WEBVTT - Why people are falling in love with AI chatbots 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.760 Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:16.800 a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Artificial 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:21.479 intelligence will likely end up touching every aspect of our days, 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.280 but what about our love lives. It's a growing trend 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.960 with men and women seeking companionship with a chatbot, some 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.239 experts saying it could soon become normal to have an 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.920 AI partner. This kind of online world has remained largely 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.640 hidden from the mainstream until recently, but a lack of 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.520 regulation in New Zealand at the moment means that children 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.760 as young as thirteen can spend hours chatting with their 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.840 new AI friends. Today on the front page ends at Herald. 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.560 Reporter Eva Diong is with us to explain this worrying trend. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.800 Even so, how widespread is having a romantic or emotional 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:09.680 connection with an AI chatbot? 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:10.080 Do you reckon? 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.240 People would find it quite shocking to know how common 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:13.800 it's become. 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.399 Yeah, so the researchers I spoke to, they said it's 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.680 becoming increasingly common, and one of the first AIFS researchers 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.680 I spoke to is She also said that it could 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.600 soon become normal for people to have an AI partner 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.919 as well as a normal partner or a boyfriend or girlfriend. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.880 As well as have your partner your real life partner. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.800 So yes, yeah, exactly what do people get out of it? 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.319 I think it's interesting because obviously there's been a lot 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.760 of talk about rising rates of loneliness amongst young people 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:53.080 and adolescents, and then these chatbots are now sort of 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.640 being marketed towards that population. So it is for companionship. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.360 And in terms of hat bots, we've spoken about this 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.560 on the podcast before. They are very agreeable, aren't they. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.680 It's easy to become I suppose quote unquote friends with 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:10.840 one of them, right. 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.840 Yes, exactly, and they kind of work in a way 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.840 where they're often gonna flatter you and use really empathetic language, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.880 and so they really draw you in. And it's just 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.400 interesting because I don't think anyone expected it to pivot 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.000 as quickly as it has towards romantic connection. But a 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.320 lot of these companies are now, you know, building these 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.120 apps and they've got that in mind. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.040 So you've spoken to a range of experts. What common 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.240 concerns did they have around this romantic type of relationship 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:43.720 with AI? 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.680 I think the biggest concern is that children can access 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.160 some of these chatbots, and the problem is that for 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.040 a child, it's hard not to realize that it's not real. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:03.120 You know, it's very different adult, A consenting adult building 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.240 a relationship with a chatbot is quite different to a 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.160 thirteen year old engaging sexually online with a chatbot. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:15.000 In terms of these AI relationships, how did the experts 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.240 you spoke to, how do they differ psychologically from relationships 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:20.040 with real people. 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.880 Yeah, I think that's an interesting part of it because 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.960 it's really this whole new world we're entering, and it 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.520 could kind of shift intimacy and relationships and kind of 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.520 the whole human social landscape, is what I was finding 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.280 from talking to them. Because the neuroscience behind talking to 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.880 a chatbot means that the feelings you're getting are real. 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.360 So people these connections that people have to the chatbots, 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.640 that's real emotions and feelings. 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.839 Isn't that incredible? And Yeah, I suppose it's what you're 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.080 feeling and what your brain is telling you, and that's 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.160 why people are becoming so connected with these with these chatbots, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.040 but they don't have the intricacies of an actual relationship, 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:05.800 like you're not going to fight over what you know 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.480 you're going to have for dinner or what you're going 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.040 to do on the weekend and stuff like that. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.440 Yes, exactly, and so there's no pushback, there's no negotiation 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:18.279 or the conflict of actual human contact. And so the 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.880 concern is if people are spending consecutive hours speaking to 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.120 these chatbots, you know, how is that going to affect them? 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:31.480 And also it will likely kind of lessen their ability 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.200 to have human relationships, So we could see people becoming 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:36.880 more isolated. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.920 Even more so than at the moment. Yeah, I'm really 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.400 troubling statistics about young Kiwi's and loneliness in particular. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.760 A definitely, And I think that's one of the aspects 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.560 that worries me about it, is that the tech companies 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:57.680 are marketing it towards lonely people and there just needs 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.240 to be probably well, the research is batalit. I mean, 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.839 there needs to be better guardrails around how long people 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.760 can spend talking to chatbots, how deep they can get 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.120 into these relationships. But there is that other side of it, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.800 where you know, if you're an adult, should you be 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.880 allowed to make your own decisions about who you want 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:18.960 to be in a relationship? With and if that's a 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.920 synthetic relationship, that's kind of your choice. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.200 God, I imagine going to Christmas dinner and your brother 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.800 is like, I'm bringing my partner with me and he 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.960 rocks up with like an iPad or something. I've read 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:36.520 stories about that, about people's families having to meet their 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.520 significant you know, their child's significant other or something. