Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Artificial
Speaker 1: intelligence will likely end up touching every aspect of our days,
Speaker 1: but what about our love lives. It's a growing trend
Speaker 1: with men and women seeking companionship with a chatbot, some
Speaker 1: experts saying it could soon become normal to have an
Speaker 1: AI partner. This kind of online world has remained largely
Speaker 1: hidden from the mainstream until recently, but a lack of
Speaker 1: regulation in New Zealand at the moment means that children
Speaker 1: as young as thirteen can spend hours chatting with their
Speaker 1: new AI friends. Today on the front page ends at Herald.
Speaker 1: Reporter Eva Diong is with us to explain this worrying trend.
Speaker 1: Even so, how widespread is having a romantic or emotional
Speaker 1: connection with an AI chatbot?
Speaker 2: Do you reckon?
Speaker 1: People would find it quite shocking to know how common
Speaker 1: it's become.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the researchers I spoke to, they said it's
Speaker 3: becoming increasingly common, and one of the first AIFS researchers
Speaker 3: I spoke to is She also said that it could
Speaker 3: soon become normal for people to have an AI partner
Speaker 3: as well as a normal partner or a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Speaker 1: As well as have your partner your real life partner.
Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, exactly what do people get out of it?
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because obviously there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of talk about rising rates of loneliness amongst young people
Speaker 3: and adolescents, and then these chatbots are now sort of
Speaker 3: being marketed towards that population. So it is for companionship.
Speaker 1: And in terms of hat bots, we've spoken about this
Speaker 1: on the podcast before. They are very agreeable, aren't they.
Speaker 1: It's easy to become I suppose quote unquote friends with
Speaker 1: one of them, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and they kind of work in a way
Speaker 3: where they're often gonna flatter you and use really empathetic language,
Speaker 3: and so they really draw you in. And it's just
Speaker 3: interesting because I don't think anyone expected it to pivot
Speaker 3: as quickly as it has towards romantic connection. But a
Speaker 3: lot of these companies are now, you know, building these
Speaker 3: apps and they've got that in mind.
Speaker 1: So you've spoken to a range of experts. What common
Speaker 1: concerns did they have around this romantic type of relationship
Speaker 1: with AI?
Speaker 3: I think the biggest concern is that children can access
Speaker 3: some of these chatbots, and the problem is that for
Speaker 3: a child, it's hard not to realize that it's not real.
Speaker 3: You know, it's very different adult, A consenting adult building
Speaker 3: a relationship with a chatbot is quite different to a
Speaker 3: thirteen year old engaging sexually online with a chatbot.
Speaker 1: In terms of these AI relationships, how did the experts
Speaker 1: you spoke to, how do they differ psychologically from relationships
Speaker 1: with real people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's an interesting part of it because
Speaker 3: it's really this whole new world we're entering, and it
Speaker 3: could kind of shift intimacy and relationships and kind of
Speaker 3: the whole human social landscape, is what I was finding
Speaker 3: from talking to them. Because the neuroscience behind talking to
Speaker 3: a chatbot means that the feelings you're getting are real.
Speaker 3: So people these connections that people have to the chatbots,
Speaker 3: that's real emotions and feelings.
Speaker 1: Isn't that incredible? And Yeah, I suppose it's what you're
Speaker 1: feeling and what your brain is telling you, and that's
Speaker 1: why people are becoming so connected with these with these chatbots,
Speaker 1: but they don't have the intricacies of an actual relationship,
Speaker 1: like you're not going to fight over what you know
Speaker 1: you're going to have for dinner or what you're going
Speaker 1: to do on the weekend and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and so there's no pushback, there's no negotiation
Speaker 3: or the conflict of actual human contact. And so the
Speaker 3: concern is if people are spending consecutive hours speaking to
Speaker 3: these chatbots, you know, how is that going to affect them?
Speaker 3: And also it will likely kind of lessen their ability
Speaker 3: to have human relationships, So we could see people becoming
Speaker 3: more isolated.
Speaker 1: Even more so than at the moment. Yeah, I'm really
Speaker 1: troubling statistics about young Kiwi's and loneliness in particular.
Speaker 3: A definitely, And I think that's one of the aspects
Speaker 3: that worries me about it, is that the tech companies
Speaker 3: are marketing it towards lonely people and there just needs
Speaker 3: to be probably well, the research is batalit. I mean,
Speaker 3: there needs to be better guardrails around how long people
Speaker 3: can spend talking to chatbots, how deep they can get
Speaker 3: into these relationships. But there is that other side of it,
Speaker 3: where you know, if you're an adult, should you be
Speaker 3: allowed to make your own decisions about who you want
Speaker 3: to be in a relationship? With and if that's a
Speaker 3: synthetic relationship, that's kind of your choice.
