1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,280
Speaker 1: Amid the economic gloom, a lot of people in the

2
00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,960
Speaker 1: tech sector are floating some interesting ideas for how we

3
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,720
Speaker 1: can get out of it and actually put some horse

4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 1: power behind the government's growth agenda.

5
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 2: Tech itself is not the answer. It's seldom is, but

6
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 2: smart people in the tech space who understand disruption, how

7
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 2: to scale up quickly and fail fast, are kicking about

8
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,520
Speaker 2: some interesting ideas that are worth considering.

9
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,000
Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech, powered by two Degrees,

10
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:34,519
Speaker 1: business seasoned startup mentor and investor Andy Hamilton with twenty

11
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 1: six ideas to contribute to New Zealand's economic and social development.

12
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,920
Speaker 3: Where all the kids coming out of finance degrees in

13
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 3: Otago and cannot we want to go for their first job.

14
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 4: It's not Willlington, it's not Awkoin.

15
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,240
Speaker 3: It's sick, bright lights, big pay, and they're not coming

16
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,159
Speaker 3: back to New Zealand.

17
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm been more for the last time and I'm Peter Griffin.

18
00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: And Andy Hamilton also reflects on the shit storm he found

19
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 1: himself in a couple of years back, when he and

20
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: his business partners were accused of bad behavior towards some

21
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: of their suppliers and ended up in an acrimonious fight

22
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: with Callahan Innovation. That saga ended with a damning auditor

23
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,560
Speaker 1: General's report that found the government agency really screwed things up.

24
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,959
Speaker 2: It was a dark episode for the startup community, and

25
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,640
Speaker 2: this is the first time really that Andy has discussed it,

26
00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 2: so it's good to get his reflections on that episode

27
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 2: and what he learned from the whole sorry thing, which

28
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,200
Speaker 2: really had no winners.

29
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,039
Speaker 1: We'll get into that soon, but first, Ben that bombshell

30
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: you just dropped about this being your last episode. We

31
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 1: really need to get to the heart of that. Obviously,

32
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: there's been a lot going on. It ensured me. I

33
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,240
Speaker 1: was at going away drinks for a lot of people

34
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,480
Speaker 1: last week who had been made redundant, So a lot

35
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: of really top journalists, including yourself, heading out into the world.

36
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 1: What has gone down sort of since we came back

37
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: from the summer break and insied me a publisher of

38
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,560
Speaker 1: the New Zealand Herald business Deer Scan our own podcast.

39
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not been overly secretive, I guess.

40
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 2: I came back early in January and had my first

41
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,000
Speaker 2: week back, and then in my second week back was

42
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: when the initial announcement was made to the newsroom at

43
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 2: large or to end zmy at large, I should say

44
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,519
Speaker 2: about the restructuring that was coming through.

45
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 1: And.

46
00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 2: I guess, speaking frankly, I felt like because I had

47
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 2: a very a bit of an outlier role in the

48
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 2: business desk outlet, where the other my colleagues were generally

49
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,119
Speaker 2: journalists and senior journalists, and then I had this outlier

50
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,040
Speaker 2: role of tech editor, and so I thought, Okay, here

51
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 2: we go. This is probably going to be impacting me

52
00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 2: in some way, strap in against and so it has

53
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,920
Speaker 2: been about two months now of trying to work through

54
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:10,360
Speaker 2: that process, and sure enough, Yeah, my role was disestablished

55
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 2: and people were asked whether they wanted voluntary redundancy, and

56
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,919
Speaker 2: there's been you know, to talk about some of the

57
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,040
Speaker 2: major major senior journalists who have taken that redundancy. So

58
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 2: I had to kind of look at whether I wanted

59
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 2: to reapply for certain jobs within the company. I didn't

60
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 2: feel in the end that any of those roles were

61
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 2: appropriate for me, and so I decided that I would

62
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 2: take redundancy. So that makes this my final episode of

63
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 2: the Business of Tech. Yeah, so there's been a lot

64
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 2: of talk a pivot to video, and then of course

65
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,480
Speaker 2: there's been the recent change of shareholder with New Zealand

66
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 2: resident or citizen but originally from Canada, James Grennan. He

67
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 2: has taken ten percent shareholding, and I think the best

68
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 2: coverage for this has been Duncan Grieves The Fold and

69
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,560
Speaker 2: some of his writing elsewhere. So if you're interested in

70
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 2: the whole story, I would recommend checking that out. But

71
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 2: James Grennan's perspective is I think quite clear from some

72
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 2: of his other outlets like The Centrist that he has

73
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 2: been involved in. And so there is now talk of

74
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,760
Speaker 2: like what's going to happen within nzm ME and whether

75
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 2: there's going to be you know, changes editorial.

76
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, slant will be put on the news based on

77
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 1: the ownership of the organization, which frankly we've seen with

78
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 1: the likes of the Washington Posts, most famously Jeff Bezos

79
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: is starting to assert his authority. So I guess if

80
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,960
Speaker 1: you're the owner, you have legal power, you have the

81
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,240
Speaker 1: right to do that.

82
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, maybe not in overt ways. And

83
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,239
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the hard news will remain saying,

84
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, this happens, and somebody gets out there and

85
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 2: reports it factually, but it's it comes to those opiniony editorially.

86
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,160
Speaker 1: Side of the paper.

87
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 5: That's where it could.

88
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:05,840
Speaker 1: Start to shift.

89
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,640
Speaker 2: Not saying it will. Nobody really knows, but that's just

90
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,719
Speaker 2: some chatter around the place.

91
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess the background to all of this

92
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,160
Speaker 1: is just carnage in the media sector. We've seen particularly

93
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,280
Speaker 1: last year with the demise of news Hub TV and

94
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:30,000
Speaker 1: ZAD taking a massive haircut, stuff restructuring. So this is

95
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,920
Speaker 1: the industry we find ourselves in. This is a move

96
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,159
Speaker 1: by Indented ME to cut cost out of the business.

97
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,359
Speaker 1: I think they want to save four million dollars a

98
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:43,120
Speaker 1: year by reducing the editorial head count thirty roles I

99
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,719
Speaker 1: think in total, a lot of them in production, but

100
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 1: a lot of them senior journalists, you know, the likes

101
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,919
Speaker 1: of yourself Jamie Morton is science reporter going as well.

102
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,039
Speaker 5: You know a number of people big.

103
00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,400
Speaker 1: Names, Clear Trevette, political editor in the Herald News. So

104
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 1: obviously the news business is about breaking stories, expert analysis,

105
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 1: so we're going to lose a bit of that. So

106
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 1: I guess we're at a real sort of fork in

107
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: the road for the media business about what really counts

108
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,960
Speaker 1: when it comes to what audiences are willing to pay for.

109
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: Do they just want breaking, live news, know what's going

110
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 1: on in the world. Do they want that sort of

111
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: in depth coverage and will they subscribe based on the

112
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 1: personalities who are providing that. I think that's really the

113
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: big question mark now for the likes of ensured Me

114
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: and others that are restructuring and changing their strategy slightly.

115
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,440
Speaker 1: What is actually going to be sustainable as a news

116
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,599
Speaker 1: business in a small market like New Zealand in the

117
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:47,239
Speaker 1: coming years.

118
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like you said, personality is going

119
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 2: to be a big part of it, and z A

120
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 2: me the biggest personalities or the most I guess the

121
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 2: most popular personalities come out of the news talk, zed B,

122
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,760
Speaker 2: Space or z B generally, and so there's probably going

123
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 2: to be I think there's going to be a reasonable

124
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 2: integration between z B and whatever Enzenemy decides to do

125
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 2: going forward. That'd be interesting to see how that plays

126
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 2: out as well. But I think it does just really speak,

127
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,119
Speaker 2: like you said, to where we are with news media.

