WEBVTT - Episode 3: Mothers and Daughters 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.880 This podcast started with the story of Laura West, how 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.600 this blonde, attractive, promising young woman lost her life in 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.440 a car crash. You've heard how her death left a 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.520 young daughter without a mother and sisters grieving the loss 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.640 of their brightest light. And of course you know now 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:21.400 that Laura didn't exist, and that there was no car crash. Instead, 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:26.160 the crash, Laura, her sisters, and her daughter were all 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:30.960 just the creation of one woman, a woman called Natalia Burgess. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.040 In twenty ten, Natalia killed off Laura like a character 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.240 in an end of season soap opera. At that point, 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.280 Natalia had been creating online fantasy worlds and deceiving people 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.120 online for so long she had outlasted some of the 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.600 world's biggest social media companies. She's told me she started 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.080 doing this in two thousand and one when she was seventeen, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.800 and now Natalia is forty. But on the Internet she 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.400 can be whatever age she chooses to be, and for 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.760 a time, when she first put on the face of 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:08.200 character Laura Jane West, she was sixteen. In recent times, 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.160 she's used Crystal Jenice Photographs to create the person of 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.920 Kaylie Littellly, a twenty seven year old single mum. Sometimes 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.000 Kaylie has a different surname, but no matter the name, 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.919 the game remains the same. To live the life online 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.240 she feels she can't have in our real world with 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.120 those invented selves. She insinuates away inside the lives that 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.600 those convinced she is real, and once inside their lives, well, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.120 there's a reason she's called herself the puppeteer. She plays 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.200 with people's lives, and so far in this series, we've 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.480 been talking about the boys and men she's targeted, and 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.920 there's many of those stories to tell, but there were 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.200 other stories to tell, stories about others Natalia has fooled. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:59.440 Because for Natalia has not just boys and men. She's 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.240 also gone after families. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:06.280 She's a shadow stalker and she got so far into 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.880 my personal space. I don't trust people. It was like 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:11.840 she was. 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.079 Stalking you from Afarre, knowing every movie it had done. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.880 This is Emma and her mum Bernie, talking about their 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.320 encounter with Laura West and Laura's sister Abby, all characters 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.520 created by Natalia Burgess over about two years. Natalia breathed 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.320 life and reality into those characters, so much so that 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.120 she convinced Bernie and Emma that she was a blood relative, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:41.000 that she was Emma's cousin and Bernie's niece. Unlikely as 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.760 it sounds, it shows how completely utterly convincing Natalia can be, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.680 and just how good she is at taking the threads 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.000 of someone's life and weaving them into a convincing narrative. 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.000 To know about a family member I hadn't spoken to 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.079 and who he had passed away, people would go by 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.600 different Alis's but knew their proper birth name. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.279 It was part of a process that led to Natalia's 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.880 false characters becoming fully integrated into Bernie and Emma's lives. 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.280 Once inside their lives, Natalia then created scenarios and situations 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.600 that would turn Emma and Bernie's world upside down. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.320 Even to this day, I'm always looking over my shoulder. 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.160 I don't want friendships because of this. To watch my 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:31.680 daughter's self destruct on some silly little dream. This woman ad, 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:33.680 I'll never forgive it. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:37.800 With that control, Natalia put Emma and Bernie inside the 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:42.200 false world she created, then fed them a stream of scenarios, 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.040 some good, some bad, but all carried out by invented characters. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.680 Put mother and daughter on a roller coaster of emotions 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.800 as they were drawn through love, romance, heartbreak, and the 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.640 made up car crash that killed Laura West. We've heard 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.280 from a few mothers in their daughters so far. In 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.480 this case, the likes of Crystal and Lucy el Jenna 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.520 knew from the start of their interactions with Natalia that 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.920 they were dealing with a catfisher for Ebra and Bernie, 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.960 though they were lied to and tricked for years. It's 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.640 a type of catfishing wildly different to anything else we've 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.760 discussed so far in this series, and not like any 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.640 other case I've heard before. This is Chasing Ghosts the 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:30.159 Puppeteer and I'm David Fisher, an investigative reporter who started 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.839 trying to understand Natalia Burgess thirteen years ago, and every 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.280 time I think I'm getting close, something comes along that 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:46.960 completely changes the game in terms of volume. Natalia's false 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:52.120 characters churned through guys in depth and intensity, though she 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.960 seems to be looking for something else. I don't think 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.640 I understood this when our paths first crossed. I found 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.760 over the years when bring out an investigation into an 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:06.080 individual that a profile builds my head. The quirks Tech's 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.960 personality traits of the person on whom I'm intensely focused. 