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Speaker 1: On the Front Foot with Brian Waddell and Jeremy Coney
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Speaker 2: Hello back with on the Front Foot. It's a bit
Speaker 2: rich Lord Botham criticizing dropped England captain Ben Stokes for
Speaker 2: breaking its team kofy. So he doesn't see how to
Speaker 2: justify what happened. Yeah, perhaps you could look back in
Speaker 2: history for old Ian Botham. It's this series with England
Speaker 2: squared with one to play. That's exciting and the White
Speaker 2: Ferns well, their hopes are alive. Just I've got Scotland
Speaker 2: at England to play. What is it going to lead
Speaker 2: to that? A little bit later on the front foot.
Speaker 2: But a test match, a test series, had a Test game,
Speaker 2: Jeremy Coney. That was quality cricket from the new Zilders.
Speaker 2: They fought back well and outplayed England, didn't they?
Speaker 4: Yes, simply more reliable wads, very solid through the match.
Speaker 4: I was a wee bit disappointed with the way they
Speaker 4: got out in the first inning some of the players,
Speaker 4: but they got partnerships through and I think the key
Speaker 4: part in the match almost was that second morning when
Speaker 4: England came out again and used a short ball and
Speaker 4: New Zealand through Phillips who had had it was a
Speaker 4: terrific innings from Phillips that whole session at the end
Speaker 4: of first day. It was quite commanding, you know, watching him.
Speaker 4: Don't often see a modern player trying not to hit
Speaker 4: the ball, and yet he was able to get underneath
Speaker 4: the ball in various ways of archer. That cost England
Speaker 4: because then the physiotherapist the next morning said Archie, you
Speaker 4: can't bowl after those eight overs of short pitched bowling.
Speaker 4: So we had physios calling the bowling changes and then
Speaker 4: from them to go on with Jamison. I mean that
Speaker 4: was fabulous and so it was three ninety one. A
Speaker 4: bit of gst in there perhaps, but New Zealand had
Speaker 4: the two top innings was in the match. New Zealand
Speaker 4: got the two hundreds in the match and New Zealand
Speaker 4: had Henry in.
Speaker 5: The match and that was enoughty to secure the win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the interesting point that you talk about. Henry
Speaker 2: was man of the match and eleven wickets deserve it.
Speaker 2: That's a great performance. Our case had to be made
Speaker 2: for Phillips because I thought that was a gutsy display
Speaker 2: archers bowling, to my mind in cricket terms, was evil.
Speaker 2: That was the firiest spell I've seen for some time
Speaker 2: from a quickie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, eight overs of it too. He kept on going
Speaker 4: and he was very accurate, very accurate, and yet underneath
Speaker 4: Nichols went and kept on too. He was not going
Speaker 4: to play a pull shot or a hook shot. So
Speaker 4: it was a great encounter between those two and Phillips
Speaker 4: won it, and so he was able to carry on
Speaker 4: a very important innings for him and for the side,
Speaker 4: and to be able to get that, you know, three
Speaker 4: ninety just pushed it beyond England really and New Zealand
Speaker 4: cleverly bowled O'Rourke and Jamison mainly from the Pavilion end.
Speaker 4: They thought there was more bounce from that end, and
Speaker 4: then they bowled a skiddier bowl as Smith and Henry
Speaker 4: from the Vauxhall end and that proved I think the
Speaker 4: very good decision from Latham or whoever made it.
Speaker 2: It was very effective that period of play when Archer
Speaker 2: was at his peak and Phillips was batting. The way
Speaker 2: was to me is the is the story of Test
Speaker 2: cricket that puts Test cricket way beyond any other form
Speaker 2: of the game, doesn't it to be able to watch
Speaker 2: that confrontation skills of players being used, And as you say,
Speaker 2: Phillips won because Archie didn't get.
Speaker 4: A wicket right and he showed no little skill in
Speaker 4: going under some of those deliveries. All Right, it might
Speaker 4: have looked a bit awkward, and some people even had
Speaker 4: a bit of a giggle on the occasion, but boy,
Speaker 4: you're right it was. It was cricket for real, proper cricket.
Speaker 4: Two guys not giving in, and that's those are the
Speaker 4: sort of encounters you like to see, and it's the
Speaker 4: only format that you will see that sort of thing happening.
Speaker 2: And you know, you've got to also give some credit to,
Speaker 2: in fact, a lot of credit to Henry Nichols. I'm
Speaker 2: Kane Williamson's replacement. Hey oh, it's like the days of
Speaker 2: Willie Watson coming in as replacement for Richard Hadley. There's
Speaker 2: no replacement for players of that quality. But yet Nichols
Speaker 2: did everything you wanted him to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he got a twenty odd in the first innings.
Speaker 4: Took his time, but there were little signs that he
Speaker 4: was starting to back himself and gain some confidence, I
Speaker 4: think from that first and he batted for quite a
Speaker 4: number of balls before he was bold. And then in
Speaker 4: that second innings he hung in there and as England
Speaker 4: set those very short set fields, some strange fields sets
Speaker 4: short shortcover, short mid off, short mid on short mid
Speaker 4: wicket and he just punched the ball through. He and
Speaker 4: the were a partnership between Nichols and Ravendra that next
Speaker 4: day was able to push New Zealand. Ravendra playing the big,
Speaker 4: classical sort of strokes that were eye catching, but Nichols too,
Speaker 4: don't forget. Even against the spinner, Vessel was able to
Speaker 4: knock him over the top a few times and he
Speaker 4: just punched the ball or steered the ball and was
Speaker 4: getting boundaries because those fielders were in quite close. So
Speaker 4: a really good innings from him. You couldn't ask for
Speaker 4: more from Henry Nichols in that match. As I say,
Speaker 4: the two hundreds came for New Zealand, didn't they They mattered?
