WEBVTT - Chris Bishop: New changes to the Fast-track Approvals Bill 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB. 0:00:10.881 --> 0:00:14.801 This afternoon, the government has changed or backed down, if 0:00:14.801 --> 0:00:17.161 you like, from their original decision for the Fast Track 0:00:17.201 --> 0:00:22.041 Approvals Bill. Previously that recommended giving three ministers sign off 0:00:22.321 --> 0:00:26.721 powers to approve major projects, but today the Infrastructure Minister 0:00:27.201 --> 0:00:30.201 announced the final say, we'll rest with an expert panel, 0:00:30.201 --> 0:00:34.081 which will include expertise and environmental matters, will include an 0:00:34.161 --> 0:00:38.281 EWE Authority representative only when required by treaty settlements, and 0:00:38.321 --> 0:00:42.081 will include MARI development into our Mari expertise in place 0:00:42.121 --> 0:00:44.601 of Marto Ranger Mari. It's all a bit dense actually. 0:00:44.881 --> 0:00:46.921 To help us get on top of it, we're joined 0:00:46.961 --> 0:00:50.401 by the Minister for Infrastructure. Chris Biship is with me now, Chris, 0:00:50.401 --> 0:00:51.481 Good afternoon. 0:00:51.681 --> 0:00:52.401 Good afternoon. 0:00:53.561 --> 0:00:55.401 I thought a lot of people have thought that the 0:00:55.401 --> 0:00:58.321 special power resting with those three ministers might make a 0:00:58.361 --> 0:01:00.921 real difference. But now we've got an expert panel deciding. 0:01:01.401 --> 0:01:04.721 As with the last Labor government's fast track process, have 0:01:04.801 --> 0:01:05.721 you just checked out? 0:01:07.481 --> 0:01:10.281 No, this is about listening to the feedback from submitters 0:01:10.561 --> 0:01:13.121 and also making the process a bit more clearer and 0:01:13.201 --> 0:01:17.161 simpler and more elegant. One would say. So. The Labor 0:01:17.161 --> 0:01:19.801 government's fast track process has actually worked pretty well. They've 0:01:20.121 --> 0:01:23.441 accelerated a range of different projects, most of which have 0:01:23.521 --> 0:01:27.121 been agreed to by the Pedel and we've essentially taken 0:01:27.161 --> 0:01:29.841 that architecture. But the key difference between their version and 0:01:29.881 --> 0:01:33.041 ours is at it's a one stop shop. So the 0:01:33.241 --> 0:01:35.881 fast track under Labor was just about the RMA, only 0:01:36.201 --> 0:01:40.161 ours is about all of the various permits and consents 0:01:40.161 --> 0:01:42.481 that you need to get on a bill project. So 0:01:42.641 --> 0:01:46.441 it's a much more ambitious regime. 0:01:46.841 --> 0:01:48.841 How confident are you you're going to be able to 0:01:49.801 --> 0:01:52.721 get the decisions made that you want because you are 0:01:52.761 --> 0:01:55.601 giving up a level of power of influence or power 0:01:55.641 --> 0:01:58.641 over it by the ministers no longer having the final say. 0:01:59.601 --> 0:02:01.481 Yeah, it's about getting the balance right and finding the 0:02:01.481 --> 0:02:04.441 sweet spot. So ministers or a minister the Minister for 0:02:04.441 --> 0:02:08.921 Infrastructure still have the power to essentially accept projects upon 0:02:08.961 --> 0:02:12.281 application and send them to the expert panel, and then 0:02:12.281 --> 0:02:14.321 the panel will make the final decision and they'll have 0:02:14.361 --> 0:02:18.121 to balance up the environmental consideration for the economic considerations, 0:02:18.121 --> 0:02:20.921 apply the conditions and then ultimately if they decide that 0:02:21.001 --> 0:02:24.961 it's just simply not a goer they will make that decision. 