1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: The war in Ukraine has turned the humble quad copter 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: into one of the most important weapons of the modern battlefield. 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: With cheap first person viewed racing drones now hunting tanks, 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: artillery and infantry at close range, consumer gear you can 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: buy off the shelf, DJI style camera drones, FPV racers, 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: even three D printed parts and Ali Express components have 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: been hacked, hardened, and networked into a vast lethal drone ecosystem, 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: stretching from trench lines to deep behind enemy territory. I'm 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: Peter Griffin from Business Desk, and in this episode of 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: the Business of Tech, Powered by Two Degrees, we dive 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: into how a nearly four year war in Europe has 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: quietly rewritten the playbook for air power, not with stealth bombers, 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: but with drones that started life in hobby shops and 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: electronics stores. Those viral cockpit style FPV clips on social 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: media are just the visible tip for much larger transformation. 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: Commercial off the shelf drones have democratized air power, giving 17 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: small units and even non state actors precision strike and 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: real time surveillance once reserved for superpowers. So this week 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: I'm talking to Fenix uas founder and drone expert, doctor 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: Andrew Shelley, one of New Zealand's foremost authorities on unmanned 21 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: aircraft operations, regulation and training. Andrew unpacks what Ukraine, the 22 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: Middle East and other recent conflicts really tell us about 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: the future of drone warfare, from fiber optic, tethered FPV 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: drones and visual navigation guidance to how electronic warfare and 25 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: counter drone systems are revolving. We also bring a story 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: back home looking at how New Zealand companies and agencies 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: are using drones today in agritech conservation, infrastructure, inspection and training, 28 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: and where the real productivity game will come from. Andrew 29 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: explains why search and rescue is still an unrealized opportunity 30 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to drones, how AI enabled agrotech drones 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: could transform everything from wilding pine control to pasture management, 32 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: and what needs to change in New Zealand's regulatory settings 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: to unlock that potential while managing emerging security risks. So, 34 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: if you want to understand how backyard drone tinkering turned 35 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: into a defining technology of modern war and what that 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: means for New Zealand farms, forests, coastlands, and defense planners. 37 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: Stay tuned for my conversation with doctor Andrew Shelley. Andrew Shelley, 38 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing. 39 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: OHI thank you very much. I'm really happy to be here. 40 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, really great to have you on. I think Andrew, 41 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: you're probably New Zealand's foremost expert on drones, both from 42 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: in a practical sense but also in a theory medical 43 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: sense as well. You've done at least two degrees, the 44 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: focus of which was on drones. You're an economist, you've 45 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: been involved in the aviation sector for a long time 46 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: and currently you are the founder of Phoenix Uas, which 47 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: is you've got a team of people. They're probably one 48 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: of the biggest consultancies in New Zealand focused in this area. 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: Oh yes, that's right. It would be the largest consultancy 50 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: focused on the area. A big part of what we 51 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: do is training, so we have multiple instructors. We'd be 52 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: running courses for most weeks of the year. We run 53 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: at least one course, might be multiple courses and multiple 54 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: locations across the country. We'd have over a thousand people 55 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: through our training school each year, and that includes both 56 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: civilian and government people, including New Zealand depends forts, so 57 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: we see all of the regulations from both sides of 58 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: the fence. We also are one of the major writers 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: of what's called expositions. So if someone wants to obtain 60 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: certification from the Civil Aviation Authority to do something that 61 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: sits outside the basic part one in one rules, you 62 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: need to provide an operating manual of how you'll do 63 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: that and how you do it safely. Civil Aviation Authority 64 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: assesses that and requests changes if they need to, and 65 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: then ultimately you get certification granted and you operate in 66 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: accordance with that manual. We have as clients over one 67 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty of the three hundred that are currently certified, 68 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: we've got about another seventy that are in the process 69 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: of going through that. So again from that perspective, we 70 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 2: have a broader overview of what everyone's doing with drants 71 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: then perhaps anyone else in the country. 72 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: Well, and we're going to get into that shortly, both 73 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: the commercial and civilian use cases that are emerging in 74 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: New Zealand, and also look at the military aspects as well, 75 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: which has been sort of in the media spotlight in 76 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: recent years, mainly due to the war in Ukraine. But 77 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: Andrew really keen just to get your perspective if you 78 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: look back over the last five to ten years, just 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: the massive sort of innovation that's gone on in the 80 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: drone space. 81 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: You know. 82 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: I remember probably about seven or eight years ago, I 83 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: bought a DJI drone. You know, the rules and regulations 84 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: were just sort of in the early stage in New Zealand. 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: I would take that out to a remote area, put 86 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: it up and you know, out of the woodwork would 87 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: come people, you know, shouting at me, why are you 88 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: filming my house? The seagulls and the magpies were dive 89 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: bombing me. So I sold it very quickly. I think 90 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: you were writing around the time twenty eighteen twenty nineteen 91 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: that we needed better regulations for sort of amateur drone 92 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: use in New Zealand. Talk about how things have evolved there, 93 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: But in terms of the technology, what are some of 94 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: the key breakthroughs that have happened sort of in the 95 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: last ten years that have made drones so versatile for 96 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: such a wide range of uses. 97 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: If you go back ten years, that was when we 98 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: first introduced our drone rules here in New Zealand. So 99 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: it was obvious that drones were going to be a thing, 100 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: and a lot of them were fairly rudimentary at that stage. 