: how the League of Nations was set up. It means

519
00:35:07,373 --> 00:35:13,013
Speaker 4: leadership by champions with the relevant experience and weight, so

520
00:35:13,133 --> 00:35:15,493
Speaker 4: diplomatic heft is important.

521
00:35:16,533 --> 00:35:19,093
Speaker 2: That's a lee to that you didn't mention that you

522
00:35:19,093 --> 00:35:19,693
Speaker 2: didn't mention.

523
00:35:19,613 --> 00:35:23,213
Speaker 3: That I was going to say. That means you have

524
00:35:23,293 --> 00:35:26,773
Speaker 3: to have the United States as one of the leading actors. Now,

525
00:35:27,653 --> 00:35:30,813
Speaker 3: United States always comes with some baggage, so there is

526
00:35:30,853 --> 00:35:34,813
Speaker 3: an instinctive suspicion if the United States takes it up.

527
00:35:35,333 --> 00:35:38,813
Speaker 3: But you can't get very far with any international effort

528
00:35:38,813 --> 00:35:41,493
Speaker 3: these days without the United States. And that's going to

529
00:35:41,493 --> 00:35:45,173
Speaker 3: be a factor regardless of who is present at any

530
00:35:45,213 --> 00:35:47,853
Speaker 3: given time. So it has to be there, but the

531
00:35:47,933 --> 00:35:51,533
Speaker 3: United States cannot do it on its own. And that

532
00:35:51,693 --> 00:35:56,893
Speaker 3: is a problem that I think affects trump approach to

533
00:35:56,933 --> 00:36:01,573
Speaker 3: world events. He takes decisions and then asks others to

534
00:36:01,653 --> 00:36:03,493
Speaker 3: join him. But he's going to be in child sort

535
00:36:03,533 --> 00:36:05,373
Speaker 3: of thing. It's not going to work like that. It

536
00:36:05,373 --> 00:36:08,053
Speaker 3: takes the leadership, but it's not the only one at

537
00:36:08,053 --> 00:36:11,053
Speaker 3: the top table. They have to be others and they

538
00:36:11,293 --> 00:36:13,773
Speaker 3: come together and do that. That's the only way to

539
00:36:13,813 --> 00:36:14,293
Speaker 3: go forward.

540
00:36:16,853 --> 00:36:23,413
Speaker 2: Sorry, the I I saw in my in my mind

541
00:36:23,613 --> 00:36:27,973
Speaker 2: as you said that, that that picture of the first

542
00:36:28,013 --> 00:36:34,853
Speaker 2: time that Trump went to Europe and was confronting European leaders,

543
00:36:35,093 --> 00:36:38,653
Speaker 2: world leaders. He was sitting. They were standing over him,

544
00:36:38,693 --> 00:36:40,213
Speaker 2: most of them, you know the one I'm talking about,

545
00:36:41,573 --> 00:36:41,973
Speaker 2: And that was.

546
00:36:41,933 --> 00:36:45,133
Speaker 3: Angel and Mercle leaning intoward the rest. You got it,

547
00:36:45,573 --> 00:36:46,293
Speaker 3: that's the one.

548
00:36:47,013 --> 00:36:50,333
Speaker 2: How do you how do you avoid that? It doesn't

549
00:36:50,333 --> 00:36:53,373
Speaker 2: matter whether it's him or Ronald Reagan or whoever it

550
00:36:53,453 --> 00:36:59,453
Speaker 2: might be. You can't. You can't really forever avoid the

551
00:36:59,493 --> 00:37:03,973
Speaker 2: strengths of an individual or a country combined to play

552
00:37:03,973 --> 00:37:04,973
Speaker 2: everybody else's game.

553
00:37:06,733 --> 00:37:09,493
Speaker 3: No, you can't. And I'm not sure that Trump would

554
00:37:09,573 --> 00:37:13,133
Speaker 3: necessarily be the best person for that sort of role.

555
00:37:13,173 --> 00:37:17,693
Speaker 3: You know, he's a deal maker. Deal Maker is almost

556
00:37:17,813 --> 00:37:21,293
Speaker 3: sort of well, it's clocked into winners and losers for

557
00:37:21,333 --> 00:37:24,333
Speaker 3: room bok, isn't it? And the best deal for one

558
00:37:24,373 --> 00:37:27,173
Speaker 3: party the other the other. I mean, you can't have

559
00:37:27,293 --> 00:37:34,013
Speaker 3: today any international organization without having the United States and China.

560
00:37:34,053 --> 00:37:37,013
Speaker 3: Let's begin with these two without having both of them

561
00:37:37,333 --> 00:37:41,853
Speaker 3: at the table for designing the new institutions and for

562
00:37:41,973 --> 00:37:45,013
Speaker 3: agreeing to break up how and who is going to

563
00:37:45,133 --> 00:37:50,813
Speaker 3: run the new institutions. At the moment, the statuscore powers,

564
00:37:50,813 --> 00:37:54,133
Speaker 3: shall we say, represented in the G seven, have been

565
00:37:54,333 --> 00:37:59,693
Speaker 3: so resistant to giving any meaningful role to the rising

566
00:37:59,813 --> 00:38:03,973
Speaker 3: powers that the latter group gave up in frustration and

567
00:38:04,053 --> 00:38:07,493
Speaker 3: set up their own grouping called the Bricks, which has

568
00:38:07,533 --> 00:38:10,613
Speaker 3: now expanded to be un sustainable membership I think, But

569
00:38:10,653 --> 00:38:15,613
Speaker 3: that's a different issue. And Bricks emerged as a direct

570
00:38:15,693 --> 00:38:20,493
Speaker 3: competitor on economic financial governance arrangements globally to the G seven,

571
00:38:21,013 --> 00:38:26,773
Speaker 3: which was the old western colonial powers essentially. And then

572
00:38:26,813 --> 00:38:29,693
Speaker 3: they realized that this isn't going to work, so they

573
00:38:29,693 --> 00:38:32,773
Speaker 3: came together in the G twenty. But in looking at

574
00:38:32,773 --> 00:38:36,333
Speaker 3: the G twenty, they didn't quite get it right in

575
00:38:36,413 --> 00:38:39,213
Speaker 3: terms of numbers at the table because it destroyed the

576
00:38:39,213 --> 00:38:43,733
Speaker 3: all purpose of having a relatively small group. Again, I

577
00:38:43,773 --> 00:38:45,493
Speaker 3: was involved in that in a small group that was

578
00:38:45,613 --> 00:38:49,693
Speaker 3: running that as a I feel like simulation exercise. That

579
00:38:49,773 --> 00:38:53,813
Speaker 3: this was in Canada, and we thought the ideal number

580
00:38:53,813 --> 00:38:57,973
Speaker 3: of participants at the table should be around fourteen or fifteen.

581
00:38:59,053 --> 00:39:01,853
Speaker 3: But we also thought that we already had in existence

582
00:39:02,693 --> 00:39:05,813
Speaker 3: the G twenty finance minister's meeting and it will be

583
00:39:05,813 --> 00:39:09,333
Speaker 3: easier to move that to a leader's level meeting. And

584
00:39:09,373 --> 00:39:13,973
Speaker 3: the idea essentially originated with Paul Martin, the former Finance

585
00:39:14,053 --> 00:39:18,013
Speaker 3: Minister and then Prime Minister of Canada, and he and

586
00:39:18,093 --> 00:39:21,093
Speaker 3: Larry Sommers, who has now been disgraced as part of

587
00:39:21,133 --> 00:39:28,613
Speaker 3: the Epstein's scandal, But he and Larry Sommers initiated the

588
00:39:28,693 --> 00:39:32,613
Speaker 3: G twenty Finance Ministers after the Asian financial crisis of

589
00:39:32,693 --> 00:39:38,533
Speaker 3: the mid late nineties and Paul's experience with that was

590
00:39:38,573 --> 00:39:45,093
Speaker 3: that this personal relationships of the leaders will facilitate a

591
00:39:45,173 --> 00:39:49,173
Speaker 3: degree of intimacy and comfort levels where they can make

592
00:39:49,213 --> 00:39:53,533
Speaker 3: the decisions. It's only leaders who can engage in trading

593
00:39:53,573 --> 00:39:59,013
Speaker 3: apples for oranges. If you like ministers grunt because their

594
00:39:59,053 --> 00:40:03,093
Speaker 3: responsibility is a per portfolio. Leaders have overall responsibility back

595
00:40:03,093 --> 00:40:06,733
Speaker 3: to the policy trail of argument, and if they have

596
00:40:06,853 --> 00:40:10,693
Speaker 3: the trust and can speak without the presence of their

597
00:40:11,093 --> 00:40:14,693
Speaker 3: advisors and bureaucrats, then they can go back and tell

598
00:40:14,733 --> 00:40:18,093
Speaker 3: the bureaucracy what they have decided and instruct them to

599
00:40:18,173 --> 00:40:22,013
Speaker 3: make it possible. And if the leaders are committed, it's

600
00:40:22,053 --> 00:40:26,733
Speaker 3: possible to overcome built in institutional hurdles. Now this is

601
00:40:27,933 --> 00:40:31,693
Speaker 3: before we realize just how entrance and powerful the socord

602
00:40:31,693 --> 00:40:35,453
Speaker 3: blog is the blob I mean is so that was

603
00:40:35,493 --> 00:40:37,573
Speaker 3: the idea, but for that he said, we agreed you

604
00:40:37,733 --> 00:40:40,693
Speaker 3: only need fourteen or fifteen people, but you can work

605
00:40:40,693 --> 00:40:43,533
Speaker 3: with twenty. But in practice, the G twenty now has

606
00:40:43,573 --> 00:40:46,453
Speaker 3: any number of hangers on what is it? It's closer to

607
00:40:46,573 --> 00:40:49,573
Speaker 3: forty than twenty. Actually, when you start once you start

608
00:40:49,733 --> 00:40:51,773
Speaker 3: looking around as to who else is there? The UN

609
00:40:51,853 --> 00:40:54,293
Speaker 3: Secretary General is there? The OEC these Secretary General is

610
00:40:54,333 --> 00:40:58,133
Speaker 3: there a lot of other real organizations secretaries general are

611
00:40:58,133 --> 00:41:02,053
Speaker 3: also there. I've lost interest, you know, they just expanded

612
00:41:02,093 --> 00:41:07,293
Speaker 3: all over and then you still face the problem of

613
00:41:07,373 --> 00:41:10,533
Speaker 3: the G twenty that is still a self selected group

614
00:41:11,093 --> 00:41:16,213
Speaker 3: and it will have the efficiency and effectiveness but it

615
00:41:16,333 --> 00:41:20,133
Speaker 3: lacks the universal legitimacy and that can only come from

616
00:41:20,173 --> 00:41:23,893
Speaker 3: the United Nations. So our conclusion then was that even

617
00:41:24,013 --> 00:41:26,973
Speaker 3: the leaders of the most powerful or the phrase that

618
00:41:27,013 --> 00:41:30,333
Speaker 3: we use, was the systemically most significant actors in the

619
00:41:30,373 --> 00:41:35,453
Speaker 3: world order okay in terms of the economic weight, populations, size,

620
00:41:36,013 --> 00:41:39,133
Speaker 3: military power, et cetera. If they can make an agreement

621
00:41:39,693 --> 00:41:43,093
Speaker 3: that covers pretty close to one hundred percent of economic

622
00:41:43,133 --> 00:41:47,613
Speaker 3: activities and a vast majority of population, et cetera, they

623
00:41:47,653 --> 00:41:52,933
Speaker 3: will still need to have that decision validated and gratified

624
00:41:52,973 --> 00:41:56,253
Speaker 3: in the UN system, because at the moment, there is

625
00:41:56,493 --> 00:42:01,253
Speaker 3: no other organization that has universal legitimacy and doesn't have

626
00:42:01,413 --> 00:42:05,533
Speaker 3: So the cross between legitimacy and efficiency, you get the

627
00:42:05,533 --> 00:42:09,253
Speaker 3: efficiency from Z twenty, you get the legitimacy room United Nations.

628
00:42:09,573 --> 00:42:11,373
Speaker 3: So if you were to have a new United Nations,

629
00:42:12,413 --> 00:42:14,293
Speaker 3: you need to see how you can combine these two

630
00:42:14,373 --> 00:42:17,853
Speaker 3: requirements in that as well, and then get rid of

631
00:42:17,893 --> 00:42:24,493
Speaker 3: these minilateral and multilateral or lateral periferating g groups as well.

