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Speaker 1: Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The

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Speaker 1: Hikoy that started in Cape Rianga has made its way

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Speaker 1: down the country of the last week and arrives in

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Speaker 1: Wellington today. While many have taken part in various stages

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Speaker 1: of the Hikoy, tens of thousands of people are expected

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Speaker 1: outside the Beehive today as a protest against the government's

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Speaker 1: policies impacting Malti, including the Treaty Principal's Bill. Tipazi Maldi

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Speaker 1: have been leading the pushback against the government, notably with

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Speaker 1: a viral hukka in Parliament during the bill's first reading

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Speaker 1: that has garnered global attention. The party's co leader, Debbie

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Speaker 1: Nadewa Paka, joins us today on the Front Page to

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Speaker 1: discuss the hiccu, that viral hakka and why they are

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Speaker 1: fighting back so strongly against this coalition government. So, Dabbie,

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Speaker 1: the Hikoy is set to reach Parliament today. How has

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Speaker 1: it gone so far?

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Speaker 2: Amazing?

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Speaker 3: So Lavely and I were at the very beginning. I

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Speaker 3: feel like it's seven or eight days ago and it's

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Speaker 3: just continued. I wasn't there at Tomaki Mikado, but have

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Speaker 3: been back in there again.

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Speaker 2: In the last three days and just amazing spirit.

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Speaker 3: A lot of fabulous discipline, a lot of kia coming,

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Speaker 3: particularly this last week we arrived and put it all

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Speaker 3: last night.

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Speaker 2: There's just an overwhelming sense.

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Speaker 3: Of support and physical support of Pako of Tana Titi

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Speaker 3: and I think, you know that's very marshall, very humbling,

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Speaker 3: but again also very very strong in the messaging against

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Speaker 3: this bill and it's certainly against the government's agreement on it.

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Speaker 1: Asides from some traffic congestion, there doesn't seem to have

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Speaker 1: been any incidents along the way. It's been pretty peaceful.

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Speaker 1: But around thirty thousand people are expected at Parliament today,

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Speaker 1: which is actually bigger than the twenty twenty two protests.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the hikoy will remain peaceful with that

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Speaker 1: many people involved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think those numbers will probably go even higher.

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Speaker 3: And I kept looking at some of the numbers we

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Speaker 3: had and Puppy Uia and Parmesan North and Title Bullivian

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Speaker 3: and put it all last night. Look, I think what's

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Speaker 3: really important is the passive and the passive way of

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Speaker 3: doing hikoy and activism is very mildy, and then the

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Speaker 3: only incident I saw was two sisters were fighting over

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Speaker 3: who was going to be on the left or the

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Speaker 3: right hand side of a selfie with me. They are

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Speaker 3: too focused on what the messaging needs to be, and

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Speaker 3: unity has been a keyword that has come down from

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Speaker 3: our King, who we lost recently, from many of those

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Speaker 3: at the Hickoy nineteen seventy five, and that's continued to

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Speaker 3: be the way that we mobilize. So now I don't

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Speaker 3: expect any real incidents other than getting the message across

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Speaker 3: and again continue on that beautiful spirit of unity.

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Speaker 1: I actually had a friend in Australia message me at

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Speaker 1: the weekend asking if I could explain to her in

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Speaker 1: the simplest way possible, like I was talking to a

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Speaker 1: five year old, what happened in parliament? How would you

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Speaker 1: explain the Treaty and the Principal's Bill to my friend?

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Speaker 3: I think what's happened in Parliament and what this bell

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Speaker 3: represents is wiping away the existence and the rights that

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Speaker 3: the indigenous peoples of Old t Edoor had before colonization.

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Speaker 3: We were the protection to always remember Mary artangua defen

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Speaker 3: of Altor and the significance. We have as Mary to

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Speaker 3: look after everyone that comes in it, but not at

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Speaker 3: the cost of being Mary. I think that's probably the

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Speaker 3: most simplest way. It's harmful. It hurts not to feel valued.

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Speaker 3: It really hurts to have seen that we would trade

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Speaker 3: it off to become part of a coalition agreement.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think that's you know, it's.