101 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: A lot of people were building their own and DJI 102 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: was pretty new on the scene ten years ago. And 103 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: then if we look what's happened in that ten years, 104 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: pretty much every part of drone technology has improved, not 105 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: all in one big bang incremental improvements. Batteries have improved, 106 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: so now rather than getting maybe twenty five minutes like time, 107 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 2: you might get forty five minutes flight on. We're using 108 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: lighter and stronger materials. Some of the manufacturing has been 109 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: streamlined a lot, so that we've got the cost productions 110 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: that come with massive production three D printing of components 111 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: that were previously hand manufactured or machine And then think 112 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: about some of the senses. Just the camera on your 113 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: phone in that period of time has vastly improved. The 114 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: same senses are there on the drones, and that's also 115 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: gone to things like obstacle avoidance technology. Those are all 116 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: the things you can see. What you can't see is 117 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: that software on board, and that's continuous iteration and development 118 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: of those systems as well, so there's much better obstacle 119 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: avoidance than there ever was much better ability to hold position, 120 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: do advanced things like follow me mode, fly around a 121 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: point of interest, those sorts of things. That's all been 122 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: a huge series of incremental improvements. 123 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: And the buzzword obviously in the last few years is 124 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. The generative AI revolution has that also come 125 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: to drones as AI making a big impact on how 126 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: drones are operated in what they can do. 127 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: I don't think in the consumer or commercial market yet 128 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: that it really is and and of course AI is 129 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: goes across a bit of a spectrum. For the last 130 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: thirty years, there's been talk about using algorithms to be 131 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: able to interpret data and predict what comes out of that. 132 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: But we are starting to see now some I guess 133 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: more leading each applications where AI is quite significant. I'll 134 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: drop a few names as I go through through the podcasts. 135 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: There's a new Zealand firm SPS Automation, and what they're 136 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: focused on is building large agricultural drones that can identify 137 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: wilding pints autonomously and go and deposit a small amount 138 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: of chemical herbicide on those just the wilding pint to 139 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: deal with that problem. And that's something that could be 140 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: done by an individual drone with an individual pilot, but 141 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: can be done so much more efficiently if you've got 142 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: an AI based system that can visually detect which these 143 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: plants are. So there's certainly applications like that which are 144 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: on the verge of becoming commercial, which could make a 145 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: significant difference. 146 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've seen some pretty impressive demonstrations a lot 147 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: out of China actually in terms of drone swarms, and 148 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: you know these potentially have military applications, but also for 149 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: entertainment purposes. You know, you can do some very impressive 150 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: light displays with them. But introducing autonomy into drones, like 151 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: you say, with the wilding pine example, if you can 152 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: send off a few drones to automatically identify a pine 153 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: tree that needs to be eradicated, you don't need one 154 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: operator with a joyster controlling each drone. That's going to 155 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: be a bit of a game changer for certain applications. 156 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: Well will, and for that particular one, it's using drones 157 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 2: by themselves enables you to get to places that would 158 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: almost be impossible on foot and which might be prohibitably 159 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: expensive to do with mand aviation. And then once you 160 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 2: can go well, actually we've got maybe half a dozen 161 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 2: of these, maybe ten of these, which can go out 162 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 2: over a wide area. We can then do things which 163 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: at the moment which just aren't being done at all. 164 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: And so we do have this wild and pine problem 165 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: on the South Island also in central North plind and 166 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: it's just been cost prohibitive to be able to effectively 167 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: address it. So there's a conservation application effectively for us 168 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: that the use of ALI is going to make so 169 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: much easier and more cost efficient. 170 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: And in terms of there's drones, but there's also sort 171 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: of the ground equipment and it's very much around safety 172 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and military applications as well, detecting, intercepting drones, jamming drones. 173 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: We saw these incredible photos out of Ukraine kilometers of 174 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: fiber optic cable strewn across the battlefield which is connected 175 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: to it drone to try and avoid that drone being 176 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: basically jammed and taken down through jamming off the radio 177 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: signals that operate it. So we're seeing well this sort 178 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: of innovation I guess as well happening. Airports are deploying 179 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: this technology to make sure that a drone doesn't come 180 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: into airspace and potentially cause an accident, and we seeing 181 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: a lot of innovation there as well. 182 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And when you talk about the Ukraine case with 183 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: the fiber optics, I remember it might have been early 184 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: last year seeing a video of taken from an FPV 185 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: drone and there was two Russian vehicles that were coming 186 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: out of one road and turning on to another, and 187 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: you could see with the perspective of the drone the 188 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 2: front vehicle was some sort of arment vehicle. The one 189 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: behind it was festooned with the antennas. It was the 190 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: electronic warfare vehicle that was supposed to be jamming the 191 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: ability of any drone to attack, and this little drone 192 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: just flew straight past that one with all the electronic 193 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 2: warfare equipment on it and hit the armored vehicle in front. 