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.240 It helps build an understanding of who you're dealing with, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.159 to understand the reasons why your subject might behave in 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.440 a certain way. And with Natalia, I had such a 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.839 profile in my mind. It was built with interviews with 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.400 those she had interacted with and after spending hours with 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.960 her doing interviews, and the foundation of the profile I'd 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.960 built was what I'd learned that she was targeting young 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:37.000 teenagers online, and she created a carousel of characters through 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.400 which she engaged with those boys. Back then and for 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.520 years after, Natalia, in my mind, was someone driven by 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:47.839 an urge to connect with young teen boys for sexual reasons. 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:55.560 Now I think I know better there's something else driving Natalia. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.960 The turning point was discovering Bernie and Emma in New Zealand, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.720 who Natalia become involved with fifteen years ago. Until now, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:09.040 I'd seen Natalia as a predator. Now, for all the 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.240 pain she's caused, I see her differently. Emma was at 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.280 high school when she met Natalia online through the Laura 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.400 West character. Emma had not long had her first child, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.240 who has been looked after by Bernie, and trying to 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.760 adjust to the dual roles of being a teenager and 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:25.160 a mum. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.800 I received a friend's request on Facebook and then I 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.320 had a message in the message request saying to me, 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.120 I'm your cousin's cousin. I was like, okay, we've never 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.760 heard of you. And then I was asking her, you know, 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.719 how she knew my family and things like that, and 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.800 she was saying everything to the point where it was 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.520 like she was in the family and she knew too much. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.320 And then she said that we had already met where 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.120 men with hunaus and beerre just in passing generally. And 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.440 then she knew a lot about me to the point 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.599 where she knew my son's father. She knew the whole 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.720 family rite down to the tea. 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.280 Just in case there's any confusion. Natalia didn't know and 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:15.880 hadn't met Emma or Bernie. Let's also remember Laura West 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:21.239 isn't real. And yet Natalia was able to introduce family 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.720 facts and personal information that helped Ford's trust very quickly. 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.640 And that's even though Bernie was doing all she thought 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:31.080 a good parent should do. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.640 That was at that time where you know, Mum still 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.640 patrolled our facebooks and having that sense of security. Mum 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.160 was even given me the twenty questions like who is this? 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.440 I was like, well, she seems to be a cousin 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:47.320 of a cousin. So that's how you know. Mum got 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.720 on board because she ended up calling her Auntie. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.520 Bernie had ruled the computer stayed in the sitting room. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.160 She wanted to know who's at the other end of 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.440 the internet connection. She needed to know the part words 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.520 of kids' social media accounts, and she even insisted on 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.600 speaking on the phone to this Laura West, who become 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.760 friends with her daughter. None of that was a barrier 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:13.920 to Natalia. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.760 When she mentioned a family member that I hadn't spoken 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.000 to for at least fifteen years, that's oh, okay, you 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.000 do know, yeah, it must be the relation of that relation. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.520 I'll telling you something that you wouldn't I. She knew 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.080 so far into my life. She knew I had lost 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.560 my son and where he is laying at Reece. She 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.800 knew the cemetery, she knew the date, she knew a 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.880 date that was born. A lot of you know Emma's girlfriends, 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.640 they didn't know that because it was quite a while ago. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.400 But this is how first she got into my personal life. 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.199 Hook line and Catfish. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.440 It was like, my life consisted of messaging her twenty 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.760 four to seven because she was bringing tyme be a 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.920 life story, and I'd always say, oh, should we you know, hey, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:08.960 cous you know, because it got to the point where 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.280 I believe that your you know cousin, So I was 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:12.320 like calling your cousin. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.040 There were things that didn't add up. They were minor 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.199 and it wasn't until later that they were red flags, 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.200 seen only with the benefit of hindsight. For example, and 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:27.520 this is consistent with Natalia's targets. She avoided video calls 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.960 or FaceTime, and she would organize meetings in real life 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.240 only to have some drama emerged that meant that the 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:35.440 meeting couldn't go ahead. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.640 Oh you know, the car broke down or I'm too 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.719 junk to drive or what was the other famous one? 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:43.600 I miss the bus. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:44.560 I missed the buss. That's it. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.520 Yeah, And I was like, it's fair to say that 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.280 Emma was a volatile teenager. She was just sixteen at 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.439 the time that she met Natalia. When Natalie was around 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.640 a decade older. Emma thought she was bonding with a 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.360 long lost cousin who was the same age. Both of 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:05.280 them navigating their difficult teenage years. In reality, something different 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.079 was happening. As would emerge in the years to come. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.520 Natalie was soaking up the life experiences of Emma and 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:17.040 Bernie and incorporating those experiences into the lives of her 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.720 fantasy world characters, and as it became clear, she was 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.200 meddling in a dangerous and difficult stage of Emma's life 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.240 in a way that had significant repercussions. I've spoken about 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.240 the death of Laura West, the decision by Natalia in 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.199 December twenty ten to kill off the young woman that 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:41.280 she created, causing huge upset among those she bonded with online. Well, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.840 there are layers to this, and here's the first we know. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.600 Natalia posted news of Laura's death to Facebook, but when 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.320 it came to Bernie, she took a different track. That 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.760 morning of December sixth, Bernie's phone rang. 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.960 Every run Mom and I are to mess. We thought 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.920 it was a genue when light cry for like grieving. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.120 You know, So Laura is dead and my mom was like, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.360 what do you mean she's dead? We were just talking 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.520 to the other day. She was like, no, shared a 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.760 car crash and she's dead. They deal with the ICU, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:15.800 but she didn't make it. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:20.640 Laura's gone. So this is Abby still Natalia, but using 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.320 a different voice. This is Abby who's messaging and speaking 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.960 with Bernie and Emma. This is right in the middle 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.640 of the shop. News of Laura's death, and Abbie's contact 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.120 has a particular purpose. 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.200 How do I plan a funeral? Got no idea? You know, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.000 she would want it this way. What she says, she goes, 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.199 I would like you and your mom to carry her, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:42.800 you know, stowed away. Well, there's no parent that she 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.600 took her a pearance or no. No, she didn't talk 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.720 to her a parents, So we were like her parents. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:49.640 Where were all she had about me? 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.720 At the time. Emma wasn't at home. Remember I described 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.839 her as a volatile teenager. She was juggling a lot. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.720 And there was an event one which Natalia is believed 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.520 to have instigated, that led to Emma leaving home and 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:07.320 living elsewhere. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.600 And then I've got a message or a phone call 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.720 at the home saying she's dead. Your cousin is dead. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.000 And no, that's sent both of us spiraling. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.760 In that event that Natalia is believed to have instigated. Well, 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:27.360 that was about Peter Russell. Remember Peter He was Raywan 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.240 Ford's son who took his life in twenty ten. Rayman 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.400 has forever linked his suicide to Natalia, entangling him in 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:40.320 a rollercoaster relationship with Laura West, though no official inquiry 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.440 has offered any reasons that can be published. Certainly, I 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.959 know from covering many coronial hearings there's almost always multiple 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.680 reasons for suicide. Well before the relationship with Peter and 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.080 Laura came Peter and Emma. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.360 So me and Peter we met randomly. I think it 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.360 was as I was always at his house in christ Church. 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.280 We were on and off for a wee back, you know, 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.480 so excited young love. I was like, oh, got someone, 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.160 and she was like, oh, you know, asking the twenty questions. 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.520 Trying to be that so called protective family member. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.600 Emma told Natalia all about Peter, including his name. 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.400 And then all of a sudden, she's I've got to 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.800 be a partner now. I'm like, she was almost to 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:25.400 the point where she had to. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:26.280 Have what I had. 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.360 Me and Pete drifted away, That's right. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.880 Laura West cut in on cousin Emma, and. 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.559 Then we just started drifting away. And then he said 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.760 to me and am I was like, what's up? And 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.840 he goes, I thank I'm falling in love with this girl. 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:42.600 And I was like, you need to follow you, you 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:43.520 need to do what you need. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.200 To do well teenage Emma. It was devastating but troubling 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.920 too to see the changes that came over Peter in 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.839 that difficult online relationship. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.200 He was like a schoolcad all over again, for like 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:55.960 its fierce love. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.560 He proposed, she accepted, then rejected the proposal, cup and 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.640 got together again and then broke up again. It was 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.640 all the drama all the time, and the change to 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.320 Peter was there to see. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.719 A huge, huge m back, like and it's like he's 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.880 lost as well, like isn't doing do anything? He didn't 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:17.839 he on benders. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:19.200 I still remember a. 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.880 Message I got from me. He goes, well, she's she's 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.120 broken up with me again, but I think this times 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.920 for real. I'm just going to go on the bender 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.240 and just ended all. I vividly remember that message and 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.200 I was trying to talk him out of it, and 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.480 then I called him his nickname and he goes, I 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.280 need to wake up from this, Like how can a 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.000 girl take advantage of me? You know, I lost everything 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.280 I gave her everything. It was hard. It was really hard. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.960 He wasn't himself or he had There was a complete 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.960 empty shell to the person that I fell in love with. 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.560 It was quite scary to think, you know, this big, bright, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.080 bubbly personality that he always had, you know that eOne 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:01.440 knew you for, and it's just empty, like completely and utterly. Indeed, 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.920 Emma was hurting but locked it down. She was determined 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.560 to give them space, not to be that ex girlfriend. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.400 But all the time she was nursing pain. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.400 That's when Abbie came, and you know, Emma was hurt 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.040 of what happened. And I was watching this unfold. But 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.520 Emma and her persona of a front that I'm okay, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:23.600 but she wasn't. 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.960 Bernie's take on it, in hindsight was that Natalie wasn't 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.160 getting whatever it was she was looking for from Emma. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.040 So all of a sudden, we've got a new person 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.640 coming into play, and that was Abby. And Abby seemed 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:43.680 very genuine, more so than any of the other people. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.360 Abby she was so genuine, like she was trying to 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.560 say how she was disgusted how her mate ye made 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.000 Laura had done what she'd done, Like she was like, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.280 you know, one of those high school friends, like backstabbing 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.360 her best friend to her deserve it, Like, yeah. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.160 She was real, She's just so manipulating. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:09.320 Believable, Yeah, she was believable. Bizarrely, this conflict between characters 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.000 played out online, Ernie and Emma watching as Laura's friends 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.359 turned on her, remonstrating, yeah, we were just watching. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.320 It on face you know, you hop on Facebook or 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.760 whatever it was at the time, and you'd watched this 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:29.960 fight going on like Keyboard Warriors, but didn't. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.080 Realize it was the same person. 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.000 And one was. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.560 Saying this, one was saying that, and then this one 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.160 would back off off, and it was just blowing up, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:39.920 and you. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.320 Actually believed it was real. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.400 That was a wait, and it added to what Emma 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.560 was already dealing with the death of a friend in 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.560 a car crash. It was later that she realized the 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.240 real world tragedy in early twenty ten served as a 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.520 template for the death of Laura West. 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.640 But it was quite weird because it was the same 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.400 kind of car crash that actually happened to a lateral 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.159 life friend, real person, and she genuinely died in the 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.280 car crash. It was you know, I still get over 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.159 pet and then all of a sudden, I'm grieving for 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.760 this cousin that I'd never met but was really close with. 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.840 So you know, she was playing on our emotions with 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:21.240 that one. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:27.280 It's like she got into our emotions and she knew 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:31.600 our stories of our friends and our family, and she 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.480 could worm me way into that story and make a 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:35.800 fiction story of it. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:36.639 It was crazy. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.280 It was like she knew where to hit us where 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:39.680 it hurt. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.280 For Emma, this was a time of profound instability. There 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.679 were aspects of her behavior that made it, for a 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.919 time impossible for her to be at home, and with 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:55.480 Tatalia in the mix, that volatility increased exponentially. I asked 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.800 Emma what the impact was on her, but it was 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.560 a mum Bernie who spoke first, self distruct Yeah. 