0:02:25.241 --> 0:02:29.241 So look, I think it's a good balance wreck that 0:02:29.401 --> 0:02:32.281 listens to the feedback coming from submissions that ministers had 0:02:32.761 --> 0:02:35.641 too much power, but also sends a very clear message 0:02:35.681 --> 0:02:37.641 that we want to get on with development, we want 0:02:37.681 --> 0:02:40.521 to build houses, we want to build renewable energy, and 0:02:40.561 --> 0:02:42.601 all of the things that he's on needs to address 0:02:42.681 --> 0:02:44.041 the various deathsts we've got. 0:02:44.161 --> 0:02:46.681 Should we really be afraid of ministers having power, because 0:02:46.721 --> 0:02:48.201 when you look at the power that, for instance, the 0:02:48.241 --> 0:02:52.241 Minister of Immigration has over people's futures, what's wrong with 0:02:52.281 --> 0:02:55.441 the ministers actually who have been elected having the power 0:02:55.441 --> 0:02:56.721 to make those decisions. 0:02:57.561 --> 0:02:59.601 Well, that is a good point. I mean, the Minister 0:02:59.641 --> 0:03:03.321 for the Environment, through the RMA already has big, big powers, 0:03:03.361 --> 0:03:06.161 you know, to call in projects, to direct councils, to 0:03:06.201 --> 0:03:09.641 make various different plan changes and things like that. One 0:03:09.681 --> 0:03:12.001 of the ironies of the whole thing is that, as 0:03:12.041 --> 0:03:15.041 Minister for r and a reform in another wearing another hat, 0:03:15.641 --> 0:03:19.521 I signed off on Wellington's district plan changes, which you know, 0:03:19.801 --> 0:03:22.481 most most people, not everyone, but most people seem to 0:03:22.521 --> 0:03:24.721 think was really good that I had that power, and 0:03:24.801 --> 0:03:27.201 it was good that I was able to override the 0:03:27.241 --> 0:03:30.801 decision of an independent hearings panel and then essentially agree 0:03:30.841 --> 0:03:33.361 with the Council. So these things do go and swings 0:03:33.481 --> 0:03:36.001 roundabouts a bit. But as I say, what we're doing 0:03:36.081 --> 0:03:39.201 is to keep it simple. The Minister for Infrastructure rather 0:03:39.241 --> 0:03:42.081 than the three one minister. The Minister instructures me at 0:03:42.081 --> 0:03:44.161 the moment you know, hopefully we will be for a while. 0:03:44.441 --> 0:03:46.961 Minister for Infrastructure will pick the projects, seeing them to 0:03:46.961 --> 0:03:48.841 the panel, and the panel will have the final sign off. 0:03:48.841 --> 0:03:50.121 And I think that's a good balance. 0:03:50.361 --> 0:03:52.281 Is that really the key if you want people to 0:03:52.321 --> 0:03:54.441 take it away, it's looked like we're giving the we've 0:03:54.481 --> 0:03:56.681 given the final stade of this panel, but I have 0:03:56.721 --> 0:03:58.961 the power. I'm basically look you like the sort of 0:03:59.401 --> 0:04:02.841 taking everyone's betting, slips and fielding. That's probably the wrong analogy, 0:04:02.881 --> 0:04:06.601 but you get the gist. That's the wrong analogy totally. 0:04:06.601 --> 0:04:07.921 I just made that up. But you know what I mean. 0:04:07.961 --> 0:04:10.001 You are acting as a funnel, as a conduit. Like 0:04:10.041 --> 0:04:12.401 if you've got a project, my ministry will look at 0:04:12.441 --> 0:04:14.641 it and if I like it, bang there it goes 0:04:14.721 --> 0:04:16.161 to the committee. 0:04:16.961 --> 0:04:19.801 That is essentially how it will work. Yes, and under 0:04:19.881 --> 0:04:21.681 law I'll have to take into account a range of 0:04:22.361 --> 0:04:24.961 things to look at when we make the decision or 0:04:25.001 --> 0:04:27.561 I make the decision to send it off to a panel. 0:04:28.321 --> 0:04:30.521 But look, the intention of the legislation is to get 0:04:30.561 --> 0:04:34.121 on was nationally and regionally significant projects. And we also 0:04:34.161 --> 0:04:37.121 released today the list of applicants that have come through 0:04:37.161 --> 0:04:40.961 so far. From a project point of view, forty percent 0:04:41.001 --> 0:04:45.521 of them are housing, urban development twenty four percent or infrastructure, 0:04:46.081 --> 0:04:49.521 eighteen percent are renewable energy. There's some primary industry projects 0:04:49.561 --> 0:04:52.041 as well, so three hundred and eighty four applications already. 