194 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: We didn't have another view to show us just how 195 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: big the damage was because obviously the drone that had 196 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 2: been taking the photo is now blurt up. But that 197 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 2: illustrated one of the early uses of that fiber optic. 198 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: But I think part of that also illustrates that to 199 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: a certain extent, what we're seeing in Ukraine is that 200 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: the old is new again. So and by that wire 201 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: guided missiles, I think they came into effect in the 202 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: earlier in the nineteen seventies, so it's been around for decades. 203 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: And now we've gone from radio control for these strike 204 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: drones back to wyre guiding with a fiber optic link. 205 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: The other thing that is sort of the old has 206 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: become new again. As I'm old enough to remember Peter 207 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: Rntt broadcasting from Bagdad with my hero the Gulf War. 208 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: That's why I went into journalism, watching how on top 209 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: of the building in Baghdad and nineteen ninety or something 210 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: like that. 211 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen nineteen, nineteen ninety one. I remember actually watching 212 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: Golf War footage at my when I got married that 213 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 2: My stag doer was like, we've all got CNN on, 214 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: we're watching the Golf War footage all that. But one 215 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: of the things then was that the cruise missiles they 216 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 2: did have crew GPS guidance, but their terminal guidance was 217 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: based on visual navigation, so you had images of the 218 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: terrain that they're flying over, images of the buildings so 219 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: that they could accurately navigate. Well, we've gone back to 220 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: that because GPS can so easily be jammed. We're now 221 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: using visual navigation for drones. If we're talking about autonomously 222 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 2: sending them to a location, they'll have visual navigation guidance, 223 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's interesting to see we've gone sort 224 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: of in a bit of a loop. The high precision 225 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: GPS guidance can be jammed, and so we need something else, 226 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: visual navigation. Back to the early nineties. 227 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: And it's really incredible. And in terms we talk about 228 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: dual use technologies, stuff that comes out of Silicon Valley, 229 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: great innovation can be used for consumer purposes but also 230 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: for military applications. And I think drones and UAVs really 231 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: epitomize this. And it's become so obvious to the public 232 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: as a result of the Ukraine War. Just how that 233 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: is so true. How something that could be a very 234 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: lightweight sort of quad copter drone that you would typically 235 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: buy to put up to take beautiful photos and maybe 236 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: a real estate agent would use to take footage of 237 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: a house because they're trying to sell it. Suddenly these 238 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: first person drones have become integral to a war effort, 239 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: responsible for more deaths than missiles and bombardments and other 240 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: things that they're doing on the battlefield. It's really quite incredible. 241 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: It must be really eye opening for you as someone 242 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: who understands this technology and seeing it for the first 243 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: time deployed on a massive scale those sides of the war. 244 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: It is, although it's not entirely surprising. So if you 245 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: look at the Middle East conflicts that preceded Ukraine, we 246 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: could see that this was starting to be an issue 247 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: with what ISIS was doing. So ISIS didn't have a 248 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: traditional air force, so it was starting to use drones, 249 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: be anything from your Dji Phantom twos, threes and fours 250 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: with a being able to drop a single munition to 251 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: actually having they had drone and manufacturing workshops that essentially 252 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: brought all their parts from the likes. I think it 253 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: was early express that they bought their parts from and 254 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: they could manufacture drones from the parts they purchased, and 255 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: so they were using those for ISR. They were using 256 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: them to drop munitions, not with the same effect as 257 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: one thousand pounds long, but certainly enough to suddenly mean 258 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: that the United States no longer owned the skies and 259 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: that now Western troops had to be worried about what 260 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: was in the sky above them as well. So we 261 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: went from that then Syria, there was a lot more 262 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: going on there than what we probably realized in this 263 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: part of the world. That's where Turkey was perfecting the 264 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: use of its TB two by Actar drone and the 265 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: Russians were perfecting the use of technology to detect drones, 266 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: particularly the djieroscope to detect DJI drones. So then after 267 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: that we go to the Niguno Carabac war between azer 268 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: Vaijan and Armenia, and the Turkish TB two drone was 269 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: used to great effect there to destroy armen and that's 270 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: what Ukraine used it for in the opening days of 271 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: the Ukraine War. And then Russia's experience with this djieroscope 272 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: and being able to pick up DJI consumer drones from 273 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: up to forty kilometers away, that was put into a 274 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: great effect by Russia in the opening days of the 275 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: Ukraine War as well. So as these drone enthusiasts said, well, 276 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: we've got drones we can fly, we can use them 277 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: to identify what Russia's doing, what China effectively did is 278 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: it disabled Ukraine's ability to use the auroscope system to 279 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: detect drones, but allowed Russia to keep using it. And 280 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: so there's plenty of videos out there circulating where someone 281 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: would fly a djidrone, it would come back and within 282 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: eight seconds there'd be an artillery round that was landing 283 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 2: within a very short distance of where that drone had landed. 