128
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 2: The Anzenemy needed to do something drastic in order to

129
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 2: keep its shareholders happy, and if you believe some of

130
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,160
Speaker 2: them reporting that's coming out around Grennan's discussion with shareholders,

131
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 2: they aren't happy you know, for whatever reason, how profitable

132
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 2: should a newspaper be, you know, like does it need

133
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 2: to be to make its shareholders happy? What is a

134
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 2: shareholder's kind of expectation when they have when they have

135
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 2: holdings of a news a legacy news media outlet, Like

136
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,080
Speaker 2: what are they actually what is important to them? And

137
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,840
Speaker 2: I think we're starting to learn a little bit about

138
00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: that in the modern world. So yeah, it's a bittersweet

139
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 2: obviously to leave business desk and to leave NZ. At me,

140
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 2: it's hard because it means that I'm leaving a nine

141
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 2: to five job that you know, has been has done

142
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 2: me very well, and.

143
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 5: I'm grateful for that.

144
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,040
Speaker 2: But I will point to this quote in aren Z's

145
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 2: Media Watch, which is where they went to a farewell

146
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,839
Speaker 2: with some of the Enzendemy staffers and I was at that, Yeah,

147
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 2: that's right. I almost won't but I couldn't make it.

148
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,439
Speaker 2: As said, one journalist, leaned on the bar and delivered

149
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,960
Speaker 2: a bleaque equip this was meant to be awake for

150
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 2: the people leaving, but it's turned into a wake for

151
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 2: the people who are staying, the said, which was quite funny,

152
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 2: and you know, aly a lovely quote to put into

153
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 2: a media watch story. I'm not sure how entirely accurate

154
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 2: it is, but there is a sense of that to

155
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,200
Speaker 2: me where I'm I don't think I fit into the

156
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 2: new enzodemy structure, and so yeah, I'm off to try

157
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 2: and see what else I can do. Whether that ends

158
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 2: up being a new full time role elsewhere, that's a possibility.

159
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,200
Speaker 2: The other possibility is that I end up working for myself,

160
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 2: whether that's freelancing, contracting, whatever it is that I end

161
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 2: up doing. So I think the best way to keep

162
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 2: up with whatever I'm going to do is to you know,

163
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,960
Speaker 2: follow me on LinkedIn, as we say at the end

164
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 2: of each episode, and you can also find me on

165
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 2: Blue Sky. Just a public service announcement that if you

166
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 2: do want to know where I am, that's where I am.

167
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nevertheless, you are, as they say on LinkedIn, open

168
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,079
Speaker 1: to work.

169
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 4: That's it.

170
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're going to go far. You're going to

171
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 1: do fine being you've got such a great network. And

172
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: as we keep talking about on the podcast in our

173
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:55,000
Speaker 1: writing in Business Desk, it's the forces of disruption tech

174
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,960
Speaker 1: that's what we love, that has completely disrupted the industry

175
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 1: that we trained to go into. But there are opportunities

176
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 1: there as well. Like at that going away there was

177
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 1: actually some excitement in the room. You saw these people

178
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,440
Speaker 1: who some of them had been at the Herald for

179
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 1: twenty years going you know, I've got an open slate

180
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 1: really as to what i can do with the rest

181
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 1: of my working life. And there was talk of people

182
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: setting up substacks and you know, trying to like Bernardiccki's

183
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,560
Speaker 1: done with the Khaka, that sort of thing, and try

184
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,960
Speaker 1: and build their own audience. And it goes back to

185
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 1: that sort of personality driven news. People trust certain personalities

186
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 1: and we saw that with the the Joe Rogans and

187
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 1: that just building this massive listenership. So there is actual

188
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 1: opportunity out there. What is the media going to look

189
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 1: like in five to ten years. It's hard to know.

190
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 1: What we do know is that the business model is

191
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: broken and big tech has a part to play in that.

192
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 1: But we've got to play with the hands we've been dealt.

193
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 1: So I think there will be innovation in the New

194
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 1: Zealand media as a result of all these really and

195
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 1: trusted people going out potentially on their own.

196
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 2: Well fingers cross, that can be part of that.

197
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 1: The problem I think is is such a fragmented landscape.

198
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: If you do set up a substack, I mean dozens

199
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 1: of them. Now, how many substacks are people willing to

200
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,320
Speaker 1: pay for? So this fragmentation is a real problem we

201
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,960
Speaker 1: need to deal with. I want to support a lot

202
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 1: of my colleagues who are out there, but there needs

203
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,599
Speaker 1: to be a more seamless way to do that and

204
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: an affordable way to at least support a pool of

205
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 1: people who are out on their own.

206
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, So yeah, I guess that's kind of

207
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 2: where I am, where we are, And why don't you

208
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,840
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about what's going to happen from

209
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 2: next week?

210
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the podcast will continue and it'll be a

211
00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 1: sole hosted podcast, So I'll be doing it myself, Ben,

212
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 1: which is going to be a struggle after eighty nine

213
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,640
Speaker 1: episodes of being there with you through every episode and

214
00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 1: you producing every episode, it's going to be quite differ

215
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,240
Speaker 1: for me. But we've got great support from our sponsored

216
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,959
Speaker 1: two degrees for the next year, so we will carry on.

217
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 1: We'll soldier on alone and hopefully have you back from

218
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,240
Speaker 1: time to time on the podcast as you do forge

219
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 1: your own way out there. I know you've got irons

220
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: in the fire with various media outlets as well as

221
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 1: a sort of a freelancer, so we'll be seeing lots

222
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 1: of you around.

223
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully I'd love to come back and check in

224
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 2: with how things are going. And obviously I'll be subscribing

225
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 2: as well, so yeah, yeah.

226
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 5: I guess.

227
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 2: Just before we move on to the next BOK, thank

228
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 2: you so much to all the listeners out there who

229
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 2: have stuck with us throughout this time and supported the

230
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 2: business attack, and thanks to you Peter for being a

231
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 2: wonderful co host as well.

232
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 1: It's been a fantastic right Ben, and I just love

233
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,199
Speaker 1: your insight, which is slightly different to mine on many

234
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,840
Speaker 1: occasions and many issues and topics related to tech, but

235
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 1: just really love your thoughtful and very human centered sort

236
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 1: of view Off all of this, I get a bit

237
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 1: drawn up in the showiness of tech and what it

238
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 1: can do for society and the world, but quite often

239
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 1: you pull me back and say, well, hang on, have

240
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 1: you considered all of the implications of this, which is

241
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 1: so valuable. So I hope you keep that up because

242
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 1: we need those voices. Paris Marx is doing that sort

243
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 1: of thing at the moment to great effects, looking at

244
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,080
Speaker 1: the rise of data centers and all these things, asking

245
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: those questions about, hey, is this actually a force for good?

246
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, I'm human centric. Maybe

247
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,359
Speaker 2: that's my new branding.

248
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: Human centric tech.

249
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

250
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 1: So, as we've discussed, media is one area where we're

251
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: facing structural issues to the detriment off the country. We think.

252
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 1: Others are our taxation system, how we educate our kids,

253
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 1: our healthcare system, even our stock exchange, the science system

254
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 1: that's supposed to underpin the innovation we do as a nation.

255
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 1: Everything is in flux, slightly broken, to be honest, no

256
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 1: longer fit for purpose. We know we need to get

257
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,079
Speaker 1: our mojo back. We need some decent ideas about how

258
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: to get there.

259
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 2: And tech people are quick to offer them. Look at

260
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,080
Speaker 2: Elon Musk's grand plan to make the US government more efficient.