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Speaker 3: Hurtful and it feels horrible to have to defend being

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Speaker 3: Maori right now in the ways, either whether it be

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Speaker 3: in Parliament or.

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Speaker 2: Through the hikui.

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Speaker 3: A forty if six quotes A posts.

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Speaker 1: The video of this hauker in Parliament has gone viral,

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Speaker 1: with people around the world commenting and wanting to learn

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Speaker 1: more from the outside looking in. It's quite an incredible

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Speaker 1: moment when Hannah ra would the MP Clark tears that

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Speaker 1: paper into What did you feel in that moment?

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Speaker 3: Everything we do is extremely intentional, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: guess the spirit of it is that TETTI is one

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Speaker 3: of the most honored documents that you know, we have

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Speaker 3: the spirit of its intent and also to protect us

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Speaker 3: and our rights and interests tongue Toenema two. Also you know,

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Speaker 3: focus on a united ALTI or but if you look at.

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Speaker 2: How easy it was to rip it up. It was

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Speaker 2: you know, it's three to.

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Speaker 3: Four pages of thin pieces of paper that are shallow,

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Speaker 3: that have no significance, and.

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Speaker 2: That's you know, to see our youngest do that.

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Speaker 3: So the spirit of this was, as you know, I

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Speaker 3: was intentional, was pre planned, but it was also show

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Speaker 3: the world, look what we've been relegated to, these thin

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Speaker 3: pieces of paper that were just so easily easily ripped

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Speaker 3: by our youngest member.

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Speaker 2: So I think there's there's a real again, I can't think.

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Speaker 3: Of other words in the hurt and the absolute intent

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Speaker 3: to fight this and to show the world what it

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Speaker 3: is that's happening at the moment. We were a country

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Speaker 3: that had the first woman's vote where we did, we

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Speaker 3: went out. We have always you know, punches above our

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Speaker 3: weight in the anti nuclear space, anti discrimination space, and

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Speaker 3: here we are in twenty twenty four that the sort

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Speaker 3: of whole Trump like culture come into our politics.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think you know that's and I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've done.

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Speaker 3: Really well and so proud of our Hunah and the

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Speaker 3: party and everyone else that the other opposition parties that

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Speaker 3: in the gullery, those who the hucker belonged to that

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Speaker 3: supported this because we had to let the world know

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Speaker 3: what we're dealing with and what we're having to defend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what really hit me when I

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Speaker 1: saw that video as well, seeing Maria man or Carpa

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Speaker 1: Kinghi looking at Mighty Clark and you can just see

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Speaker 1: that she is so full of pride.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel that as well? Absolutely? Every day.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think what we have is

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Speaker 3: that we are intergenerationally connected. You know, we're the Aunties,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we've got all different roles because we're

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Speaker 3: you know, we're real people. But the reality is that

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Speaker 3: it's going to be Hannah's generation of our population are

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Speaker 3: under the age of forty that are going to have

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Speaker 3: to try and rebalance this.

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Speaker 2: Now. We need to bring balance back into our lives.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to be suffering the worst and equalities

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Speaker 3: that worse, dying eight years before everyone else. We don't

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Speaker 3: want to be the most imprisoned and suffering in education systems.

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Speaker 3: We actually don't want that for anyone. So Hannah represents hope,

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Speaker 3: and what we're hoping that she shows the world is

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Speaker 3: that we will stand up against this type of bigot

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Speaker 3: and discrimination and we will bring the world with us.

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Speaker 3: This younger generation are just phenomenal. So yeah, proud every day.

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Speaker 3: But if you have a look, they don't stand alone.

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Speaker 3: They will always be standing in support. And the way

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Speaker 3: we stage things and do things is to show they

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Speaker 3: will never ever take hits or be taken on alone.

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Speaker 2: We will always be with them.

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Speaker 1: Recently, former Prime Minister and ex treating the Girlciations Minister

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Speaker 1: Dame Jenny Shepley has warned the ACT Party is inviting

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Speaker 1: civil war with the Principal's Bill Seymour said that those

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Speaker 1: comments were grossly responsible. But what do you make of

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Speaker 1: those comments?

