Speaker 1: Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The
Speaker 1: Hikoy that started in Cape Rianga has made its way
Speaker 1: down the country of the last week and arrives in
Speaker 1: Wellington today. While many have taken part in various stages
Speaker 1: of the Hikoy, tens of thousands of people are expected
Speaker 1: outside the Beehive today as a protest against the government's
Speaker 1: policies impacting Malti, including the Treaty Principal's Bill. Tipazi Maldi
Speaker 1: have been leading the pushback against the government, notably with
Speaker 1: a viral hukka in Parliament during the bill's first reading
Speaker 1: that has garnered global attention. The party's co leader, Debbie
Speaker 1: Nadewa Paka, joins us today on the Front Page to
Speaker 1: discuss the hiccu, that viral hakka and why they are
Speaker 1: fighting back so strongly against this coalition government. So, Dabbie,
Speaker 1: the Hikoy is set to reach Parliament today. How has
Speaker 1: it gone so far?
Speaker 2: Amazing?
Speaker 3: So Lavely and I were at the very beginning. I
Speaker 3: feel like it's seven or eight days ago and it's
Speaker 3: just continued. I wasn't there at Tomaki Mikado, but have
Speaker 3: been back in there again.
Speaker 2: In the last three days and just amazing spirit.
Speaker 3: A lot of fabulous discipline, a lot of kia coming,
Speaker 3: particularly this last week we arrived and put it all
Speaker 3: last night.
Speaker 2: There's just an overwhelming sense.
Speaker 3: Of support and physical support of Pako of Tana Titi
Speaker 3: and I think, you know that's very marshall, very humbling,
Speaker 3: but again also very very strong in the messaging against
Speaker 3: this bill and it's certainly against the government's agreement on it.
Speaker 1: Asides from some traffic congestion, there doesn't seem to have
Speaker 1: been any incidents along the way. It's been pretty peaceful.
Speaker 1: But around thirty thousand people are expected at Parliament today,
Speaker 1: which is actually bigger than the twenty twenty two protests.
Speaker 1: Do you think the hikoy will remain peaceful with that
Speaker 1: many people involved.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think those numbers will probably go even higher.
Speaker 3: And I kept looking at some of the numbers we
Speaker 3: had and Puppy Uia and Parmesan North and Title Bullivian
Speaker 3: and put it all last night. Look, I think what's
Speaker 3: really important is the passive and the passive way of
Speaker 3: doing hikoy and activism is very mildy, and then the
Speaker 3: only incident I saw was two sisters were fighting over
Speaker 3: who was going to be on the left or the
Speaker 3: right hand side of a selfie with me. They are
Speaker 3: too focused on what the messaging needs to be, and
Speaker 3: unity has been a keyword that has come down from
Speaker 3: our King, who we lost recently, from many of those
Speaker 3: at the Hickoy nineteen seventy five, and that's continued to
Speaker 3: be the way that we mobilize. So now I don't
Speaker 3: expect any real incidents other than getting the message across
Speaker 3: and again continue on that beautiful spirit of unity.
Speaker 1: I actually had a friend in Australia message me at
Speaker 1: the weekend asking if I could explain to her in
Speaker 1: the simplest way possible, like I was talking to a
Speaker 1: five year old, what happened in parliament? How would you
Speaker 1: explain the Treaty and the Principal's Bill to my friend?
Speaker 3: I think what's happened in Parliament and what this bell
Speaker 3: represents is wiping away the existence and the rights that
Speaker 3: the indigenous peoples of Old t Edoor had before colonization.
Speaker 3: We were the protection to always remember Mary artangua defen
Speaker 3: of Altor and the significance. We have as Mary to
Speaker 3: look after everyone that comes in it, but not at
Speaker 3: the cost of being Mary. I think that's probably the
Speaker 3: most simplest way. It's harmful. It hurts not to feel valued.
Speaker 3: It really hurts to have seen that we would trade
Speaker 3: it off to become part of a coalition agreement.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think that's you know, it's.