632
00:42:25,293 --> 00:42:27,773
Speaker 3: At the moment, you just got a dog's breakfast of

633
00:42:28,213 --> 00:42:31,533
Speaker 3: doble governance arrangements, so you need to rationalize and bring

634
00:42:31,573 --> 00:42:32,013
Speaker 3: them together.

635
00:42:33,013 --> 00:42:35,653
Speaker 2: I can't find fault with what you're saying, but I

636
00:42:35,693 --> 00:42:40,293
Speaker 2: can I can question it. In part, it's very easy

637
00:42:40,333 --> 00:42:42,613
Speaker 2: to talk about this is how it will work or

638
00:42:42,693 --> 00:42:47,413
Speaker 2: must work or whatever. But you were right in drawing

639
00:42:47,453 --> 00:42:52,013
Speaker 2: attention to all the other all the others that are

640
00:42:52,013 --> 00:42:54,653
Speaker 2: holding conferences all over the world all the time, et cetera,

641
00:42:55,813 --> 00:43:01,133
Speaker 2: including the World Economic Forum, which I despise, but.

642
00:43:03,373 --> 00:43:05,133
Speaker 3: There you have a growing followership in that.

643
00:43:06,213 --> 00:43:11,093
Speaker 2: How can you on a continue basis prevent corruption from

644
00:43:11,173 --> 00:43:11,813
Speaker 2: creeping in?

645
00:43:12,293 --> 00:43:17,293
Speaker 3: It's again a much larger problem we you know, come

646
00:43:17,333 --> 00:43:20,253
Speaker 3: back to states where it should be easier to control it.

647
00:43:21,373 --> 00:43:24,773
Speaker 3: What we have seen is, again we've talked about this before,

648
00:43:24,773 --> 00:43:27,933
Speaker 3: we were going from national security state and surveillance state

649
00:43:27,973 --> 00:43:34,213
Speaker 3: to the administrative state, where parliaments have delegated responsibility to

650
00:43:35,293 --> 00:43:41,093
Speaker 3: quongos and experts. Executives have done the same, and the

651
00:43:41,093 --> 00:43:46,173
Speaker 3: expert class has even started acting in quasi judicial manner

652
00:43:46,253 --> 00:43:49,973
Speaker 3: in various things. So that growth of the administrative state

653
00:43:51,173 --> 00:43:53,693
Speaker 3: has now been replicated at the international level with an

654
00:43:53,773 --> 00:43:57,373
Speaker 3: international technocratic elite. And that's where in that democracy art

655
00:43:57,413 --> 00:43:59,973
Speaker 3: all I made the point that the old left right

656
00:44:00,053 --> 00:44:06,413
Speaker 3: divide based on economic governing philosophy has been overtaken by

657
00:44:06,413 --> 00:44:09,613
Speaker 3: a divide between the techmocratic elites at both national and

658
00:44:09,653 --> 00:44:13,813
Speaker 3: international level and the massive people and the reaction to

659
00:44:13,973 --> 00:44:17,013
Speaker 3: that which is very strong. And you know, I give

660
00:44:17,013 --> 00:44:19,053
Speaker 3: the example, and we've talked about it of the so

661
00:44:19,173 --> 00:44:23,013
Speaker 3: called Voice in Australia a couple of years ago, when

662
00:44:23,213 --> 00:44:26,533
Speaker 3: all the elite, different dimensions or domains of the elite

663
00:44:26,613 --> 00:44:29,973
Speaker 3: were united in supporting it, and yet the proposal was

664
00:44:30,013 --> 00:44:33,493
Speaker 3: defeated sixty forty when put to the vote, and then

665
00:44:33,573 --> 00:44:36,973
Speaker 3: the people rejected it. But did the elites accept that verdict. No.

666
00:44:37,213 --> 00:44:40,013
Speaker 3: I mean, just as you have efforts of foot in

667
00:44:40,093 --> 00:44:44,133
Speaker 3: the UK to reverse Brexit vote. Similarly at the state

668
00:44:44,213 --> 00:44:47,813
Speaker 3: level they've been doing quietly equivalent to the Voice into

669
00:44:47,853 --> 00:44:52,733
Speaker 3: the system, and there is a massive answer against that.

670
00:44:53,373 --> 00:44:58,333
Speaker 3: And again polls have shown overwhelming rejection of this welcome

671
00:44:58,333 --> 00:45:00,853
Speaker 3: to country and acknowledgment of country and stuff like that

672
00:45:01,693 --> 00:45:05,773
Speaker 3: in Australia. But if anything, is still seemed to be proliferating,

673
00:45:06,533 --> 00:45:09,853
Speaker 3: and so you have the decline of conference and faith

674
00:45:10,973 --> 00:45:14,213
Speaker 3: in the democratic system as a system. I think the

675
00:45:14,253 --> 00:45:17,933
Speaker 3: same applies into global things as well. We need to

676
00:45:18,573 --> 00:45:24,293
Speaker 3: recognize that any bureaucracy that exists for eight decades, will

677
00:45:24,333 --> 00:45:27,493
Speaker 3: have a set of vested interests, and that affects even

678
00:45:27,573 --> 00:45:32,053
Speaker 3: its governance arrangements. I was with the Inachnaesian University at

679
00:45:32,053 --> 00:45:34,693
Speaker 3: a senior level. If we went to our governing council

680
00:45:35,333 --> 00:45:39,533
Speaker 3: and said we have fourteen institutes around the world, we

681
00:45:39,773 --> 00:45:43,773
Speaker 3: like to close the following four, the automatic instinctive response

682
00:45:43,933 --> 00:45:47,013
Speaker 3: is that's a backwards step. But as we say, I

683
00:45:47,133 --> 00:45:51,933
Speaker 3: want to add another four and these are the sources

684
00:45:51,933 --> 00:45:55,213
Speaker 3: from which we have funding for this, including endowment fund,

685
00:45:55,493 --> 00:45:58,613
Speaker 3: can you please approve, the assumption will be that they

686
00:45:58,653 --> 00:46:00,653
Speaker 3: would say yes because they think it's a sign of

687
00:46:00,693 --> 00:46:03,413
Speaker 3: success that they are growing, so that means we have

688
00:46:03,493 --> 00:46:06,533
Speaker 3: more authority, we have more reach, we have more budget,

689
00:46:08,413 --> 00:46:12,413
Speaker 3: and then at some point doing this in terms of

690
00:46:12,493 --> 00:46:16,973
Speaker 3: growth of the bureaucracy overrides the region why we set

691
00:46:17,093 --> 00:46:21,173
Speaker 3: up to as an international bureaucracy in the first place,

692
00:46:21,773 --> 00:46:25,573
Speaker 3: and that has happened, as I said, even nationally. And

693
00:46:25,733 --> 00:46:27,853
Speaker 3: it was one of the arguments sincidentally against the boys,

694
00:46:27,893 --> 00:46:30,653
Speaker 3: that if you have a new department, it will have

695
00:46:30,733 --> 00:46:34,213
Speaker 3: a vested interest, you know, the executive of that and

696
00:46:34,333 --> 00:46:36,213
Speaker 3: the personnel and that want to keep their jobs on

697
00:46:36,333 --> 00:46:39,773
Speaker 3: to expand their authority, want to expand their budget, and

698
00:46:39,893 --> 00:46:42,893
Speaker 3: that's how it goes. Over eight decades, that becomes very

699
00:46:43,653 --> 00:46:47,053
Speaker 3: much entrenched. Now at the national level, we do have

700
00:46:47,213 --> 00:46:51,973
Speaker 3: elections at precent democracies, we do have political ministers who

701
00:46:51,973 --> 00:46:55,773
Speaker 3: are supposed to be the posses of that. We've seen

702
00:46:55,893 --> 00:46:59,173
Speaker 3: that has become less and less true. And in fact,

703
00:46:59,253 --> 00:47:03,573
Speaker 3: the entrenched bureaucracy, you know, going back to Yes Minister

704
00:47:03,933 --> 00:47:08,093
Speaker 3: and Yes Prime Minister committee series, that's become more of

705
00:47:08,173 --> 00:47:10,453
Speaker 3: a problem rather than less of a problem in the

706
00:47:10,533 --> 00:47:13,293
Speaker 3: decades since. And the reason that was such a successful

707
00:47:13,373 --> 00:47:17,213
Speaker 3: TV round I was they've got it exactly right in

708
00:47:17,373 --> 00:47:18,453
Speaker 3: terms of the relationship.

709
00:47:18,693 --> 00:47:23,773
Speaker 2: Is democracy Well, actually this trainscends into another discussion, but

710
00:47:24,253 --> 00:47:26,693
Speaker 2: it's not meant to be connected to the article that

711
00:47:26,773 --> 00:47:30,613
Speaker 2: you wrote at this point anyway. But do you think

712
00:47:30,693 --> 00:47:34,413
Speaker 2: that it would be legitimate to say that democracy as

713
00:47:34,493 --> 00:47:36,213
Speaker 2: we've known it is finished?

714
00:47:38,413 --> 00:47:41,093
Speaker 3: I don't think it's finished, and I think the reaction

715
00:47:41,333 --> 00:47:45,453
Speaker 3: shows that people want to re estate control take that control.

716
00:47:47,053 --> 00:47:50,093
Speaker 3: And again after the South Australian elections over the weekend,

717
00:47:50,173 --> 00:47:53,373
Speaker 3: Colin Hansen actually said in her victory speech, well, I

718
00:47:53,413 --> 00:47:55,213
Speaker 3: shouldn't say victory speech. But you know what I mean,

719
00:47:56,693 --> 00:48:00,653
Speaker 3: the celebratory speech that do you want to take back

720
00:48:00,693 --> 00:48:04,933
Speaker 3: our country? That is a fairly widespread sentiment now across

721
00:48:04,973 --> 00:48:08,893
Speaker 3: the Western world in terms of the feeling that and

722
00:48:09,013 --> 00:48:11,333
Speaker 3: that's also reflected in the feeling of people that we

723
00:48:11,413 --> 00:48:14,773
Speaker 3: have lost control of our lives. We want the country

724
00:48:14,853 --> 00:48:17,573
Speaker 3: back that we grew up in, that has centuries of

725
00:48:17,613 --> 00:48:20,573
Speaker 3: tradition and history behind it, that we love, and we

726
00:48:20,693 --> 00:48:26,173
Speaker 3: want to change patriotism to be a positive sentiment again

727
00:48:26,453 --> 00:48:28,893
Speaker 3: rather than want to be derided and dismissed, et cetera.

728
00:48:29,453 --> 00:48:33,093
Speaker 3: So these are the shorthands for saying they feel they

729
00:48:33,133 --> 00:48:36,173
Speaker 3: have lost control over their lives and destiny and they

730
00:48:36,253 --> 00:48:40,173
Speaker 3: want to retake it. And if that means a reaction

731
00:48:40,293 --> 00:48:44,813
Speaker 3: against globalization, so be it. If it means breaking the

732
00:48:44,893 --> 00:48:48,093
Speaker 3: stranglehold of the so called uni parties in favor of

733
00:48:48,173 --> 00:48:51,733
Speaker 3: insurgent parties, so be it as well. So this whole

734
00:48:51,813 --> 00:48:55,693
Speaker 3: notion of dismissing Nail Ferage or Pauline Hansen or the

735
00:48:55,813 --> 00:48:59,293
Speaker 3: AFT in Germany, or even Georgia Milonei earlier in Italy,

736
00:49:00,093 --> 00:49:04,173
Speaker 3: or Marine le Pen in France as populist leaders, what

737
00:49:04,293 --> 00:49:08,333
Speaker 3: does that mean populist means they are responding to concerns

738
00:49:08,813 --> 00:49:12,853
Speaker 3: shared by a substantial segment of the population, perhaps even

739
00:49:12,893 --> 00:49:17,053
Speaker 3: a majority, in terms of what they want at the moment,

740
00:49:17,133 --> 00:49:20,333
Speaker 3: particularly with respect to mass amigration, but also with respect

741
00:49:20,373 --> 00:49:24,893
Speaker 3: to energy security, with respect to cultural that cultural identity

742
00:49:25,293 --> 00:49:29,173
Speaker 3: is respect to national identity. And if the majority or

743
00:49:29,173 --> 00:49:32,853
Speaker 3: a substantial segment of the population wants that, and there

744
00:49:32,893 --> 00:49:36,613
Speaker 3: are leaders and the parties responding to that, well that

745
00:49:37,013 --> 00:49:41,093
Speaker 3: is what democracy is supposed to do, translate what people

746
00:49:41,253 --> 00:49:46,413
Speaker 3: want into governing and governance arrangements and public policies exactly.

