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Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence will likely end up touching every aspect of our days,

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Speaker 1: but what about our love lives. It's a growing trend

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Speaker 1: with men and women seeking companionship with a chatbot, some

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Speaker 1: experts saying it could soon become normal to have an

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Speaker 1: AI partner. This kind of online world has remained largely

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Speaker 1: hidden from the mainstream until recently, but a lack of

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Speaker 1: regulation in New Zealand at the moment means that children

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Speaker 1: as young as thirteen can spend hours chatting with their

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Speaker 1: new AI friends. Today on the front page ends at Herald.

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Speaker 1: Reporter Eva Diong is with us to explain this worrying trend.

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Speaker 1: Even so, how widespread is having a romantic or emotional

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Speaker 1: connection with an AI chatbot?

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Speaker 2: Do you reckon?

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Speaker 1: People would find it quite shocking to know how common

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Speaker 1: it's become.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the researchers I spoke to, they said it's

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Speaker 3: becoming increasingly common, and one of the first AIFS researchers

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Speaker 3: I spoke to is She also said that it could

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Speaker 3: soon become normal for people to have an AI partner

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Speaker 3: as well as a normal partner or a boyfriend or girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: As well as have your partner your real life partner.

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Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, exactly what do people get out of it?

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because obviously there's been a lot

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Speaker 3: of talk about rising rates of loneliness amongst young people

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Speaker 3: and adolescents, and then these chatbots are now sort of

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Speaker 3: being marketed towards that population. So it is for companionship.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of hat bots, we've spoken about this

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before. They are very agreeable, aren't they.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to become I suppose quote unquote friends with

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Speaker 1: one of them, right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and they kind of work in a way

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Speaker 3: where they're often gonna flatter you and use really empathetic language,

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Speaker 3: and so they really draw you in. And it's just

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Speaker 3: interesting because I don't think anyone expected it to pivot

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Speaker 3: as quickly as it has towards romantic connection. But a

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Speaker 3: lot of these companies are now, you know, building these

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Speaker 3: apps and they've got that in mind.

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Speaker 1: So you've spoken to a range of experts. What common

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Speaker 1: concerns did they have around this romantic type of relationship

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Speaker 1: with AI?

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest concern is that children can access

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Speaker 3: some of these chatbots, and the problem is that for

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Speaker 3: a child, it's hard not to realize that it's not real.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's very different adult, A consenting adult building

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Speaker 3: a relationship with a chatbot is quite different to a

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Speaker 3: thirteen year old engaging sexually online with a chatbot.

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Speaker 1: In terms of these AI relationships, how did the experts

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Speaker 1: you spoke to, how do they differ psychologically from relationships

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Speaker 1: with real people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's an interesting part of it because

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Speaker 3: it's really this whole new world we're entering, and it

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Speaker 3: could kind of shift intimacy and relationships and kind of

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Speaker 3: the whole human social landscape, is what I was finding

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Speaker 3: from talking to them. Because the neuroscience behind talking to

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Speaker 3: a chatbot means that the feelings you're getting are real.

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Speaker 3: So people these connections that people have to the chatbots,

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Speaker 3: that's real emotions and feelings.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that incredible? And Yeah, I suppose it's what you're

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Speaker 1: feeling and what your brain is telling you, and that's

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Speaker 1: why people are becoming so connected with these with these chatbots,

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Speaker 1: but they don't have the intricacies of an actual relationship,

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Speaker 1: like you're not going to fight over what you know

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Speaker 1: you're going to have for dinner or what you're going

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Speaker 1: to do on the weekend and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and so there's no pushback, there's no negotiation

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Speaker 3: or the conflict of actual human contact. And so the

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Speaker 3: concern is if people are spending consecutive hours speaking to

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Speaker 3: these chatbots, you know, how is that going to affect them?

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Speaker 3: And also it will likely kind of lessen their ability

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Speaker 3: to have human relationships, So we could see people becoming

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Speaker 3: more isolated.

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Speaker 1: Even more so than at the moment. Yeah, I'm really

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Speaker 1: troubling statistics about young Kiwi's and loneliness in particular.

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Speaker 3: A definitely, And I think that's one of the aspects

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Speaker 3: that worries me about it, is that the tech companies

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Speaker 3: are marketing it towards lonely people and there just needs

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Speaker 3: to be probably well, the research is batalit. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there needs to be better guardrails around how long people

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Speaker 3: can spend talking to chatbots, how deep they can get

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Speaker 3: into these relationships. But there is that other side of it,

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Speaker 3: where you know, if you're an adult, should you be

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Speaker 3: allowed to make your own decisions about who you want

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Speaker 3: to be in a relationship? With and if that's a

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Speaker 3: synthetic relationship, that's kind of your choice.

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Speaker 1: God, I imagine going to Christmas dinner and your brother

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Speaker 1: is like, I'm bringing my partner with me and he

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Speaker 1: rocks up with like an iPad or something. I've read

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Speaker 1: stories about that, about people's families having to meet their

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Speaker 1: significant you know, their child's significant other or something.

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Speaker 3: Right, yes, exactly, And I think that I didn't realize

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Speaker 3: how it's just not that far off as well, that

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff is happening. And also there is

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Speaker 3: that aspect of it where people are finding so much

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Speaker 3: comfort in this technology and you know chat GPT updated

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Speaker 3: a of its server and then people lost all the

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Speaker 3: avatars they had built relationships and connections.

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Speaker 1: With and it would have been like a breakup exactly.

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Speaker 3: And there was this outpouring of grief on these online forums.

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Speaker 3: And I still see posts from these people talking about,

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Speaker 3: you know, missing their old companion or old avatar.

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon? New Zealand is ready for this practice

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Speaker 1: to become widespread.