Speaker 3: Hurtful and it feels horrible to have to defend being
Speaker 3: Maori right now in the ways, either whether it be
Speaker 3: in Parliament or.
Speaker 2: Through the hikui.
Speaker 3: A forty if six quotes A posts.
Speaker 1: The video of this hauker in Parliament has gone viral,
Speaker 1: with people around the world commenting and wanting to learn
Speaker 1: more from the outside looking in. It's quite an incredible
Speaker 1: moment when Hannah ra would the MP Clark tears that
Speaker 1: paper into What did you feel in that moment?
Speaker 3: Everything we do is extremely intentional, and you know, I
Speaker 3: guess the spirit of it is that TETTI is one
Speaker 3: of the most honored documents that you know, we have
Speaker 3: the spirit of its intent and also to protect us
Speaker 3: and our rights and interests tongue Toenema two. Also you know,
Speaker 3: focus on a united ALTI or but if you look at.
Speaker 2: How easy it was to rip it up. It was
Speaker 2: you know, it's three to.
Speaker 3: Four pages of thin pieces of paper that are shallow,
Speaker 3: that have no significance, and.
Speaker 2: That's you know, to see our youngest do that.
Speaker 3: So the spirit of this was, as you know, I
Speaker 3: was intentional, was pre planned, but it was also show
Speaker 3: the world, look what we've been relegated to, these thin
Speaker 3: pieces of paper that were just so easily easily ripped
Speaker 3: by our youngest member.
Speaker 2: So I think there's there's a real again, I can't think.
Speaker 3: Of other words in the hurt and the absolute intent
Speaker 3: to fight this and to show the world what it
Speaker 3: is that's happening at the moment. We were a country
Speaker 3: that had the first woman's vote where we did, we
Speaker 3: went out. We have always you know, punches above our
Speaker 3: weight in the anti nuclear space, anti discrimination space, and
Speaker 3: here we are in twenty twenty four that the sort
Speaker 3: of whole Trump like culture come into our politics.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think you know that's and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, we've done.
Speaker 3: Really well and so proud of our Hunah and the
Speaker 3: party and everyone else that the other opposition parties that
Speaker 3: in the gullery, those who the hucker belonged to that
Speaker 3: supported this because we had to let the world know
Speaker 3: what we're dealing with and what we're having to defend.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what really hit me when I
Speaker 1: saw that video as well, seeing Maria man or Carpa
Speaker 1: Kinghi looking at Mighty Clark and you can just see
Speaker 1: that she is so full of pride.
Speaker 2: Did you feel that as well? Absolutely? Every day.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think what we have is
Speaker 3: that we are intergenerationally connected. You know, we're the Aunties,
Speaker 3: and you know, we've got all different roles because we're
Speaker 3: you know, we're real people. But the reality is that
Speaker 3: it's going to be Hannah's generation of our population are
Speaker 3: under the age of forty that are going to have
Speaker 3: to try and rebalance this.
Speaker 2: Now. We need to bring balance back into our lives.
Speaker 3: We don't want to be suffering the worst and equalities
Speaker 3: that worse, dying eight years before everyone else. We don't
Speaker 3: want to be the most imprisoned and suffering in education systems.
Speaker 3: We actually don't want that for anyone. So Hannah represents hope,
Speaker 3: and what we're hoping that she shows the world is
Speaker 3: that we will stand up against this type of bigot
Speaker 3: and discrimination and we will bring the world with us.
Speaker 3: This younger generation are just phenomenal. So yeah, proud every day.
Speaker 3: But if you have a look, they don't stand alone.
Speaker 3: They will always be standing in support. And the way
Speaker 3: we stage things and do things is to show they
Speaker 3: will never ever take hits or be taken on alone.
Speaker 2: We will always be with them.
Speaker 1: Recently, former Prime Minister and ex treating the Girlciations Minister
Speaker 1: Dame Jenny Shepley has warned the ACT Party is inviting
Speaker 1: civil war with the Principal's Bill Seymour said that those
Speaker 1: comments were grossly responsible. But what do you make of
Speaker 1: those comments?