747
00:49:47,653 --> 00:49:51,093
Speaker 3: But in fact they're trying to resist that and verify

748
00:49:51,253 --> 00:49:54,973
Speaker 3: those who do that and dismiss them and make them anathema,

749
00:49:56,293 --> 00:49:59,853
Speaker 3: and that in turn means people begin to lose confidence

750
00:49:59,893 --> 00:50:03,973
Speaker 3: in that. So just this morning reading the telegraph from

751
00:50:03,973 --> 00:50:06,533
Speaker 3: the UK overnight, and one of the things I don't

752
00:50:06,533 --> 00:50:11,653
Speaker 3: know if you've seen that, is how the slump in

753
00:50:11,773 --> 00:50:14,893
Speaker 3: conference in the police and criminal justice system is in

754
00:50:15,093 --> 00:50:19,733
Speaker 3: fact being led by people who identify as reformed UK voters.

755
00:50:20,733 --> 00:50:22,613
Speaker 3: So I don't know if you've seen that. I've just

756
00:50:22,693 --> 00:50:24,453
Speaker 3: got on my screen. I kept it for this reason.

757
00:50:25,173 --> 00:50:27,693
Speaker 3: Only thirty percent of the party's voters said they had

758
00:50:27,733 --> 00:50:31,213
Speaker 3: confidence in the digital system, compared with sixty seven percent

759
00:50:31,253 --> 00:50:34,973
Speaker 3: of labor and sixty three percent of Conservatives voters. Fewer

760
00:50:34,973 --> 00:50:38,013
Speaker 3: than half of reform voters, forty seven percent say they

761
00:50:38,053 --> 00:50:43,013
Speaker 3: have confidence in the local police force. This dissatisfaction amongst

762
00:50:43,053 --> 00:50:46,773
Speaker 3: reform voters contributed to the biggest annual drop in confidence

763
00:50:47,093 --> 00:50:50,773
Speaker 3: in the judicial system on record, from sixty nine percent

764
00:50:51,013 --> 00:50:54,373
Speaker 3: twenty four to fifty seven percent in twenty five, while

765
00:50:54,373 --> 00:50:57,133
Speaker 3: those voicing a lack of confidence arose from thirty to

766
00:50:57,253 --> 00:51:00,613
Speaker 3: forty three percent. That is a general phenomenon. It just

767
00:51:00,693 --> 00:51:04,933
Speaker 3: happens to be measured there. So that's I thinks relevant

768
00:51:05,333 --> 00:51:12,653
Speaker 3: to this. And there's also this other thing which if

769
00:51:12,693 --> 00:51:14,373
Speaker 3: I can find it somewhere.

770
00:51:18,693 --> 00:51:24,053
Speaker 2: While you're looking, there's there's a couple of things that

771
00:51:24,573 --> 00:51:26,613
Speaker 2: that that I need to ask with regard to what

772
00:51:26,653 --> 00:51:30,573
Speaker 2: you've said the for a democracy you need you need

773
00:51:30,693 --> 00:51:35,293
Speaker 2: good education. Yeah, uh, we don't have good education or

774
00:51:35,373 --> 00:51:39,253
Speaker 2: haven't had it in Australia and New Zealand and other

775
00:51:39,333 --> 00:51:42,853
Speaker 2: countries for for some considerable time. Now let me justify,

776
00:51:43,133 --> 00:51:46,373
Speaker 2: let me justify that we haven't seen it just well,

777
00:51:46,453 --> 00:51:50,573
Speaker 2: not this year anyway. But kids get taught things in school,

778
00:51:50,853 --> 00:51:54,493
Speaker 2: encouraged to believe things in schools that are that are

779
00:51:54,773 --> 00:52:01,973
Speaker 2: not true. And I would I would utilize the climate discussion,

780
00:52:02,653 --> 00:52:06,013
Speaker 2: the Great Climate Discussion is as one of them, because

781
00:52:06,053 --> 00:52:10,373
Speaker 2: they're they're getting they're getting mine blown with with one

782
00:52:10,573 --> 00:52:14,173
Speaker 2: with one perspective and don't even get the chance to

783
00:52:14,253 --> 00:52:17,853
Speaker 2: appreciate what alternative there is, let alone dwell on it

784
00:52:17,933 --> 00:52:20,573
Speaker 2: and come to a different conclusion. So they they even

785
00:52:20,653 --> 00:52:25,653
Speaker 2: get pushed into taking Fridays off and going marching in

786
00:52:25,693 --> 00:52:28,853
Speaker 2: the city. And that's happened all over Australia, it's happened

787
00:52:28,853 --> 00:52:31,813
Speaker 2: in New Zealand. And so these kids are voting for

788
00:52:32,093 --> 00:52:36,133
Speaker 2: idiots in parliament and we've only just dispensed with one

789
00:52:36,213 --> 00:52:40,613
Speaker 2: government that well a little while back, with one government

790
00:52:40,773 --> 00:52:45,733
Speaker 2: falls into that category. So how can you establish a

791
00:52:46,133 --> 00:52:50,053
Speaker 2: decent democracy when you've got new arrivals in the country

792
00:52:50,093 --> 00:52:53,253
Speaker 2: that don't know anything about it, and lots of them,

793
00:52:53,453 --> 00:52:55,293
Speaker 2: and you've got kids that are being pushed out of

794
00:52:56,013 --> 00:52:59,733
Speaker 2: out of schools here with totally wrong beliefs, and the

795
00:52:59,813 --> 00:53:02,333
Speaker 2: inability to track down.

796
00:53:03,853 --> 00:53:10,253
Speaker 3: On the private martyrs looking at you, Yes, okay, that

797
00:53:10,413 --> 00:53:12,413
Speaker 3: acucizing with the thing I was looking for which I

798
00:53:12,493 --> 00:53:16,933
Speaker 3: found on the twentieth on Friday, just on the literally

799
00:53:17,013 --> 00:53:19,853
Speaker 3: on the eve of the South of student intelection, one

800
00:53:19,973 --> 00:53:25,493
Speaker 3: nation put out a little statement of just sixty four words,

801
00:53:26,613 --> 00:53:31,213
Speaker 3: which I think is the best summary, distillation, best success

802
00:53:31,373 --> 00:53:34,893
Speaker 3: statement of this problem with the energy thing that you're

803
00:53:34,893 --> 00:53:37,253
Speaker 3: talking about. Let me just read it out. I'm porting

804
00:53:37,333 --> 00:53:40,813
Speaker 3: directly from the entirety of their statement. Okay, we need

805
00:53:40,893 --> 00:53:45,373
Speaker 3: a secure, reliable energy future. Every leaf forward in human

806
00:53:45,493 --> 00:53:49,853
Speaker 3: progress has come from mastering energy, from fire to steam,

807
00:53:50,333 --> 00:53:54,933
Speaker 3: from coal to oil. Each step has powered stronger economies,

808
00:53:55,573 --> 00:53:59,973
Speaker 3: lifted people out of poverty, and secured our future. Energy

809
00:54:00,253 --> 00:54:04,213
Speaker 3: isn't a luxury, it's the backbone of prosperity. Get it

810
00:54:04,333 --> 00:54:09,053
Speaker 3: wrong and everything else suffers. Get it right and then thrives.

811
00:54:10,333 --> 00:54:14,773
Speaker 3: Now that is a remarkably concise and success statement of

812
00:54:15,333 --> 00:54:19,133
Speaker 3: what energy policy should be aiming for, and what is

813
00:54:19,213 --> 00:54:21,373
Speaker 3: benefits are and what the cost star if you get

814
00:54:21,413 --> 00:54:24,253
Speaker 3: it wrong. So that is one nation, and that is

815
00:54:24,373 --> 00:54:27,213
Speaker 3: something that I think is wrong. A lot of support

816
00:54:27,693 --> 00:54:32,373
Speaker 3: to these, as I said, populist insurgent parties. They recognize

817
00:54:32,413 --> 00:54:36,293
Speaker 3: that their primary duty is to their people and energy

818
00:54:36,333 --> 00:54:40,333
Speaker 3: security is fundamental to that. As opposed to ratings. The

819
00:54:40,453 --> 00:54:44,013
Speaker 3: second part of my response to your question is, yes,

820
00:54:44,253 --> 00:54:47,013
Speaker 3: education is important, but I wouldn't begin with school. I'd

821
00:54:47,053 --> 00:54:50,773
Speaker 3: begin with the universities because it is we in the

822
00:54:50,893 --> 00:54:56,173
Speaker 3: tertiary institutions who train the school teachers, who train these

823
00:54:56,293 --> 00:54:59,613
Speaker 3: days unit in your time and you began, it may

824
00:54:59,653 --> 00:55:03,253
Speaker 3: have impossible to go straight from school to journalism. Now

825
00:55:03,333 --> 00:55:07,693
Speaker 3: you need undergraduate degrees or qualifications in journalism. So we

826
00:55:07,813 --> 00:55:10,773
Speaker 3: train the journal we train as a financial expert. We

827
00:55:10,933 --> 00:55:14,173
Speaker 3: train pretty much close to one hundred percent, certainly of

828
00:55:14,253 --> 00:55:18,293
Speaker 3: the senior levels of the bureaucracy. Most of the politicians

829
00:55:18,413 --> 00:55:23,733
Speaker 3: now begin as students, get blooded in student politics and universities.

830
00:55:24,213 --> 00:55:27,293
Speaker 3: So you begin with universities and with the university is

831
00:55:27,333 --> 00:55:33,253
Speaker 3: what we have is a complete lack of viewpoint diversity.

832
00:55:33,733 --> 00:55:39,173
Speaker 3: Instead we have a geological uniformity. You know, university equals

833
00:55:39,293 --> 00:55:42,453
Speaker 3: lack of diversity. Put it that way, and as a result,

834
00:55:42,493 --> 00:55:46,733
Speaker 3: we have a misalignment with public sentiments. So talk. Here's

835
00:55:46,773 --> 00:55:52,213
Speaker 3: some from two of the world's leading universities. A study

836
00:55:52,333 --> 00:55:57,213
Speaker 3: by Yale University's Buckley Institute in December auster so it's

837
00:55:57,253 --> 00:56:00,933
Speaker 3: a new study examine the political leanings of faculty members

838
00:56:01,293 --> 00:56:06,093
Speaker 3: across all degree granting undergraduate departments plus the law and

839
00:56:06,173 --> 00:56:12,533
Speaker 3: management schools. See nearly seventeen hundred faculty they surveyed eighty

840
00:56:12,573 --> 00:56:16,893
Speaker 3: two percent were registered Democrats and two percent were Republicans.

841
00:56:17,453 --> 00:56:20,973
Speaker 3: Then the Yale Daily News looked at official federal election parlies.

842
00:56:21,133 --> 00:56:22,933
Speaker 3: Now this is easier with the US because that's the

843
00:56:22,973 --> 00:56:28,373
Speaker 3: only country that requires people as registered political affiliations to

844
00:56:28,493 --> 00:56:30,893
Speaker 3: be declared, and we don't have that in Australian New Zeeland,

845
00:56:31,413 --> 00:56:33,573
Speaker 3: and I hope you don't, but it's there anyway. The

846
00:56:33,693 --> 00:56:39,333
Speaker 3: Yale Daily News looked at and showed that ninety eight

847
00:56:39,453 --> 00:56:43,693
Speaker 3: percent of faculty donations in twenty twenty five last year

848
00:56:44,013 --> 00:56:47,653
Speaker 3: were to Democrats and not a single one to Republicans,

849
00:56:48,093 --> 00:56:51,213
Speaker 3: and a majority of undergraduate departments didn't have a single

850
00:56:51,693 --> 00:56:57,133
Speaker 3: Republican either. Similarly, a matching faculty survey by the Harvard Crimson,

851
00:56:57,213 --> 00:56:59,853
Speaker 3: their student newspaper in twenty twenty two, I don't know

852
00:56:59,853 --> 00:57:02,973
Speaker 3: if they've had more reasent ones showed that eighty two

853
00:57:03,013 --> 00:57:06,933
Speaker 3: point five percent of Harvard faculty identified as liberals stroke

854
00:57:07,053 --> 00:57:11,333
Speaker 3: very liberal, and only one point seven percent as conservative.