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Speaker 2: Well, I agree.

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Speaker 3: I mean the civil war that we're seen from some

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Speaker 3: of the racists and the attacks from David Seymour, the

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Speaker 3: way that they're basically committing treason on the TILITI feels

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Speaker 3: like they're committing civil war against Tunata Fuenowa. We've never

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Speaker 3: had to be in this state of defense politicians, and

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Speaker 3: you know we've had to fight numerous things. You do

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Speaker 3: not resort to doing that unless you are absolutely at

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Speaker 3: the acute end of every defense you need to employ

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Speaker 3: or deploy to take on this attack. And I know

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Speaker 3: that it's not who she meant the civil war was

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Speaker 3: coming from but it does feel like it's coming at us,

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Speaker 3: and you know they're using every school possible and every

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Speaker 3: influence and it's really really with these such a deep

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Speaker 3: rooted sense of being portrayed. That the Prime Minister could

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Speaker 3: trade the manna of the trity for a three year

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Speaker 3: coalition agreement, I just and I can't explain it. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's the hardest thing when our Antayo Tamataga

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Speaker 3: kids are asking us, but why you know it's going

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Speaker 3: to be Why.

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Speaker 2: Would he do that for three years?

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Speaker 3: It's just absolute power can do you know, can make

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Speaker 3: people do some.

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Speaker 2: Really sad, sick things.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I can understand where she's coming from, but

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Speaker 3: I think she thought the war was going to come

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Speaker 3: from us.

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Speaker 1: On the other side, what do you make of people

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Speaker 1: saying to Patimori is too radical, that the party only

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Speaker 1: wants anarchy and is stoking racial divisions, and if the

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Speaker 1: roles were reversed, if this was a Paki house saying

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Speaker 1: all these kinds of things they say, it would be

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Speaker 1: called racist. What do you make of those comments?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get how people see us, because we are

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Speaker 3: up against it. We have been backed in a corner

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Speaker 3: to have to come out fighting. Prior to this, you know,

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Speaker 3: we have unfortunately, we have some of the worst statistics

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Speaker 3: in house stats and as I said on their social

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Speaker 3: stats that we just just as sets. We just don't

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Speaker 3: want in order to address that. We know that we're

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Speaker 3: put in here to push for transformational change. We've got

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Speaker 3: a government that's back reversed everything back so much that

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Speaker 3: we have to continuously push for a balance. And when

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Speaker 3: you're pushing to bring something to float and yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: just so adrift and you have to work really hard

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Speaker 3: to bring the balance back. It does probably seem like

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Speaker 3: we are radical, but we are absolutely committed to rebalancing,

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Speaker 3: to commitments of living as Tatileti proposes, to developing a

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Speaker 3: beautiful nation that's full of peace in Adha. When you're

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Speaker 3: up against the kind of you know, extremism that we're seeing,

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Speaker 3: which again feels like some of the Trump politics, you.

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Speaker 2: Cannot just take it on gently.

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Speaker 3: You do have to be transformational and intentional and provocative

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Speaker 3: and everything we do to fight our cause.

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Speaker 1: So the National Party in New Zealand first say that

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Speaker 1: they're voted for the first reading of this bill, but

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Speaker 1: they've made it very clear that they won't support it

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Speaker 1: beyond this reading. Do you think that's good enough?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't, and I think that's that's the deep shame.

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Speaker 3: And we've had just as many National voters, ex National

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Speaker 3: voters walking with us, in touch with us that they

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Speaker 3: wanted their party in, but not at the costs of

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Speaker 3: these types of relationships. And Nationals previously had what we

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Speaker 3: could be seen as a proactive relationship with Maori.

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Speaker 2: So no, I think again the.

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Speaker 3: Harm that this creates the fact that we're going to

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Speaker 3: need to push that the SOLI comittee process doesn't drag

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Speaker 3: out and it doesn't become LinkedIn to David Seymour's run

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Speaker 3: into the twenty twenty six election campaign. So I think

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Speaker 3: this is what we deserve better than to be treated

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Speaker 3: as political pawns.