261
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that hasn't gone so well. Unless you think

262
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,760
Speaker 1: just arbitrarily eliminating entire government agencies that do important work

263
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: is the way forward. I do not, But I've had

264
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 1: some really good conversations with people in and around our

265
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: own tech community who do care about New Zealand and

266
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: have ideas about how to shift the needle faster on

267
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 1: growth and tackle some of the big problems we face.

268
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 2: Andy Hamilton has spent the start of the year publishing

269
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 2: a series on LinkedIn looking at some of those problems

270
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,479
Speaker 2: and opportunities.

271
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: He's been around the startup scene for over twenty five years,

272
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: a big chunk of that time running the Ice House

273
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 1: in Auckland. He left there in January twenty twenty, just

274
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 1: before COVID arrived. Then he pivoted very quickly with the

275
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 1: entre Pat McFee and former boxer Monty Betham to create

276
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 1: the venture We Are Monarchy as the first lockdown hit.

277
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 2: It was like a support network for small businesses trying

278
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 2: to navigate the bewildering new environment, and it did some

279
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 2: great work in those intense months, but also became involved

280
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 2: in a pretty rancorous dispute which Andy Hamilton was at

281
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 2: the heart of. It has come through that, but clearly

282
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 2: some scars are there, and some self reflection and some

283
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 2: perspective on where he's going and where the country is going.

284
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 2: So let's hear those in Peter's interview with Andy Hamilton.

285
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: Andy Hamilton, Welcome to the Business of Tech. A lot

286
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 1: of our listeners will know you personally, at least know

287
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: your name. A real stalwart of the innovation ecosystem for

288
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 1: the last twenty five years. The founder of ice House,

289
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 1: which has been integral to assisting small businesses and startups

290
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: over the last twenty years. Co founder of ice House Ventures,

291
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: an investor in your own right, the likes of Mint Innovation.

292
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: Tell some of the other companies that you're invested in.

293
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think you know a couple of

294
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 3: things like I was the CEO found in CEO of

295
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 3: ice House, the first person that got hired and got

296
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 3: paid and ice House Ventures. I had a part to play,

297
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 3: but Robbie and the team rarely the ones that drove

298
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 3: that to the success.

299
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 4: I just enabled it. And sort of investments interesting.

300
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,680
Speaker 3: Power by proxy, credible company, blue Frog Breakfast would be

301
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 3: one of my most favorite ones. They Musley company, which

302
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 3: you know people would go, why would you invest in that? Well,

303
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 3: I've learned so much and I get to eat my

304
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 3: investment every morning. Other companies you know Midtimes, small investor

305
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 3: by ice House in quite a few, actually, Chatterist, which

306
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 3: is a new one right, which is doing some pretty

307
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 3: cool stuff around comments. That these founders have been able

308
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 3: to do is bring moderation, insight, engagement to that stream

309
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 3: because it is a hidden vault of opportunity for brands

310
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: if you can work with the crowd around your brands.

311
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 3: And you know, like a lot of other companies, I've

312
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 3: invested in small you know, I'm not a big check writer.

313
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 3: I'm a small check writer. I feel it gives me

314
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,400
Speaker 3: the opportunity to go on the journey and to help

315
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 3: a little bit more with those companies. And I think

316
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,320
Speaker 3: if you're not the founder, having the privilege to be

317
00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 3: able to be on people's journeys is a pretty amazing thing.

318
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've been on that journey with lots of companies.

319
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: A very different scene twenty years ago, the access to capital.

320
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 1: We didn't have all of these founders that were cashed

321
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: up from exits that really started with the trade means

322
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 1: and then Rod Drury, I guess, but what was it

323
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 1: like twenty years ago the scene compared to now.

324
00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 3: There wasn't an ecosystem to speak of. There were zemplars

325
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 3: offshore that we went and you know, we went to

326
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 3: Tech Coast Angels in San Diego, and you know, we

327
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 3: looked around in Singapore, China, in the UK, and I

328
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 3: think we just twenty years ago it was like, hey,

329
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 3: incubators are a thing. Hey, accelerators are a thing. Hey,

330
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 3: seed funds are things. And we just tried all those

331
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 3: things and I think, you know, it was disorganized but

332
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 3: with good purpose to try and make a difference to

333
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 3: help companies. And I think we just the secret was

334
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 3: doing lots of things and learning and failing in some

335
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 3: cases succeeding maybe doing more than we might or should have.

336
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,120
Speaker 3: But I think the result is that we built compound

337
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 3: contribution for founders and businesses that has had a big

338
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 3: impact over time. In the case of ice House Adventures,

339
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,680
Speaker 3: they've fundamentally created a moat and a marketplace where they

340
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:05,919
Speaker 3: have ridibly strong brand and reputation with founders and with investors.

341
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:06,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

342
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So that was a big part of your life,

343
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 1: you know, building that up, going on that journey. And

344
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 1: then I guess just before COVID, really you stepped down,

345
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: went out obviously still investing, consulting, and that we hit COVID,

346
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: and you do a really interesting thing. You set up

347
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 1: this platform called Manarchi, which I remember in the depths

348
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,879
Speaker 1: of lockdown watching the comments on that platform. You know,

349
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 1: bakers or small businesses trying to reinvent themselves with e

350
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: commerce overnight, really powerful thing. What was the impetus? You

351
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: and Pat McFee, how did you come up with that?

352
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 4: Look, it was three of us.

353
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 3: It was Pat, Monty Betham, and myself right and right

354
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 3: on lockdown. We sat there and Monty said, after we'd

355
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,880
Speaker 3: spent half a day helping with Indigo, their design agency,

356
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 3: sought themselves out from a cost base, renegotiate the rent

357
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 3: with the landlord, get the support to be able to survive.

358
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 3: Monty made the statement, he said, how we've just killed

359
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 3: it in half a day. How are other people coping

360
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 3: by doing this? Surely we could do something for them?

361
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 3: And that you know, it was Monty's leadership that led

362
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 3: us down the path of let's actually create something online

363
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 3: that enables people to ask for help and engage with

364
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: the community. Pretty simple idea that blew up.

365
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: And you know you're in there very actively offering advice,

366
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: helping people out. Pat Other people were as well, So

367
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: it really started something.

368
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 5: Was it envisaged.

369
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 1: As a temporary support network during really tough times or

370
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,199
Speaker 1: did you envisage it as something like, well, this is

371
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 1: actually showing us that small businesses need the support on

372
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 1: an ongoing basis.

373
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 4: I mean I think a couple of things.

374
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 3: The first thing that we the objective behind it was

375
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 3: to serve, so that there wasn't more behind that.

376
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 4: I think both.

377
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 3: Pat with his experience at Zero and my experience at

378
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 3: ice House, had always had in the back of our mind,

379
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 3: could you build, you know, a service model at scale

380
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: for small business because there's so many small businesses and

381
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: economies like New Zealand, so we had in our mind,

382
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be cool if you could do something at scale?

383
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 3: But when we started, it was just let's just get

384
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 3: up and help some people and see where we go.

385
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 3: And then you know, we got momentum and we rolled

386
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: and we pick up some contracts and you know, the

387
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 3: network started to build and we're like, wow, this is

388
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 3: pretty cool.

389
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 5: And then unfortunately it came undone.

390
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about this because this was

391
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: a pretty traumatic period of time for you that we

392
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: don't need to get into all the you know, there's

393
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: a lot of history to this story, but essentially, through monarchy,

394
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: you worked with other partners, you were accused, you and

395
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: pattern your colleagues of bad conduct towards treating them poorly.