0:04:52.121 --> 0:04:55.241 I mean, this is the evidence of our planning laws 0:04:55.241 --> 0:04:58.001 and stuff, is that people want to use SASTRAK to 0:04:58.001 --> 0:04:59.321 get around them because they want to get on and 0:04:59.361 --> 0:05:01.161 build things in this country. And that's a good thing. 0:05:01.441 --> 0:05:04.481 Who were the submitters or what was the what were 0:05:04.521 --> 0:05:06.361 the submission that you really thought, oh, you know, you've 0:05:06.361 --> 0:05:08.041 got a good point, will make a couple of changes. 0:05:09.681 --> 0:05:13.201 One of the it's not any particular individual submission, but 0:05:13.241 --> 0:05:16.361 the a broad theme coming through the submissions was look, 0:05:16.441 --> 0:05:18.521 you've gone a bit too far here. You should let 0:05:18.801 --> 0:05:21.241 leave it over to the panel to make the final call. 0:05:22.161 --> 0:05:24.001 And in the end we said, okay, well, that's there 0:05:24.041 --> 0:05:27.521 some legitimate critiques there, and it's actually the way the 0:05:27.561 --> 0:05:30.081 Labor fast Track works and it's worked pretty well. So 0:05:30.481 --> 0:05:34.761 we've agreed with that. And you know, so it was 0:05:34.801 --> 0:05:37.561 more than the individual submission, but you know, broad thematics 0:05:37.561 --> 0:05:39.481 coming through to the Select Committee. 0:05:40.201 --> 0:05:41.601 Bolly, you must be loving the number of times you 0:05:41.641 --> 0:05:43.801 having to go credit to labor. But you know, anyway, 0:05:43.841 --> 0:05:47.281 good on you. Now the time frames for you know 0:05:47.441 --> 0:05:49.561 what the situation that we've got, Now, how much quicker 0:05:49.561 --> 0:05:52.041 are we really going to see projects come to fruition? 0:05:53.361 --> 0:05:55.401 Oh? I think it will speed things up. So what 0:05:55.481 --> 0:05:57.481 happens now is we've had three hundred and forty three 0:05:57.521 --> 0:06:00.881 and eighty four applications. I should say, we'll be considering 0:06:01.481 --> 0:06:03.601 those projects to be lifted in the bill in the 0:06:03.641 --> 0:06:05.961 coming weeks and months. We want to get the bill 0:06:06.041 --> 0:06:08.641 into law by the end of the year. The projects 0:06:08.681 --> 0:06:10.521 that we select to be listed in the bill will 0:06:10.521 --> 0:06:13.841 then go off to the panels automatically, and so we 0:06:13.841 --> 0:06:16.041 haven't made a final call on exactly how many and 0:06:16.081 --> 0:06:18.801 which ones I hate into it. We're doing that over 0:06:18.801 --> 0:06:21.321 the next few weeks and then those projects will be 0:06:21.481 --> 0:06:25.241 towards the panel and you know, many, many projects I 0:06:25.281 --> 0:06:28.441 hope will be consented and permitted next year, and that 0:06:28.521 --> 0:06:30.841 will give us a really nice pipeline of projects to 0:06:31.481 --> 0:06:34.441 start getting on with and start building. You know, as 0:06:34.441 --> 0:06:36.161 I've been saying to a bunch of people, you know, 0:06:36.201 --> 0:06:38.641 we have an infrastructure crisis in this country. We've got 0:06:38.641 --> 0:06:40.361 a deficit of about one hundred billion bucks. We need 0:06:40.401 --> 0:06:42.601 to get on and build things. We have a housing crisis. 0:06:42.601 --> 0:06:44.241 You know, some of the highest house prices in the 0:06:44.281 --> 0:06:46.361 developed world, you know, high rents. We need to get 0:06:46.401 --> 0:06:48.321 on and build more houses. And we've got very ambitious 0:06:48.321 --> 0:06:50.161 climate goals. And you know, we have a need to 0:06:50.241 --> 0:06:53.041 energy chordage in this country. You know, we've shortage of 0:06:53.041 --> 0:06:55.921 gas and a shortage of renewables to get on and 0:06:56.401 --> 0:06:58.321 provide powers. So we do need to get on and 0:06:58.321 --> 0:07:00.401 build a few things. And it's just become too hard 0:07:00.441 --> 0:07:02.081 in this country to do that. And so that's what 0:07:02.121 --> 0:07:03.081 fast Track is all about. 