Speaker 2: Ye, most definitely, and you look back at a technical awareness,
Speaker 2: I think England were technically outplayed. McCallum tried to justify
Speaker 2: the technics that they undertook, but he was unconvincing. They
Speaker 2: were outplayed and the technical side of things took took
Speaker 2: over from New Zealand.
Speaker 5: Well New Zealand once they got the runs.
Speaker 4: Of course, that put a lot of pressure on England
Speaker 4: in their last innings. And you know O'Rourke hasn't found
Speaker 4: it quite so easy heres. The pitchers haven't suited him.
Speaker 4: In the first first match at Lord's you had to
Speaker 4: bring the stumps into play with lbw's in bold, so
Speaker 4: his length didn't really that didn't suit O'Rourke. And in
Speaker 4: this particular match also the odd one was keeping a
Speaker 4: little low. But he did get important wickets like Ducket,
Speaker 4: like Gay where he got them to flinch and turn slightly.
Speaker 4: Duckett tried to swat him and was caught by Henry
Speaker 4: at mid on. Jamison got a few wickets at the
Speaker 4: starter as well. Everyone played their little bit, didn't they,
Speaker 4: But striding above everything it was Matt Henry his skill
Speaker 4: in that pitch, just outside of just the right links,
Speaker 4: nipping the odd one back. You know, he nearly got
Speaker 4: route and Brooke that second to last day didn't. He
Speaker 4: was inside edges, just onto the pad and then he
Speaker 4: got one to just hold its line a little bit
Speaker 4: with Brook looking to play it as if it was
Speaker 4: coming in, and took the outside edge and was gone.
Speaker 5: He was looking quite dangerous.
Speaker 2: It's it's looking to be an interesting Test match at
Speaker 2: trent Bridge now because England back in full force. They
Speaker 2: suffered because of the issue around Stokes. Now you know
Speaker 2: that that has been ongoing right the way since the
Speaker 2: Lord's Tests, but you know, are they going to overcome that?
Speaker 2: And this lead up to the trent Bridge Test?
Speaker 4: Oh mate, I just I had to go out on
Speaker 4: the field to start TMS and some of and some
Speaker 4: of the TV and that sort of thing, and the
Speaker 4: majority of the time we were not talking.
Speaker 5: About the game.
Speaker 4: We were talking about the Stokes Atkinson kind of incident.
Speaker 4: There were two investigations, one by the ECB. They thought
Speaker 4: they breached such a contractual obligation about the curfew. They
Speaker 4: didn't give any blame for the violent conduct at all
Speaker 4: to either of the players, and Stokes didn't even witness it,
Speaker 4: so that's what they came up with. Then the regulator
Speaker 4: is the other guy who was investigating it. He's more
Speaker 4: of a guy who takes a legal view of the
Speaker 4: whole thing, and he found there was no case to
Speaker 4: answer at all for them. There was no ECB rules
Speaker 4: or regulations broken, he said, and there's no provocation about
Speaker 4: the incident. So he just sort of pushed it from
Speaker 4: one side. So the curfew was obviously spoken about in
Speaker 4: the room, but it wasn't written down as contracts. Now,
Speaker 4: I'm afraid with players occur, so there was nothing they broke,
Speaker 4: and the habit carry on and carry on for two
Speaker 4: weeks is absolutely absurd.
Speaker 5: Why didn't someone take charge of the whole thing?
Speaker 4: The point I would make now is what happens now
Speaker 4: between Stokes McCullum.
Speaker 5: How is that relationship?
Speaker 4: I think Stokes personally won't be very happy and about that,
Speaker 4: and I think that's going to be the biggest issue
Speaker 4: now for McCullum to kind of repair that.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 4: Other people will have different views, I'm sure about it,
Speaker 4: but that's what I took from that whole thing. There
Speaker 4: is a gap, a schism, a fracture, whatever you want
Speaker 4: to call it between those two players who were soaked
Speaker 4: or those two important people Stokes and McCullum.
Speaker 5: That has occurred.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk about that shortly with one of
Speaker 2: your colleagues, Daniel across from TMS. But you'll be heading
Speaker 2: up to trent Bridge and I feel though from this
Speaker 2: side of the world, you'd have to go with the
Speaker 2: sort of confidence New Zealand will take up there as well,
Speaker 2: won't you. We know what happened at trent Bridge last
Speaker 2: time they played there and Johnny Besto ran a mock,
Speaker 2: didn't he. But the performance at the Oval where the
Speaker 2: last time New Zealand played there was nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 2: and Chris Kenns led us to victory in that Test
Speaker 2: match must give them great confidence going up to Nottingham.
Speaker 5: Definitely. Definitely.
Speaker 4: The bowling is starting to operate nicely together. I can't
Speaker 4: see that changing greatly. And the batting now is gaining confidence.
Speaker 4: I think it's looking a bit longer and a bit
Speaker 4: more certain. They're not just playing white ball shots than
Speaker 4: getting out any longer. They're playing a decent longlings. Let's
Speaker 4: hope that continues. I've looked at the scores at not
Speaker 4: they're round about I mean some of the scores for example,
Speaker 4: not playing Surry all teams three innings all four hundred.
Speaker 4: Somerset played there the latest game on June the twelfth
Speaker 4: to the fifteenth a three hundred and a three hundred
Speaker 4: for Somerset and not bowled out. It's the seamers have
Speaker 4: got most of the wickets, but there is also a
Speaker 4: guy called Liam Patterson White who's a left arm spinner
Speaker 4: who gets wickets for Not as well. And Leech has
Speaker 4: got a three in that last game as well. So
Speaker 4: whether England are going to go in with a spinner
Speaker 4: or whether they're just going to go with their seemers,
Speaker 4: we're going to have to wait and see.