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Speaker 2: So Triti was.

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Speaker 3: Done full of the wisdom, and our ancestors had absolute foresight.

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Speaker 3: We've got to remember the context that we were asked

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Speaker 3: of the nations to be colonized. They'd already seen the

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Speaker 3: periers of colonization, they've seen what could happen, So there was.

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Speaker 2: Foresight in this.

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Speaker 3: And I just think that you know the fact that

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Speaker 3: National again has decided that we were tradeable and the

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Speaker 3: manner of their coalition agreement was so much more important

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Speaker 3: than the manner of Te Triti and Tana Tafenwa. Is,

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Speaker 3: you know, the deepest betrayal that we've ever had from

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Speaker 3: a national government.

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Speaker 1: A lot of supporters of the bill have made the

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Speaker 1: point that the courts have been interpreting Te Tarriti for

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Speaker 1: decades and that defining them in law is easier than

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Speaker 1: continuing to kind of leave it up to individual judges.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that perspective.

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Speaker 3: I think we've got to remember there were two parties

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Speaker 3: to the Triiti, and that were the chiefs of Marii,

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Speaker 3: the who the Ewi and the crown at the time

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Speaker 3: Queen Victoria's and those are the only two people who

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Speaker 3: can interfere and change One of the parties has to

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Speaker 3: say they want to change it. None of the parties have,

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Speaker 3: so I think, you know, some of those discussions are

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Speaker 3: distraction from the real purpose here is that our role

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Speaker 3: is to make sure that honor the treit is honored,

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Speaker 3: and I think we get distracted with the legal speak.

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Speaker 3: The reality is it is not for the government or

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Speaker 3: the car owner tongue to determine ten tend to tonguel

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Speaker 3: for Mali, those were guaranteed, and how Mali should want

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Speaker 3: to live as ourselves, uninterrupted with our rights and interests.

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Speaker 3: Recognize how we continue to thrive and push. But I

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Speaker 3: guess this is not what the principle bills about. What

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Speaker 3: David is saying is that he's had enough of indigenous

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Speaker 3: people and to being recognized. He wants to stop that

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Speaker 3: and have us all now be equally for New Zealanders,

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Speaker 3: you know, ignore the fact that there are absolute disparities

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Speaker 3: and iniquities because of colonization and all that rights and

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Speaker 3: interests existed beforehand.

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Speaker 2: And that's just not a starting point. That's not acceptable.

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Speaker 2: It will never happen.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I wasn't. But I you know, I grew

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Speaker 4: up on the North. I know what hakka are about. However,

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Speaker 4: I know the intention of them is to intimidate, and

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Speaker 4: I just ultimately say to people, if you have to

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Speaker 4: do a hakker to get your point across, maybe you

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Speaker 4: don't have a good argument.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's difficult. Hey, because Pakiha specially I've noticed

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Speaker 1: have this mentality of saying, well, I didn't personally do that,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do that, Why should I feel the repercussions

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Speaker 1: of it. That kind of discussion around colonization.

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Speaker 2: It's like, well, you.

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Speaker 1: Didn't personally do it, but here are the consequences of

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Speaker 1: what your forefathers did to us.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, because it does have lots of those kinds

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Speaker 3: of discussions. And I think, first of all, I don't

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Speaker 3: know a single Parkier in our lives that agrees with

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Speaker 3: what's happened here.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing is, I didn't sign.

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Speaker 3: Up to have an obligation to look after those that

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Speaker 3: live in old tet Or. Because my tupen is signed Tetiditi,

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Speaker 3: Why should I have to feel as indigenous persons that I.

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Speaker 2: Have to respect.

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Speaker 3: But I do because that is the honor of living

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Speaker 3: on this land and living together.

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Speaker 2: So I get it. I totally get it. But there's no.

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Speaker 3: One's asking for anything other than to live and breathe

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Speaker 3: and be myself as Mary. I identify proudly to my Wakapapa,

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Speaker 3: and nowhere else can my grandchildren be called the indigenous

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Speaker 3: peoples of this Wuenowa. But there comes a responsibility with that.

