1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: Now, as we predicted on this show, the government's done 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: a u turn on its plan to ban credit card charges. 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: The Minister Scott Simpson is still saying he hopes it 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: will be enforced by May, but the factor is the 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: bill is stalled in Parliament. It would have stopped retailers 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: charging for credit, debit and contactless payments. Jessica Walker is 7 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: Consumer New Zealand's campaign manager. Hi, Jessica, Hey, that, I mean, 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: how did do you think this sounds? 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: Where we are a bit concerned. To be honest, we're 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: still hopeful. It's interesting that Minister Simpson is still talking 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: about his hope that this will still come to pass 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: in May, so the bund taking effect from then. But 13 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: then obviously hearing other murmurs from the likes of Winston 14 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 2: Peters and David Seymour. It's not looking great well. 15 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: I mean if it, I mean, he's obviously dreaming. If 16 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: something does happen in May, it would have to be 17 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: best case scenario. I would have thought a compromise position, right, 18 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: so something along the lines of, yes, retailers, there can 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: be a ban on retailers or something. If there, I 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: don't know, there would have to be an alternative, some 21 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: sort of a compromise. What would a compromise look like 22 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: that you'd be happy about? 23 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: From our perspective, it needs regulation. So at the moment 24 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: there are guidelines, we say the guidelines aren't working because 25 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: too many search charges are excessive or just not disclosed 26 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: or unavoidable. So there would need to be some really 27 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: firm caps in place to stop consumers being ripped off, 28 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: and there would need to be alternative payment methods so 29 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: that people have a real way to avoid that. Because 30 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: right now people say, oh, I could just pay cash 31 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: or I could just pay f POS. Our research shows 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 2: that actually that's not always the case. In fact, for 33 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: in ten New Zealander, say they think that they have 34 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: been hit with a surcharge that they couldn't get around 35 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: there was no fee free option, and. 36 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: So how does that even happen? 37 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: So it might be a business that doesn't take cash. 38 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: We've even heard of people having to pay surcharges when 39 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 2: they pay on f POS cards. Now that should never happen. 40 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: So there would ever come across that. Have you come 41 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: across there? 42 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: Not me personally, but we have we have had examples 43 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: of it, and more than once into we've got a 44 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: playfair in box that we monitor what people tell us 45 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: about their experiences, so we haven't verified, but we've definitely heard. 46 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: I just think that sounds like nonsense. I mean, look, 47 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: I think the most egregious cases of this, Jessica, are 48 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: we you absolutely like if you're paying a twenty five 49 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: percent surcharge, which again I've never come across, but that 50 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: would be outrageous. But would the most egregious cases not be? 51 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: For example, will you go to pay your parking at 52 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: a parking meter and it's a fifty cents charge when 53 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: you're only paying for a couple of bucks, and that's ridiculous. 54 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: Those flat fees are the ones that seem to hit 55 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: them most people. But you know, on a weekly basis, 56 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: we're getting complaints of surcharges well above two and a 57 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: half percent, so that the highest one so far this 58 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 2: month has been a three point nine percent. So these 59 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: are out there and there happening more frequently than you 60 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: would think. 61 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: Hasn't that comments quis kept it? 62 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: No, So it's supposed to reflect the cost of the business. 63 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: Our argument has been all along is that's not what's happening, 64 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 2: and a lot of places it is, but not everywhere, 65 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: and so if there is a cap put in place, 66 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: which we would be on board with, but it would 67 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: need to be properly policed otherwise this message just going 68 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: to continue. 69 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: Well, what was it that the Commerce Commission head? What 70 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: was the move that they'd made read search charges if 71 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't a KEP. 72 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: So there's guidelines. So the guidelines are that the cost 73 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: should reflect what it costs the business, that it needs 74 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: to be transparent, so at the point of payment, you 75 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: need to see what it's going to cost you and 76 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: it should be avoidable. So this is the Commerce Commission's guidelines. Okay, 77 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: Now our argument is that they're not working. 78 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: Okay, The thing about it is sure, it's not fair 79 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: to have to pay the search charges, but nor is 80 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: it fear for us to lump that messive cost on 81 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: small retailers around this country. 82 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: Is it? We acknowledge this. We know it's hard for 83 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: small businesses, it's hard for consumers. I think a key 84 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: piece of information that's missing is that from December last year, 85 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: cost of businesses were reduced by ninety million dollars because 86 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: of changes to the way that interchange fee works. And 87 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: so we haven't heard of surcharges coming down. If anything, 88 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: we know that people are still being caught out by 89 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: these excessive and undisclosed surcharges. So I think that yes, 90 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: some businesses might need to put the cost up to enable, 91 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: you know, to be able to keep going. But in 92 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: our eyes, those cost increases should be in the realm 93 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: of about one to one and a half percent if 94 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: they are just recouping and covering their costs, and if 95 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: their costs them more than that than our advice is 96 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: the businesses should also be shopping around for a better deal. 97 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, fad point and as always, Jessica really appreciate you 98 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: talking to us. It's Jis a Walker, consumer New Zealand's 99 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: campaign manager. For more from Hither Duplessylan Drive, listen live 100 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or 101 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.