855
00:57:12,853 --> 00:57:16,013
Speaker 3: So your cates as situation in universities in the faculty

856
00:57:17,133 --> 00:57:20,973
Speaker 3: is highly surprising that they pass on that to the students,

857
00:57:21,333 --> 00:57:25,413
Speaker 3: and the students come from all these elite domains in

858
00:57:25,533 --> 00:57:29,333
Speaker 3: public life, and so that then gets reflected and transmitted

859
00:57:29,773 --> 00:57:35,133
Speaker 3: into schools and the kids get indoctrinated and hence that

860
00:57:36,053 --> 00:57:40,933
Speaker 3: feeling if you like that. Universities and schools therefore have

861
00:57:41,253 --> 00:57:47,253
Speaker 3: changed people from places and institutions where students are educated

862
00:57:48,493 --> 00:57:54,533
Speaker 3: into transmission channels for indoctrination of the prevailing orthodoxy in

863
00:57:54,653 --> 00:57:58,453
Speaker 3: the cultural and educational and intellectual elite. And that is

864
00:57:58,533 --> 00:58:03,613
Speaker 3: a problem, and it is fundamentally as orts de democracy.

865
00:58:03,693 --> 00:58:04,893
Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, go.

866
00:58:04,933 --> 00:58:08,053
Speaker 2: On, where do you get where do you get the

867
00:58:08,453 --> 00:58:12,053
Speaker 2: educators the staff to make that transition even to roll

868
00:58:12,093 --> 00:58:16,733
Speaker 2: it because those that are graduated fall into the categories

869
00:58:17,093 --> 00:58:20,013
Speaker 2: as you've just described them. So there is so there

870
00:58:20,093 --> 00:58:26,213
Speaker 2: is very little, highly restricted number of shall we say,

871
00:58:26,853 --> 00:58:30,933
Speaker 2: possible educators who could do it. So you start, you

872
00:58:31,013 --> 00:58:33,173
Speaker 2: start the movement, and it gets overwhelmed.

873
00:58:33,213 --> 00:58:33,413
Speaker 3: Again.

874
00:58:33,613 --> 00:58:35,573
Speaker 2: I can think of two or three two or three

875
00:58:35,613 --> 00:58:40,373
Speaker 2: American professors who who lost their jobs.

876
00:58:40,133 --> 00:58:41,413
Speaker 3: And you know, m h.

877
00:58:42,773 --> 00:58:46,253
Speaker 2: And there is a there is a great fear that

878
00:58:46,413 --> 00:58:49,373
Speaker 2: if you side with them, So somebody say somebody who

879
00:58:49,813 --> 00:58:52,853
Speaker 2: has the courage two and the balls, as they say,

880
00:58:52,973 --> 00:59:01,013
Speaker 2: to stand up. Yes, well, different language and and if

881
00:59:01,093 --> 00:59:05,373
Speaker 2: you're just trying to do politely, yeah, well would that

882
00:59:05,493 --> 00:59:06,893
Speaker 2: be polite in Mexico?

883
00:59:08,533 --> 00:59:10,173
Speaker 3: I don't know, but they are talking in the English

884
00:59:10,173 --> 00:59:10,853
Speaker 3: speaking context.

885
00:59:12,573 --> 00:59:16,253
Speaker 2: The well, the word is now. I avoided it for

886
00:59:16,293 --> 00:59:19,293
Speaker 2: a long time, but it's one of those words. It's

887
00:59:19,333 --> 00:59:24,413
Speaker 2: now become acceptable and its utilized quite quite frequently. But

888
00:59:25,333 --> 00:59:28,493
Speaker 2: if you make a stand in a university, you'll struggle

889
00:59:28,573 --> 00:59:31,093
Speaker 2: to find people to support you because they're too scared

890
00:59:31,253 --> 00:59:32,413
Speaker 2: of losing their own jobs.

891
00:59:34,533 --> 00:59:39,133
Speaker 3: Is that right? It says the number of polls have

892
00:59:39,253 --> 00:59:44,133
Speaker 3: confirmed that people are self censor quite a lot. So

893
00:59:44,253 --> 00:59:49,653
Speaker 3: I think again, you need to begin in politics, and

894
00:59:49,813 --> 00:59:54,653
Speaker 3: you need to identify parties and leaders who are prepared

895
00:59:54,653 --> 01:00:00,293
Speaker 3: to confront this and address it and readdress it. So

896
01:00:00,493 --> 01:00:03,333
Speaker 3: it has to begin from that, and you need people

897
01:00:03,493 --> 01:00:07,173
Speaker 3: with the confidence to go after that. In a sense,

898
01:00:07,293 --> 01:00:09,693
Speaker 3: I guess you could say that that Trump has tried

899
01:00:09,773 --> 01:00:12,973
Speaker 3: to do that in taking all the culture wars directly

900
01:00:13,613 --> 01:00:17,333
Speaker 3: and frontally instead of start stepping it in and ignoring

901
01:00:17,373 --> 01:00:20,773
Speaker 3: it with polities, and that's been the part of his attraction.

902
01:00:22,293 --> 01:00:25,133
Speaker 3: So the very things for which again Paulin Hansen has

903
01:00:25,173 --> 01:00:29,453
Speaker 3: been dismissed. She's not come around to being trusted because

904
01:00:29,493 --> 01:00:32,093
Speaker 3: she's been saying these things for thirty years and has

905
01:00:32,573 --> 01:00:36,733
Speaker 3: consistency and authenticity, and therefore from that I think she

906
01:00:36,853 --> 01:00:40,333
Speaker 3: is now gaining the trust of a wider cohort of

907
01:00:40,453 --> 01:00:43,013
Speaker 3: Australian voters who are giving up on the two main

908
01:00:43,053 --> 01:00:47,253
Speaker 3: parties because you go back to procedures and appointments at

909
01:00:47,413 --> 01:00:51,693
Speaker 3: top level, where one side believes in what it wants

910
01:00:51,733 --> 01:00:54,933
Speaker 3: to do and appoints its people to engage in that

911
01:00:55,093 --> 01:00:59,053
Speaker 3: agenda as CEOs of what the institution, and you have

912
01:00:59,133 --> 01:01:02,013
Speaker 3: the other side that's embarrassed and ashamed about that and

913
01:01:02,133 --> 01:01:05,053
Speaker 3: thinks this is a war that is not worth fighting,

914
01:01:05,973 --> 01:01:08,973
Speaker 3: whereas in fact we have evidence again from around the

915
01:01:09,013 --> 01:01:13,133
Speaker 3: world that for many people culture is important. So if

916
01:01:13,173 --> 01:01:15,133
Speaker 3: you make a change and I object to that on

917
01:01:15,533 --> 01:01:18,453
Speaker 3: terms of my beliefs, then you accuse me of fighting

918
01:01:18,493 --> 01:01:20,253
Speaker 3: a culture war, when in fact you're the ones who

919
01:01:20,293 --> 01:01:25,213
Speaker 3: started to do that. A very good example, certainly from

920
01:01:25,253 --> 01:01:29,653
Speaker 3: Australia is the E Safety Commission and the inaugural E

921
01:01:29,853 --> 01:01:33,373
Speaker 3: Safety Commissioner who has been appointed. The thing that was

922
01:01:33,453 --> 01:01:37,133
Speaker 3: done by the Coalition government, and Labor had been happy

923
01:01:37,213 --> 01:01:40,493
Speaker 3: to exploit that and take it even further in terms

924
01:01:40,533 --> 01:01:44,493
Speaker 3: of electronic censorship if you like, or censorship of the

925
01:01:44,573 --> 01:01:49,093
Speaker 3: digital media, etc. So, yes, it is part of that,

926
01:01:49,493 --> 01:01:52,853
Speaker 3: but you do need a top leader committed to that,

927
01:01:53,613 --> 01:01:57,613
Speaker 3: with a force of character and courage of conviction. I

928
01:01:57,733 --> 01:01:59,693
Speaker 3: don't think they have to be quite in the same

929
01:02:00,693 --> 01:02:04,173
Speaker 3: if you like, publicly vulgar mode as the American president,

930
01:02:05,093 --> 01:02:07,653
Speaker 3: but they need that strength of character to be able

931
01:02:07,693 --> 01:02:12,133
Speaker 3: to do it. So again, from the American context, someone

932
01:02:12,293 --> 01:02:16,653
Speaker 3: like Ron Dissenters in Florida or Vice President Jadvans in

933
01:02:16,733 --> 01:02:21,933
Speaker 3: the administration as well, a politer version slightly well not slightly,

934
01:02:22,013 --> 01:02:26,053
Speaker 3: quite a lot polier, but nonetheless with the same forceful

935
01:02:26,093 --> 01:02:29,253
Speaker 3: personality and strength of convictions and character to carry the

936
01:02:29,333 --> 01:02:31,653
Speaker 3: thing forward. You need that if you're going to reverse it.

937
01:02:32,613 --> 01:02:41,973
Speaker 3: Because the extent to which public purse subsidizes a lot

938
01:02:42,053 --> 01:02:46,413
Speaker 3: of this rubbish, it's not just quite astonishing but quite

939
01:02:46,453 --> 01:02:48,173
Speaker 3: frightening in a way in terms of how much of

940
01:02:48,213 --> 01:02:52,013
Speaker 3: our money it goes into subsidies for renewables, goes into

941
01:02:52,053 --> 01:02:58,373
Speaker 3: subsidies for arts then engage in indulging their luxury beliefs

942
01:02:58,973 --> 01:03:02,373
Speaker 3: and so on. So I think I'm not sure that

943
01:03:02,453 --> 01:03:08,973
Speaker 3: there is an alternative to voting identifying a market niche

944
01:03:09,093 --> 01:03:11,613
Speaker 3: or a market gap, if you like, in the political

945
01:03:11,693 --> 01:03:16,293
Speaker 3: party and then citizens recognizing that and voting for that.

946
01:03:16,653 --> 01:03:19,493
Speaker 3: Now that means they will need to build up a

947
01:03:19,653 --> 01:03:25,133
Speaker 3: core of quality candidates, which is where one nation still lacks.

948
01:03:26,053 --> 01:03:30,413
Speaker 3: This is where Reform UK has recognized that, and the

949
01:03:30,533 --> 01:03:35,533
Speaker 3: people that Nigel Faraj has brought in starting people like

950
01:03:36,813 --> 01:03:41,773
Speaker 3: the use of the use of or Robert Jeneric and others,

951
01:03:43,173 --> 01:03:46,053
Speaker 3: and some of the people that he has encouraged defection

952
01:03:46,173 --> 01:03:50,213
Speaker 3: from the old conservatives with the experience. You need to

953
01:03:50,533 --> 01:03:55,413
Speaker 3: be able to project credibility initially, that you have sufficient depth,

954
01:03:55,653 --> 01:04:00,893
Speaker 3: sufficient breadth of competent skilled people who know the system,

955
01:04:01,453 --> 01:04:03,973
Speaker 3: who know how to operate it and can break the

956
01:04:04,173 --> 01:04:09,413
Speaker 3: stranglehold of the blob from within, because again you have

957
01:04:09,653 --> 01:04:14,413
Speaker 3: fears and genuine I think genuinely based fears that the

958
01:04:14,493 --> 01:04:16,573
Speaker 3: blow will defeat you if you try to make changes,

959
01:04:18,213 --> 01:04:20,173
Speaker 3: and you to be able to persevere and do that

960
01:04:20,973 --> 01:04:22,013
Speaker 3: you begin with day one.

961
01:04:23,093 --> 01:04:27,013
Speaker 2: There's a lack of political leadership as well. There is

962
01:04:28,013 --> 01:04:31,933
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter what you think of Trump.

963
01:04:32,333 --> 01:04:38,293
Speaker 3: He has it, he has it yet And just so

964
01:04:38,333 --> 01:04:40,653
Speaker 3: I'm not misunderstood on that point, Can I just point

965
01:04:40,733 --> 01:04:44,293
Speaker 3: to your audience in particular, mostly in New Zealand. That

966
01:04:44,533 --> 01:04:46,413
Speaker 3: is what the Labor Party did in the mid nineteen

967
01:04:46,453 --> 01:04:51,413
Speaker 3: eighties with Roger Douglas and David Loner. So it's the

968
01:04:51,453 --> 01:04:53,773
Speaker 3: same thing. You need that on the center right now

969
01:04:53,813 --> 01:04:55,973
Speaker 3: because it's going too far in the other direction. But

970
01:04:56,133 --> 01:04:59,053
Speaker 3: that's what you need, a small group that knows what

971
01:04:59,173 --> 01:05:02,173
Speaker 3: it wants and is prepared to smash through the existing

972
01:05:02,253 --> 01:05:05,533
Speaker 3: barriers in order to get that, because that reflects the

973
01:05:05,653 --> 01:05:06,453
Speaker 3: popular will.