284 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: So Russia had already perfected how to integrate drone detection 285 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: and targeting with artillery. 286 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: And there was the fascinating footage this sort of master 287 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: stroke often attacked by the Ukrainians on military planes that 288 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: Russia owned, and they managed to destroy a huge number 289 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: of planes, very expensive planes as well, And that really 290 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: was what was interesting about that was that wasn't a 291 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: long range drone attack because you would run out of 292 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: battery power going behind enemy lines into Russia. They were 293 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: able to somehow get those into the country, pike them 294 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: up in a truck, and deploy them from that truck. 295 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: So just the innovative things they're doing around the operation 296 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: and deployment of these drones as well, they're becoming sort 297 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: of quite deadly and used in really sort of ingenious ways. 298 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 2: Well they are, and I guess there's a couple of 299 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 2: other examples which would add to that as well. And 300 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: so if you look at the Hamas attacks on October seventh, 301 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 2: the opening attacks, there were a very modern combined arms operation. 302 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: You had cyber attacks, you had drones dropping munitions onto 303 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: cameras on the border posts to take those out, and 304 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: then you had their soldiers flying across the Israeli border 305 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 2: and paragliders and paramotors and things like that. So a 306 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: really modern form of combined arms operation. We think of 307 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: tanks and ground forces supported by air, supported by artillery 308 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: and that sort of thing. Their combined arms operation was very, 309 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: very modern, completely different from what we've seen there. And 310 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 2: then if we fast forward in that, an offshoot of 311 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: that conflict was the twelve day Israel Iran War, and 312 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 2: Israel had also had operatives inside Iran who had been 313 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: manufacturing small drones and they were able to deploy those 314 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 2: small drones from within Iran to disrupt some of the 315 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: air defense systems and the missile systems, so similar in 316 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 2: effect to Ukraine been able to assemble or deploy those 317 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: small drones within Russia, transport them a long distance on 318 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: the back of a truck. So it's a very different 319 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: but very brave way to use the small drones. You've 320 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,239 Speaker 2: got operatives that are behind enemy lines, enemy territory in 321 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: order to be able to do that. 322 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible and I think all of us watching 323 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: around the world other countries have really studied the tactics 324 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: that are being used there, the technologies that are being deployed, 325 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: the first person view ones, sort of a lot of 326 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: viral videos of those. But there are big drones that 327 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: are being used as well. There are companies now that 328 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: Dji is famous as a commercial drone maker, but there 329 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: are big companies in Europe tech ever. I think it's 330 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: called the Portuguese company. It's now valued at a billion dollars. 331 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: So that's just in recent years has become huge staric 332 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: in Germany. We've got SIOS here in New Zealand out 333 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: of Tawonger that's done a deal with the UK Defense Force. 334 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: So it's really led to this flurry of innovation around 335 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: the world. And interested in your views sort of looking 336 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: through the lens of New Zealand where we're probably more 337 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: an I part of the world, interested in keeping an 338 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: eye on our realm, exclusive economic zone, search and rescue, 339 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: deploying drones to look for lost sailors and that sort 340 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: of thing. What's your view on how we have interpreted 341 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: what's going on in places like Ukraine and started to 342 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: prepare for our own drone needs here. 343 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think the West is particularly well prepared anywhere, 344 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 2: And it's sort of like this year, we've suddenly waken 345 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: up and gone, oh my goodness, we need to do something. 346 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: And we've seen that in our defense Capability Plan, the 347 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: government's intent that we need to have long range strike drones. 348 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: But in reality the United States is actually not any 349 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 2: further well, they're a little further ahead than us, but 350 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: essentially they were doing the same thing. At the beginning 351 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 2: of the year. Pete Hesget was standing up and saying, 352 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: we've got this plan for American drone dominance because they 353 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: realized that they didn't have it. Now, just this morning, 354 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: I was reading an example of how much the US 355 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: does not have drone dominance. The announcement is that they 356 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: are now manufacturing a facsimile of the Iranian Shahib one 357 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: three six drone, which Russia is using to great effects 358 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 2: in Ukraine. Now the United States is going to be 359 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: manufacturing something that they've reversed engineered from that, and they're 360 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: going to be deploying it in the Middle East. So 361 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: it's not a US innovation that's leading the way. This 362 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: is an Iranian innovation and the US is copying that. 363 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 2: So I think this is symptomatic of actually the West 364 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: having been complacent in this area. We've got Turkey was 365 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: leading the way with its bi actor TB two. Iran 366 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: is clearly leading the way, whether it's series drones, and 367 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: we are playing catcher. But that's not a bad place 368 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: to be if you try to innovate fast is to 369 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: actually have to be playing catcher. 