0:07:03.241 --> 0:07:07.441 Okay, So the panel, it's I mean, everything's politics, isn't it. 0:07:07.481 --> 0:07:09.321 In people, how do you choose who's going to be 0:07:09.401 --> 0:07:09.881 on the panel? 0:07:11.001 --> 0:07:12.961 Oh, so that the panels work in the same way 0:07:13.001 --> 0:07:15.161 that the panels under the existing fast Track work, which 0:07:15.241 --> 0:07:17.921 is that they are a range of legal experts and 0:07:18.001 --> 0:07:22.121 they have to have environmental expertise. There has to be 0:07:22.161 --> 0:07:25.161 some environmental expertise on the panel. There has to be 0:07:25.881 --> 0:07:29.241 mari developments in Tao Maori on the panel as well, 0:07:29.641 --> 0:07:32.521 and then economic expertise as well, and then there's essentially 0:07:32.601 --> 0:07:36.001 legal experts who go through that very technical process of 0:07:36.001 --> 0:07:40.721 applying the conditions and the consent conditions that you need 0:07:40.761 --> 0:07:45.481 for a project. You long long lists of conditions. That's 0:07:45.481 --> 0:07:48.761 a very technical process and it's essentially a legal process. 0:07:48.921 --> 0:07:51.041 So it's not so substantive where they might look at 0:07:51.041 --> 0:07:52.401 it something or we don't like the look of this 0:07:52.641 --> 0:07:55.521 for maybe some other reasons which you wouldn't have anticipated. 0:07:57.081 --> 0:08:00.081 No, I mean, the fact that the government or the 0:08:00.081 --> 0:08:02.521 Minister of Infrastructure has sent the project to a panel 0:08:02.561 --> 0:08:04.881 means that the government is interested in fast tracking it, 0:08:05.121 --> 0:08:08.081 getting it consented and getting it permitted. The role of 0:08:08.121 --> 0:08:10.961 the panel will be to go through and apply the 0:08:11.001 --> 0:08:15.081 conditions upon which the project will happen. But as I say, 0:08:15.161 --> 0:08:19.321 we've also given the final decision making authority to the panel. 0:08:19.401 --> 0:08:22.001 So if the panel goes through and says look we 0:08:22.041 --> 0:08:23.601 want to do this, we want to do this condition 0:08:23.721 --> 0:08:26.601 this permit, but then they actually decide, look, actually it's 0:08:26.641 --> 0:08:29.681 impossible to do the impact on the environment is so great, 0:08:30.681 --> 0:08:32.801 we don't think the project should happen. That will be 0:08:33.001 --> 0:08:35.881 their decision rather than the decision of ministers. What if 0:08:35.921 --> 0:08:39.881 you don't like it, Well, that's the power that we 0:08:40.041 --> 0:08:42.321 have decided to give up and give it to the 0:08:42.361 --> 0:08:46.321 panel to make that decision. But you know, we are 0:08:46.321 --> 0:08:50.681 sending a very clear message through the legislative design and 0:08:50.721 --> 0:08:54.521 the architecture of the legislation that we want projects to 0:08:54.561 --> 0:08:57.801 take place. The purpose statement and the legislation is going 0:08:57.841 --> 0:09:00.481 to be very important, and the purpose statement makes it 0:09:00.521 --> 0:09:02.761 clear that the intent of the legislation is to get 0:09:02.761 --> 0:09:06.761 on and build and get consented and originally slicing projects. 0:09:06.841 --> 0:09:08.761 Okay, if I was going to be politically throughout it, 0:09:08.801 --> 0:09:10.561 I'd say, oh, look, you're just going to have this 0:09:10.561 --> 0:09:12.881 panel set up to rubber stamp things, because once bishop 0:09:12.921 --> 0:09:14.041 says he loves it, let's go. 0:09:15.961 --> 0:09:18.681 I don't think that's fair. It's about finding the sweet 0:09:18.681 --> 0:09:22.441 spot between ministers making it clear they want things built 0:09:22.441 --> 0:09:27.001 and they want things consented, but also allowing a allowing 0:09:27.041 --> 0:09:29.361 a panel to turn something down if it has such 0:09:29.361 --> 0:09:32.721 a deleterious or negative impact on the environment, or for 0:09:32.761 --> 0:09:34.641 a range of other reasons. So it's about finding that 0:09:34.681 --> 0:09:37.281 sweet spot. The feed that we had so far is 0:09:37.321 --> 0:09:39.401 that we hadn't got the balance right. I think we've 0:09:39.401 --> 0:09:41.001 made some changes to get that balance right. 