Speaker 5: But it is possible to get runs there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting stuff for Jerry. The Stokes issue really played
Speaker 2: a big part in the entire Test and the lead
Speaker 2: up to the Test. And it's a pleasure to be
Speaker 2: joined by Test Met Special commentator Daniel Norcross because I'm
Speaker 2: sure it's an issue that's taken a lot of time
Speaker 2: and a lot of thought within the English media. To me,
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of plank spoken about the Stokes issue.
Speaker 2: I mean it's something that happens should have been dealt
Speaker 2: with and moved on, but it's dominated the whole time
Speaker 2: Daniel hasn't it in terms of Ben Stokes, not only
Speaker 2: as leader of the side, but his relationships with people
Speaker 2: around the game. And I think it's done England and
Speaker 2: the England team at the service, isn't it?
Speaker 6: Absolutely? And you know it's trying to process it. Brian
Speaker 6: is trying to work out who's to blame for what,
Speaker 6: and that's obviously what happens in these situations. You get fingerpointing.
Speaker 6: So let me give you roughly the timeline. So within
Speaker 6: twelve hours fifteen hours or so of England winning that
Speaker 6: bit of a lottery of a Test match at Lord's,
Speaker 6: suddenly you get this message that arrives on your phone
Speaker 6: and it was pretty blunt and it said that Ben
Speaker 6: Stokes and Gus Atkinson had been involved in an incident
Speaker 6: in a nightclub, at which point your heart sinks because
Speaker 6: it's the echoes. It's the echoes of the Ashes, it's
Speaker 6: the echoes of the pre Ashes, it's the echoes of
Speaker 6: Harry Brook and his nightclub incident in New Zealand, of Noosa,
Speaker 6: and it takes it all the way back to, of course,
Speaker 6: ben Stokes's fabled altercation in Bristol, which is now nearly
Speaker 6: nine years away, and you think to yourself, how on
Speaker 6: earth can this have happened? And the immediate reaction is,
Speaker 6: you know, if the captain's involved in an incident like this,
Speaker 6: then you know this is the last straw. Then you
Speaker 6: discover gradually over time, but so slowly, Wie and this
Speaker 6: was the issue that actually the captain wasn't involved in
Speaker 6: an altercation at all. It happened to be in a
Speaker 6: nightclub when a punch was thrown, not at him. And
Speaker 6: then you find out that there was a curfew in place,
Speaker 6: and you don't understand why there would be because to
Speaker 6: be really clear, you know, when a Test match is
Speaker 6: over and a lot of these players live in London,
Speaker 6: were they really expected to be on a curfew for
Speaker 6: the next ten days when they'd be going back to
Speaker 6: their houses. I mean, Jamie Smith himself was going to
Speaker 6: have to be at the birth of a child of
Speaker 6: his was going to was he going to have to
Speaker 6: miss it if it was after midnight? I mean the
Speaker 6: absurdity of all these particular you know, different bits and
Speaker 6: bobs that were that were failing to be addressed by
Speaker 6: the ECB. So the ECB left this vacuum in which
Speaker 6: speculation began to.
Speaker 5: Grow, and then we discovered.
Speaker 6: At the end of the entire process, when the end
Speaker 6: of the process was yesterday, that the cricket Regulator had
Speaker 6: reported that there was no breach. Now why it took
Speaker 6: so long, no one knows. And what I guess is
Speaker 6: is showing up here is that either the ECB have
Speaker 6: been exceptionally incompetent in managing the message, or there has
Speaker 6: been an attempt to kind of almost constructively dismiss s
Speaker 6: those almost as if the relationship between the cat and
Speaker 6: the management has broken down somewhere that we can't see
Speaker 6: somewhere over the course of the ashes and the build
Speaker 6: up to this series that actually they wanted him to
Speaker 6: resign himself. We had that peculiar press conference in which
Speaker 6: Brenda McCullen kept talking about Ben Stokes' mental health and
Speaker 6: being worried about him, and then within three days of
Speaker 6: that we had the CEO of Durham, the county where
Speaker 6: he plays, saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with Ben's mental
Speaker 6: health and we're looking forward to having him play for us.
Speaker 6: So it's been a snaffoo of the ECB's own making.
Speaker 6: You might argue that had Ben Stokes not bothered to
Speaker 6: go to a nightclub at all, even if he's having
Speaker 6: a quiet drink somewhere and nowhere near a punch, that
Speaker 6: wasn't sensible. But it's been overblown to such an extent.
Speaker 6: You've then found yourself with a bunch of cricketers who
Speaker 6: have become collateral damage. And I think here of the
Speaker 6: likes of the Demuton's Sonny Baker, James Rue coming into
Speaker 6: a game with very inadequate preparation in a that was
Speaker 6: not strong enough to really hold their own against a
Speaker 6: very very good New Zealand side, Matt Fisher coming back
Speaker 6: for his first game in four years, and they'll all
Speaker 6: be out of the team for the next game. I mean,
Speaker 6: we could very easily Brian have a bizarre situation in
Speaker 6: which England field and eleven at lords are totally different
Speaker 6: eleven for the second Test and revert to exactly the
Speaker 6: same eleven they had at Lord's for the third Test. Now,
Speaker 6: I'm pretty certain that's never happened in Test figure history.
Speaker 6: And the reason things like that don't happen is because
Speaker 6: it's a very bad idea. So you know, it's been
Speaker 6: a terrible, terrible sequence of errors. I don't know whether
Speaker 6: Ben Stokes's relationship with the ECB can be properly repaired.