396
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 1: That then steamrolled into a process at Callahan Innovation because

397
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: Monarchy was going for some contracts, which is as you'd

398
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: expect if you want to build this thing, and Callahan

399
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: is offering money, you put your hand up for that.

400
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: There was due diligence done on you, guys, and as

401
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: we found out later, the Order to General found that

402
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: that was a very bad process. Callahan made some major

403
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: missteps there, treated you poorly. Talk us through how you

404
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: felt through all of that. Here's someone at the heart

405
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: of the innovation ecosystem, has twenty five years been working

406
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: with these people very closely, and then you find yourself

407
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: in the middle of this really acrimonious stoush with Callahan

408
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: Innovation and others in the startup community.

409
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 3: I don't like to think too much about it because

410
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: I think it was it was a pretty stressful time.

411
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 4: I mean, it felt like war, and it felt like

412
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 4: you're fighting.

413
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 3: Against you know, the opposition that you couldn't find or

414
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: you couldn't see, and that's a part of the social pylon.

415
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 3: I think no normal human being could reflect on that

416
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 3: time and say they didn't regret it, because the evidence

417
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 3: is all there that it just, you know, what started

418
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 3: as something with good intentions ended up being a complete

419
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: mess for multiple parties, and so you know, I regret

420
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 3: that it happened. It was not enjoyable. And you know,

421
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 3: did we win at the end?

422
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 4: Do you know what? Who cares?

423
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 3: Because it's a moment in time. We got some things wrong.

424
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: We grew too fast, we were too loose, and we

425
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 3: had good intentions and we got let down by system.

426
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: But we let ourselves down in that. And you know

427
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean they were wrong and we were right.

428
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: It just means it got screwed up. And it's really unfortunate.

429
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: But you learn a lot, you know, as a you know,

430
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 3: when you're a CEO of an organization, you have all

431
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: this infrastructure around you. Then when you go soul, there's

432
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: no one to actually support you. But what was incredible

433
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 3: for us is people like Mike Heron, people like Andrew

434
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: Simmons came and supported us. And that was a real

435
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 3: gift to us that Pat, Me and Monty had an

436
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: amazing family behind us, but we had these people who

437
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: gave so much to us in our fight, Peter and

438
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: Deborah Hall as well. And so I think that's something

439
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 3: to look back on and reflect on and just go

440
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,959
Speaker 3: that's a life learning, but it's time to move on.

441
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 3: I still get the monarchy searchers on LinkedIn.

442
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 4: I get on the.

443
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: Weekly update saying four people looked at monarchy, which is

444
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 3: pretty fun.

445
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: Well, it is pretty cool because that is definitely part

446
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: of your legacy. At that crucial time for a couple

447
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: of years where people needed help, that was a go

448
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: to resource. So I think there's still a lot of

449
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: good will ye around that. Ultimately, you got an apology

450
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: from Callahan Innovation. I don't think you pursued legal action

451
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: in the end.

452
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: We could have and we would have won if we

453
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 3: sued them, But do you know what, what's the point?

454
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: You get the apology, take that, move on.

455
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: And we're in a situation now where that agency is

456
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: being disestablished. How do you feel about that?

457
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel that Callahan has always had a

458
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: hard road to hoe. I think it's had pretty poor

459
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: leadership over the time, but it will set up incorrectly

460
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: in my view, and I'm sad for the people you

461
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 3: know that go that are losing their jobs and moving

462
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: away from their own purpose driven jobs to contribute to

463
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: New Zealand. And so I feel no, you know, I'm

464
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 3: not sitting here smuggly going that's great that they're out.

465
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: It's unfortunate it's the way it is, but it's instructive

466
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: of the need in New Zealand for us to be

467
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: really focused on doing something that makes it contribution to

468
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: that ecosystem and our productivity and improving because we're in

469
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: the ship and we need to do things better.

470
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 5: We are in the shit.

471
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: And this is really why I wanted to have you

472
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: on because over the last six weeks or so, for

473
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: a month, you've been every day on LinkedIn, publishing some

474
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: sort of big ideas about how we can get out

475
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: of the shit, and very much focused on your area

476
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: of expertise, which is how do we do more around

477
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: our startups, around our innovative companies, because we know that

478
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: that's where the high value salaries are, that's where the

479
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: wealth has created, the knowledge economy. Stuff is the future

480
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: of New Zealand to some degree, to a greater degree

481
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: than it has been in the past. How do we

482
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: do more of it? And as you say, we've thrown

483
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: lots of things at the wall over the last twenty

484
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: five years.

485
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 5: Some of it's been very.

486
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: Productive, there's been some wastage and we've had rowan since

487
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, outlining

488
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: in stark terms he thinks most of it's been wasted

489
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: dollars two and a half billion dollars via Callahan innovation.

490
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: He tottered up, which he's saying quite rightly, how do

491
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: you measure the outcome of that? We're out a fork

492
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: in the road really now with this government has a

493
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: growth agenda. We're sort of coming out of a recession,

494
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: so there is an opportunity to do something.

495
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 5: Or not. I mean one of the things you float

496
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 5: here in your ideas.

497
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: Nothing is do nothing, which I think sort of Rowan

498
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: is sympathetic to, and so am I really is, if

499
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: you've got no really strong ideas, if you don't measure

500
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: things and draw learnings from those, why not just we're

501
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: known as a low corruption, reasonable taxation country. We've got

502
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: a very respectable business environment. Is that enough to allow

503
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: this to flourish? You really need to intervene.

504
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 4: I mean it is an interesting question.

505
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 3: I mean I think we should start with I Actually

506
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 3: you agree with the whole idea that if you did nothing,

507
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 3: what comes out more rocket labs, more share ease, more

508
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: lands attacks, more mints. I think that's a like if

509
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: we you know, if we could leave it and just

510
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 3: do nothing to achieve the outcomes that we need, then

511
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 3: I think that's a viable strategy. I suppose the question

512
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: is that I've posed. I don't think that's enough for

513
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 3: us to win. And I think we've got a serious

514
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: misalignment issue in New Zealand around our talent into our

515
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: productive enterprises, you know, and the quality of the talent

516
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: in our big firms. You would never go and throw

517
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: into a Halter or a sharez ease, They're just not

518
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: good enough managers and leaders in our large banks, telco's

519
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: electricity companies, and so I actually think we've got a

520
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: talent issue, and linked to that, solving that issue maybe

521
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: pools of capital. But I don't believe doing nothing alone

522
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: will be an enough to get us there.

523
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: But I could be wrong.

524
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of your ideas are very much

525
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: about we actively need to do something here around and

526
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: you're an advocate for sort of funding mechanisms, government funding

527
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: mechanisms to help our ecosystem grow. But I think one

528
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: of your big ones here at number five over index

529
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: on our people development attraction extension, let's scale up internships,

530
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: job work programs. So you've got, You've got this talent

531
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: base of management in our big companies, which is mixed quality.

532
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: But in terms of you know, the future Peter Becks

533
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: and the people behind Cherseys and those successful startups, how

534
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: do we get more of them better prepared, sooner to

535
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: go on that journey.

536
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the exciting thing is I look

537
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: at outset Ventures, which I said in you know often,

538
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: you know, weekly Daily, and the interns that go into

539
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: those companies, at ternary lands, at tech others, they're getting

540
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: a great opportunity because they're getting they're getting exposed to

541
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: a Sean Simpson, those interns. So I think there is

542
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 3: an absolute secret source around. You know, if you look

543
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: at Craig from Holter, he was inspired by Peter Beck

544
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: working as an intern at Rocket Lab. So I think

545
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 3: doing more of those things. You know, why would you

546
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: would you rather go and work for a startup as

547
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: an intern or go and work at the ben Z

548
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 3: Give me a break, right?

