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Speaker 1: Cura. I'm Susan Nordquitzt and for Chelsea Daniels and this

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Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. Provincial New Zealand is Hurting. Alliance Group

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Speaker 1: is proposing to close its Timidoo meat processing plant in

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Speaker 1: Smithfield with a loss of hundreds of jobs, and earlier

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Speaker 1: this month, Windstone Pulp International said it would close two

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Speaker 1: mills near Ohokuni, which will see two hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: people lose their jobs. To discuss the impact facing small

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Speaker 1: towns in New Zealand and if there's a way out

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Speaker 1: from them today on the Front Page, we are joined

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Speaker 1: by doctor Sean Connolly, senior lecturer at the School of

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Speaker 1: Geography at the University of a Targo. Sean, what are

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Speaker 1: the ramifications going to be for those small centers who

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Speaker 1: are facing the loss of major employers.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think in the first instance, it's a period

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Speaker 2: of crisis and people feeling all kinds of uncertainty around

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Speaker 2: what their futures look like. That's on an individual level,

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Speaker 2: but also for the wider community. It's likely that those

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Speaker 2: that are able to will move and they'll find work elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: They'll take their skills elsewhere, but that not everyone will

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Speaker 2: be able to move, and they'll be quite worried about

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Speaker 2: their economic future and their livelihoods. Overall, likely to see

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Speaker 2: a decline in the younger population, they're more likely to

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Speaker 2: move to other opportunities. So you see an out migration

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Speaker 2: of younger people, people with families, and that could have

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Speaker 2: the flow on effect on the viability of some schools

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Speaker 2: and some more rural and remote places.

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Speaker 1: What does history show us about the impact of big

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Speaker 1: businesses leaving smaller centers.

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Speaker 2: Often in the smaller places that are very much resource

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Speaker 2: dependent or in this single industry pen see a rapid

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Speaker 2: population decline and it takes quite a while for that

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Speaker 2: to stabilize at a much lower population level, much lower

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Speaker 2: level of economic activity.

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Speaker 1: Sean, one of the major concerns is going to be

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Speaker 1: around population decline in these centers. What would a mass

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Speaker 1: exodus of people mean for a community.

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Speaker 2: Once you have a substantial out migration from a community,

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Speaker 2: it really starts to question the viability of the town

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Speaker 2: in the future. You've got issues around the viability of

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Speaker 2: health services, whether that's doctors at pharmacy, pharmacists or schools,

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Speaker 2: and whether that's sort of closing classrooms and losing teachers

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Speaker 2: or the closure of entire schools. You see the out

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Speaker 2: migration of people that are volunteering in the community, so

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Speaker 2: you won't have as many people volunteering for sports clubs

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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, and a real impact on

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Speaker 2: the ko U and sort of the social networks in

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Speaker 2: those communities. So it is really important to avoid or

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Speaker 2: to manage decline in such a way that this crisis

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Speaker 2: period doesn't lead to a self fulfilling downward spiral.

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Speaker 1: Is that your fear with some of these.

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Speaker 2: Towns, some of the smaller towns. Yeah, certainly, once you

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Speaker 2: reach a certain critical mass, the options for the future

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Speaker 2: get narrowed much quicker. But that doesn't mean that it's

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Speaker 2: sort of that it's all lost. There are communities that

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Speaker 2: have rallied around and saved their health services, for example,

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Speaker 2: and set up their own trust so that they run doctors'

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Speaker 2: offices and health centers and pharmacists to maintain that level

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Speaker 2: of service in the community. Because I think it's important

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Speaker 2: to remember that these small towns don't exist in isolation.

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Speaker 2: They are a critical service provider for the much wider

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Speaker 2: rural district that rely.

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Speaker 3: On heart break and devastation tonight for Ruape District communities

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Speaker 3: in this central North Island. It follows confirmation this afternoon

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Speaker 3: that the region's biggest employer is closing its two mills

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Speaker 3: with the loss of around two hundred and thirty jobs.

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Speaker 3: The Kuriyoway pult Mill and tounguy Wi Sawmill are located

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Speaker 3: along State Highway forty nine. The shut down a massive

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Speaker 3: blow for nearby communities like Wayuu or Hakune and rights he.

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Speaker 4: A terrible day for meat workers and tomorrow that's right.

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Speaker 4: Alliance Group has announced its proposing to close its Smithfield

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Speaker 4: Meat Works. If confirmed, sheep meat, calves and night shift

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Speaker 4: venison processing will stop at the end of the season

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Speaker 4: and the remaining venison at the end of the year

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Speaker 4: at the latest. The Timidoo plant employs more than six

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Speaker 4: hundred people at peak season. Mayor and Nigel Bowen says

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Speaker 4: it's a proposal that will deeply hurt the community.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: State sen Zed says areas like the West Coast and

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Speaker 1: Southland could lose population over the next few years. What

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Speaker 1: other towns are at risk of seeing population declined lines

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Speaker 1: and why do you think that is so?