Speaker 6: I don't know whether his relationship with Brendan McCullum is
Speaker 6: a healthy one. He didn't seem to be being supported
Speaker 6: in the immediate aftermath of the news breaking. And I
Speaker 6: would say that if New Zealand win the trent Bridge Test,
Speaker 6: and there's a very good chance of that happening because
Speaker 6: they're a very fine team and they're playing pretty well
Speaker 6: at the moment, you'd have to say I think something
Speaker 6: will break. And whether that's McCullum or Stokes or Key,
Speaker 6: I don't know. But this is quite a significant moment
Speaker 6: for English cricket and it's hoving interview and because of
Speaker 6: the next seven days.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's a perception that there is friction between individuals.
Speaker 2: That's the big concern, isn't it. And I sort of
Speaker 2: since on this side of the world, from reading what
Speaker 2: I have read of various sosuation, you're probably closer to it,
Speaker 2: and no more than me that there's a vast majority
Speaker 2: of people now don't want Stokes as captain. Is that
Speaker 2: a perception or is that a fact?
Speaker 5: Well, actually.
Speaker 6: I did a couple of events, you know, public events
Speaker 6: where you have dinners and whatnot, and the overwhelming sentiment
Speaker 6: in the general public that I saw was that they
Speaker 6: wanted Stokes. I mean, partly because of the cricketer that
Speaker 6: he is, partly because he balances the team, partly because
Speaker 6: I don't think people in England are blaming Stokes is
Speaker 6: kept and sy for England's failures. They're tending to blame
Speaker 6: more the coach and Rob Key for inadequate preparation, not
Speaker 6: giving the team what they needed in advance of the
Speaker 6: action series, going into these series with a kind of
Speaker 6: Devil may care attitude, and Stokes was adopting a quite
Speaker 6: a different approach during the Ashes, as you may remember,
Speaker 6: you know, suddenly digging himself in in Brisbane and Adelaide,
Speaker 6: kind of abandoning the approach that had taken them to
Speaker 6: that point. So I think actually I was quite surprised
Speaker 6: to see it. I expected there to be a kind
Speaker 6: of angry backlash at Stokes, what are you doing in
Speaker 6: a nightclub. We've been through this all over again. That's it,
Speaker 6: We've had enough. But actually there's quite a lot of
Speaker 6: sympathy for Stokes, and whether that's because, as I say,
Speaker 6: because he's such a colossal cricketer in English history, because
Speaker 6: of what he represents the moments he's been at, but
Speaker 6: also because he's such a key figure in making that
Speaker 6: eleven actually work.
Speaker 5: I don't know. So I would think that actually the
Speaker 5: the bigger pressure is.
Speaker 6: Going to be on McCollum, key and as well as
Speaker 6: the Richards, Goulden Thompson at the top, because you know,
Speaker 6: they are part of the decision making process that results
Speaker 6: in there being no practice matches before the Ashes, you know,
Speaker 6: playing a one day series in New Zealand, but sending
Speaker 6: many of the Ashes squad there completely inadequate preparation. So yeah,
Speaker 6: I look, it's hard to tells and it's hard to gauge,
Speaker 6: but I think the general feeling is that people want
Speaker 6: Stokes back and they're starting to tire of the words
Speaker 6: that are coming out of the ECB took.
Speaker 2: A bit of stick from their former players, Michael Vaughan
Speaker 2: and even Ian both of them. But Rich I said
Speaker 2: a little bit earlier. Some people just don't learn, do they. Well,
Speaker 2: you know it, Boss took a long while to learn,
Speaker 2: didn't he when he was playing the game. But The
Speaker 2: end result Dan is that the England side didn't play well.
Speaker 2: They were outplayed by New Zealand. Some qualify cricket from
Speaker 2: the New Zealanders in that guy. There's some quality stuff
Speaker 2: from England as well. But New Zealand outplayed them, didn't.
Speaker 6: They well, they absolutely thrashed them. I mean the only
Speaker 6: time that England were in that game was on the
Speaker 6: first day and that was largely due to self inflicted
Speaker 6: mistakes by the New Zealand batters on a pretty good
Speaker 6: pitch on the first day. You know, there were a
Speaker 6: few soft dismissals, there was some pretty tight, decent enough
Speaker 6: bowling from a very callow attack. I mean, you know,
Speaker 6: it was the most inexperienced four man pace attack England
Speaker 6: has ever put out. Between them, they had twenty nine caps,
Speaker 6: which is just insanely inexperienced. You know, they sort of
Speaker 6: held their own on the first day, they were a
Speaker 6: bit assisted by New Zealand, but thereafter New Zealand beat
Speaker 6: them in every department of the game. England were dropping catches.
Speaker 6: They got a new wicket keeper behind the stumps who
Speaker 6: didn't look up to the job in his first game. Understandably,
Speaker 6: New Zealand's bowling was persistent and penetrative, and you know,
Speaker 6: it's wonderful to see there's a foreman pace attack there
Speaker 6: that one day Nathan Smith is taking five six wickets,
Speaker 6: then Kyle Jamison's chipping in with three or four willow
Speaker 6: rowp looks like a persistent threat and amongst all of it,
Speaker 6: Matt Henry's taking eleven wickets. They've got good plans. They
Speaker 6: know how to keep England's best batters quiet.
Speaker 5: I thought the.
Speaker 6: Plans to Brook and Route were absolutely impeccable. They looked
Speaker 6: like they were playing Test cricket, whereas England team, not
Speaker 6: particularly surprisingly given their inexperience, looked like they were treading water,
Speaker 6: thrashing about trying to stay in the game. And I
Speaker 6: mean I thought before this series started that England would
Speaker 6: really struggle to beat New Zealand. England don't lose Test
Speaker 6: series at home very often, the last one was about
Speaker 6: thirteen years ago.