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Speaker 3: I have to look after everyone that arrives on this land.

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Speaker 3: It's my role to MONARCHI because that's what our ancestors

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Speaker 3: wanted us to do. You go into a Mariah and

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Speaker 3: you will see every one of my aunties that eighteen

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Speaker 3: ninety plus will stand up.

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Speaker 2: And give their seats to every visitor that comes in.

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Speaker 3: They will stop, they will make sure they're fed before

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Speaker 3: they feed themselves. And I think that's the monarchy, that's

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Speaker 3: the legacy that Tarity installs in us. Are beautiful values

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Speaker 3: and I think that's what's been missed sadly because of

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Speaker 3: the blissicization and the fact of the matter is we

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Speaker 3: be really crude. E wee Maori are the last bastions.

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Speaker 3: If you want to go in and create a gluting

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Speaker 3: entity on the Partier River, you have to talk to

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Speaker 3: the Manafenowa.

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Speaker 2: You remove that last BASTIONI you.

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Speaker 3: Have unvetted access to exploit anywhere in anyhow you want.

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Speaker 2: So those are the responsibilities.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to wake up one day and not have

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Speaker 3: to be a katiarchy, but those are the responsibilities that

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Speaker 3: we have to our land, to our ocean, to each other.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there are any benefits to having this debate?

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Speaker 3: I think there is benefits to be educating each other

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Speaker 3: and listening to each other. And I actually think when

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Speaker 3: we were coming from into put it All last night,

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Speaker 3: I was in tears seeing the hundreds of tongue to

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Speaker 3: Tarditi on the side and over bridges and hundreds of

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Speaker 3: It's just phenomenal, and I think the discussions were starting.

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Speaker 3: You look at our younger generation, they're not as hung

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Speaker 3: up as a generation.

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Speaker 2: Who didn't learn about our history.

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Speaker 3: We've got a generation that have lived in silos and

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Speaker 3: I've woken up and they feel like this has just arrived.

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Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot to be said about

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Speaker 3: listening to each other, respecting each other, and knowing that

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Speaker 3: some may never ever get what we have as a

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Speaker 3: nation more than any other nation in the world. But

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Speaker 3: I think to bring it in the debating chambers is wrong.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't belong in the car on and a tongue

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Speaker 3: of space and parliament space. It belongs out in our communities.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't belong for politicians to drag it through mud

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Speaker 3: and to use it as a ploy of why we

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Speaker 3: should be highlighting our differences instead of working off our strengths.

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Speaker 1: What do you hope happens over the next six months

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Speaker 1: while this bill is before the Select Committee.

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Speaker 3: My first hope is that it doesn't drag out for

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Speaker 3: six months. To be really honest, I hope that there's

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Speaker 3: some wisdom in the Select Committee and certainly those are

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Speaker 3: the discussions that Larwie and I are having, and that

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Speaker 3: we shorten it so that the harm, the harm internally

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Speaker 3: domestically for alted or is minimized. You know, internationally is

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Speaker 3: we've just had huge amounts of just force with BBC

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Speaker 3: and Washington Posts and different international media that are following this,

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Speaker 3: and you know, what I can see in them is

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Speaker 3: pure shock. So there's been a lot of damage to

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Speaker 3: relationships in siding out. So so I'm hoping that they truncated,

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Speaker 3: that it's a shorter process, that we get it back

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Speaker 3: into the House and it's voted down, it goes away,

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Speaker 3: and we come back and we are led into discussions

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Speaker 3: about what future constitutional transformation needs to look like. And

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Speaker 3: they've been really healthy debates under the last national government

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Speaker 3: in Martinquimi, and there'd been just as many non Maldias

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Speaker 3: Mary having those discussions. That's where it belongs out in

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Speaker 3: the community, is not as a political toy to sort

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Speaker 3: of weaponize and feed the those who live off this

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Speaker 3: type of device of misery and who just don't want

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Speaker 3: to recognize that we're a nation. There, here's tongue t

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime, anytime.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 1: at enzadherld, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is

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Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also

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Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front

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Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.