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Speaker 2: If you look at the profile it is relatively uneven

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Speaker 2: the small towns and rural centers. A lot of the small,

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Speaker 2: more isolated communities in the central North Island, on the

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Speaker 2: West Coast and in Southland are seeing population decline, but

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Speaker 2: that's not uniform. There are some places that are located

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Speaker 2: within the commuter belt of the larger cities that we've

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Speaker 2: seen some growth in. We've seen other places that are

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Speaker 2: actually struggling to deal with growth because of the physical

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Speaker 2: amenities of a place, the tourism potential retirees moving out

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Speaker 2: of the city to some of these places as well.

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Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that many people, especially

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Speaker 1: those in urban cities, don't really consider a lot of

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Speaker 1: these towns that we're talking about arry the tourists spots

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Speaker 1: or the towns that we drive through to get somewhere.

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Speaker 1: In your opinion, what is the importance of having thriving

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Speaker 1: small towns.

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Speaker 2: They play a really important role. We often forget that

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Speaker 2: the smaller towns, towns of ten thousand people or less.

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Speaker 2: Just under twenty percent of our population lives in these

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Speaker 2: kinds of communities, so there's lots of employment activity, there,

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Speaker 2: lots of businesses, and they're a key driver for our

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Speaker 2: GDP in terms of the tradable not so much the services,

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Speaker 2: but the goods really rely on the services that those

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Speaker 2: small towns provide, and so they do play an important

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Speaker 2: role in a social sense sort of just the value

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Speaker 2: of those communities in those places, but also in an

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Speaker 2: economic sense, we really need that divers city of cities,

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Speaker 2: towns and smaller rural communities.

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Speaker 1: Given the imports that you place on small towns. What

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Speaker 1: was your reaction to the proposed closure of the meatworks

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Speaker 1: and Timorrow and the mill closures in the North Island.

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Speaker 2: Feel bad for the people people affected, certainly, and those communities.

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Speaker 2: It's likely to have a greater impact on those towns

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Speaker 2: in the North Island because they are smaller. Timuru is

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Speaker 2: a more diversified economy, but that's not the case elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Is diversity the caving.

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Speaker 2: I think we really need to be having a conversation

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Speaker 2: about do we value small towns in our rural communities

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Speaker 2: or are they too important to be just left to

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Speaker 2: market forces. Right now, we've got policy and planning that

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Speaker 2: is almost entirely geared towards this assumption that everywhere will grow,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have the necessary policies to deal with decline,

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Speaker 2: How do we ensure that public services, infrastructure can all

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Speaker 2: be maintained so that people still living in these rural

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Speaker 2: communities can still maintain a high quality of life, can

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Speaker 2: still provide for their well being. That's not something that

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Speaker 2: can be left just to rates. I don't believe.

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Speaker 1: You. May remember a few years ago, economist Shamawil Jakub

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Speaker 1: said that many small towns in the country resembled places

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Speaker 1: in the Third World, with a loss of small town

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Speaker 1: functions and populations, creating zombie towns that need to close.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fear description in your view?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think it is. I think zombie town

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Speaker 2: discussion was really useful in terms of drawing attention to

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Speaker 2: alter Roa's rural towns. It did shine a spotlight on

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Speaker 2: the fact that they are often ignored and take it

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Speaker 2: for granted. But the reality is those small towns in

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Speaker 2: absolute decline are really not the norm. We often see

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Speaker 2: periods of decline then and stabilization, and so I guess

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Speaker 2: I would like to see the conversation moving towards how

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Speaker 2: can we best support stabilization in a new context. If

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Speaker 2: industry is going to close in these towns, how do

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Speaker 2: we support those that remain behind, that want to remain behind,

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Speaker 2: how do we ensure that maintain their quality of life

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Speaker 2: they still have access to the same level of services

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Speaker 2: and that's not something I think that can be left

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Speaker 2: entirely to the volunteer capacity of those communities themselves.

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Speaker 1: And could that support come from central government? Could they

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Speaker 1: play a role here in saving some of these towns,

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Speaker 1: and if so, how can they do that?

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Speaker 2: I think in part it is thinking about the resources

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Speaker 2: that central government has and how they're allocated to communities.

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Speaker 2: We know all across the country that rates are rising

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Speaker 2: as communities both small and large, struggle to deal with

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Speaker 2: crumbling infrastructure and infrastructure deficits and upgrading pipes and roads

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Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing, and that can't be

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Speaker 2: just based on rates. Sort of the tax system needs

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Speaker 2: some looking at as well.

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Speaker 6: Reefton is possibly the last true left in New Zealand

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Speaker 6: and how to describe a count was as it was

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Speaker 6: when we were young, and where there is a kinship,

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Speaker 6: where there is a care for each other, but you've

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Speaker 6: got all the basic services that you need to be

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Speaker 6: able to live life. What I love about it is

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Speaker 6: that during the day she has flat out Refion is

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Speaker 6: the gateway through the Westerns. All the shops are doing well,

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Speaker 6: the key rooms, all the food outlets, and then at

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Speaker 6: about five o'clock you would stand in the middle of

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Speaker 6: the road, the middle of the state highway and have

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Speaker 6: a natter.