549
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 4: That to me?

550
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: If you're an engineer or a marketer, getting that opportunity

551
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: to go into a deep tech startup, and it's just you know,

552
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: so I think we need more of that. I also

553
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: think we need to supplement the growth of our people

554
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: by attracting product builders from offshore to come and do

555
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: their startups here. Because when you're around great people, what

556
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: happens You actually start to do amazing things because you're inspired,

557
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: you're challenged by them, and you know, it's a different

558
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 3: competition game because all of a sudden, you're going, Wow,

559
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: this is possible. It's not just a competence thing, but

560
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 3: it's also a belief thing.

561
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: ID twenty four issue an AI builder visa for a

562
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: New Zealand residency, so focusing specifically on AI expertise getting

563
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: that here.

564
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I think a couple of things in there.

565
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: I think, you know, maybe this is the randomness of

566
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 3: my ideas all that I forgot earlier on I talked

567
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: about a product builders visa, but then when I started

568
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: doing the AI strategy work stuff, I was like, we

569
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: should have an AI visa as well, specifically because I

570
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: just think we do need to look at future areas

571
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: and go, hey, if you've got AI competence and you'd

572
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 3: like to come and build, you know, in New Zealand,

573
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: we welcome you to come in. You know a but

574
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: like the Digital Nomad's visa, which that nomad's visa is

575
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: what everyone else is doing, and so we're just doing it.

576
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: So good, let's get it done that they can come,

577
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 3: but let's actually create a visa off that. That's for

578
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: AI founders who want to come and build their AI

579
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: business here. And hey, even crazy idea. If you've got

580
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: that AI visa, would we put some Aspire money alongside

581
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: or some co investment to enable you to get your

582
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: preceed right?

583
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 5: Yeah?

584
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: Well, you know, so that's you're marriaging no sort of

585
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: two things talent and capital there, which is what we need.

586
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: And I don't know to what extent the government is

587
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: actually proactively going out and looking for the right sorts

588
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: of people. I gets Entita and out of flagging this

589
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: in the US and Europe and Asia as well, But hey,

590
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: should we go out and look for the top one

591
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: hundred AI experts in the world.

592
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: I think that's an interesting challenging question because whenever government

593
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: does something proactively top of funnel you get, you can

594
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: get some unintended outcomes.

595
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 4: Like Peter Thiel apparently.

596
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think I don't know about that. I think,

597
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: you know, Entit tries to do a pretty good job

598
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: around promoting new Zealand and look, you know, but you

599
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: get more impact on your pipeline of investor migrants by

600
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: what has happening with the current administration in the US

601
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 3: from those people who don't like it, who want to

602
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: come here, than you would do if New Zealand tried

603
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: to be proactive. And so I think the answer to

604
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: that is we need to be really good when they

605
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: hit our websites, when they hit staff to show inquiry,

606
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: to make it really easy for people to assess is

607
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: this what they want to do, and then you know,

608
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: and then the processing. So I think I think they're

609
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 3: doing a good job around the promoting, but I don't

610
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 3: know about the proactive targeting. I just don't know whether

611
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: that always works the best, you know. I think what

612
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: we know with immigration is set clear criteria to the

613
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: market and let the market, including the immigration advisors, run

614
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: the cutter on that with their clients and show interest.

615
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 3: And I think it's a really good thing that they

616
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: dropped the English language requirements. Do you I do, because

617
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: I just think it's racist that, you know, whoever decided

618
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: to increase the you know that was fundamentally trying to

619
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: restrict investor margarets from coming out of Asia.

620
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 1: So talent and the associated investment incredibly important. We're doing

621
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: some things around that, maybe do more. Some big ideas

622
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 1: you have here, which is sort of in train idea

623
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: for we've got to bust the monopolies. The impact on

624
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: New Zealand's productivity.

625
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 5: It's massive, massive.

626
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: Banks, not Telco. Yeah, it is sort of two degrees

627
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 3: has got to love those people, grocery, hardware, electricity. We

628
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: have just got somehow somewhere. We went so wrong in

629
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: allowing aggregation of power in high market shares and I

630
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 3: think it's just impacting on New Zealand. How to solve

631
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 3: it is pretty challenging. I don't see this government busting

632
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: the electricity industry by separating generators and retailers, which is

633
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: what they should do, because they're conflicted because they own

634
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 3: half of the gent tailors themselves, the government, and they're

635
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: not going to say they would not like to give

636
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: up on those dividends. And so I think it's a

637
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 3: massive issue that's monopolies. I would love to see tex

638
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: Edwards appointed a commissioner of the Commis Commission alongside the

639
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: other I think the Commists commissioner are doing a good job,

640
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: but we've just got some major major issues with aggregation

641
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: of market. Power, pet you just got to regulate it's

642
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: the same. And grocery they've got to drive structural separation.

643
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: It's the same.

644
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: And hardware like we are as you know, I spend

645
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: quite a bit of time in Australia and we're just

646
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 3: so much more expensive, so much more inefficient. It's killing

647
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: us what we're doing as a country. You know, we

648
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: don't need thirty two lines companies. We need to like Yeah,

649
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: I just think it's a very interesting thing that the

650
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 3: impact of having bad market structure to New Zealand's productivity first,

651
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: secondly around creating an environment for innovation where startups can

652
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: come out of that could go on to be global companies,

653
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: because you know, one of the things I'd like to see,

654
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: you know, if the market cap of zero is so

655
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 3: many billion, rocket lab is so many billion, how many

656
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 3: of those do we need for New Zealand to be transformed?

657
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 4: Is it twenty? Is it fifty?

658
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 3: So when I actually think about success, I just think

659
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 3: fifty rocket labs.

660
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 4: That's crazy. But wouldn't that be amazing if we could

661
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 4: achieve that.

662
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

663
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: Another idea which is topical at the moment a better

664
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: tax system unpack that for us.

665
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: I think there's an opportunity to do things better, and

666
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 3: we should do things better, but you know, we have

667
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 3: to be mindful that we're doing this in a competitive world.

668
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 3: So what does you know, For example, do we want banks, groceries,

669
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 3: electricity companies pain are low tax rate? No, they should

670
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 3: be paying higher tax rate. But do we want the

671
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 3: likes of the rocket labs and others that are internationally

672
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: having a more effective tax you know payment. I think

673
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: that's a really interesting and challenging question. And I know

674
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: my mates at the IDEA will say, you're crazy, you

675
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: can't have a two tax system. But I think fundamentally

676
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 3: we've got a misalignment issue and we've got to find

677
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: ways to do that.

678
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: And traditionally no one has wanted to touch capital gains

679
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: because it will affects most of the wealth and New

680
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,959
Speaker 1: Zealand tied up in property. So you sell your house

681
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: or your second house, your rental house or something, capital

682
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: gains tax on that. But surely now this is the

683
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: point of differentiation for anyone other than the coalition government,

684
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: right if Labor puts that out there, We've seen the

685
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: pain that we're going through. We don't have enough money

686
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: to fund our infrastructure, our health sect there. It's only

687
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: going to get worse with an aging population, things like

688
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: climate change. Do you think New Zealand is starting to

689
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: wake up to the idea that this is a more

690
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: efficient way to fund the things that we need.

691
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: I think it is.

692
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: But you know, part of the challenge that we have

693
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: is that our leaders are not courageous enough. You know,

694
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: one of the reflections I had on the Monarchy Callahan

695
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: experience was we had a government culture that was not

696
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 3: prepared to admit they were wrong. And they were given

697
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 3: multiple opportunities in our dispute with them to just go, yeah,

698
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: we've screwed up. Let's find a way to resolve right.