Speaker 2: Well, I agree.
Speaker 3: I mean the civil war that we're seen from some
Speaker 3: of the racists and the attacks from David Seymour, the
Speaker 3: way that they're basically committing treason on the TILITI feels
Speaker 3: like they're committing civil war against Tunata Fuenowa. We've never
Speaker 3: had to be in this state of defense politicians, and
Speaker 3: you know we've had to fight numerous things. You do
Speaker 3: not resort to doing that unless you are absolutely at
Speaker 3: the acute end of every defense you need to employ
Speaker 3: or deploy to take on this attack. And I know
Speaker 3: that it's not who she meant the civil war was
Speaker 3: coming from but it does feel like it's coming at us,
Speaker 3: and you know they're using every school possible and every
Speaker 3: influence and it's really really with these such a deep
Speaker 3: rooted sense of being portrayed. That the Prime Minister could
Speaker 3: trade the manna of the trity for a three year
Speaker 3: coalition agreement, I just and I can't explain it. And
Speaker 3: I think that's the hardest thing when our Antayo Tamataga
Speaker 3: kids are asking us, but why you know it's going
Speaker 3: to be Why.
Speaker 2: Would he do that for three years?
Speaker 3: It's just absolute power can do you know, can make
Speaker 3: people do some.
Speaker 2: Really sad, sick things.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I can understand where she's coming from, but
Speaker 3: I think she thought the war was going to come
Speaker 3: from us.
Speaker 1: On the other side, what do you make of people
Speaker 1: saying to Patimori is too radical, that the party only
Speaker 1: wants anarchy and is stoking racial divisions, and if the
Speaker 1: roles were reversed, if this was a Paki house saying
Speaker 1: all these kinds of things they say, it would be
Speaker 1: called racist. What do you make of those comments?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get how people see us, because we are
Speaker 3: up against it. We have been backed in a corner
Speaker 3: to have to come out fighting. Prior to this, you know,
Speaker 3: we have unfortunately, we have some of the worst statistics
Speaker 3: in house stats and as I said on their social
Speaker 3: stats that we just just as sets. We just don't
Speaker 3: want in order to address that. We know that we're
Speaker 3: put in here to push for transformational change. We've got
Speaker 3: a government that's back reversed everything back so much that
Speaker 3: we have to continuously push for a balance. And when
Speaker 3: you're pushing to bring something to float and yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just so adrift and you have to work really hard
Speaker 3: to bring the balance back. It does probably seem like
Speaker 3: we are radical, but we are absolutely committed to rebalancing,
Speaker 3: to commitments of living as Tatileti proposes, to developing a
Speaker 3: beautiful nation that's full of peace in Adha. When you're
Speaker 3: up against the kind of you know, extremism that we're seeing,
Speaker 3: which again feels like some of the Trump politics, you.
Speaker 2: Cannot just take it on gently.
Speaker 3: You do have to be transformational and intentional and provocative
Speaker 3: and everything we do to fight our cause.
Speaker 1: So the National Party in New Zealand first say that
Speaker 1: they're voted for the first reading of this bill, but
Speaker 1: they've made it very clear that they won't support it
Speaker 1: beyond this reading. Do you think that's good enough?
Speaker 2: No, I don't, and I think that's that's the deep shame.
Speaker 3: And we've had just as many National voters, ex National
Speaker 3: voters walking with us, in touch with us that they
Speaker 3: wanted their party in, but not at the costs of
Speaker 3: these types of relationships. And Nationals previously had what we
Speaker 3: could be seen as a proactive relationship with Maori.
Speaker 2: So no, I think again the.
Speaker 3: Harm that this creates the fact that we're going to
Speaker 3: need to push that the SOLI comittee process doesn't drag
Speaker 3: out and it doesn't become LinkedIn to David Seymour's run
Speaker 3: into the twenty twenty six election campaign. So I think
Speaker 3: this is what we deserve better than to be treated
Speaker 3: as political pawns.