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.280 Literally, I went down the path of what stealing, getting 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.200 locked up all the time. I was like so close 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.560 to going jail, so close to going jail. I was 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.160 getting towards the alcohol became alcohol depending at seventeen, just 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.560 running myself into the ground like I was over. I 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.920 was going to go join them, and I was at 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.440 that stage I couldn't take any more, and then turned 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.440 into the drugs as well, and I turned to the drugs. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.120 I was watching my daughter self destruct and there's nothing 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.400 like go out of this. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.960 This woman destroyed my family. I was so close to 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:41.040 losing my daughter. 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.879 There was a drunken stumble by Natalia that New Year's 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.119 Eve when she introduced herself with her own name. She 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.960 talked fast to paper over the cracks in her story, 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.160 Emma and Burnie recall, but it did create a seed 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.680 of doubt. And then came the reporting about four months 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:04.040 later who was really behind the face of Laura West? 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.639 And the truth was out. But even though that reporting 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.960 was followed by police chargers and at court hearing, Emma 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.440 still found herself struggling to believe it was all fake. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.720 I was disgusted, like and still believing that she was 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.320 my cousin, like she'd manipulated me that much. I was like, Nah, 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.200 that's my cousin, and like, no, that's this not who 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.720 she is, This is my cousin, Like I wanted to 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.560 protect there at saying zion, I don't know why, but 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.000 I was shocked and I'm thinking, well, okay, there's so 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.400 many unanswered questions at the same time, so I. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.639 Was I don't know, I was shell shocked. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:47.360 I was numb, and I probably a lot of gelt. Yeah, 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.359 I lived with the gelt because I felt I'd put 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.560 my daughter through as it was like a grief. 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.080 It really is like a grief proving all these family 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.960 members and friends that really real. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.360 Yeah, and to realize, you know, someone had done this 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.320 to my family and even to this day is still 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.200 doing it within the mind. 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.480 The relationship between Emma Bernie and Natalia as Laura lasted 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.240 for nearly two years, but ended when I exposed Natalia 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.200 and the Hero on Sunday. You know the story by now, 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.399 that Natalia went to jail, I thought she would stop 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.760 her puppeteering and then founded twenty twenty two. She was 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.840 masquerading as others. But not only did she start targeting 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.520 men again. Once Natalia got out of jail, she set 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.560 her sights on infiltrating another family and just like the men, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.040 she now turned to Australia, landing in Adelaide, where she 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:50.280 found mother and daughter Danica and Lisa Danika Baxter. Like 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.400 Emma met Natalia while she was at school. By her account, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:56.200 this was twenty sixteen. 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:01.760 I met so in a friend's Facebook group, so like 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:07.600 just wanting friends. Then she started messaging me under a 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.359 name called Kaylee. Then we headed off pretty well. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.480 Kaylie said she was a decade older than Danneka, who 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:18.840 was sixteen at the time. In reality, Natalia at that 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.840 time would have been around thirty two. This time, Natalie 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:27.120 was using the name Kaylee. Remember that friend Emma actually 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:32.040 lost in a car crash. Her name was Kaylee. Natalia's 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.880 fantasy world had taken a different direction since jail here 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.359 in twenty sixteen is the earliest I've found where she's 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:43.840 using Crystal Jenner's image. Around that time, she created a 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.720 new cast of characters. She told Daniker and Lisa she 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.960 had a daughter, Lily Rose, and as time went on, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.040 linked herself to the well known family from Auckland, the Littalis. 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.560 Daniker is now twenty four, but she and her mum 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.560 remember the woman they knew as Kaylie Rose or Kaylee 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.560 Litelly was that kind. 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:05.960 Of normal like mom life. 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:11.000 She was blonde from New Zealand, very pretty, oh yeah, 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:16.000 very pretty, treated us as her own sample like kept 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.760 calling me her little sister, like auntie to. 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.760 Her daughter, and then like my mom, her mom. 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:23.480 Yeah. 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.679 It was like felt so real, so much that This 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.240 is familiar from speaking with Emma and Bernie. 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.520 Oh God, were talked about how literally answering the whole 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.880 entire life. She's backs on me in my life, all 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:40.080 my exys, my grandma, that Sazi passed away, and my 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:44.919 niece sent photos to each other. She'd message down ink 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:45.720 one minute. 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:47.680 And then she said, I'm like, oh, were you talking 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:50.440 to Kaye? And then she'd hang out, but then she'd 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.400 talk to me and yeah, or some jobs together. 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.000 She kept messing us Nelly every day, yep. And if 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.720 Danny your head a roun like we had a fight, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.119