974
01:05:07,453 --> 01:05:09,773
Speaker 2: And you've got that. You've got that in Australia at

975
01:05:09,813 --> 01:05:14,333
Speaker 2: the moment, albeit that in terms of.

976
01:05:14,373 --> 01:05:17,533
Speaker 3: The depth and breadth of people behind her, it's getting there,

977
01:05:17,573 --> 01:05:18,373
Speaker 3: but it's a long bit ago.

978
01:05:18,533 --> 01:05:21,733
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's true. I think it was in the

979
01:05:21,773 --> 01:05:28,413
Speaker 2: Australian on on the weekend that the headline wash and

980
01:05:28,613 --> 01:05:33,373
Speaker 2: the columnist was I remember correctly, who does Sky Australia

981
01:05:33,413 --> 01:05:35,213
Speaker 2: TV at seven o'clock our time?

982
01:05:37,773 --> 01:05:43,133
Speaker 3: Was that beach On?

983
01:05:44,093 --> 01:05:45,773
Speaker 2: Think I've lost that though too.

984
01:05:46,253 --> 01:05:47,093
Speaker 3: In the Australian.

985
01:05:47,333 --> 01:05:51,213
Speaker 2: Yeah, front page or at least the it was front

986
01:05:51,253 --> 01:05:55,333
Speaker 2: page on online oh yes, I know what it was.

987
01:05:56,933 --> 01:06:04,973
Speaker 2: And the and the headline was the headline was politics

988
01:06:05,213 --> 01:06:07,693
Speaker 2: has final I think it was politics has finally caught

989
01:06:07,773 --> 01:06:12,973
Speaker 2: up with with with her rather than Yeah that was

990
01:06:13,053 --> 01:06:13,533
Speaker 2: Tris Kenny.

991
01:06:13,693 --> 01:06:19,093
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he has his arm Swan Sky correct, Yeah, yeah,

992
01:06:19,133 --> 01:06:19,533
Speaker 3: he's right.

993
01:06:19,813 --> 01:06:24,293
Speaker 2: So that that linked me to to Trump because because

994
01:06:24,293 --> 01:06:27,933
Speaker 2: of the he's being criticized about Iran not knowing anything,

995
01:06:27,973 --> 01:06:30,773
Speaker 2: et cetera, not knowing what he's doing, where he's had

996
01:06:31,253 --> 01:06:35,453
Speaker 2: anything about Iran when he was of course the film

997
01:06:35,533 --> 01:06:38,213
Speaker 2: did an interview back in the eighties, was was it

998
01:06:38,333 --> 01:06:38,973
Speaker 2: Rhan Barrett?

999
01:06:39,933 --> 01:06:40,093
Speaker 3: Uh?

1000
01:06:41,653 --> 01:06:45,813
Speaker 2: Where he where he was talking about exactly that He's

1001
01:06:45,893 --> 01:06:48,573
Speaker 2: been consistent on that exactly. That's the That's the point

1002
01:06:48,613 --> 01:06:48,813
Speaker 2: I was.

1003
01:06:49,013 --> 01:06:52,893
Speaker 3: I was, he has he he he. I think what

1004
01:06:53,653 --> 01:06:57,013
Speaker 3: this has brought home, certainly to me in a way

1005
01:06:57,053 --> 01:07:01,253
Speaker 3: that I hadn't appliciate before, is the extent of which,

1006
01:07:01,413 --> 01:07:04,773
Speaker 3: whatever his other faults might be, Trump is genuinely an

1007
01:07:04,773 --> 01:07:07,653
Speaker 3: American pair shot. If he got back to his early

1008
01:07:07,773 --> 01:07:10,733
Speaker 3: statements at that time and he hadn't even thought about politics,

1009
01:07:10,813 --> 01:07:13,573
Speaker 3: or if he had, I'm not aware of it. He

1010
01:07:13,733 --> 01:07:20,453
Speaker 3: felt that sense of national humiliation starting with the US

1011
01:07:20,693 --> 01:07:24,213
Speaker 3: embassy hostage crisis in Tehran after the Islamic Revolution in

1012
01:07:24,293 --> 01:07:27,773
Speaker 3: seventy nine. He has been very consistent saying that we

1013
01:07:27,893 --> 01:07:31,373
Speaker 3: can never permit Iran to acquire nuclear weapons. He's been

1014
01:07:31,493 --> 01:07:34,293
Speaker 3: consistent to saying that they will respect us when we

1015
01:07:34,413 --> 01:07:38,613
Speaker 3: present strength, not to be through weakness, and he's been

1016
01:07:38,693 --> 01:07:43,653
Speaker 3: after that in that sense. Having said that, I think

1017
01:07:43,733 --> 01:07:48,573
Speaker 3: on Iran, he also shows some of the weaknesses that

1018
01:07:48,693 --> 01:07:51,573
Speaker 3: you can see, for example in his Board of Peace idea,

1019
01:07:52,533 --> 01:07:58,133
Speaker 3: the very notion that America can dominate over everyone else

1020
01:07:58,933 --> 01:08:02,493
Speaker 3: and be he, as a president president can do it

1021
01:08:02,653 --> 01:08:06,733
Speaker 3: on his own in not necessarily a violation of the

1022
01:08:06,853 --> 01:08:13,173
Speaker 3: US Constitution, but certainly in disregardless aspects of it. I mean,

1023
01:08:13,613 --> 01:08:16,733
Speaker 3: you know, you go to not Trump but his secretary

1024
01:08:16,813 --> 01:08:20,773
Speaker 3: of Warner Pete Hexit, and you see his statements. The

1025
01:08:20,973 --> 01:08:24,693
Speaker 3: transfer is gloating about the fact that we're not going

1026
01:08:24,733 --> 01:08:27,373
Speaker 3: to be shackled by any rules of engagement and any

1027
01:08:27,453 --> 01:08:31,053
Speaker 3: normative constraints. They are down, we know it, and we're

1028
01:08:31,093 --> 01:08:34,013
Speaker 3: going to beat them even more when they're down. That

1029
01:08:34,373 --> 01:08:37,613
Speaker 3: sort of thing I don't think is quite the way

1030
01:08:37,653 --> 01:08:40,173
Speaker 3: to go in terms of being able to sustain this.

1031
01:08:41,093 --> 01:08:43,573
Speaker 3: And if you look at the Real Clear Politics poll

1032
01:08:43,653 --> 01:08:50,573
Speaker 3: of poll's average, Trump's unfavorability is now crossed minus fourteen.

1033
01:08:51,413 --> 01:08:55,573
Speaker 3: So he's losing his audience within the States, he's losing

1034
01:08:55,653 --> 01:08:58,693
Speaker 3: a lot of his audience globally, even people and countries

1035
01:08:58,693 --> 01:09:01,813
Speaker 3: who have been supportive of him in the past. And

1036
01:09:01,973 --> 01:09:07,893
Speaker 3: I think as a result, he's increasing the risk of

1037
01:09:07,973 --> 01:09:10,253
Speaker 3: a re capture of the House and Senate about the

1038
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:15,373
Speaker 3: Democrats in November. Should that happen, he's finished. He will

1039
01:09:15,413 --> 01:09:19,053
Speaker 3: be subjected to impeachment, but with much greater chances of

1040
01:09:19,493 --> 01:09:23,173
Speaker 3: actual conviction this time around, and he'll be completely hobbled

1041
01:09:23,213 --> 01:09:27,853
Speaker 3: in the last three years of his final administration. So

1042
01:09:28,013 --> 01:09:30,813
Speaker 3: I think there are those dangers to him in that.

1043
01:09:31,293 --> 01:09:33,213
Speaker 3: But yes, I agree with you that he has been

1044
01:09:33,293 --> 01:09:38,413
Speaker 3: consistent on this. But then it's not clear to me

1045
01:09:39,733 --> 01:09:43,893
Speaker 3: that he had thought through the full consequences and options

1046
01:09:44,413 --> 01:09:49,533
Speaker 3: before he launched into this attack. It seems more likely

1047
01:09:49,653 --> 01:09:51,653
Speaker 3: than not. In fact, it seems almost certain that he

1048
01:09:51,733 --> 01:09:53,973
Speaker 3: thought by this time it will be over, that they

1049
01:09:53,973 --> 01:09:58,733
Speaker 3: would have the leadership, would have been decapitated, they may

1050
01:09:58,813 --> 01:10:02,373
Speaker 3: have been a populist popular uprising against the regime, or

1051
01:10:02,373 --> 01:10:07,773
Speaker 3: they would have surrendered rather than continue accepting more severe punishment.

1052
01:10:08,413 --> 01:10:11,693
Speaker 3: The fact that he failed to anticipate the closure of

1053
01:10:11,773 --> 01:10:14,853
Speaker 3: the Strait of Hormos and the Iranian attacks on the

1054
01:10:14,933 --> 01:10:19,093
Speaker 3: shipping and now the energy infrastructure. That shows a lack

1055
01:10:19,133 --> 01:10:23,933
Speaker 3: of forethinking as well. And then you get into other

1056
01:10:24,053 --> 01:10:29,493
Speaker 3: issues that you know, he's given statements of multiple objectives,

1057
01:10:29,573 --> 01:10:32,573
Speaker 3: a lot of the contradictory in terms of goals, in

1058
01:10:32,693 --> 01:10:36,253
Speaker 3: terms of timeline, in terms of progress achieved. And then

1059
01:10:36,333 --> 01:10:39,053
Speaker 3: you go back to what was the June last year

1060
01:10:39,173 --> 01:10:43,253
Speaker 3: or the July, the attacks on Tehran and his insistence

1061
01:10:43,813 --> 01:10:48,773
Speaker 3: that Iran's nuclear program has been completely obliterated, and when

1062
01:10:48,813 --> 01:10:52,653
Speaker 3: anyone questioned it, he directed his ire and fury at

1063
01:10:52,773 --> 01:10:55,493
Speaker 3: those questioning it. For example, that's sorry again in the

1064
01:10:55,613 --> 01:11:00,573
Speaker 3: Washington Post where they quoted Defense Intelligence Agency assessment that

1065
01:11:01,493 --> 01:11:03,813
Speaker 3: you know, they hadn't been quite obliterated, and they quoted

1066
01:11:03,893 --> 01:11:07,573
Speaker 3: intercepts on Iranians officials saying that damage was less than

1067
01:11:07,613 --> 01:11:10,613
Speaker 3: they had and Trump got very angry with them.

1068
01:11:11,133 --> 01:11:15,373
Speaker 2: I don't disagree with you necessarily, Yeah, but when it

1069
01:11:15,453 --> 01:11:17,693
Speaker 2: comes to the Iranians, I don't believe anything they say.

1070
01:11:17,933 --> 01:11:22,373
Speaker 2: Nothing I'm talking about I'm talking about the administration.