Speaker 5: But New Zealand are a very.
Speaker 6: Strong team who were habitually underestimated by England and by
Speaker 6: many of their other opponents. And they've shown it that
Speaker 6: the bowlers are going to win you series, aren't they
Speaker 6: And their format pace attack I think is better groove,
Speaker 6: better honed, more experienced, and they work as a pack,
Speaker 6: and they've got plans and they know how to get
Speaker 6: people out. England plans were very simple. Joe Route returning
Speaker 6: as captain when he couldn't get a wicket, goes to
Speaker 6: a short ballploy the over bowl. Joff Er Archer again
Speaker 6: eight o uspell. I mean shades of Mount Munganery, wasn't it.
Speaker 6: They're just persistently sticking around with a leg slip hoping
Speaker 6: that the little work. I mean it did on a
Speaker 6: couple of occasions, but it's a pretty simple plan. And
Speaker 6: I genuinely think that bas ball could have started against
Speaker 6: New Zealand in twenty twenty two with that thrilling series
Speaker 6: from an English point of view, and it could be
Speaker 6: about to come to an end of the hands of
Speaker 6: New Zealand four years later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's going to be seen, I guess in
Speaker 2: trent Bridge. Is there room for spin bowler for either
Speaker 2: side at trim Bridge? Do you see?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 6: Ordinarily I wouldn't have been particularly keen on a spinner
Speaker 6: at trent Bridge because they don't usually prosper particularly, but
Speaker 6: we've got some incredibly hot weather here. I mean, I
Speaker 6: know the English often complain about heat when it's only
Speaker 6: twenty five, but it's about thirty five to thirty eight degrees,
Speaker 6: so that could affect the pitch interesting to see. It
Speaker 6: could break up a bit. England's problem is that they
Speaker 6: haven't developed a good spinner over the course of the
Speaker 6: last four or five years. If they did play a spinner,
Speaker 6: it would be Busher, who has had some success at
Speaker 6: trent Bridge. I think I don't know whether New Zealand
Speaker 6: need a spinner. With Revenderer and Glenn Phillips. I think
Speaker 6: they've probably got enough because the pacers are bowling so well.
Speaker 6: I would stick with what they've got. I think England
Speaker 6: might consider the spinner because if Stokes comes back in
Speaker 6: that balances aside. They can play four seemers and go
Speaker 6: back to bush here. But you know, Push is a
Speaker 6: young man who's still pretty I mean, he's quite experienced
Speaker 6: in Test match term was weirdly interprise. He's got over
Speaker 6: fifty wickets, but he's inexperienced in first class terms. He
Speaker 6: hasn't played a great deal. He's got a county now
Speaker 6: and he's not I don't think a Test quality spinner.
Speaker 6: But they might be tempted to play him, I guess
Speaker 6: because those conditions, because the pitch could break up. But
Speaker 6: similar to New Zealand, they have Bethel Route who could
Speaker 6: do that job. Whether five seamers is a bit of overkill,
Speaker 6: I don't know. So they're indicated by playing If they
Speaker 6: were going to play Persheer at Lord's where you never
Speaker 6: really thought a spinner would come into it, then they
Speaker 6: might very well picked one at trent Bridge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lovely to talk to you again, Daniel. Hopefully you
Speaker 2: can get an opportunity to talk cricket with you in
Speaker 2: the future. Get off to trent Bridge, enjoy that Test
Speaker 2: match and hopefully enjoy New Zealand winning a series.
Speaker 6: Well do you know they've been terrific fun to watch
Speaker 6: and I wouldn't be grudge of the win at all.
Speaker 3: Good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Daniel. Lovely to talk to you. But parochial,
Speaker 2: I guess, and unfeared. Daniel Norcross was balanced and complimentary
Speaker 2: to the black Caps, and I think gave a fair
Speaker 2: assessment of life in England at the moment. Boy, they're
Speaker 2: facing some issues. Finally this week, sitting in his office chairs,
Speaker 2: sitting a flat white and trying to get some worked
Speaker 2: downe Peter Holland still has time to talk cricket. You
Speaker 2: always had time to talk cricket. It won't take too
Speaker 2: much of your time. Most I know how business is
Speaker 2: up there in the city of Sales, but I guess,
Speaker 2: like me, you were able to celebrate an outstanding Black
Speaker 2: Caps when along the way it.
Speaker 3: Was a fabulous match and five days what a novelty?
Speaker 3: Oh really, but it went into the fifth day that
Speaker 3: myself I love because we had we had interesting cricket
Speaker 3: all the way through. I really enjoy the jousting between
Speaker 3: Phillips and Archer. What that that was riveting stuff, amazing.
Speaker 3: It's the sort of things that you go this is
Speaker 3: pretty good, isn't it. And I think I think Jerry
Speaker 3: touched on the fact that Phillips played so wonderfully not
Speaker 3: trying to hit the ball and in fact trying to
Speaker 3: evade and and aware Archer down and I think I
Speaker 3: think it's also picked up by Daniel Norcross that towards
Speaker 3: a Jerry that that was say many bold eight overs
Speaker 3: and was probably over bold by Joe Rude, which is
Speaker 3: a shame because that was this great stuff propping up
Speaker 3: a very inexperienced English side and as such got comprehensively beaten,
Speaker 3: didn't they But was You can't take that away from
Speaker 3: You can say it's an experienced team, particularly the the
Speaker 3: the attack, but you can't take it away from the
Speaker 3: fact that New Zealand played very well they across the board.