0:09:41.121 --> 0:09:44.241 Okay, So you mentioned those three hundred and eighty four projects. 0:09:44.481 --> 0:09:46.121 How many are we going to get off the out 0:09:46.161 --> 0:09:48.561 of the blocks and in what sort of time frame 0:09:48.761 --> 0:09:50.321 first cab off the ranks so to speak. 0:09:51.241 --> 0:09:53.921 Well, well, it's hard to say on that right now. 0:09:54.361 --> 0:09:57.961 We're just working our way through the We've received an 0:09:58.001 --> 0:10:00.921 independent report from the advisory group on that, we're receiving 0:10:01.401 --> 0:10:03.361 further advice on it. We're just working our way through that. 0:10:04.041 --> 0:10:05.641 So we will make decisions on that in the next 0:10:05.641 --> 0:10:09.601 few weeks a couple of months. And attached that list 0:10:09.601 --> 0:10:11.841 to the legislation and the intention is to pass from 0:10:12.121 --> 0:10:13.961 the legislation into law by the end of the year. 0:10:14.001 --> 0:10:16.121 So yeah, next few months. 0:10:16.161 --> 0:10:18.841 Sorry, one just last little question. How much time difference 0:10:18.921 --> 0:10:21.201 do you think Plan A being the plan you've just 0:10:21.241 --> 0:10:24.841 abandoned into Plan B where you got the expert panel, 0:10:24.881 --> 0:10:29.081 but it's been funneled through the MISS infrastructure. What time difference. 0:10:29.361 --> 0:10:32.601 Have you been advised that this will make to your plans? 0:10:34.161 --> 0:10:37.281 Oh, it doesn't slow down fast track. It doesn't slow 0:10:37.321 --> 0:10:40.881 down the fast track projects. It just just changes the 0:10:41.841 --> 0:10:44.441 changes the way it works basically, So it's no intention 0:10:44.521 --> 0:10:46.681 to slow down. This is just as I say it's about. 0:10:46.761 --> 0:10:49.481 We've always said we're open to sensible changes either. You 0:10:49.521 --> 0:10:51.401 know some of the sensible changes we've adopted, but it 0:10:51.401 --> 0:10:52.841 won't slow down the projects. 0:10:52.881 --> 0:10:55.801 Excellent. Look, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks 0:10:55.801 --> 0:10:59.321 so much. Thanks matche Yes, that's Chris Bishop miss for Infrastructure. 0:11:00.641 --> 0:11:02.401 We text your feedback we're on. Did you talk back 0:11:02.441 --> 0:11:05.001 on this after half past? I don't mind saying I 0:11:05.601 --> 0:11:08.881 did think when I was writing my questions now for this, 0:11:08.881 --> 0:11:10.601 because this press release has only been out for about 0:11:10.601 --> 0:11:13.001 an hour and a bit, that it did look like 0:11:13.041 --> 0:11:16.281 a checking out. But the way he's described it, I 0:11:16.881 --> 0:11:19.801 would say I'm reasonably assuaged. If icking use that rule 0:11:20.361 --> 0:11:22.441 that expression. What do you make of it? Do you 0:11:22.441 --> 0:11:24.401 think that this is the government backing down or is 0:11:24.401 --> 0:11:27.041 it the government listening to some sensible advice. It's going 0:11:27.121 --> 0:11:28.761 to be funneled. Everything's going to be funneled through the 0:11:28.761 --> 0:11:32.281 Minister for Infrastructure, tying in his colleagues were necessary when 0:11:32.321 --> 0:11:35.161 it comes to transport or environment, et cetera. And then 0:11:35.401 --> 0:11:38.641 the final say is with an independent panel. Not so much. 0:11:39.041 --> 0:11:40.721 I'm not going to use the reuord Ruber stamping actually, 0:11:40.721 --> 0:11:43.201 but to go through the legal processes and check that 0:11:43.281 --> 0:11:45.001 everything stacks up, and then away we go. 0:11:45.801 --> 0:11:48.601 For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news 0:11:48.641 --> 0:11:52.281 Talks'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast 0:11:52.361 --> 0:11:53.281 on iHeartRadio.