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Speaker 1: There are some success stories, though, aren't there. Reefed And

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Speaker 1: being an example of a town that was facing a

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Speaker 1: decline in their population and they've managed to turn around

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Speaker 1: their fortunes. What was their secret?

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Speaker 2: So Reefedon's an example where they faced a process of

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Speaker 2: declining population through loss of government services, changes in the

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Speaker 2: mining industry, and closure of some minds the feast population decline,

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Speaker 2: and they were able to restable lies and reorient sort

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Speaker 2: of the purpose of the identity of that town through

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Speaker 2: process of local leadership, lots of effort and local volunteers,

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Speaker 2: people working together to position Reefton as a nice heritage

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Speaker 2: town and sort of building on the physical attributes of

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Speaker 2: that place. It helps that it's not too far from

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Speaker 2: christ Church, so it can capitalize sort of the weekend

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Speaker 2: domestic tourism. But it has been successful in people that

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Speaker 2: grew up in Reefton back to town and it's largely

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Speaker 2: focused on a livability kind of focus. It's a nice

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Speaker 2: place to live, the quality of life is good, it's

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Speaker 2: perhaps more affordable than some of the urban centers. A

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Speaker 2: nice combination of the physical amenities and the location of

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Speaker 2: that town, but also a lot of hard work and

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Speaker 2: effort and local leadership in Reefdoon over many years.

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Speaker 1: Do some small towns need to develop something they are

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Speaker 1: well known for, like how Almadu has its steampunk festival

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Speaker 1: every year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of examples of places trying to

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Speaker 2: differentiate themselves. I remember a number of years ago Westport

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Speaker 2: put up billboards in christ Church talking about how cheap

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Speaker 2: the housing was in Westport to try and attract people

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Speaker 2: to move. The Kitangata in the South Island a number

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Speaker 2: of years ago was offering housing and land package. That

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Speaker 2: got a lot of attention and has attracted a few

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Speaker 2: new families to that community. So yeah, there's there's things

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Speaker 2: that can be done. I guess I would just question

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Speaker 2: how can those communities be supported rather than be just

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Speaker 2: left to their own devices.

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Speaker 5: I mean, in Amaru since two thousand and seven senergy

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Speaker 5: was lifting then and then the steampunk came along, and

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Speaker 5: the ups the ocean came along, and it's just really booming.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 7: Drove down to the Bigrodi one from Dunadin, there's a

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Speaker 7: lot of steampunk is in the We call it the

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Speaker 7: Stame Park Capital of the world. I'd like to refer

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Speaker 7: to as just the place of pilgrimage because it's so

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Speaker 7: blink and difficult to get to.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we care enough as a country about

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Speaker 1: these small towns?

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Speaker 2: Probably not enough. I think we hear these stories about

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Speaker 2: industry closure, and we care about the impacts on the

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Speaker 2: individuals that are affected and the families that are affected.

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Speaker 2: But there's no sustained attention on those communities.

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Speaker 1: And if we don't have these tough conversations, could we

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Speaker 1: see a country littered with ghost towns.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and we already see that our major centers

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Speaker 2: are struggling to deal with growth, and many of our

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Speaker 2: small towns are really struggling to deal with growth. You've

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Speaker 2: got places like Cromwell, for example, where there's really acute

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Speaker 2: housing shortage, dealing with the growth pressures of Queenstown and

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Speaker 2: elsewhere in Central Attagraph. So I guess the question is

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Speaker 2: do we want to abandon our small communities where they're

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Speaker 2: already is infrastructure, there's schools and facilities and all that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing and just concentrate population in intellct centers

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Speaker 2: or have that population distributed and supporting a lot of

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Speaker 2: the primary industries and the rural economic activities that are

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Speaker 2: happening in the rural places that are a significant component

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Speaker 2: of our economy.

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Speaker 1: Just finally, Sean, is there a silver bullet solution here

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Speaker 1: or is it a case of accepting perhaps a population

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Speaker 1: decline and helping these towns adapt to what may be

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Speaker 1: a new normal.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of discussion about right sizing

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Speaker 2: rural communities all around the world. We can't have this

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Speaker 2: assumption that absolutely everywhere will will continue to grow. It's

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Speaker 2: just not going to happen. So the key thing is

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Speaker 2: what can we do to make sure that people's quality

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Speaker 2: of life, no matter where they're living in New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: can be maintained. How can they be supported?

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us Sean for this episode of the

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Speaker 1: Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and

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Speaker 1: extensive news coverage at inz Herald dot co dot nz.

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Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells Van Goodwin

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Speaker 1: as a sounder engineer. I'm Susie Nordquist. Subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.