370 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: And it's great that we have at least one drone 371 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: company here that it has attracted international attention in the 372 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: form of Sios. It's won a number of awards this 373 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: year for its innovation. Anything you can tell us about 374 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: what makes that company particularly special in the drone space. 375 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: At the moment, I think it's really just can do attitude. 376 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: Here's this problem and we can do it. Listening to 377 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: your podcast you did with Peter Beck, it's actually not 378 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: too different. It's like, here's this space that's dominated by 379 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: some big companies that are doing things fairly inefficiently. Well, surely, 380 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: as kiwis, we can do something about this, and we 381 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: can make something happen until you win some big overseas 382 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: contract that's worth millions and millions of dollars. You're happy 383 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: to do that on a shoestring and rely as much 384 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: as you can on innovating to do things as efficiently 385 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 2: as possible. 386 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: I guess there's a sense that you know, this David 387 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: and Goliath war in Ukraine, that it's sort of drones 388 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: were able to level the playing field to some extent 389 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: in warfare, that you could have a small, less wealthy 390 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: nation and less resource nation that could really pack a 391 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: punch as a result of using these fpvs, this consumer 392 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: technology that's been repurposed, is that the reality of it, 393 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: I mean, this technology is now so accessible, as you've said, 394 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: around Russia, China, they really have led the way in 395 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: developing drones to some extents. It's I guess the nature 396 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: of the technology. It's so ubiquitous, the thresholds to entry 397 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: are so low that everyone has it now, so it's 398 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: not really as though any one country has a particular 399 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: advantage anymore with drones. 400 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: So certainly the ability to have a good isr intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance. 401 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: Good visual imagery is really important on the modern battlefaird 402 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: so you can see what the other side is doing. 403 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: But it's difficult to say how much being well resourced 404 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: actually necessarily makes it different. I think it's a very 405 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: conflict dependent. When we're looking at the Russia Ukrainian situation, 406 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: that looks like it's going to be a battle of 407 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: attrition that comes down to who can sustain the production 408 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: barms the longest, who can keep grinding away at that 409 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: And at the moment, both US administrations, the current US 410 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: administration and the previous US administration haven't really wanted Ukraine 411 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: to win. We've resourced them to the level where they 412 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: can keep going, but not that they can win. So 413 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: that's been an interesting issue in itself. But in terms 414 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 2: of how much do you need this technology? Does technology 415 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,959 Speaker 2: give you an edge? So I was looking at some 416 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: statistics yesterday. If we look at Afghanistan in Ukraine, So 417 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: Afghanistan has population of about forty one million, Ukraine has 418 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: a population of about thirty eight million, about the same 419 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 2: amount of people GDP per capita. Ukraine is sitting at 420 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: about sixteen thousand US dollars per capita. Ukraine's it about sorry, 421 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: Afghanistan's at about two thousand. So Ukraine is fabulously wealthy 422 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 2: compared to Afghanistan, and yet it would be would be 423 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: hard pressed to say that the Taliban didn't win the 424 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: conflict in Afghanistan. It had the ability to outlast the 425 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: United States with all its fabulously expensive technology. It's exquisitely 426 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 2: expensive drone systems. Our predator is the latest estimate for 427 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: Predator is about US thirty million dollars for system. And 428 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: this guy was full of predators and armed predators, and 429 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: yet the US lost. So it's not always a case 430 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: of resource. And so this is one of the issues 431 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: when we think about what lessons as the West taking 432 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: from Ukraine, what lessons are Western military is taking. We 433 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: have to spend a bit of time sitting through how 434 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 2: much is that conflict representative of where we might be 435 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 2: in future? How much are other conflicts representative? And if 436 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: we're thinking about where is New Zealand going to potentially deploy, 437 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: we would most likely be deploying, I would suggest in 438 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: the Western Pacific or into Southeast Asia. And at that 439 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: point you've got a lot of jungles, a lot of 440 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: terrain that's really hard to navigate. Perhaps the mountains of 441 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: Afghanistan are better, although they're not so much vegetation, Perhaps 442 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: they're a better analogy for what will encounter rather than 443 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 2: the flat planes of Ukraine. Although then when Ukraine it's 444 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: the wet season and you've got all the mud, an 445 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: arm I can't move through the mud. Something happens in 446 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: the jungles, right, So there's certainly it's not clear cut 447 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: that there's one set of lessons that we can can draw. 448 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can imagine we've got sort of limited firepower 449 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: in terms of air force fleet. It's not really decked 450 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: up for that since we sort of retired our jet fighters. 451 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: But we could have drones if we did have some 452 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: sort of rogue ship or something that was coming towards us, 453 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: drones would be an ideal sort of means of attacking them. 454 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: But in terms of like non state actors, criminal groups 455 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: that may co op this technology to do things in 456 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: New Zealand's terrorist attacks or whatever, are we preparing for 457 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing in terms of using technology to 458 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: jam drones to detect where they are. Is that becoming 459 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: a thing here in New Zealand. 