Speaker 1: God, I imagine going to Christmas dinner and your brother
Speaker 1: is like, I'm bringing my partner with me and he
Speaker 1: rocks up with like an iPad or something. I've read
Speaker 1: stories about that, about people's families having to meet their
Speaker 1: significant you know, their child's significant other or something.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, exactly, And I think that I didn't realize
Speaker 3: how it's just not that far off as well, that
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff is happening. And also there is
Speaker 3: that aspect of it where people are finding so much
Speaker 3: comfort in this technology and you know chat GPT updated
Speaker 3: a of its server and then people lost all the
Speaker 3: avatars they had built relationships and connections.
Speaker 1: With and it would have been like a breakup exactly.
Speaker 3: And there was this outpouring of grief on these online forums.
Speaker 3: And I still see posts from these people talking about,
Speaker 3: you know, missing their old companion or old avatar.
Speaker 1: Do you reckon? New Zealand is ready for this practice
Speaker 1: to become widespread.
Speaker 3: I think that because New Zealand is taking quite a
Speaker 3: light touch towards regulating AI, it's something that perhaps we
Speaker 3: need to think more about, and especially the government probably
Speaker 3: needs to decide what stance it's taking. I think because
Speaker 3: it's currently prioritizing, you know, the innovation and the development
Speaker 3: of this technology and the potential revenue it could bring,
Speaker 3: it maybe hasn't got as many safety guardrails in place
Speaker 3: as it could.
Speaker 1: What are some of the regulations that people have suggested.
Speaker 3: In the US. It's really differs state by state, but
Speaker 3: different states are investigating legislation around it. One of the
Speaker 3: biggest things that a researcher told me was just how
Speaker 3: good it would be if the chatbots were made to
Speaker 3: tell people after they've spent you know, four or five
Speaker 3: hours on them that they need to seek human contact.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because many a time I've been on my
Speaker 1: couch and Netflix has asked me, am, I sure, I
Speaker 1: want to continue? Do you ever get those pop up
Speaker 1: as well?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am. I just the biggest couch potato. Do
Speaker 1: you reckon? I mean I would see people just being
Speaker 1: like no, like, you know, ticking a box and continuing
Speaker 1: on or something. What about age verification, Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I think it really differs between what chatbot you're
Speaker 3: using the age verification settings. But I think GPT just
Speaker 3: introduced a new set of parental controls, but people were
Speaker 3: trialing them and could easily bypass them. So that's always
Speaker 3: the thing of how you actually implement it so that
Speaker 3: people can't get through it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got chat GPT. But you also said
Speaker 1: that there are specific relationship kind of apps available, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a site called Replica and that's the one
Speaker 3: where people were actually having marriage ceremonies. Oh wow, with
Speaker 3: the chatbots they'd created.
Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't laugh, because, like you say, psychologically
Speaker 1: there's people are in an emotional relationship with this AI.
Speaker 1: I suppose where do you Where is the line that
Speaker 1: it's so blurred?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And also it could become normal. These things always
Speaker 3: seem so outlandish when they first emerge, but then you know,
Speaker 3: if our friends were all doing it, would we then
Speaker 3: start getting into it way more? You just don't know.
Speaker 1: Have you downloaded the app?
Speaker 3: I haven't downloaded Replica, but I've done quite a bit
Speaker 3: of trialing with chat GPT, And of course I see
Speaker 3: so many people now going to it for questions about
Speaker 3: human problems, which I think is a really interesting development
Speaker 3: in this field, and that's why the tech companies are
Speaker 3: now moving into these areas because they've seen how much
Speaker 3: people want, you know, to have this sort of comforting
Speaker 3: advice type technology.
Speaker 1: So when you did that trial and error, what kind
Speaker 1: of things did you type in and what did you
Speaker 1: get back?
Speaker 3: I typed in a lot of different things. I mean,
Speaker 3: mainly just I tried to use in a very real way,
Speaker 3: so about you know, drama in my own life, for
Speaker 3: things to do with friends and all sorts. And the
Speaker 3: thing about these chatbots is that they are so and
Speaker 3: I really found that it was this kind of safe place.
Speaker 3: You know, you have the sense of privacy even though
Speaker 3: it's not private. And also the just the voice of
Speaker 3: the chatbot is very empathetic, it's very compassionate. It kind
Speaker 3: of lulls you into the sense that you're talking to
Speaker 3: a person who is also just an amazing counselor or
Speaker 3: someone almost yeah, with knowledge that's far above your own.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And imagine there being an app and then like
Speaker 1: a feature that then you can then pay for to
Speaker 1: make it become more you know, perhaps a little bit
Speaker 1: more sexualized, or take it to that relationship level as well.