Speaker 3: My only concerns will be we're not getting enough out
Speaker 3: of our openers. Other than that, I'm greatly greatly encouraged
Speaker 3: by what we saw from this match. I really am
Speaker 3: revenge us really need them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we got one more Test match of the series
Speaker 2: and they're getting better. They certainly improved from Lords and
Speaker 2: you know there's well, there's some probably poor memories from
Speaker 2: Trent Bridge, remember back there when Johnny Bestow gave us
Speaker 2: a bit of a pounding and we lost a Test
Speaker 2: match there last time. But you know, I think the
Speaker 2: site is better equipped to handle it. One of the
Speaker 2: interesting things that you know, we've talked about and Daniel
Speaker 2: Norcross I looked at it was the Stokes issue. Would
Speaker 2: that go on in New Zealand and England were brought
Speaker 2: down by friendly fire? Weren't they? And it's now become
Speaker 2: almost a Mills and Boone romance story. The way the
Speaker 2: Poms handle it. To me, it was just one issue,
Speaker 2: deal with and move on. But you know they want
Speaker 2: to keep it going forever in the day.
Speaker 3: There seems to be something in the UK, whether it
Speaker 3: be in EP or football, they're always gunning for a manager.
Speaker 3: You have a couple of losses, they're after you straight away.
Speaker 3: And there was there was elements of all of that.
Speaker 3: It was it was got a vindictive, nasty attitude towards Stokes.
Speaker 3: They want it. They're after McCullum, right or wrong, They're
Speaker 3: after Key and they don't let go. And by the way,
Speaker 3: what's what's been shown here is that they don't want
Speaker 3: to let facts get in the way of the whole
Speaker 3: story or or the pitch that they are trying to
Speaker 3: actually run here, because when the investigations were completed, it
Speaker 3: appears there was nothing to be seen here and and
Speaker 3: in fact it was overblown and looks like a complete
Speaker 3: beat up. And I have the greatest sympathy for Archer
Speaker 3: and for that matter, Atkinson and frankly, when you've won
Speaker 3: a match in three days and you got ten days
Speaker 3: to go, they're all growing ups and they're allowed to
Speaker 3: go out there. What is also fascinating there's beat up
Speaker 3: around the curfew, nothing written down because therefore that the
Speaker 3: ECB had nothing to hang their head on. There was
Speaker 3: no breach of team rules or protocols. Yeah, is that
Speaker 3: they're to get someone because there's heat coming on them
Speaker 3: for higher up. So if I've got a victim, you know,
Speaker 3: it's a classic thing. If I've got a victim, then
Speaker 3: I will look after myself. I'm not sure I'm being
Speaker 3: unkind there, but it sniffs a little bit of that,
Speaker 3: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no no crime committed as such, but
Speaker 2: because of the past misdemeanors in Australia, there's always a
Speaker 2: perception and a sniff of something which you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just a pointless exercises and it's basically clickbait and
Speaker 2: they needed to just get on with it. And you know,
Speaker 2: I mean Stokes is at a stage in his career
Speaker 2: where you know, he may be winding down, who knows,
Speaker 2: but they're already trying to create a gap between he McCullen,
Speaker 2: and of course this is an important relationship. They have
Speaker 2: to be on the same page. But we will watch
Speaker 2: with interest, won't.
Speaker 3: We We will? And I also can I just add
Speaker 3: in there. I feel sorry for Joe Root when he
Speaker 3: hits this dumped on him, and I think it's been
Speaker 3: proven that Joe who is a most wonderful player and
Speaker 3: you know, a huge landmark during that Test. But maybe
Speaker 3: Captain sees not his not his go there was no
Speaker 3: one else and I accept that. And the poor guy
Speaker 3: there is has a real thumping defeat on his record now,
Speaker 3: which is kind of like it's a bit unfre on
Speaker 3: the on the poor blog and he and he batted
Speaker 3: through for a really good seventy and then got a
Speaker 3: good one from Henry. So you know, I feel sorry
Speaker 3: for Joe Root. But hopefully we're going to see Stokes
Speaker 3: and co back and I think that's going to make
Speaker 3: for an absolutely cracking game of cricket because when he's
Speaker 3: back and Atkinson's back, they are a better side.
Speaker 2: I've been I've been fighting back the tears for poor
Speaker 2: old Joe. You know, it's been hard, and I really,
Speaker 2: you know, have been able to wipe away those tears
Speaker 2: and hope that he gets another duck in the next
Speaker 2: Test match or a duck. The other thing I'm interested
Speaker 2: in is that they can't find room for Oli Robinson
Speaker 2: back in the team. Atkinson comes back in, but Robinson,
Speaker 2: along with Tongue, is their best bowler. I know how
Speaker 2: good Archer is and how dangerous he can be, but Robinson,
Speaker 2: to my mind, was the equivalent of Matt Henry in
Speaker 2: that second Test.
Speaker 3: From a New Zealer point of view, I'm pleased they can't.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah they can't because I think he's that awkward
Speaker 3: you and Chatfield with an extra couple of yards of pace.
Speaker 3: He hits your hits, hits the back real hard, he
Speaker 3: hits it high up on the back, he nips it back,
Speaker 3: hits your inside. He's He's niggly and and and really difficult.
Speaker 3: I'd be, frankly I'd be swapping out Robinson for for
Speaker 3: Atkinson myself, because I think he's a far more dangerous,
Speaker 3: dangerous bowler. Atkinson very good, very very good, but also
Speaker 3: Robinson's not. He's no schmuck with the with the with
Speaker 3: the bad either. Cam Cam can't played, just as Atkinson
Speaker 3: can as well. Yeah, I'd be going for Robinson myself
Speaker 3: one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting but yeah, it's nice to have that
Speaker 2: quality available. New Zealand has that quality available. Last week
Speaker 2: we debated Nichols or Young as Williamson's replacement. I guess
Speaker 2: I for one didn't give Nichols a fair hearing eye
Speaker 2: went for the Young because he's the right hand and
Speaker 2: no difference between them. But but really Nichols proved with
Speaker 2: some real hard grafting plan. He's not the prettiest batsman
Speaker 2: to watch, is he? But he did the job that
Speaker 2: you want from number three, didn't he?