Speaker 2: So Triti was.
Speaker 3: Done full of the wisdom, and our ancestors had absolute foresight.
Speaker 3: We've got to remember the context that we were asked
Speaker 3: of the nations to be colonized. They'd already seen the
Speaker 3: periers of colonization, they've seen what could happen, So there was.
Speaker 2: Foresight in this.
Speaker 3: And I just think that you know the fact that
Speaker 3: National again has decided that we were tradeable and the
Speaker 3: manner of their coalition agreement was so much more important
Speaker 3: than the manner of Te Triti and Tana Tafenwa. Is,
Speaker 3: you know, the deepest betrayal that we've ever had from
Speaker 3: a national government.
Speaker 1: A lot of supporters of the bill have made the
Speaker 1: point that the courts have been interpreting Te Tarriti for
Speaker 1: decades and that defining them in law is easier than
Speaker 1: continuing to kind of leave it up to individual judges.
Speaker 1: What do you make of that perspective.
Speaker 3: I think we've got to remember there were two parties
Speaker 3: to the Triiti, and that were the chiefs of Marii,
Speaker 3: the who the Ewi and the crown at the time
Speaker 3: Queen Victoria's and those are the only two people who
Speaker 3: can interfere and change One of the parties has to
Speaker 3: say they want to change it. None of the parties have,
Speaker 3: so I think, you know, some of those discussions are
Speaker 3: distraction from the real purpose here is that our role
Speaker 3: is to make sure that honor the treit is honored,
Speaker 3: and I think we get distracted with the legal speak.
Speaker 3: The reality is it is not for the government or
Speaker 3: the car owner tongue to determine ten tend to tonguel
Speaker 3: for Mali, those were guaranteed, and how Mali should want
Speaker 3: to live as ourselves, uninterrupted with our rights and interests.
Speaker 3: Recognize how we continue to thrive and push. But I
Speaker 3: guess this is not what the principle bills about. What
Speaker 3: David is saying is that he's had enough of indigenous
Speaker 3: people and to being recognized. He wants to stop that
Speaker 3: and have us all now be equally for New Zealanders,
Speaker 3: you know, ignore the fact that there are absolute disparities
Speaker 3: and iniquities because of colonization and all that rights and
Speaker 3: interests existed beforehand.
Speaker 2: And that's just not a starting point. That's not acceptable.
Speaker 2: It will never happen.
Speaker 4: No, No, I wasn't. But I you know, I grew
Speaker 4: up on the North. I know what hakka are about. However,
Speaker 4: I know the intention of them is to intimidate, and
Speaker 4: I just ultimately say to people, if you have to
Speaker 4: do a hakker to get your point across, maybe you
Speaker 4: don't have a good argument.
Speaker 1: I guess it's difficult. Hey, because Pakiha specially I've noticed
Speaker 1: have this mentality of saying, well, I didn't personally do that,
Speaker 1: I didn't do that, Why should I feel the repercussions
Speaker 1: of it. That kind of discussion around colonization.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, you.
Speaker 1: Didn't personally do it, but here are the consequences of
Speaker 1: what your forefathers did to us.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, because it does have lots of those kinds
Speaker 3: of discussions. And I think, first of all, I don't
Speaker 3: know a single Parkier in our lives that agrees with
Speaker 3: what's happened here.
Speaker 2: I think the thing is, I didn't sign.
Speaker 3: Up to have an obligation to look after those that
Speaker 3: live in old tet Or. Because my tupen is signed Tetiditi,
Speaker 3: Why should I have to feel as indigenous persons that I.
Speaker 2: Have to respect.
Speaker 3: But I do because that is the honor of living
Speaker 3: on this land and living together.
Speaker 2: So I get it. I totally get it. But there's no.
Speaker 3: One's asking for anything other than to live and breathe
Speaker 3: and be myself as Mary. I identify proudly to my Wakapapa,
Speaker 3: and nowhere else can my grandchildren be called the indigenous
Speaker 3: peoples of this Wuenowa. But there comes a responsibility with that.
Speaker 3: I have to look after everyone that arrives on this land.
Speaker 3: It's my role to MONARCHI because that's what our ancestors
Speaker 3: wanted us to do. You go into a Mariah and
Speaker 3: you will see every one of my aunties that eighteen
Speaker 3: ninety plus will stand up.
Speaker 2: And give their seats to every visitor that comes in.
Speaker 3: They will stop, they will make sure they're fed before
Speaker 3: they feed themselves. And I think that's the monarchy, that's
Speaker 3: the legacy that Tarity installs in us. Are beautiful values
Speaker 3: and I think that's what's been missed sadly because of
Speaker 3: the blissicization and the fact of the matter is we
Speaker 3: be really crude. E wee Maori are the last bastions.
Speaker 3: If you want to go in and create a gluting
Speaker 3: entity on the Partier River, you have to talk to
Speaker 3: the Manafenowa.
Speaker 2: You remove that last BASTIONI you.
Speaker 3: Have unvetted access to exploit anywhere in anyhow you want.
Speaker 2: So those are the responsibilities.
Speaker 3: I'd love to wake up one day and not have
Speaker 3: to be a katiarchy, but those are the responsibilities that
Speaker 3: we have to our land, to our ocean, to each other.
Speaker 1: Do you think there are any benefits to having this debate?
Speaker 3: I think there is benefits to be educating each other
Speaker 3: and listening to each other. And I actually think when
Speaker 3: we were coming from into put it All last night,
Speaker 3: I was in tears seeing the hundreds of tongue to
Speaker 3: Tarditi on the side and over bridges and hundreds of
Speaker 3: It's just phenomenal, and I think the discussions were starting.
Speaker 3: You look at our younger generation, they're not as hung
Speaker 3: up as a generation.
Speaker 2: Who didn't learn about our history.
Speaker 3: We've got a generation that have lived in silos and
Speaker 3: I've woken up and they feel like this has just arrived.
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot to be said about
Speaker 3: listening to each other, respecting each other, and knowing that
Speaker 3: some may never ever get what we have as a
Speaker 3: nation more than any other nation in the world. But
Speaker 3: I think to bring it in the debating chambers is wrong.
Speaker 3: It doesn't belong in the car on and a tongue
Speaker 3: of space and parliament space. It belongs out in our communities.
Speaker 3: It doesn't belong for politicians to drag it through mud
Speaker 3: and to use it as a ploy of why we
Speaker 3: should be highlighting our differences instead of working off our strengths.
Speaker 1: What do you hope happens over the next six months
Speaker 1: while this bill is before the Select Committee.
Speaker 3: My first hope is that it doesn't drag out for
Speaker 3: six months. To be really honest, I hope that there's
Speaker 3: some wisdom in the Select Committee and certainly those are
Speaker 3: the discussions that Larwie and I are having, and that
Speaker 3: we shorten it so that the harm, the harm internally
Speaker 3: domestically for alted or is minimized. You know, internationally is
Speaker 3: we've just had huge amounts of just force with BBC
Speaker 3: and Washington Posts and different international media that are following this,
Speaker 3: and you know, what I can see in them is
Speaker 3: pure shock. So there's been a lot of damage to
Speaker 3: relationships in siding out. So so I'm hoping that they truncated,
Speaker 3: that it's a shorter process, that we get it back
Speaker 3: into the House and it's voted down, it goes away,
Speaker 3: and we come back and we are led into discussions
Speaker 3: about what future constitutional transformation needs to look like. And
Speaker 3: they've been really healthy debates under the last national government
Speaker 3: in Martinquimi, and there'd been just as many non Maldias
Speaker 3: Mary having those discussions. That's where it belongs out in
Speaker 3: the community, is not as a political toy to sort
Speaker 3: of weaponize and feed the those who live off this
Speaker 3: type of device of misery and who just don't want
Speaker 3: to recognize that we're a nation. There, here's tongue t
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzadherld, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
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Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.