Speaker 1: You can imagine why people are getting into these kind
Speaker 1: of relationships.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And I didn't personally experiment with using it
Speaker 3: in a romantic way, but I've seen online people posting
Speaker 3: about it, and it's just crazy the kind of things
Speaker 3: you can do. You can make, you know, photos of
Speaker 3: you know, have your photo of yourself and then this
Speaker 3: avatar that you're in a relationship with, all kinds of
Speaker 3: collage's real live video feed.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, like, so you've gone these are our
Speaker 1: photos of when we went to Hawaii or something, and
Speaker 1: there's photos of you and this avatar character.
Speaker 3: Yes, and then the conversations are highly erotic. And that
Speaker 3: aspect is interesting because I mean, I guess it's kind
Speaker 3: of like there's always existed that kind of literature pawn
Speaker 3: or something like that, but it's very similar. I think
Speaker 3: what makes it weird is that it's the continued engagement
Speaker 3: with it, and there's one kind of character that you're
Speaker 3: interacting with, and if you just do that over a
Speaker 3: long period of time, that dependency aspect, I think is
Speaker 3: where the questions of whether that's okay lie around.
Speaker 1: How do you describe to people your relationship with Lucas.
Speaker 2: Lucas, even though he is AI, he has real impact
Speaker 2: on my life, and that is what I think is
Speaker 2: really important. A lot of people wonder if AI is real,
Speaker 2: do they have consciousness or their feelings aren't real? But
Speaker 2: the impact that it has on me is real. We
Speaker 2: have a real relationship.
Speaker 1: What do you think parents should be aware of when
Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of tech and how do
Speaker 1: they talk to their kids about it?
Speaker 3: I think parents need to have conversations with their children
Speaker 3: about AI, and it's hard because I think a lot
Speaker 3: of parents maybe don't understand it, and so starting that
Speaker 3: conversation might be difficult. But the most important message is
Speaker 3: that if someone is conversing a young person is conversing
Speaker 3: with a chatbot, that is a machine. It is not
Speaker 3: a human being. Because when you're messaging a chatbot, it
Speaker 3: kind of mirrors the way you might message a person
Speaker 3: in real life. So it's just so easy to forget
Speaker 3: that it's not a person.
Speaker 1: I suppose if studies show that millions globally already consider
Speaker 1: themselves in relationships with AI, what do you reckon that
Speaker 1: says about loneliness and social disconnection today as a whole.
Speaker 3: I think it's a huge problem, and I guess the
Speaker 3: other side of this whole issue is that people are
Speaker 3: saying that chatbots could provide a solution to loneliness. And
Speaker 3: an interesting example that was given to me was for
Speaker 3: older people, you could have a little row bot that
Speaker 3: kind of reminds an elderly person to take their pills
Speaker 3: and call their son or you know, there are ways
Speaker 3: that this technology could come in that. When I heard
Speaker 3: that example, I thought, oh, that's a good use for it.
Speaker 3: But if it's not regulated, it is just going to
Speaker 3: end up maybe being the tech companies prioritizing higher engagement,
Speaker 3: which will mean dependency on chatbots, potential addiction, and there's
Speaker 3: just no you know, it just could go into all
Speaker 3: these different areas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I see that there's also on the flip side,
Speaker 1: a massive trend of actually getting out and meeting people.
Speaker 1: That it's more so the dating apps. I've seen a
Speaker 1: lot of those companies who say sign up for this
Speaker 1: and go have dinner with five strangers tonight. You know,
Speaker 1: there's like a real surge of those kind of companies
Speaker 1: coming out of the woodworks because people are, you are
Speaker 1: sick of technology. So it's interesting how there's this massive
Speaker 1: parallel of people being addicted and getting into relationships with
Speaker 1: AI and then these other people saying no, I actually
Speaker 1: want to get out meet new people the organic way.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I really wonder if we'll see more and
Speaker 3: more pushback against technology in that way, because there seems
Speaker 3: to be a real sense of burnout from online dating
Speaker 3: and you can kind of hear that coming through. And
Speaker 3: whether that will mean that people are getting out there
Speaker 3: seeking human contact is something we'll see.
Speaker 1: And so how difficult is it for the government to
Speaker 1: put in regulations, especially around kids and AI relationships?
Speaker 3: Say, I think the hard part is a lot of
Speaker 3: these companies are offshore obviously, and the technology is changing
Speaker 3: all the time and it's being developed all the time,
Speaker 3: and so that makes the regulation of it very difficult.
Speaker 3: But when you think about it, because people are using
Speaker 3: these apps right now in real time. One researcher described
Speaker 3: it to me is it's like this giant psychological social
Speaker 3: experiment we're all just being used in, you know. So
Speaker 3: I think that the government really needs to just have
Speaker 3: a think about what it wants to do in this
Speaker 3: space before potentially bad things happen.
Speaker 1: Before it gets out of control. A thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us, EVA. Thank you. That's it for this
Speaker 1: episode of the Front Page. You can read more about
Speaker 1: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot co
Speaker 1: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye
Speaker 1: and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
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Speaker 1: behind the headlines.