699
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't they admit their wrong because they were too

700
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 3: worried what their board and their minister and their government

701
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: would say. There's a real endemic problem with admitting your

702
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: wrong and it's okay, as Rowan has said, it's good

703
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 3: to be wrong, and so we need that culture that goes,

704
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: this is not working, let's try something else. And I think,

705
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: you know, that's more leadership, more courage and you know,

706
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: I think more direction from our leaders to our officials

707
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 3: and agencies saying it's okay to screw up, you know,

708
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: learn from it. Yeah, And one thing I want to say,

709
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: I also think, you know, from a tax position. I've

710
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: always found it very odd that and founders can be

711
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 3: capital gains free, but an early employee in the first,

712
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: first year or second year of joining the startup, who

713
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 3: is not a founder or a co founder but as

714
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 3: close to it as possible, has to pay tax on their.

715
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 4: Esop or their outcomes.

716
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 3: Now I don't mind them paying taxes, but it's wrong

717
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 3: that a founder pays no tax and then someone who

718
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: joins his head of stack in the first.

719
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 4: Year has to pay the tax on that.

720
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: And the government is doing something in this space, but

721
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: it's token. Really, it's increasing the tax threshold a small amount.

722
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 4: But it was a joke what they did. It was

723
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 4: a joke. I was just like, are you kidding mesulting?

724
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 5: Really it is after all of that.

725
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 4: It's just stupid.

726
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 3: But a lot of people, unfortunately have good intentions in

727
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 3: Wellington around doing these things, but they have no real

728
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 3: understanding of how it actually works.

729
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 5: Make no difference.

730
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 3: It's like the fIF the foreign investor rules, which we

731
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 3: know are going to be changed. That they were well

732
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: intentioned idea around taxing your overseas income and deemed income,

733
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: but it had such a negative impact on foreigners coming

734
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: here and New Zealanders returning having to leave again because

735
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 3: of their tax bills.

736
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 4: We could do way better.

737
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 3: We're just going to be a lot smarter around the

738
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: ship we're doing because you know, it's a competitive world.

739
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: You know.

740
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 3: You look at my children, you know, and their age groups.

741
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what the number is of

742
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 3: their year thirteen's that are going to university in Australia

743
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: compared to five, ten, fifteen years ago.

744
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 4: It's way high.

745
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: Where all the kids coming out of finance degrees in

746
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 3: Otago and Canterbury want to go for their first job.

747
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: It's not Wellington, it's not Auckland. It's Sydney, bright lights,

748
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 3: big pay, great life, and they're not coming back to

749
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: New Zealand.

750
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 5: Eight twelve merge with Australia.

751
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, so kangaroo, let's go. No, that's

752
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: just me taking the person.

753
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: Maybe inspired by Donald Trump's fifty for his state being Canada,

754
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: but look, there is a good argument for tighter integration

755
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: with Australia.

756
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 5: We've got close.

757
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: Relations, especially from a defense perspective.

758
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we talked in last week's episode with Reuben

759
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Staff about this whether we should join AUCAST, for instance.

760
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: In his view as it's basically no brainer. It's either

761
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: that or iarmed independence with a decrepit military in New Zealand.

762
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: We've seen China in the South Pacific.

763
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 3: I find that one decision around August extremely difficult a

764
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: trade relationship with China, right, I find it extremely difficult

765
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: to I'm not competent enough about the consequences of each

766
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: In some regards, I just would prefer we stood on

767
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: the fence and didn't but I don't in this current environment.

768
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel like we're able to do that. So

769
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 3: it's a scary decision.

770
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you point out you want to get.

771
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 3: Onto the really controversial one around military service, don't you.

772
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 5: I do.

773
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: But first, just on the injet X, I think you

774
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: point out there that the market caps last year was

775
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty five billion, which isn't too bad

776
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: as a ratio of GDP compared to other countries. But

777
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: how about we get really aspirational, get a market cap

778
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: of the inst X that was one to one with

779
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: our GDP.

780
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: So how would you do that? Yeah, that's like is

781
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 3: that two and a half times what it is now? Yeah,

782
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: you know, you have to become valuable as a partner

783
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: to the growing companies like the Rocket Labs and others.

784
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 4: So how would you do that? You know? And I

785
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 4: don't think they've got any idea how to do that

786
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 4: at all.

787
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: When you see that the ASX actively here, they've got

788
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: an office here that's sponsoring the tech awards. They are

789
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: basically cherry picking the best we have and saying, come

790
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: and do it on the AX.

791
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 3: Well, and there is a simple reason for that. Why

792
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 3: because your tech company gets into a bigger market, a

793
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: bigger tam, higher valuations, deeper capital pools. Why do you

794
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: think zero listed in the AX? And so I think,

795
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: why do you know Volpara lists on the AX? I

796
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 3: mean fundamentally, it's access to bigger pools of capital, which

797
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 3: then suggests me, I know there's a negative to NZX

798
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: merging with the ASX, but what you know, what are

799
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 3: the pros that come from that that would enable our

800
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 3: board to have a market cap that's a lot higher. Again,

801
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: this is not saying in my view that NZX is

802
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 3: poorly run. It's saying we need a better solution around

803
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: our public market to support the growth of New Zealand

804
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 3: and New Zealand companies.

805
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: And it's sad that just the attractiveness of what's on

806
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: offer here is non area as great. It doesn't necessarily

807
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: have to be. I want to invest in New Zealand

808
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: tear companies.

809
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 4: Yep, it's an opportunity.

810
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 5: Yeah it is.

811
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get onto compulsory military service idea number sixteen.

812
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 3: Explain that well, you know, you see it in Israel, maybe, Norway, Singapore,

813
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: a number of other countries.

814
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 4: It was controversial when I put the idea out.

815
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: I've had a you know, quite a few people say

816
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: it's the most stupidous idea. What were you thinking? Context

817
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: is know me thinking what are initiatives that would make

818
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: a material difference to our economic performance. I wasn't thinking

819
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 3: about cost. I was thinking about service back to New

820
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: Zealand for a year or two year period to contribute,

821
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: for example, to our infrastructure problem by having you know,

822
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of kiwis contributing. I think I didn't

823
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 3: quite think through all of the costs and inputs, but

824
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 3: I can see the benefits that come to other economies

825
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 3: by having it. It wasn't about militarizing New Zealand. That

826
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: wasn't about that. But you know, it was like what

827
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 3: could make a difference to our GDP and also what

828
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 3: might make a difference to our culture over time. But

829
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 3: I didn't want us to be like Israel. We will

830
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 3: never be like Israel because we don't have the forces

831
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 3: that they do. We don't also have the volume of

832
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: scientists and engineers that they do. But you know, the

833
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 3: whole idea was what would make a difference to New

834
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 3: Zealand economically, And you know, I accept people's alternative views

835
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 3: that it would be stupid.

836
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you mentioned Israel.

837
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: I meant many tech people who their formative years were

838
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: in the IDF where they got to work on you know,

839
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: top level cryptography projects, all that sort of thing, which

840
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: led them to an to the startup world. That's a

841
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: different deal. They're very militarized nation, but just spending in

842
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: an early part of your life two or three years

843
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: doing this.

844
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 3: And I think you or I could argue against or

845
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 3: for those things, and the reality is that they're just ideas.

846
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 4: You know.

847
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: One of the things I would say that if the

848
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 3: starting point is we have an issue with our economic

849
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: performance and the capability and depth of our talent that

850
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: exists here and where it's been applied, you start to go,

851
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: if we were to do something, what would we do

852
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: that would make a difference, and that would make a difference.