1071
01:11:23,533 --> 01:11:25,373
Speaker 3: I don't believe them what they say as well. But

1072
01:11:25,573 --> 01:11:28,413
Speaker 3: then you go back to the system we had. I

1073
01:11:28,493 --> 01:11:30,413
Speaker 3: think one of the few mistakes that Trump made in

1074
01:11:30,453 --> 01:11:33,893
Speaker 3: his first administration, which has doubled down now, is the

1075
01:11:33,973 --> 01:11:37,013
Speaker 3: way he rejected or we called, you know, the JCP

1076
01:11:37,253 --> 01:11:39,853
Speaker 3: or a Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, which was the

1077
01:11:40,453 --> 01:11:44,053
Speaker 3: nuclear deal that Obamas und twenty fifteen. Set aside the

1078
01:11:44,173 --> 01:11:47,093
Speaker 3: money that Obama administration gave to around that's a different issue,

1079
01:11:47,333 --> 01:11:50,253
Speaker 3: but in terms of the deal, over a decade of

1080
01:11:50,373 --> 01:11:55,773
Speaker 3: sanctions before that, Iran's nuclear ambition had progressed at remarkable

1081
01:11:55,853 --> 01:11:59,973
Speaker 3: speed and to remarkable depth. And you can demonstrate that

1082
01:12:00,693 --> 01:12:07,653
Speaker 3: with the IAEA beliefs and documents about the number of

1083
01:12:07,693 --> 01:12:10,573
Speaker 3: centrifuges they had acquired, the extent to which they had

1084
01:12:12,093 --> 01:12:17,733
Speaker 3: advanced stockpiled envested uranium, and the capability that they had

1085
01:12:17,773 --> 01:12:20,573
Speaker 3: in terms of the time required to actually assemble a

1086
01:12:20,653 --> 01:12:23,613
Speaker 3: new bomb. Okay, in twenty fifteen, you have the agreement,

1087
01:12:25,093 --> 01:12:27,453
Speaker 3: and as part of the agreement, they destroyed what was it,

1088
01:12:27,613 --> 01:12:31,973
Speaker 3: ninety eight percent of their existing stockpile of dressed uranium

1089
01:12:32,533 --> 01:12:38,333
Speaker 3: put limits of three point six seven percent investment, which

1090
01:12:38,413 --> 01:12:41,453
Speaker 3: is well below even the minimum concern that you have

1091
01:12:41,533 --> 01:12:44,453
Speaker 3: at five percent, well below the twenty percent that they

1092
01:12:44,493 --> 01:12:47,773
Speaker 3: had been aiming for. Then they completely closed off the

1093
01:12:47,813 --> 01:12:53,693
Speaker 3: plutonium pathway to the bomb. They introduced unprecedented inspection rights

1094
01:12:53,733 --> 01:12:56,973
Speaker 3: for the IAEA, unprecedented in terms of country that had

1095
01:12:57,053 --> 01:13:00,413
Speaker 3: not been defeated on the battlefield, and the IAEA kept

1096
01:13:00,493 --> 01:13:04,653
Speaker 3: certifying that they had honored all these essential obligations. And

1097
01:13:04,853 --> 01:13:10,173
Speaker 3: so you had that twenty eighteen at the time that

1098
01:13:10,373 --> 01:13:14,413
Speaker 3: Trump exists the JCPO, despite the fact that it does

1099
01:13:14,533 --> 01:13:17,813
Speaker 3: multilacturally negotiated in which the US took part, despite the

1100
01:13:17,853 --> 01:13:20,693
Speaker 3: fact that it does unanimously endorsed by the UN Skirity Council,

1101
01:13:21,053 --> 01:13:24,013
Speaker 3: which meant the US had endorsed it as well. And

1102
01:13:24,173 --> 01:13:29,493
Speaker 3: once Trump withdrew, he freed Iran of all these restrictions.

1103
01:13:30,133 --> 01:13:34,653
Speaker 3: And then they went back to enrichment. They brought in

1104
01:13:35,653 --> 01:13:41,413
Speaker 3: more modern centrifugius, newer generations of centrifugus. They began enriching,

1105
01:13:41,493 --> 01:13:43,533
Speaker 3: and we now think that they have what is it

1106
01:13:43,693 --> 01:13:47,773
Speaker 3: four hundred programs or something of uranium enriched to sixty percent,

1107
01:13:48,533 --> 01:13:50,933
Speaker 3: which is very close to the full weapon grade ninety

1108
01:13:50,933 --> 01:13:55,333
Speaker 3: percent enrichment, and it already is capable of making bombs.

1109
01:13:55,493 --> 01:13:57,373
Speaker 3: It just takes a bit longer so they can make

1110
01:13:57,693 --> 01:14:00,253
Speaker 3: and it takes more uranium, so they make fewer bombs.

1111
01:14:00,613 --> 01:14:03,093
Speaker 3: But the assessment was that they're now in a position

1112
01:14:03,173 --> 01:14:05,333
Speaker 3: they could this is before this struck last year in

1113
01:14:05,453 --> 01:14:07,693
Speaker 3: June July, that they are now in the position where

1114
01:14:07,693 --> 01:14:10,093
Speaker 3: they could make the bomb in a very quick period

1115
01:14:10,213 --> 01:14:14,013
Speaker 3: they wanted to. So by pulling out Iran a sorry,

1116
01:14:14,173 --> 01:14:20,413
Speaker 3: by pulling out Trump actually accelerated Iran's reorganization capability efforts

1117
01:14:21,733 --> 01:14:25,253
Speaker 3: as he stayed in. Those restrictions were in place and

1118
01:14:25,373 --> 01:14:28,413
Speaker 3: applied until twenty thirty. So you tell me, would we

1119
01:14:28,493 --> 01:14:30,813
Speaker 3: not have been much better off in terms of what

1120
01:14:30,933 --> 01:14:33,173
Speaker 3: worries you and what war is me, which is a

1121
01:14:33,253 --> 01:14:35,413
Speaker 3: bomb by Iran? Would you not have been much better

1122
01:14:35,453 --> 01:14:37,533
Speaker 3: off if he had stayed in that deal? And if

1123
01:14:37,613 --> 01:14:41,293
Speaker 3: Iran violated, going with full un Secrety Council backing to

1124
01:14:41,493 --> 01:14:41,973
Speaker 3: enforce it.

1125
01:14:44,453 --> 01:14:47,053
Speaker 2: Well, it didn't happen that way, and it's now happening.

1126
01:14:47,173 --> 01:14:51,253
Speaker 2: It didn't another another way. And yeah, we wait, we

1127
01:14:51,373 --> 01:14:56,373
Speaker 2: wait for a result, all right, So I have one

1128
01:14:56,453 --> 01:15:01,893
Speaker 2: last question for you. Sure the when you when you

1129
01:15:01,973 --> 01:15:04,853
Speaker 2: were talking about putting putting together a replacement at the

1130
01:15:05,053 --> 01:15:08,733
Speaker 2: at the UN or or with any thing else for

1131
01:15:08,853 --> 01:15:13,493
Speaker 2: that matter, and the and the emerging, the emerging powers,

1132
01:15:13,653 --> 01:15:19,173
Speaker 2: et cetera. Where would you put Iran? Would you include

1133
01:15:19,213 --> 01:15:22,413
Speaker 2: them in the round table?

1134
01:15:25,533 --> 01:15:28,973
Speaker 3: I'm not the present regime, no out, But this is

1135
01:15:29,013 --> 01:15:29,493
Speaker 3: the this is.

1136
01:15:29,653 --> 01:15:31,773
Speaker 2: This is this is the regime though that's been that's

1137
01:15:31,813 --> 01:15:35,653
Speaker 2: been there for what is it forty seven years or something?

1138
01:15:35,973 --> 01:15:38,733
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm not. I'm not. I'm not including every

1139
01:15:38,773 --> 01:15:40,373
Speaker 3: country in the world at the around table. So on

1140
01:15:40,413 --> 01:15:41,973
Speaker 3: what places would I justify having them?

1141
01:15:41,973 --> 01:15:45,653
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know, because because because of their power, the science.

1142
01:15:45,373 --> 01:15:49,573
Speaker 3: Of that, they're not they're not They're not very powerful.

1143
01:15:49,653 --> 01:15:54,773
Speaker 3: That there's a regional nuisance. They're not globally powerful. It's

1144
01:15:54,853 --> 01:15:58,493
Speaker 3: not a globally systemic country. I mean, all, all right,

1145
01:15:58,613 --> 01:16:00,013
Speaker 3: so powerful country.

1146
01:16:00,213 --> 01:16:03,533
Speaker 2: So the the while this is, while this is all

1147
01:16:03,693 --> 01:16:08,293
Speaker 2: being formulated, they they show that they have a tommy

1148
01:16:08,413 --> 01:16:12,973
Speaker 2: weaponry that is as good as anybody's got, or at

1149
01:16:13,053 --> 01:16:16,573
Speaker 2: least you know, in the same category anyway, enough to

1150
01:16:16,613 --> 01:16:21,013
Speaker 2: do enough damage and buy them buy them a future.

1151
01:16:21,973 --> 01:16:23,653
Speaker 2: Would you include them or not?

1152
01:16:24,133 --> 01:16:28,853
Speaker 3: Then no, No, I open based it on atomic I

1153
01:16:28,853 --> 01:16:32,213
Speaker 3: would include from the Middle East, I would consider including

1154
01:16:32,253 --> 01:16:36,733
Speaker 3: Soudi Arabia thirty and Egypt.

1155
01:16:38,613 --> 01:16:40,573
Speaker 2: Nobody talks about Egypt, not anymore, do they?

1156
01:16:41,013 --> 01:16:41,053
Speaker 1: No?

1157
01:16:41,733 --> 01:16:43,893
Speaker 3: No? And again, if you want to go beyond the

1158
01:16:43,893 --> 01:16:46,413
Speaker 3: Middle East, what from the Islamic world? I would include Nigeria.

1159
01:16:46,493 --> 01:16:49,653
Speaker 3: In Africa, I would include South Africa.

1160
01:16:49,733 --> 01:16:53,493
Speaker 2: So yeah, all right, now, the date that this is

1161
01:16:53,573 --> 01:16:56,253
Speaker 2: going to make a public appearance.

1162
01:16:56,573 --> 01:17:01,373
Speaker 3: Thirteenth April, available thirteenth April US time from Amazon.

1163
01:17:02,333 --> 01:17:09,453
Speaker 2: And shall we enkindle and paperback? I'm sorry, in ebook,

1164
01:17:09,933 --> 01:17:14,693
Speaker 2: kindle and paperback in that case, I hope it's a

1165
01:17:14,733 --> 01:17:18,973
Speaker 2: big seller. And on that note, that note, we'd better

1166
01:17:19,373 --> 01:17:20,733
Speaker 2: we'd better go our separate ways.

1167
01:17:23,973 --> 01:17:27,093
Speaker 3: Well, good luck, And as I said, once it's out,

1168
01:17:27,173 --> 01:17:29,653
Speaker 3: you can talk to David and get the medical perspective

1169
01:17:29,693 --> 01:17:30,253
Speaker 3: on it as well.

1170
01:17:30,493 --> 01:17:32,413
Speaker 2: Yes, but there's much more that I'd like to talk

1171
01:17:32,413 --> 01:17:37,613
Speaker 2: to you about along the way too. Sure, So okay, Yes,

1172
01:17:37,893 --> 01:17:42,133
Speaker 2: it's been a pleasure and always is. And I release

1173
01:17:42,213 --> 01:17:44,413
Speaker 2: you for some considerable time.

1174
01:17:45,333 --> 01:17:48,773
Speaker 3: Thank you, and I'll let you get back to thinking

1175
01:17:48,853 --> 01:17:49,773
Speaker 3: what your wife wanted.

1176
01:17:55,373 --> 01:18:16,653
Speaker 2: All right, thanks, thank you. Rummis. I went to the

1177
01:18:16,693 --> 01:18:19,213
Speaker 2: mail room for podcast number two hundred and thirty one,

1178
01:18:19,613 --> 01:18:23,813
Speaker 2: the date being the twenty fifth of March twenty twenty six.

1179
01:18:23,973 --> 01:18:26,333
Speaker 2: I thought i'd throw that in, why not so that

1180
01:18:26,413 --> 01:18:29,253
Speaker 2: people know when it was done. You see, and things

1181
01:18:29,373 --> 01:18:32,453
Speaker 2: change between now and when people might hear something, and

1182
01:18:32,533 --> 01:18:34,533
Speaker 2: there's a bit of that going on this weekend now.

1183
01:18:34,573 --> 01:18:39,693
Speaker 2: I asked for well, I suggested that your commentary on

1184
01:18:39,973 --> 01:18:43,373
Speaker 2: the interview with Patrick Basham, no, let's call it the

1185
01:18:43,453 --> 01:18:47,213
Speaker 2: discussion with Patrick Basham would be interesting and so it

1186
01:18:47,293 --> 01:18:50,173
Speaker 2: has proved to be. Missus producer, Good morning Layton.

1187
01:18:50,253 --> 01:18:51,653
Speaker 3: Hi, how are you very well?

1188
01:18:51,733 --> 01:18:54,173
Speaker 5: Thank you go for it, Chris says, I have just

1189
01:18:54,293 --> 01:18:57,733
Speaker 5: listened to your interview with Patrick Bashaman podcast three twenty.

1190
01:18:58,333 --> 01:19:00,813
Speaker 5: I agree people in Iran are opposed to the regime

1191
01:19:00,973 --> 01:19:03,853
Speaker 5: because of the state of the economy. However, I think

1192
01:19:03,893 --> 01:19:06,773
Speaker 5: it is only part of the reason, particularly for women

1193
01:19:07,133 --> 01:19:09,053
Speaker 5: who want to be able to chew what they wear

1194
01:19:09,173 --> 01:19:13,293
Speaker 5: and how to wear it. Also, people, particularly the young,

1195
01:19:13,493 --> 01:19:16,093
Speaker 5: are concerned about freedom. They want to be able to

1196
01:19:16,253 --> 01:19:19,693
Speaker 5: access the Internet when they like without fearing it will

1197
01:19:19,733 --> 01:19:22,853
Speaker 5: be closed down at the women of the authorities. They

1198
01:19:22,933 --> 01:19:25,413
Speaker 5: also want to be able to criticize the regime without

1199
01:19:25,533 --> 01:19:32,253
Speaker 5: fear of negative consequences, such as imprisonment, beatings, torture and death.