460 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't until the Civil Aviation Act twenty twenty 461 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: through E that the legal powers actually existed for anyone 462 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: to do anything about it. That came into effect. Fourth 463 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: of April this year, so the legislation was passed and 464 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: it took two years for it to come into effect. 465 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: So there is the ability there now, but we don't 466 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: have processes in place to approve state agencies to do 467 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: anything much about it. Police automatically have an authorization under 468 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: the Civil Aviation Act to be able to develop processes 469 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: and take counter drone action. Other state agencies could, but 470 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: they have to be approved by the Civil Aviation for it. 471 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: And so interesting thing about that is that, to my knowledge, 472 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: no other state agencies have taken that step. Prisons are 473 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: a huge issue for contraband. Once upon a time, it 474 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: was putting a sock a tennis ball on the end 475 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: of a sock and stuffing some stuff in there and 476 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: swinging around, throwing it over the fence and having someone 477 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: pick it up. Now you can have a drone fly 478 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: at high speed across the prison at a preordained time, 479 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: have a release mechanism, and whatever the payloaders drops could 480 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: be drugs, could be cell phones, could be razor blades, 481 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: all of that sort of stuff. And so I don't 482 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: think New Zealand really has taken this seriously. The policy 483 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: people tend to be focused on this scenario of what 484 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: happens if there's a small drone that hits an airliner 485 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 2: and airliner crashes and then there's terrible loss of life. 486 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: In that ten years that drones have been a thing, 487 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: there's been like about four incidents worldwide where the report 488 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: has turned out that maybe it actually was a drone 489 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: and two of them actually hit the airliner and bounced 490 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: off it, and then when there's engineering inspection, it was like, oh, 491 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: not a problem. So this whole thing about recreational use 492 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: of drones being a problem for airline aircraft is not 493 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: really a thing for airline aircraft. You have to be 494 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: more concerned about someone who's gotten nefarious attend someone who's 495 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: decided they're going to replicate what they see overseas and 496 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: fly a first person view drone with explosives into an engine. 497 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: Something like that. It's certainly possible, particularly if it's on 498 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: the ground. Maybe even if it's coming into land or 499 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: take off. Something like that, that is possible. We haven't 500 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: actually seen that happen yet, but it's certainly a possibility 501 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 2: that could occur, and I'm not sure that we're ready 502 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: for it at all. One of the reports I've seen 503 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: is that innovations in the Ukraine are taking about twelve 504 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: months to get to Central America where the cartels are 505 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: in their adopting them with drone technology. Takes about another 506 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: six months for it to then get to Africa, to 507 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: the Sahel where there's various conflicts going on there. And 508 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: from there though, once it's made its way to the 509 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: cartels in Central America, if you've got transnational organized crime 510 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: groups that linked to us in some way, then you 511 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: should expect that we could have the same technology here. 512 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: It's obviously evolving rapidly, Andrew. If we look at the 513 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: commercial civilian use cases off it, the one that's been 514 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: promised for a long time has been piloted by Amazon 515 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: and others as drones an easy way to deliver a 516 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: product a pizza was the classic one. Domino's probably five 517 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: years ago at least now did a demo of that 518 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: in Auckland sort of went nowhere. Yeah, Amazon, as they said, 519 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: has been trialing it for a long time, and there 520 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: are some good startups that are finding good ways to 521 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: efficiently deliver packages with drones. How far away do you 522 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: think are we from that becoming mainstream? 523 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: I think a long one when it comes to pizza delivery. 524 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: I'm not a fan of the pizza delivery model, partly 525 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: because the technology isn't necessarily as folk proof as you'd 526 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: like it to be. For that, if you're flying into 527 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: an urban area with lots of people around, coming and 528 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: hovering over a place so that you can lower down 529 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: this pizza, you have to have it so that nothing 530 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: can go wrong. And I just don't trust software that much. 531 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: Once upon a time I was a computer programmer. I 532 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: just don't trust software to get that right all the time. 533 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: And you could have other systems that will fail. What 534 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: happens when one of these solid state motors has an issue? 535 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: What is the meantime between failure for these We don't know. 536 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: That model, though, would work for transporting small loads to 537 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: remote locations. There was a trial done. I can't remember 538 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: it was earlier this week. I think it was last week, 539 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: and Towering are taking a medical payload out to met 540 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: Cartna Island and then bringing something back. That's a perfect 541 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: use case for it. It's flying over a location where 542 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: there's not going to be hardly any people, and it 543 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: can do that journey quickly and efficiently. When you're coming 544 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: to an urban area. My response there usually is we'll 545 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: have people who have teenagers on the scooters and that's 546 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: going to be a faster and more efficient way to 547 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: transport these payloads. 