Speaker 5: Well? No question?
Speaker 3: And I too a bit of eat some humble pie.
Speaker 3: I've felt that he's he sort of earned the place
Speaker 3: of others that I thought were perhaps more more rewarding
Speaker 3: of other spot and he was taking a place up.
Speaker 3: But I really got to take that back and and
Speaker 3: he did force his way in by virtue of what
Speaker 3: he did in our summer here in New Zealand, and
Speaker 3: that was a damn fine innings. And so I've just
Speaker 3: got to say, yep, well done him. Another person who
Speaker 3: I was not so sure about, and we discussed it
Speaker 3: earlier was Blundle Good fifty and that move where he's
Speaker 3: standing up to the stumps to Henry Ander Smith was
Speaker 3: reminiscent and I recall it vividly when he did that
Speaker 3: in Wellington at the Basin Reserve, and I remember sitting
Speaker 3: in the members bar, not when I was having a
Speaker 3: cup of tea course with one day O'Sullivan, old teammate
Speaker 3: of mine, and we both noticed it because that changed
Speaker 3: it that fifth day because Blundell came up. He brought
Speaker 3: Pope back onto that out of the crease, and all
Speaker 3: of a sudden the slips came in into play and
Speaker 3: then they knocked over very quickly broke that end, same
Speaker 3: sort of thing by standing up. And I noticed also
Speaker 3: that Kerry was doing that with Nissa and Boland in
Speaker 3: the ashes tests. I love it because that is craftsmanship
Speaker 3: and keeping at its at its absolute best. And so
Speaker 3: again Blundele very very well played this time, and he
Speaker 3: probably doesn't get the plaudits he should get because he
Speaker 3: gave back Matt Henry those opportunities to nibble away there.
Speaker 3: And I guess because he's so accurate Henry, you know,
Speaker 3: he's not firing one down leg and so on, it
Speaker 3: makes it a little bit easier for bl But no,
Speaker 3: hats off to Blundle and and two Nickels very much so.
Speaker 3: Great great performances.
Speaker 2: Yeah, outstanding wicket keeping and interesting when you look at
Speaker 2: the scoreboard. The New Zealand first innings of three hundred
Speaker 2: and ninety one. There were fifty three extras and a
Speaker 2: lot of those were buyers and leg buys. The keeper
Speaker 2: for England okay, he was a stand and keeper, but
Speaker 2: you know he has a difficult time and I think
Speaker 2: he tried to come up to the stumps at one
Speaker 2: stage as well. But you know, it was it was
Speaker 2: interesting stuff in terms of that game. But it's exciting
Speaker 2: now when we look ahead, as as Jerry and Daniel
Speaker 2: Nacross said just previously in the program when we were
Speaker 2: talking to them, most that this is an exciting test at.
Speaker 3: Win it takes all well you won one and both
Speaker 3: sides of one comprehensively. Basically we're going to probably we
Speaker 3: have the same team we had at Lord's from England
Speaker 3: and pretty much the same team we'll play at temperature
Speaker 3: for New Zealand. I think though, well, it's always been
Speaker 3: a SEEMA friendly, hasn't it. It's trump Bridge. But then
Speaker 3: I just wonder, because it's been so warm over there
Speaker 3: in the English summer, whether that still plays. And I
Speaker 3: think Jerry was touching on the fact that people are
Speaker 3: be getting a lot of runs at Trent Bridge. Could
Speaker 3: be a very interesting match again. But I like the
Speaker 3: way our taxes has sort of going about their work.
Speaker 3: We've got pace, we've got bounce, we've got the variations
Speaker 3: through Henry Smith is getting getting better and better, brilliant
Speaker 3: round out by the way for Duckett early days. You know,
Speaker 3: it's a good team, isn't it. That they're starting to
Speaker 3: pull together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exciting stuff. And you're right, thirty to thirty five
Speaker 2: degrees which will put a bit of pressure on the
Speaker 2: captain and the use of paste bowlers and those sorts
Speaker 2: of things. And of course Trent Bridges is a funny shape,
Speaker 2: isn't it. They've had to remodel things. They couldn't push
Speaker 2: it out at one part where they put the new
Speaker 2: standard and the boundaries are not the longest. So that's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons too why there's been run scored there.
Speaker 2: But it's exciting, too exciting to look ahead.
Speaker 3: To very much. So I quite like the quirkiness of
Speaker 3: some of those grounds in England. Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 3: that's part of that, that's part of the the joys
Speaker 3: of cricket. You know. Wasn't there one in Canterbury where
Speaker 3: there was an oak tree down at third Man for quite.
Speaker 2: A long time middle of the park.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the funny.
Speaker 2: We were going to talk about the white fans this
Speaker 2: morning too, but I'm afraid they're playing for a place
Speaker 2: to come home somehow. There is an opportunity if the
Speaker 2: West Indies get beaten twice in New Zealand is able
Speaker 2: to beat England, and I hope they can at least
Speaker 2: come away with some modicum of fectibility. But it's been
Speaker 2: a sad performance by the White fans and the chances
Speaker 2: of defending that title just slipped away right from the
Speaker 2: first day. You gotta take your catches nice.
Speaker 3: Ah. And we're not talking difficult ones either, really, are we, Brian?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: And these are professional athletes. Yeah, yep, that's what they are.