853
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 3: Now would it have the right intended outcome that we're

854
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: looking for or would it be better than some of

855
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 3: these other ideas?

856
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 4: Don't you know? I don't know about that.

857
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not going to happen, right, And I think

858
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 3: you know that in my ideas, one of the things

859
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 3: I talked about was do nothing, which is a good

860
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 3: starting point, and do something.

861
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: Something question you finish off IDEA twenty six. I think

862
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: this is a really good call and it reflects what

863
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: Rowan and others have been saying on the podcast over

864
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: the last year or so.

865
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 5: It's really about execution. You know, you can have a.

866
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: Strategy in and arguably we don't really have a strategy

867
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: for innovation in New Zealand. We've got a bunch of

868
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: actions that they want to take, but execution is everything,

869
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: and part of that is measuring what we do and

870
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: having that ability and that willingness to fail to do

871
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: things quickly, fail fast as startups talk about. You mentioned

872
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: that earlier in the podcast, that appetite for risk and

873
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: getting things wrong. So how do we and this is

874
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: your call, I think to corporate New Zealand as well,

875
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: and it goes back to the competitive issues we have

876
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 1: with in our monopolies but also in corporate New Zealand

877
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: as well. How do we execute better because that is

878
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: part of our productivity issue as well.

879
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I think in the corporate land and you know,

880
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 3: the challenges is that there is no massive incentive for

881
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: them to be truly innovative when they're protecting their market

882
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: share and they don't want to.

883
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 4: Piss off the regulator.

884
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 3: So that's a structural problem that we have that needs

885
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 3: to be solved with the regulation and changing market structures.

886
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: When I think about government and you know, the culture,

887
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: you know, like I know that you know, a public

888
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 3: service agency CEO engaged with me after that post and said,

889
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: look look at our this is what.

890
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 4: We do around measuring all the things that we do.

891
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 3: And I was like, actually, that's fair enough in terms

892
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 3: of what you're saying, but I said, how are those

893
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: initiatives judged in the context of what we need in

894
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: the economy, and he acknowledged that actually we don't do

895
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: that from a portfolio perspective, and so I think that's

896
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: that is a really big challenge. But it goes back

897
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 3: to what you said. We have this culture that we

898
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 3: can't be wrong and we need to get over that.

899
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 3: You know, incubators are an example, they worked for a time.

900
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 3: Why do we still have them. Why do we have

901
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 3: tech incubators designed from experts out of Israel that are

902
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 3: so poorly designed, not fit for purpose continuing in this government.

903
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,959
Speaker 3: I don't understand that, Like any government minister that went

904
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 3: and talked to the market would be told they are stupid.

905
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: The model is so wrong, The cap tables are screwed up.

906
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 3: Good people and behind it. But you know, I even

907
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: heard yesterday that there is no intention from mb to

908
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 3: stop funding for tech incubators when they're screwed up. It's

909
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 3: just insane that we can allow this shit to keep

910
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 3: happening and there's just something wrong there. Where's the measurement

911
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 3: to prove it's a screw up.

912
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: Well, it's part of the problem, just that at those

913
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: really high levels and at minister level, we just let's

914
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: be we really haven't had switched on people in that

915
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: portfolio for a long time. Judith Collins was passionate and

916
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about it. Has been shifted on was over a

917
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: burden with too many portfolio has never really got a

918
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: teeth into it. We've never really prioritized having someone who

919
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: can really get to grips with these issues and have

920
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 1: influence around a cabinet table.

921
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: It does come back to leadership in the end around

922
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: the CEOs of our public agencies and leadership from the

923
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 3: ministers to enable these outcomes to happen. And you know,

924
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: we just have to be way more competitive. And so

925
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 3: I don't actually know what is the solution because we're

926
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 3: always going to have good, well meaning people in those roles.

927
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: That's probably why you kind I reach my conclusion that

928
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 3: goes it's better to do nothing than do it poorly,

929
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 3: and we're doing it poorly in so many places. And

930
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: that's why in some regards I'm pleased with the closing

931
00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: of Callahan, because some stuff is gonna stop and that's

932
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: a good thing.

933
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: Yet try and end on an optimistic I'll go on, no,

934
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 1: I know most of your families in Australia these days,

935
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: but you said to me earlier before we started recording,

936
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: your passionate about New Zealand.

937
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 5: To stay here.

938
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: You might spend more time in Ausie with you, with

939
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: your kids and brothers and that, but you're committed to

940
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: New Zealand, so you obviously see a recovery, see upside,

941
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: see a lot of value, and still being here.

942
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: I think there is no point in not having hope.

943
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 3: I think the other thing that I've learned through my

944
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 3: time at the ice House was, you know, there is

945
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: a culture of service because of what the country has

946
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: given back to me. I love this place, I love

947
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,959
Speaker 3: the culture. I get frustrated, but you know, you either

948
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 3: have a choice to fuck off and then look after

949
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 3: yourself and your family, which is a fair thing to do,

950
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 3: or you go what can I do to contribute? The

951
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 3: thing I find more interesting these days because I'm not

952
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: really part of the ecosystem so to speak, you know,

953
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 3: in terms of having a daily job, is what can

954
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 3: I do to support, which is just helping companies, and

955
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 3: so most of what I do is help one company

956
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 3: at a time find their path through. Separate to that,

957
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: I go, okay, what more could I do? By listening

958
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: to the players in the ecosystem around what they're frustrated

959
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 3: with and then trying to come up with solutions. And so,

960
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 3: you know, I think New Zealand does have hope. Like

961
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 3: you talked earlier on before, how cool is it these days?

962
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 3: You can go to ice Hou's Adventures or you know,

963
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 3: and invest by their portal. You can go to shares

964
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 3: eas you can put money into rocket Lab. You know,

965
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: all my daughter's portfolios, my wife's portfolio, my father in

966
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: law's portfolio, my portfolio have all got rocket Lab exposure

967
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 3: and you can just do that in a click. And

968
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 3: so I think we want to see more of that.

969
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,919
Speaker 3: And you know, I love seeing founders who are trying

970
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 3: to make it and break it and that's you know,

971
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 3: I want to keep doing that, and so I think

972
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: that's important that we all get in and contribute to

973
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 3: New Zealand.

974
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 5: Brilliant. Well keep it up.

975
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: You've had a huge influence on a lot of companies,

976
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: a lot of founders and integral to the health of

977
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: this ecosystem. So thanks for all your efforts and good

978
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 1: luck for your future investment decisions and mentoring the next

979
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: generation as well.

980
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 4: Thanks better.

981
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: Interesting guy, Andy Hamilton been just about everyone knows him

982
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: in one capacity or other in small business or the

983
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: startup scene. Has dealt with most of the startups that

984
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 1: were on the way up in the early to mid

985
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: to late two thousands and the twenty tens. Have you

986
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: had much to do with Andy?

987
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 2: No, I know, I've never met Andy actually spoken to him,

988
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: but you know, he's just he has one of those names.

989
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 2: And I did follow the We Are Anarchy story as

990
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: it unfolded at that time, so very interesting to hear

991
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: his perspective of how it all happened. And it was

992
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 2: very interesting to kind of hear the tone of his

993
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: voice because there was definitely some underlying bitterness and resentment,

994
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: I think, but there was a lot of philosophy in

995
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 2: there as well, and like just the kind of sense

996
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: of like that that was rough, Now, let's just try

997
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: and pick ourselves up and move on, which is I

998
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 2: think reflects really nicely into that attitude that he expressed

999
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 2: around you know, it's okay to have a hard time,

1000
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: It's okay for things to go wrong. It's about what

1001
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: you do after that, and we need to as a

1002
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:59,479
Speaker 2: culture be more accepting and understanding of that approach. So yeah,

1003
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 2: it it does seem to me that he is living

1004
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 2: what he preaches as well.