548 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be surprised, I think if we have corridors 549 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: of drones constantly zipping around delivering you know, maybe in 550 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: certain cities where that works in Tokyo something like that, 551 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 1: but I doubt we'll see it here. But in terms 552 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: of where we get the productivity gains, where this can 553 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: really improve efficiency, I guess you know you've touched on 554 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: conservation and that, but agrotech is where it's at, really, 555 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: isn't it. We've got all this land we need to 556 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: monitor to keep eyes on. You can do that to 557 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: some extent with satellites, but so much more efficient to 558 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: just put a drone up to survey some land to 559 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: look at your crops or your pasture. With the sensor 560 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: technology now you can detect various gases and things like that. 561 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: So that's really I guess the sweet spot for us, 562 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: isn't it. 563 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there's still a lot of growth 564 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: to occur in that area. So one of the things 565 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: that we're seeing a lot of is people now using 566 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: the agricultural drones, particularly spraying. There's opportunities there to perform 567 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 2: tasks very efficiently with the spray drones. There you could 568 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: do with other means, but necessarily as well. Like one 569 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: of the great examples is using slag bait, applying slag 570 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: bait to a crop, to a market garden crop. Now, 571 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: if this happens in typically fairly wet weather when the 572 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 2: ground gets all muddy, and you could apply it by 573 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: tractor and then you're turning up to the MUDs and 574 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 2: you're probably destroying part of the crop, or you could 575 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 2: do it on foot, and that's really inefficient. It's cost 576 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: prohibitive to use a helicopter for that, and so this 577 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: is where drones can come in there and actually suddenly 578 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 2: that one plot of land becomes much more productive because 579 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 2: we're not having half the crop eaten by slaves. So 580 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: you've got something like that which is really good. Then 581 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: we can move on to thinking about some other innovations 582 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: that New Zealand's already achieved in pasture management. So one 583 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 2: of them is that on dairy farm you'll typically find 584 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: that they have consultants coming in working with them and 585 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 2: what you call a feed wedge and feed wedge says 586 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 2: looks at all your power and ranks them in order 587 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: of how much grass is in there, and so you know, 588 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 2: this one's got a lot of grass in there, that's 589 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: the best one that I should be putting the cows 590 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: and to get ximum productivity. And you're also checking to 591 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: make sure that you don't let the grass grow too 592 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 2: long and too much, because then its feed value goes down. 593 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: And so you can do all of that and the 594 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 2: technology that's traditionally been well, I guess traditionally now been 595 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: used for that is either walking across a paddock and 596 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 2: having a what they call a past gameter, which is 597 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: a physical device you put on top of the grass 598 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 2: and it tells you in that spot how thick is 599 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 2: the grass. And then that evolved into having something you 600 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: could tow behind your quad BikeE as you drove across 601 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: the pasture. And now the potential exists that we should 602 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: be able to get drones to be able to do that, 603 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 2: fly across a paddock and get for the entire paddic 604 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 2: what's actually the grass cover like. Now that requires a 605 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: bit of clever software and stuff from behind that, but 606 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: it certainly an approach that's the air and it could 607 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: yield significant increases in productivities. 608 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: If you look out say ten years, which is a 609 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: long time in the development of this technology, how are 610 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 1: we going to be using this? How will it evolve? 611 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: Do you think what will surprise us about how drones 612 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: are used in everyday life? 613 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the things that will surprise 614 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: us is that a lot of the things that have 615 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 2: been well, some of the things that have been talked 616 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: about the most won't have them. So like that whole 617 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: pizza delivery things, there's too many challenges involved in that 618 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: for it to be be something that's particularly viable. We 619 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 2: hear of the advanced air mobility, the flying car concept. 620 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: People aren't going to have a flying car that means 621 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: in their driveway. In order to have something that works, 622 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: it actually has to be quite large. So I've seen 623 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: two seater flying cars which take up entire with the 624 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 2: two lanes of the road. So yeah, you've got things 625 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: things like that. It's going to be think of those 626 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 2: as more being electric helicopters and whatever is. Maybe they 627 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 2: have a cost efficiency relative to traditional helicopters, But I 628 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: think what we're going to find is that some of 629 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 2: the existing uses will become more widespread. Infrastructure inspection. We're 630 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: finding that, say, in the power line side of things, 631 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: firms have been starting in the last couple of years 632 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 2: to move into power line inspections using drants, but they're 633 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: still limited by what the rules allow, and that's limited 634 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 2: in part by the technology as well. So you can't 635 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: just sit here in your office, press a button and 636 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: have a drone go and fly one hundreds of kilometers 637 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 2: along power lines to conduct an inspection. You've still got 638 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 2: to have linemen out there doing that. So I think 639 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: there's a space there that we'll see quite a change, 640 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 2: and we can then extrapolate that out to other sorts 641 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: of infrastructure, like maybe natural guest pipelines and things like that. 642 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 2: As we get tech that develops has more safeguards built 643 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 2: around it, it opens up more of those potential opportunities. 