1200
01:19:32,693 --> 01:19:35,413
Speaker 2: Sort of summarizes it, doesn't it. In other words, they

1201
01:19:35,453 --> 01:19:39,373
Speaker 2: want freedom like we think we have and we do

1202
01:19:39,653 --> 01:19:45,293
Speaker 2: by comparison. So from Gary, after listening to the latest episode,

1203
01:19:45,493 --> 01:19:50,373
Speaker 2: can I conclude that Patrick Masham believes the US invading

1204
01:19:50,493 --> 01:19:53,413
Speaker 2: Iran would be a mistake and that the US or

1205
01:19:53,453 --> 01:19:56,653
Speaker 2: should I say, the Republicans would lose the war and

1206
01:19:57,013 --> 01:20:02,133
Speaker 2: the midterm election. He seems to be ignoring one major

1207
01:20:02,253 --> 01:20:06,573
Speaker 2: factor which you already brought up. Whether Iran may or

1208
01:20:06,653 --> 01:20:10,853
Speaker 2: already does have an nuclear missile. If they do, Israel

1209
01:20:10,933 --> 01:20:14,173
Speaker 2: would be wiped out and millions would die. How did

1210
01:20:14,213 --> 01:20:17,613
Speaker 2: they justify that point? And if the US doesn't act now,

1211
01:20:17,973 --> 01:20:21,013
Speaker 2: how would they respond if Iran launches a strike at

1212
01:20:21,053 --> 01:20:25,453
Speaker 2: the time, specifically at that time. One important thing after

1213
01:20:25,533 --> 01:20:28,973
Speaker 2: your interview is that over the weekend Iran fired two

1214
01:20:29,333 --> 01:20:34,053
Speaker 2: mid range missiles at Diego Garcia military base. I wonder

1215
01:20:34,133 --> 01:20:36,773
Speaker 2: if his view will change because of that. I love

1216
01:20:36,853 --> 01:20:40,093
Speaker 2: to listen to your pridecast. Keep up the good work, regards, Gary.

1217
01:20:41,173 --> 01:20:43,493
Speaker 2: Let me just say this, Patrick and I have known

1218
01:20:43,493 --> 01:20:49,453
Speaker 2: each other on thirteen years, since twenty thirteen, and we

1219
01:20:49,573 --> 01:20:54,133
Speaker 2: are friends and we remain friends and some people who

1220
01:20:54,573 --> 01:20:57,693
Speaker 2: seem to think that World War III had broken out

1221
01:20:57,733 --> 01:21:01,373
Speaker 2: on the podcast last week. No it hadn't. And our

1222
01:21:01,893 --> 01:21:05,533
Speaker 2: conversation after we stopped recording was the best.

1223
01:21:06,573 --> 01:21:09,013
Speaker 5: Friends should be able to disagree all times.

1224
01:21:09,093 --> 01:21:09,973
Speaker 2: This is my thought.

1225
01:21:11,213 --> 01:21:15,293
Speaker 5: Leighton Shane says, really enjoyed the conversation you had with Patrick.

1226
01:21:15,733 --> 01:21:17,533
Speaker 5: He made sense of a lot of things if you

1227
01:21:17,653 --> 01:21:20,893
Speaker 5: look at it from the conservative versus liberal perspective and

1228
01:21:21,053 --> 01:21:25,093
Speaker 5: his interpretation of President Trump's support base. I have been

1229
01:21:25,173 --> 01:21:29,933
Speaker 5: following Barbara Boyd and Susan Kakinder from Promethean Action, who

1230
01:21:30,013 --> 01:21:33,453
Speaker 5: look at the Iran situation from another angle. Their view

1231
01:21:33,613 --> 01:21:37,533
Speaker 5: indicates that the Iran war is hidden in underlying battle

1232
01:21:37,693 --> 01:21:41,093
Speaker 5: where the actual target is the UK or in particular

1233
01:21:41,253 --> 01:21:45,453
Speaker 5: London and their control over the trade routes which affects

1234
01:21:45,533 --> 01:21:50,253
Speaker 5: the global economy, especially where oil is concerned. They indicate

1235
01:21:50,413 --> 01:21:53,213
Speaker 5: that President Trump is quietly knocking over all the chess

1236
01:21:53,293 --> 01:21:58,413
Speaker 5: pieces to stop London's decades of historical and deliberate influence

1237
01:21:58,533 --> 01:22:02,813
Speaker 5: of chaos in the Arab nations, in particular Iran, and

1238
01:22:03,213 --> 01:22:05,333
Speaker 5: Shane goes on to say, I'd love to hear your

1239
01:22:05,413 --> 01:22:09,053
Speaker 5: opinion on this or maybe even talk to them, and

1240
01:22:09,293 --> 01:22:11,653
Speaker 5: then he says, I listened to all your podcasts and

1241
01:22:11,813 --> 01:22:15,173
Speaker 5: just love the honesty and sincere on Beyonce of your show.

1242
01:22:16,053 --> 01:22:20,333
Speaker 2: Very nice. Indeed, I only came across the Promethean action

1243
01:22:21,253 --> 01:22:24,653
Speaker 2: recently by accident, actually, and I've watched a little bit

1244
01:22:24,693 --> 01:22:27,773
Speaker 2: of it, and I haven't formed an opinion, to be honest,

1245
01:22:27,853 --> 01:22:29,773
Speaker 2: but I'm going to go back and have a look

1246
01:22:29,813 --> 01:22:33,013
Speaker 2: at what you're suggesting. So from James, we attach a

1247
01:22:33,093 --> 01:22:39,453
Speaker 2: podcast of a conversation between Chamin Nawi, an Iranian Canadian

1248
01:22:39,533 --> 01:22:44,173
Speaker 2: journalist with a master's degree in international relations from Columbia University,

1249
01:22:44,373 --> 01:22:50,053
Speaker 2: and Victor Gao, a Chinese lawyer, an international relations expert,

1250
01:22:50,413 --> 01:22:55,413
Speaker 2: and a professor at su Chow University. We urge you

1251
01:22:55,533 --> 01:22:58,093
Speaker 2: to listen to it as it could well alter your

1252
01:22:58,173 --> 01:23:01,773
Speaker 2: perspective on Iran away from the US generated propaganda which

1253
01:23:01,893 --> 01:23:06,253
Speaker 2: permeates Western media. Anyone who thinks about the unfortunate turn

1254
01:23:06,293 --> 01:23:08,613
Speaker 2: of events in the Middle East would realize as the

1255
01:23:08,733 --> 01:23:13,293
Speaker 2: possibility of Israel using a nuclear weapon as their desperation grows.

1256
01:23:13,813 --> 01:23:18,053
Speaker 2: Victor Gow's comments on this are enlightening. We continue to

1257
01:23:18,173 --> 01:23:21,133
Speaker 2: enjoy your weekly podcast, Beamed all the way to Columbia.

1258
01:23:21,653 --> 01:23:23,573
Speaker 2: With all the best wishes to you and missus Producer

1259
01:23:23,853 --> 01:23:28,813
Speaker 2: and related congratulations on your award. Jim, I can only

1260
01:23:28,893 --> 01:23:33,733
Speaker 2: say thank you. There are as I've just gone through. Well,

1261
01:23:33,773 --> 01:23:37,053
Speaker 2: as I've just said a moment ago, there is advice

1262
01:23:37,173 --> 01:23:39,373
Speaker 2: coming my way about what I should do and how

1263
01:23:39,453 --> 01:23:42,333
Speaker 2: I should think, and where I'm wrong, etc. With the

1264
01:23:42,413 --> 01:23:45,853
Speaker 2: greatest of respect. I appreciate being passed on things that

1265
01:23:46,853 --> 01:23:50,773
Speaker 2: are useful or that you think are useful. But if

1266
01:23:50,813 --> 01:23:52,933
Speaker 2: I don't think so, then you have to forgive me

1267
01:23:53,093 --> 01:23:59,293
Speaker 2: for not being, shall we say, a productive recipient.

1268
01:24:00,453 --> 01:24:05,053
Speaker 5: Leydon Evan says, in relation to Patrick Basham, brilliant interview,

1269
01:24:05,213 --> 01:24:08,693
Speaker 5: balanced views, pretty honest accounts from him, which some may

1270
01:24:08,773 --> 01:24:12,693
Speaker 5: find difficult to digest. However, digest we must if we

1271
01:24:12,773 --> 01:24:16,213
Speaker 5: wish to be open to varied opinions. I had thought

1272
01:24:16,293 --> 01:24:18,453
Speaker 5: myself the move to assault around may have been a

1273
01:24:18,533 --> 01:24:21,733
Speaker 5: gamble regarding their ability to come back with vengeance.

1274
01:24:23,013 --> 01:24:27,093
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, well done. I agree with you, Evan, Thank you,

1275
01:24:27,373 --> 01:24:31,293
Speaker 2: Thank you Evan, much appreciated. The interesting thing is that

1276
01:24:32,453 --> 01:24:34,413
Speaker 2: when you think you have an opinion, well you do

1277
01:24:34,573 --> 01:24:37,013
Speaker 2: have an opinion, but you might doubt it a little

1278
01:24:37,053 --> 01:24:41,933
Speaker 2: bit or you might reconsider it when you get a

1279
01:24:42,013 --> 01:24:44,413
Speaker 2: bit more of an opinion from somewhere else. And so

1280
01:24:44,733 --> 01:24:46,813
Speaker 2: the only thing you can do, really is to pursue

1281
01:24:47,493 --> 01:24:51,893
Speaker 2: the doubt that you might now have and analyze it

1282
01:24:51,973 --> 01:24:53,253
Speaker 2: and see where you come out.

1283
01:24:53,853 --> 01:24:54,093
Speaker 1: Isn't it?

1284
01:24:54,293 --> 01:24:55,373
Speaker 5: Isn't it called being human?

1285
01:24:55,853 --> 01:25:00,213
Speaker 2: The problem is, I don't know. The problem is that

1286
01:25:00,333 --> 01:25:03,053
Speaker 2: once you go down that trail, you get led from

1287
01:25:03,093 --> 01:25:05,373
Speaker 2: one to the other, to another to another, and in

1288
01:25:05,453 --> 01:25:07,853
Speaker 2: the end you end up as confused as you as

1289
01:25:07,893 --> 01:25:10,253
Speaker 2: you might have been at the beginning, or even more so. Well,

1290
01:25:10,253 --> 01:25:12,613
Speaker 2: there's the danger of that. It can drive your nuts,

1291
01:25:13,493 --> 01:25:17,173
Speaker 2: especially in circumstances like these. So I always enjoy the

1292
01:25:17,213 --> 01:25:21,013
Speaker 2: Patrick Basham podcasts, although this latest one was a little

1293
01:25:21,093 --> 01:25:24,533
Speaker 2: more difficult to listen to than the previous one. This

1294
01:25:24,773 --> 01:25:27,933
Speaker 2: may have been due to my bias against Iran and

1295
01:25:28,093 --> 01:25:31,813
Speaker 2: my bias for Donald Trump. Is there a difference between

1296
01:25:31,933 --> 01:25:36,373
Speaker 2: bias and belief? You can argue that amongst yourself. In

1297
01:25:36,493 --> 01:25:39,933
Speaker 2: my opinion, Trump was elected as an anti politician because

1298
01:25:39,973 --> 01:25:44,253
Speaker 2: the American public was so disillusioned by American politics, So

1299
01:25:44,493 --> 01:25:47,253
Speaker 2: why then are people surprised that he doesn't act like

1300
01:25:47,333 --> 01:25:51,133
Speaker 2: a politician? Goes off script and speaks to his opinion

1301
01:25:51,373 --> 01:25:55,093
Speaker 2: or his opinion at the same time he's speaking. However,

1302
01:25:55,213 --> 01:25:58,533
Speaker 2: I think the actions he's taken are far more logical

1303
01:25:58,653 --> 01:26:02,493
Speaker 2: than his oratory. Trump is the only president who would

1304
01:26:02,493 --> 01:26:06,013
Speaker 2: have attacked Iran at this time because he's not concerned

1305
01:26:06,013 --> 01:26:09,373
Speaker 2: about personal or political attacks on him. That may make

1306
01:26:09,453 --> 01:26:12,853
Speaker 2: him more dangerous than most politicians, but it also makes

1307
01:26:12,933 --> 01:26:16,733
Speaker 2: him more decisive. This war will not last ten years

1308
01:26:16,973 --> 01:26:19,973
Speaker 2: or even two years, and this is because the fact

1309
01:26:20,173 --> 01:26:23,213
Speaker 2: that he's not worried about any political fallout. If he

1310
01:26:23,293 --> 01:26:26,933
Speaker 2: backs down, he'll just say that the victory was in

1311
01:26:27,053 --> 01:26:31,013
Speaker 2: slowing down Iran's nuclear ambitions, and he'll probably be right.