1005
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot has been written about the

1006
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: details of that whole episode around We Are Monarchy and

1007
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: in the GOO the agency that was doing a lot

1008
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: of sort of government work at the time that Andy,

1009
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: Pat McPhee and Monty Betham and others were involved in,

1010
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: so a lot of accusations flew there. I think, as

1011
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: Andy said, you know, the monarchy thing grew very quickly,

1012
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: so they didn't handle that particularly well. He went from

1013
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: being the CEO of an organization with an infrastructure around

1014
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 1: him to basically doing it as a startup and realizing

1015
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: that there's a lot more process involved than he thought,

1016
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: especially when you're dealing with government contracts. But ultimately the

1017
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 1: way they were treated was found to be really bad

1018
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: in an independence investigation. The agency at the height of

1019
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: the innovation ecosystem, Callahan Innovation, gave them a pretty raw

1020
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: deal and that has implications for them, particularly for Andy Hamilton,

1021
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: who has a reputation in the startic community. To be

1022
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: at odds with, you know, the biggest funding agency in

1023
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: that space is not a great place to be. But

1024
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: there wasn't much sharden fraud really around the demise of Callahan.

1025
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: I think he genuinely feels that they made errors in

1026
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: a much greater scale not related to his situation that

1027
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: needed to be addressed. It's the right thing for the country,

1028
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: and he's actually thinking about what is right for the country,

1029
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: which is why he's floated these twenty six ideas. Some

1030
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: of them are never going to fly, but I sort

1031
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: of feel we do in this whole area, you know,

1032
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 1: the innovation area, that we do need a melting pot

1033
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: of ideas at the moment because we've got some things

1034
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: that have been rolled out by the government with some consultation,

1035
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: but haven't been particularly well received by you know, really

1036
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: smart people in this community who know how to get

1037
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: things done. We do need that pressure now to be

1038
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: applied on ministers and the government to say, well, you

1039
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: floated this, but how are you going to do that

1040
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: without any funding? Or do you really want to pick

1041
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: winners over here? Isn't it better to fundamentally change the incentives,

1042
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: such as the tax system, to encourage the sort of behavior.

1043
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: That's the sort of conversation we need to have. A

1044
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: lot of those ideas aren't probably going to fly, being

1045
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: like compulsory military service, we had it decades ago, but

1046
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: really probably not top of people's lists in New Zealand

1047
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: at the moment.

1048
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would I would probably say the issue

1049
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: is the military side of it. If we said compulsory

1050
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 2: community service perhaps and we said and it maybe not

1051
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: even compulsory, maybe like heavily incentivized through some kind of

1052
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: funding to say we'll pay you really well for six

1053
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: months or a year to go and do some thankless

1054
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: task giving back to the community. It could be military service,

1055
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 2: that could be an option, but create a range of

1056
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: things that people can or must to do, you know,

1057
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: when they turn eighteen or whatever that actually teaches them

1058
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: about the value of work, of community, giving back and

1059
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: being part of something kind of larger in not in

1060
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: a nationalistic way, but in a community minded way.

1061
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think really he knows that one's not

1062
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,919
Speaker 1: going to fly, and you know, partly because it would

1063
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: be super expensive. That's probably the key reason why it

1064
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: was true it would cost the bomb. But it sort

1065
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: of goes to a lot of his ideas, which is

1066
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: around talents, which is building up really capable people. You know,

1067
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: I get the sensor and he's not that impressed with

1068
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: the management in this country of a lot of our corporates,

1069
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: and part of that is the monopolistic position some of

1070
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: them have. But the people inside those organizations, if you,

1071
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: for instance, put them in a startup, they would not survive.

1072
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: So how do we build this talent pool that helps

1073
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: us achieve more and how do we keep our people

1074
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: here and really invested in New Zealand. So I think

1075
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: that's where he's coming from with that.

1076
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think going back to the

1077
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: human centric thing as we talked about earlier, one of

1078
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 2: the things that really stuck out to me was he

1079
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: talked about you know people a lot, and I think

1080
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: that's really important and giving people the opportunity to succeed

1081
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 2: and fail and fail specifically and fail. And that goes

1082
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: back into the VC world in the startup world again,

1083
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: and we talked about it before, like if you don't

1084
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: have a community system, a social system that will allow

1085
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 2: for people to try and fail, that's not just set

1086
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: up to like, you know, get people in debt and

1087
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 2: extract value from their labor constantly and ring fence's innovation

1088
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: to people who are you know, already reasonably well funded,

1089
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: then you're never going to have that culture and that

1090
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 2: ecosystem grow at least not in the way that we

1091
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: need it to in this country. So yeah, that that's

1092
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: something that I thought really stuck out to me was

1093
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 2: his discussion around how do we raise up the people,

1094
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: how do we get the talent, how do we show

1095
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 2: people that they have talent, that they are capable.

1096
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, other stuff like the you know, the woeful

1097
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: state of our insiet X merging with Australia. Maybe not,

1098
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: but so much.

1099
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: Chat about that and business desk amongst the business people,

1100
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 2: Like once a month somebody goes like, what are we

1101
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 2: going to do with the z X?

1102
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 5: You have a chat about it.

1103
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just woeful at the moment. It's it's grim

1104
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: and we need a strong interdex or do we maybe

1105
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: we do you know, collaborate or a joint venture with

1106
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: the ASX to a greater degree, but that is a

1107
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: big constraint to raising capital.

1108
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to kind of talk about the interview

1109
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: because he just went over so much. So but I

1110
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 2: think like what we can take away from it is

1111
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 2: that people should be thinking about these things. It's not

1112
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: just about like taking on board whatever the political party

1113
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 2: says is the best idea. It's about going, Okay, well,

1114
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: what are all the alternatives? You know, It's that classic

1115
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: thing of like being an informed citizen and it is hard,

1116
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: but you know, take the time and have a think

1117
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 2: about it. I think is the real takeaway from Andy

1118
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 2: Hamilton there is like, here's a bunch of my ideas.

1119
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 2: I think some of them are probably dumb, but hey,

1120
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: like what do you guys think? I think that's the

1121
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 2: cool way to go about it.

1122
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So thanks to Andy Hamilton for coming on. You

1123
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: can find a link to his twenty six ideas on

1124
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: LinkedIn as a post there. We'll have a link to

1125
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: that in the show notes. You'll find them in the

1126
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: podcast section at business deesk dot co dot inj ed.

1127
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: You can stream the podcast there or download it and

1128
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: your podcast app of choice. Please leave us a review

1129
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: and subscribe while you're there.

1130
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: All the best, Bend. Thanks for everything. You've been a

1131
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: fantastic co host across nearly ninety episodes Off the Business,

1132
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: Off Tech, so we'll keep in touch. I'll look forward

1133
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: to having you back on the show sometime soon, and

1134
01:01:58,240 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: this time as a guest.

1135
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you very much. It's been an extremely wonderful

1136
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 2: learning experience. And working with you has been fantastic. I've

1137
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: learned a huge amount as well from you, so thank

1138
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 2: you so much.

1139
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: Peter, thank you, and you'll find me back here next

1140
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: Thursday with a very special guest doing some pretty extraordinary

1141
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 1: things in the area of telecommunications which could pay off

1142
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: majorly for MARI and the burgeoning Mari economy.

1143
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 2: I look forward to listening.

1144
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,959
Speaker 1: Thanks Ben, goodbye, signing out, and we will see you again.

1145
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 2: You will