Speaker 2: And they're getting they're getting paid good money. Now, I
Speaker 2: mean it's not a million dollar stuff, but they're getting
Speaker 2: a living.
Speaker 3: H You can, you can and and and look, we
Speaker 3: everyone's very kind and and very sympathetic and so on.
Speaker 3: But frankly, this yet is not good enough. And they
Speaker 3: must know it themselves because if they're taking it, just
Speaker 3: just even half of those catches, catches put pressure on
Speaker 3: the next next play. We all know how this rolls.
Speaker 3: But I just not they're sadly. Sadly I think the.
Speaker 2: Toast, yeah, which is a pretty but you know, provided
Speaker 2: they take the good lessons from it, not the learnings
Speaker 2: the less that have come out.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is a lesson that's corrects learning. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The The other thing too is that it's always a
Speaker 2: sad time in cricket when your mates pass on. But
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you knew Russell Robinson very well,
Speaker 2: a good mate of chats, but Russell Robinson brilliant snooker player,
Speaker 2: left arm round the wicket barlor. He used to start
Speaker 2: with the left arm behind his back and then he
Speaker 2: would deliver pass away this week squeaky as we knew him,
Speaker 2: a really funny man, a lovely friend of everybody in cricket.
Speaker 2: And he's passed away. You probably would have played a
Speaker 2: game against him all with him at some stage.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, But it's a name from the
Speaker 3: distant pass. But sadly, you know, we we you know,
Speaker 3: we're having a few disappear on us and that's just
Speaker 3: part of life, I suppose, but almost nice to acknowledge
Speaker 3: and and just to just comment on the contributions of
Speaker 3: someone who's a decent human being, good cricketer and a
Speaker 3: lot of fun and and we're the poor, poor for
Speaker 3: him not being around. But that is life, I guess.
Speaker 2: And they've had impact on our lives in one way
Speaker 2: or another and we thank them for that. The other
Speaker 2: person who's just passed away Dave cansella who you will
Speaker 2: have known to former CD bowler umpire father of Penny
Speaker 2: and Roger Cainseller. He has passed away as well. And
Speaker 2: I have a lot of memories of him going round
Speaker 2: the domestic scene because he was an umpire player and
Speaker 2: a very very quiet gentleman who always offered good, positive
Speaker 2: thoughts on things.
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of that brand. And I do remember
Speaker 3: Dave Conseller one as a kid when when he was
Speaker 3: bowling you know, mediums for for CD. But more importantly
Speaker 3: he was an umpire when when I was coming into
Speaker 3: first class cricket at the time, And you're right about that.
Speaker 3: The one thing that I remember about him was he
Speaker 3: was a quiet gentleman, tall man, but very gentle spirit
Speaker 3: and just it was a very nice fellow and and
Speaker 3: and he sticks in my memory for sure. So our
Speaker 3: condolences to the Conseiller family. Lovely fellow. Yeah, and never
Speaker 3: had a lot to say, but but but yeah, that
Speaker 3: sticks in my memory for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, our condolences to both families, Russell Robinson and
Speaker 2: Dave Kinsella and fond memories for both those individuals. All right,
Speaker 2: well you can, you can finish your coffee off, you
Speaker 2: can put your feet up, you can get ready for
Speaker 2: the test at trent Bridge, and I suppose you'll be
Speaker 2: watching the highlights of the morning rather than sleeping through
Speaker 2: the night watching.
Speaker 3: Well I do. I do actually tune into Jerry during
Speaker 3: the night on the radio commentaries because I do quite
Speaker 3: enjoy them, so I quite like that.
Speaker 2: The other thing is he's working for so many radio
Speaker 2: stations over there. He's doing common NonStop commentary.
Speaker 3: I think does he know which one he's doing because
Speaker 3: he's not getting the younger for a fellow who's a
Speaker 3: very sprightly seventy four, he's going, okay as our Jerry.
Speaker 2: But happy birthday for the twenty first Jeremy Coney when
Speaker 2: he turned at seventy four, so he's I'm sure celebrated
Speaker 2: that in the appropriate fashion.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, toasted Jerry and on what we call winter Solstice,
Speaker 3: and of course the longest day in summer over there.
Speaker 3: So there you go, twenty first to.
Speaker 2: Journey, shortest day in New Zealand. Enjoy yourself, most.
Speaker 3: Do we'll do, and look forward to look forward to
Speaker 3: chatting again and maybe you wrapping up a two to
Speaker 3: one series victory for our voice New Zealand.
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Moose, Thank you very much. Also to
Speaker 2: Daniel Norcross and to you Jerry. You've been sitting on there,
Speaker 2: I since you've been enjoying this. I know you enjoyed
Speaker 2: Test cricket, but I sense that you've had a real
Speaker 2: enjoyment out of watching the proceedings in this three Test series.
Speaker 2: I have, you know, lying on my beard in the
Speaker 2: lounge watching the carry on. But it's great cricket. It's
Speaker 2: great theater. It's what cricket to me is all about.
Speaker 2: Forget your white ball, your colored stuff. This is great theater.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is what it's I did.
Speaker 4: I did get a lot of pleasure, of course, a
Speaker 4: lot more because New Zealand happened to play well and
Speaker 4: they earned the victory and they were better. Now the
Speaker 4: stronger side, I think, slightly stronger side, you know, in
Speaker 4: this third Test match, hopefully it'll be a decent pitch
Speaker 4: and it will be a little bit more even, I think,
Speaker 4: but New Zealand will feel if they can, you know,
Speaker 4: repeat that kind of performance again, they'll have a good chance.
Speaker 2: All Right, This up next week again. Enjoy Trembridge and
Speaker 2: we'll talk again.
Speaker 5: We'll do ones look forward to it.
Speaker 2: Thanksumming.
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