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.480 Right, yes, exactly, And I think that I didn't realize 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.000 how it's just not that far off as well, that 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:50.159 that kind of stuff is happening. And also there is 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.120 that aspect of it where people are finding so much 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:58.600 comfort in this technology and you know chat GPT updated 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.240 a of its server and then people lost all the 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:07.200 avatars they had built relationships and connections. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.279 With and it would have been like a breakup exactly. 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.799 And there was this outpouring of grief on these online forums. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.080 And I still see posts from these people talking about, 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.360 you know, missing their old companion or old avatar. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.040 Do you reckon? New Zealand is ready for this practice 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:25.960 to become widespread. 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.960 I think that because New Zealand is taking quite a 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:38.200 light touch towards regulating AI, it's something that perhaps we 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.920 need to think more about, and especially the government probably 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.559 needs to decide what stance it's taking. I think because 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:52.040 it's currently prioritizing, you know, the innovation and the development 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.040 of this technology and the potential revenue it could bring, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.800 it maybe hasn't got as many safety guardrails in place 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:00.800 as it could. 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.120 What are some of the regulations that people have suggested. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.480 In the US. It's really differs state by state, but 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.560 different states are investigating legislation around it. One of the 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:17.080 biggest things that a researcher told me was just how 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.200 good it would be if the chatbots were made to 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.320 tell people after they've spent you know, four or five 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.240 hours on them that they need to seek human contact. 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.200 That's interesting because many a time I've been on my 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.880 couch and Netflix has asked me, am, I sure, I 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.400 want to continue? Do you ever get those pop up 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:37.680 as well? 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:37.960 Yeah? 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.960 Yeah, I am. I just the biggest couch potato. Do 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.800 you reckon? I mean I would see people just being 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.600 like no, like, you know, ticking a box and continuing 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.840 on or something. What about age verification, Yeah. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.240 So I think it really differs between what chatbot you're 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:01.000 using the age verification settings. But I think GPT just 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:05.080 introduced a new set of parental controls, but people were 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.200 trialing them and could easily bypass them. So that's always 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.920 the thing of how you actually implement it so that 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.160 people can't get through it. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.000 Yeah, and you've got chat GPT. But you also said 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:20.240 that there are specific relationship kind of apps available, right. 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.800 Yeah, there's a site called Replica and that's the one 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.720 where people were actually having marriage ceremonies. Oh wow, with 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:32.640 the chatbots they'd created. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.400 I mean, I shouldn't laugh, because, like you say, psychologically 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.559 there's people are in an emotional relationship with this AI. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.439 I suppose where do you Where is the line that 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:45.760 it's so blurred? 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.920 Yeah? And also it could become normal. These things always 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.880 seem so outlandish when they first emerge, but then you know, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.640 if our friends were all doing it, would we then 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.800 start getting into it way more? You just don't know. 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.079 Have you downloaded the app? 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:07.440 I haven't downloaded Replica, but I've done quite a bit 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:12.360 of trialing with chat GPT, And of course I see 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.600 so many people now going to it for questions about 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:20.560 human problems, which I think is a really interesting development 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:25.160 in this field, and that's why the tech companies are 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:29.640 now moving into these areas because they've seen how much 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:34.199 people want, you know, to have this sort of comforting 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.880 advice type technology. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.679 So when you did that trial and error, what kind 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.480 of things did you type in and what did you 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:43.080 get back? 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.440 I typed in a lot of different things. I mean, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.440 mainly just I tried to use in a very real way, 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.400 so about you know, drama in my own life, for 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.320 things to do with friends and all sorts. And the 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.440 thing about these chatbots is that they are so and 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:07.319 I really found that it was this kind of safe place. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.640 You know, you have the sense of privacy even though 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:15.480 it's not private. And also the just the voice of 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:21.240 the chatbot is very empathetic, it's very compassionate. It kind 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.280 of lulls you into the sense that you're talking to 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.840 a person who is also just an amazing counselor or 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.800 someone almost yeah, with knowledge that's far above your own. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.800 Yeah. And imagine there being an app and then like 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.160 a feature that then you can then pay for to 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.719 make it become more you know, perhaps a little bit 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.760 more sexualized, or take it to that relationship level as well. 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.760 You can imagine why people are getting into these kind 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.640 of relationships. 