1312
01:26:31,493 --> 01:26:34,493
Speaker 2: If nothing else, he sent the Iranians a message that

1313
01:26:34,613 --> 01:26:38,013
Speaker 2: their nuclear ambitions won't be tolerated, and for that we

1314
01:26:38,133 --> 01:26:41,893
Speaker 2: owe him thank you. The Iranian public may not have

1315
01:26:42,013 --> 01:26:46,333
Speaker 2: risen up in arms to overthrow their government, but Trump

1316
01:26:46,453 --> 01:26:50,253
Speaker 2: gave them the opportunity to do so. Nobody else has

1317
01:26:50,333 --> 01:26:53,933
Speaker 2: done that. As an aside, I recently had a decent

1318
01:26:54,053 --> 01:26:59,533
Speaker 2: political conversation with an American couple recently retired who apologized

1319
01:26:59,573 --> 01:27:02,853
Speaker 2: to me that America voted for Trump. My reply was that,

1320
01:27:03,213 --> 01:27:06,213
Speaker 2: having had a dern as our prime minister. Given the

1321
01:27:06,293 --> 01:27:11,173
Speaker 2: options America had at the last election, that I would

1322
01:27:11,213 --> 01:27:13,493
Speaker 2: have voted for Trump. When the wife went to the bar,

1323
01:27:14,853 --> 01:27:17,773
Speaker 2: the husband said quietly to me, I've always been a Democrat,

1324
01:27:18,013 --> 01:27:20,533
Speaker 2: and I've always voted, but I didn't cast a vote

1325
01:27:20,613 --> 01:27:23,693
Speaker 2: last time because I could not bring myself to vote

1326
01:27:23,733 --> 01:27:28,693
Speaker 2: for Karmera. Please don't tell my wife. We clinked glasses

1327
01:27:29,493 --> 01:27:33,253
Speaker 2: and had a silent toast. Now back to the Iranian

1328
01:27:33,293 --> 01:27:37,093
Speaker 2: public who did not rise up in arms. There's another

1329
01:27:37,133 --> 01:27:39,813
Speaker 2: aspect to that, and I'll get onto that with the

1330
01:27:40,013 --> 01:27:41,773
Speaker 2: I'll get onto that with the next letter.

1331
01:27:42,533 --> 01:27:45,213
Speaker 5: Layden Chris says, I still remember where I was when

1332
01:27:45,293 --> 01:27:49,893
Speaker 5: your morning radio program had a Palestinian caller explain why

1333
01:27:49,933 --> 01:27:53,333
Speaker 5: there were so many Palestinians still in refugee camps. He

1334
01:27:53,453 --> 01:27:55,893
Speaker 5: explained that if they were freed, there would be no

1335
01:27:56,053 --> 01:27:59,693
Speaker 5: reason to fight and no reason to hate Israel. For

1336
01:27:59,893 --> 01:28:04,973
Speaker 5: the record, Palestinians were offered independence and statehood nine times,

1337
01:28:05,093 --> 01:28:09,773
Speaker 5: but they rejected it every time. The years Palestinians rejected

1338
01:28:09,813 --> 01:28:13,933
Speaker 5: this offer where nineteen forty seven, forty nine, sixty seven,

1339
01:28:14,053 --> 01:28:18,133
Speaker 5: seventy eight, two thousand, two thousand and one, two thousand,

1340
01:28:18,173 --> 01:28:21,973
Speaker 5: and eight, two thousand and fourteen, and two thousand and nineteen.

1341
01:28:22,893 --> 01:28:26,173
Speaker 5: The other problem of Palestinian statehood is that it would

1342
01:28:26,293 --> 01:28:29,973
Speaker 5: require acknowledging Israel as a country, which is something that

1343
01:28:30,093 --> 01:28:32,253
Speaker 5: Palestinians are unwilling to do.

1344
01:28:33,213 --> 01:28:37,773
Speaker 2: That's from Chris. Chris, very good, thank you. And finally,

1345
01:28:39,613 --> 01:28:42,613
Speaker 2: I won't even name the author of this. I just

1346
01:28:42,693 --> 01:28:46,013
Speaker 2: had to respond to the above and how Basham demolished

1347
01:28:46,013 --> 01:28:50,213
Speaker 2: your beliefs on Trump's invasion in Braggan's by choice. On Iran,

1348
01:28:51,293 --> 01:28:55,173
Speaker 2: Basham was one hundred percent correct on his honest assessment

1349
01:28:55,653 --> 01:28:58,813
Speaker 2: and showed you, well, this is full of the literary

1350
01:28:58,893 --> 01:29:02,973
Speaker 2: mistakes and showed you complete ignorance on the matter. Whatever

1351
01:29:03,053 --> 01:29:07,613
Speaker 2: one thinks about the regime in Iran, any treat meaning

1352
01:29:07,693 --> 01:29:12,453
Speaker 2: any threat, any threat they may pose with any nuclear

1353
01:29:12,533 --> 01:29:17,133
Speaker 2: program doesn't stack up. If you did your homework, no know,

1354
01:29:17,693 --> 01:29:20,093
Speaker 2: let me do this the way it's written. If you

1355
01:29:20,253 --> 01:29:24,213
Speaker 2: did your homework, you'd realize that successive religious leaders of

1356
01:29:24,333 --> 01:29:31,413
Speaker 2: Iran were completely against nuclear program for military purposes. I'll

1357
01:29:31,453 --> 01:29:35,733
Speaker 2: go no further because it's not warranted. Anybody who knows

1358
01:29:35,773 --> 01:29:42,133
Speaker 2: anything knows that lying in Islam is legitimate in certain circumstances,

1359
01:29:42,453 --> 01:29:45,973
Speaker 2: three of them in the main, one of which involves war,

1360
01:29:46,533 --> 01:29:49,773
Speaker 2: perfectly legitimate to lie. So you want to tell me

1361
01:29:49,933 --> 01:29:54,293
Speaker 2: that you believe these religious leaders that they are against

1362
01:29:54,533 --> 01:29:59,293
Speaker 2: nuclear program for military purposes. If you believe that, you

1363
01:29:59,413 --> 01:30:04,493
Speaker 2: need attention. But thank you for your suggestions. As a producer,

1364
01:30:04,573 --> 01:30:18,293
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, lasam. See you next week. Now

1365
01:30:18,333 --> 01:30:20,293
Speaker 2: before we go, I'll leave you with this because it

1366
01:30:20,413 --> 01:30:25,533
Speaker 2: amuses me nothing more, nothing less. As the Iran war rages,

1367
01:30:26,053 --> 01:30:29,093
Speaker 2: they ran has rolled out a new ten million reeal

1368
01:30:29,773 --> 01:30:35,813
Speaker 2: real I think it is real banknote. Ten million real banknote,

1369
01:30:36,493 --> 01:30:41,773
Speaker 2: its highest evor denomination, as authorities seek to manage soaring

1370
01:30:41,893 --> 01:30:46,213
Speaker 2: inflation and meet demand for hard cash, but mostly to

1371
01:30:46,573 --> 01:30:50,933
Speaker 2: manage soaring inflation, apparently similar to how Venezuela would add

1372
01:30:50,973 --> 01:30:53,453
Speaker 2: a new zero to its currency every week in the

1373
01:30:53,533 --> 01:30:59,613
Speaker 2: late days of the Maduro regime before everyone simply gave up. Banks,

1374
01:30:59,653 --> 01:31:02,133
Speaker 2: which have been targeted on at least one occasion by

1375
01:31:02,173 --> 01:31:08,693
Speaker 2: Western strikes, began distributing this new note this week. It's

1376
01:31:08,853 --> 01:31:15,293
Speaker 2: currently worth about seven US dodders. As Iranians waited in

1377
01:31:15,773 --> 01:31:19,413
Speaker 2: long lines at cash points to withdraw currency over fears

1378
01:31:19,493 --> 01:31:24,253
Speaker 2: of electronic systems could fail, many quickly ran out. Now

1379
01:31:24,333 --> 01:31:27,013
Speaker 2: it's a new pink bank note, which features a vignette

1380
01:31:27,133 --> 01:31:32,093
Speaker 2: of the ninth century Jame mosque of well I've got

1381
01:31:32,173 --> 01:31:37,053
Speaker 2: to struggle here, yazard yazzd, while the back displays an

1382
01:31:37,093 --> 01:31:39,173
Speaker 2: image of the two and a half thousand year old

1383
01:31:39,373 --> 01:31:43,813
Speaker 2: Bam Citadel Bam. It is now the highest denomination in circulation,

1384
01:31:44,453 --> 01:31:50,373
Speaker 2: overtaking the five real note. Sorry, that's the five million

1385
01:31:50,613 --> 01:31:54,573
Speaker 2: real note introduced in early February, which at this rate

1386
01:31:54,773 --> 01:31:57,893
Speaker 2: will be equal to roughly one US dollar in a

1387
01:31:57,973 --> 01:32:01,213
Speaker 2: few weeks. Iran's Central Bank said the bill was introduced

1388
01:32:01,253 --> 01:32:05,333
Speaker 2: to ensure public access to cash, adding that electronic systems,

1389
01:32:05,413 --> 01:32:09,573
Speaker 2: including debit cards, mobile and internet banking would continue to

1390
01:32:09,693 --> 01:32:15,173
Speaker 2: serve as the main platform or platforms or financial transactions,

1391
01:32:15,853 --> 01:32:21,293
Speaker 2: at least until the Mossad cripples all domestic electronic payments. Yet,

1392
01:32:21,373 --> 01:32:24,813
Speaker 2: despite government's assurances of a continuousupply of cash after the

1393
01:32:24,893 --> 01:32:29,173
Speaker 2: war broke out, banks are providing limited currency to clients

1394
01:32:29,253 --> 01:32:33,253
Speaker 2: seeking to withdraw funds. Quoting a couple of people, one

1395
01:32:33,333 --> 01:32:35,973
Speaker 2: who said, I waited my turn for an hour and

1396
01:32:36,093 --> 01:32:38,973
Speaker 2: the clerk said he could only give me ten million rials.

1397
01:32:40,893 --> 01:32:42,613
Speaker 2: But when I made a fuss telling him I had

1398
01:32:42,693 --> 01:32:45,853
Speaker 2: no money and needed cash. I got thirteen million instead.

1399
01:32:47,573 --> 01:32:49,653
Speaker 2: She was an eighty year old, by the way, resident

1400
01:32:49,733 --> 01:32:52,653
Speaker 2: of Teyran. Now that will take us out the podcast

1401
01:32:52,853 --> 01:32:56,533
Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty one. We shall return clearly rapidly

1402
01:32:56,653 --> 01:33:00,013
Speaker 2: with three twenty two, and in the meantime, as always,

1403
01:33:00,813 --> 01:33:03,573
Speaker 2: if you would like to write to us Layton at

1404
01:33:03,653 --> 01:33:07,813
Speaker 2: NEWSTALKSIB dot co dot nz, LIGHTO and Latt Newstalks AB

1405
01:33:07,893 --> 01:33:10,653
Speaker 2: dot cod NSID or Carolyn with A Y C A

1406
01:33:10,813 --> 01:33:13,893
Speaker 2: R O L y N at Newstalk SEDB dot co

1407
01:33:14,293 --> 01:33:18,133
Speaker 2: dot nz. And again I say, as always, thank you

1408
01:33:18,253 --> 01:33:20,013
Speaker 2: for listening and we'll talk soon.

1409
01:33:27,933 --> 01:33:30,973
Speaker 3: Thank you for more from News Talk sed B.

1410
01:33:31,253 --> 01:33:34,493
Speaker 1: Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows

1411
01:33:34,533 --> 01:33:37,853
Speaker 1: with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio