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Speaker 1: Governmently by the Prime Minister on the show yesterday dug

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Speaker 1: themselves a little bit of a whole overlite documents around

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Speaker 1: the military style academies. The government's running to straighten out

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Speaker 1: these young criminals. Now the papers showed that the academy

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Speaker 1: should be able to use force. The Prime Minister city

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Speaker 1: didn't know, wasn't briefed, despite the fact they had gone

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Speaker 1: before cabinet. Apparently now the minister in charge of all

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Speaker 1: of this is Karen Shaw, and she as well us. Karen,

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Speaker 1: very good morning to you. Yesterday the Herald were claiming

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Speaker 1: you weren't wanting to answer questions on that one. Is

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Speaker 1: that true and why weren't you willing to answer questions?

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Speaker 2: It tends to be very cautious about speaking to a

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Speaker 2: document that I know nothing about. I haven't seen and

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Speaker 2: don't know what it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, is that still the case, rud you get hold

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Speaker 1: of the document yesterday.

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Speaker 3: There are certain things also that I follow as well,

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Speaker 3: and that would be cabinet procedure, and I'm just very

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Speaker 3: cautious about speaking about decisions that still have things to

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Speaker 3: be considered.

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Speaker 1: Have you still not spoken to the Prime Minister.

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Speaker 2: About I haven't actually sat down and had an individual

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Speaker 2: conversation with the promise and no, I haven't.

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Speaker 1: Without giving anything away as to what's going on in cabinet,

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Speaker 1: has it gone before cabinet?

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Speaker 2: The decisions that have gone before cabinet are the ones

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Speaker 2: that are already public and the ones that I spoke

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Speaker 2: about in Question Time yesterday, where we have made the

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Speaker 2: decisions around whether force can be used in other situations

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Speaker 2: rather than just in the detention residence.

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Speaker 1: Can force be used.

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Speaker 2: Yes, force can be used, but only under very strict

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Speaker 2: conditions and we have regulations to protect that.

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Speaker 1: Why when force can be used? Did the Prime Minister

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Speaker 1: not know that?

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Speaker 2: I'm sure the premise that would know that when you're

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Speaker 2: in detention that you can be restrained in special circumstances.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know that, he said he didn't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I I wouldn't double to comment to that.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, How does cabinet work work? Once again, without giving

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Speaker 1: it away, When something comes before cabinet, this is very

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Speaker 1: important part of the cabinet process. When it comes before

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Speaker 1: is it actually discussed openly? And if you're in the room,

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Speaker 1: are you cognizant of what is being agreed to and discussed?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So that that would be their expectation that everybody,

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Speaker 2: if there are any questions, you can ask questions for

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Speaker 2: any paper or for anything that you're putting forward, but

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Speaker 2: it also goes out for concerts, also reconsult with each other.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, having had it before cabinet and having discussed

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Speaker 1: it in any questions to be asked were asked, how

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Speaker 1: come the Prime Minister doesn't know what's going on?

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Speaker 2: I was I can't actually speak to the process of

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Speaker 2: anything particular. I'm just talking to the process in general,

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Speaker 2: so that that comment I made was not what happened

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Speaker 2: in particular to anything, all right, to make sure that

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Speaker 2: you understand that.

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Speaker 1: If that's fine. If I had asked you yesterday as

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Speaker 1: to whether the government had agreed that force will be

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Speaker 1: used in these military camps, would you have been able

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Speaker 1: to answer that question or not.

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Speaker 2: This is my portfolio and my paper, so I yes,

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Speaker 2: I would have been able to answer that to.

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Speaker 1: You, And as of yesterday you would have been able

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Speaker 1: to say, yes, you will be using force.

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Speaker 2: I would be saying we would use restraints if a

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Speaker 2: child that was going to abscond or was going to

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Speaker 2: hurt themselves and hurt somebody else that already currently happens

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Speaker 2: with certain facilities.

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Speaker 1: Right, So to get to and there's two parts to this,

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Speaker 1: I guess one is whether you think that that's acceptable

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Speaker 1: or not in people like the Greens and the Marry

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Speaker 1: Party don't. But I suspect that most New Zealanders would

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Speaker 1: be on your side in that sense. But it's a

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Speaker 1: very sensitive subject, a subject that you'll be apologizing for

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Speaker 1: next Tuesday on different matters. Is why wasn't the government

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Speaker 1: cognizant and sensitive enough to understand that that is the

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Speaker 1: situation and therefore be upfront and fully knowledgeable about what

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Speaker 1: they are about to do.

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Speaker 2: This is this is not making changes to the fact

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Speaker 2: that this can already currently happen. And all I am

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Speaker 2: all the changes I made were to make it that is,

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Speaker 2: the outside of a setting of the secure residents like

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Speaker 2: on a field trip or out on an overnight camping trip,

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Speaker 2: that we have the ability to keep them safe and

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Speaker 2: keep our staff safe. So yes, there is a report

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Speaker 2: into the abusing care and safe based places. But the

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Speaker 2: fact of the matter is is if we are going

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Speaker 2: to give these kids a shot, if we are going

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Speaker 2: to give these young people a chance, we have to

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Speaker 2: have their to actually put a little bit of trust

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Speaker 2: in them and be able to do things outside of

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Speaker 2: the residents.

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Speaker 3: But we also have to keep ourselves safe.

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Speaker 2: While doing that.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your time very much, Karen Shaw, the Children's Minister.

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Speaker 3: For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 3: news talks.

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Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast

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Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.