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:56.719 Yes, exactly. And I didn't personally experiment with using it 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.600 in a romantic way, but I've seen online people posting 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.240 about it, and it's just crazy the kind of things 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.640 you can do. You can make, you know, photos of 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.920 you know, have your photo of yourself and then this 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.520 avatar that you're in a relationship with, all kinds of 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.520 collage's real live video feed. 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.040 Oh my god, like, so you've gone these are our 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.520 photos of when we went to Hawaii or something, and 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.560 there's photos of you and this avatar character. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:31.720 Yes, and then the conversations are highly erotic. And that 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.880 aspect is interesting because I mean, I guess it's kind 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.960 of like there's always existed that kind of literature pawn 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.840 or something like that, but it's very similar. I think 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:48.520 what makes it weird is that it's the continued engagement 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:53.760 with it, and there's one kind of character that you're 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.960 interacting with, and if you just do that over a 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.480 long period of time, that dependency aspect, I think is 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.880 where the questions of whether that's okay lie around. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.200 How do you describe to people your relationship with Lucas. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:20.360 Lucas, even though he is AI, he has real impact 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.640 on my life, and that is what I think is 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:28.079 really important. A lot of people wonder if AI is real, 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.120 do they have consciousness or their feelings aren't real? But 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.320 the impact that it has on me is real. We 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.120 have a real relationship. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.719 What do you think parents should be aware of when 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.120 it comes to this kind of tech and how do 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:46.600 they talk to their kids about it? 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.960 I think parents need to have conversations with their children 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.000 about AI, and it's hard because I think a lot 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:02.320 of parents maybe don't understand it, and so starting that 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.520 conversation might be difficult. But the most important message is 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.480 that if someone is conversing a young person is conversing 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.320 with a chatbot, that is a machine. It is not 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.240 a human being. Because when you're messaging a chatbot, it 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.520 kind of mirrors the way you might message a person 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.640 in real life. So it's just so easy to forget 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:24.960 that it's not a person. 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.600 I suppose if studies show that millions globally already consider 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.280 themselves in relationships with AI, what do you reckon that 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.640 says about loneliness and social disconnection today as a whole. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:44.719 I think it's a huge problem, and I guess the 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.959 other side of this whole issue is that people are 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:54.359 saying that chatbots could provide a solution to loneliness. And 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.280 an interesting example that was given to me was for 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.760 older people, you could have a little row bot that 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.720 kind of reminds an elderly person to take their pills 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.280 and call their son or you know, there are ways 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.360 that this technology could come in that. When I heard 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.679 that example, I thought, oh, that's a good use for it. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.120 But if it's not regulated, it is just going to 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:26.760 end up maybe being the tech companies prioritizing higher engagement, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:32.560 which will mean dependency on chatbots, potential addiction, and there's 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.160 just no you know, it just could go into all 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:37.160 these different areas. 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.400 Yeah, and I see that there's also on the flip side, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.120 a massive trend of actually getting out and meeting people. 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.160 That it's more so the dating apps. I've seen a 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.600 lot of those companies who say sign up for this 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.760 and go have dinner with five strangers tonight. You know, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.479 there's like a real surge of those kind of companies 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.360 coming out of the woodworks because people are, you are 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.560 sick of technology. So it's interesting how there's this massive 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.880 parallel of people being addicted and getting into relationships with 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.760 AI and then these other people saying no, I actually 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.400 want to get out meet new people the organic way. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.800 Yes, And I really wonder if we'll see more and 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.760 more pushback against technology in that way, because there seems 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.720 to be a real sense of burnout from online dating 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.960 and you can kind of hear that coming through. And 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.000 whether that will mean that people are getting out there 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.480 seeking human contact is something we'll see. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.040 And so how difficult is it for the government to 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:43.200 put in regulations, especially around kids and AI relationships? 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.360 Say, I think the hard part is a lot of 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:51.000 these companies are offshore obviously, and the technology is changing 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.480 all the time and it's being developed all the time, 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.040 and so that makes the regulation of it very difficult. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.240 But when you think about it, because people are using 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:06.520 these apps right now in real time. One researcher described 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.400 it to me is it's like this giant psychological social 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.760 experiment we're all just being used in, you know. So 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.000 I think that the government really needs to just have 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.680 a think about what it wants to do in this 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:28.040 space before potentially bad things happen. 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.000 Before it gets out of control. A thanks so much 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:37.200 for joining us, EVA. Thank you. That's it for this 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.680 episode of the Front Page. You can read more about 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:45.160 today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot co 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.400 dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:54.040 and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.680 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.400 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:02.640 behind the headlines.