644 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: One of the other things I think we haven't done 645 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 2: well with is search and rescue. Drones would be ideal 646 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: for search and rescue, but by and large they haven't 647 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: been utilized to great effect there, and so I think 648 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 2: again there's an opportunity there for us to significantly improve 649 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: how they use. 650 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a hugely important area for us with our 651 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: mountainous regions, our national parks, and a vast ocean. You 652 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: know a lot of people unfortunately come to grief in 653 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: those areas. So instead of putting up a P eight 654 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: with a whole crew and hundreds of thousands of dollars 655 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: per hour, if we could put out drones to try 656 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: and get eyes on someone in trouble, that's got to 657 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: be hugely efficient. 658 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,479 Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, And when we think about some of those 659 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 2: sorts of search and rescue situations, so maybe we're thinking 660 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: of maybe around a coast where it's quite rocky, hard 661 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: to access, and maybe the winds and visibility aren't ideal 662 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 2: for a helicopter to be there either. We have to 663 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 2: move into a mindset where we're happy to lose the technology. 664 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 2: We don't want to lose a man helicopter with people 665 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 2: on board, absolutely not. But if we've got a fairly 666 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 2: sophisticated complex drone system maybe costs US one hundred thousand dollars, well, 667 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 2: actually the potential to lose that as opposed to a 668 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 2: couple of million dollars on helicopter, and then the lives 669 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 2: we might need to be recalibrating how we think about 670 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 2: some of the potential for loss of equipment. 671 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: And you've studied very closely our regulations, policies, you've done 672 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 1: a PhD in this space. Is there any one thing 673 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: that you would change now to steer drone development in 674 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: a positive direction in New Zealand. 675 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 2: Years And it doesn't actually require any rule changes at all. 676 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: So one of the issues we've had over the past 677 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 2: ten years is we've had this rule system that had 678 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 2: Part one to one. These are our standard operating rules 679 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 2: Part one O two. If you want to operate outside that, 680 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: you need to have certification from the Civil Aviation Authority, 681 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: and then there's been a lack of guidance as to 682 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: what would be acceptable. So I was listening to I 683 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 2: was at the Aerospace in New Zealand summer recently listening 684 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: to I think it was James Power from Dawn talking 685 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 2: about their experiences and how they had to invent everything 686 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 2: from scratch, including how they could satisfy the Civil Aviation Authority. Well, 687 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 2: what they were doing was safe, and so that's fine 688 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 2: as an organization that's trying to build something absolutely world 689 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: leading to do that, But then you've got subsequent developers 690 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 2: come along and you wanted to do something that's not 691 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: nearly as close to the edge of the envelope as 692 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 2: what Dawn's doing. But there's no guidance from CILIA as 693 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 2: to what would be acceptable. And what's happened is that 694 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: in the past the policy team from CILIA have gone, well, 695 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 2: this part one or two rule is infinitely flexible, so 696 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 2: if we provided clear guidelines, that would be limiting people's flexibility. 697 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 2: But what it's done is it's meant it's really hard 698 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 2: for people to know what's acceptable and what's not. So 699 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,240 Speaker 2: the one thing that I would change is to provide 700 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 2: some clear guidance from Civil Aviation Authority. This suite of 701 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: measures is something that we would accept. You may propose 702 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: something else that would also accept, but we can tell 703 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 2: you that this suite of measures here is given what 704 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 2: we've approved day and experience we've had, these are things 705 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 2: that would be acceptable that would make a big difference. 706 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: Well, that's good that practical advice, and they are revisiting 707 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 1: these regulations on a regular basis, so hopefully they'll take 708 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: that on board. 709 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 2: On there. I'd like to say that there has been 710 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 2: a change in the senior leadership at CIA just this 711 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 2: year and it's been an absolute breath of fresh air. 712 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 2: Got a lot of almost excitement to see what's going 713 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 2: to happen. It's been a complete culture change at the 714 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 2: top and we've certainly we've seen it now with the 715 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 2: engagement with industry, with what the Civil Aviation Authority is 716 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 2: looking to do. So yeah, pretty positive about where we 717 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 2: might go in that space. 718 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: Hey well Andrew, thanks so much. It's been a fascinating 719 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: look at drones, how they're developing, how they're being used, 720 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: drawing on your incredible expertise, So good luck with Phoenix 721 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: UAS it's obviously thriving business. Will put links up to 722 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: how people can find out more about you. And thanks 723 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: so much for coming on one of our last shows 724 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: of the Business of Tech for the year. 725 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 2: Great, thank you for having me on. It's been a 726 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 2: fantastic conversation. 727 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Business of Tech, 728 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: the penultimate episode for the year. Thanks so much to 729 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: doctor Andrew Shelley from Foenix UAS for sharing his insights 730 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 1: on drone warfare regulation and the rapidly evolving drone ecosystem 731 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: here in Tauroa, New Zealand. And thanks to you for 732 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: listening to the business of tech. Make sure you follow 733 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: the show in your podcast app, and we'll catch you 734 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: for the final episode of season three next Thursday. Right here, 735 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: I'll catch you then.