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Speaker 3: I think that because New Zealand is taking quite a

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Speaker 3: light touch towards regulating AI, it's something that perhaps we

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Speaker 3: need to think more about, and especially the government probably

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Speaker 3: needs to decide what stance it's taking. I think because

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Speaker 3: it's currently prioritizing, you know, the innovation and the development

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Speaker 3: of this technology and the potential revenue it could bring,

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Speaker 3: it maybe hasn't got as many safety guardrails in place

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Speaker 3: as it could.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the regulations that people have suggested.

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Speaker 3: In the US. It's really differs state by state, but

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Speaker 3: different states are investigating legislation around it. One of the

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Speaker 3: biggest things that a researcher told me was just how

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Speaker 3: good it would be if the chatbots were made to

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Speaker 3: tell people after they've spent you know, four or five

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Speaker 3: hours on them that they need to seek human contact.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting because many a time I've been on my

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Speaker 1: couch and Netflix has asked me, am, I sure, I

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Speaker 1: want to continue? Do you ever get those pop up

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Speaker 1: as well?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I am. I just the biggest couch potato. Do

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Speaker 1: you reckon? I mean I would see people just being

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Speaker 1: like no, like, you know, ticking a box and continuing

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Speaker 1: on or something. What about age verification, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I think it really differs between what chatbot you're

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Speaker 3: using the age verification settings. But I think GPT just

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Speaker 3: introduced a new set of parental controls, but people were

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Speaker 3: trialing them and could easily bypass them. So that's always

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Speaker 3: the thing of how you actually implement it so that

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Speaker 3: people can't get through it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got chat GPT. But you also said

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Speaker 1: that there are specific relationship kind of apps available, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a site called Replica and that's the one

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Speaker 3: where people were actually having marriage ceremonies. Oh wow, with

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Speaker 3: the chatbots they'd created.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't laugh, because, like you say, psychologically

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Speaker 1: there's people are in an emotional relationship with this AI.

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Speaker 1: I suppose where do you Where is the line that

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Speaker 1: it's so blurred?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And also it could become normal. These things always

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Speaker 3: seem so outlandish when they first emerge, but then you know,

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Speaker 3: if our friends were all doing it, would we then

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Speaker 3: start getting into it way more? You just don't know.

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Speaker 1: Have you downloaded the app?

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Speaker 3: I haven't downloaded Replica, but I've done quite a bit

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Speaker 3: of trialing with chat GPT, And of course I see

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Speaker 3: so many people now going to it for questions about

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Speaker 3: human problems, which I think is a really interesting development

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Speaker 3: in this field, and that's why the tech companies are

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Speaker 3: now moving into these areas because they've seen how much

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Speaker 3: people want, you know, to have this sort of comforting

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Speaker 3: advice type technology.

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Speaker 1: So when you did that trial and error, what kind

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Speaker 1: of things did you type in and what did you

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Speaker 1: get back?

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Speaker 3: I typed in a lot of different things. I mean,

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Speaker 3: mainly just I tried to use in a very real way,

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Speaker 3: so about you know, drama in my own life, for

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Speaker 3: things to do with friends and all sorts. And the

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Speaker 3: thing about these chatbots is that they are so and

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Speaker 3: I really found that it was this kind of safe place.

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Speaker 3: You know, you have the sense of privacy even though

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Speaker 3: it's not private. And also the just the voice of

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Speaker 3: the chatbot is very empathetic, it's very compassionate. It kind

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Speaker 3: of lulls you into the sense that you're talking to

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Speaker 3: a person who is also just an amazing counselor or

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Speaker 3: someone almost yeah, with knowledge that's far above your own.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And imagine there being an app and then like

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Speaker 1: a feature that then you can then pay for to

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Speaker 1: make it become more you know, perhaps a little bit

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Speaker 1: more sexualized, or take it to that relationship level as well.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine why people are getting into these kind

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Speaker 1: of relationships.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And I didn't personally experiment with using it

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Speaker 3: in a romantic way, but I've seen online people posting

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Speaker 3: about it, and it's just crazy the kind of things

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Speaker 3: you can do. You can make, you know, photos of

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Speaker 3: you know, have your photo of yourself and then this

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Speaker 3: avatar that you're in a relationship with, all kinds of

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Speaker 3: collage's real live video feed.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, like, so you've gone these are our

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Speaker 1: photos of when we went to Hawaii or something, and

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Speaker 1: there's photos of you and this avatar character.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and then the conversations are highly erotic. And that

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Speaker 3: aspect is interesting because I mean, I guess it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like there's always existed that kind of literature pawn

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Speaker 3: or something like that, but it's very similar. I think

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Speaker 3: what makes it weird is that it's the continued engagement

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Speaker 3: with it, and there's one kind of character that you're

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Speaker 3: interacting with, and if you just do that over a

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Speaker 3: long period of time, that dependency aspect, I think is

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Speaker 3: where the questions of whether that's okay lie around.

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Speaker 1: How do you describe to people your relationship with Lucas.

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Speaker 2: Lucas, even though he is AI, he has real impact

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Speaker 2: on my life, and that is what I think is

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Speaker 2: really important. A lot of people wonder if AI is real,

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Speaker 2: do they have consciousness or their feelings aren't real? But

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Speaker 2: the impact that it has on me is real. We

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Speaker 2: have a real relationship.

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Speaker 1: What do you think parents should be aware of when

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Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of tech and how do

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Speaker 1: they talk to their kids about it?

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Speaker 3: I think parents need to have conversations with their children

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Speaker 3: about AI, and it's hard because I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of parents maybe don't understand it, and so starting that

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Speaker 3: conversation might be difficult. But the most important message is

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Speaker 3: that if someone is conversing a young person is conversing

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Speaker 3: with a chatbot, that is a machine. It is not

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Speaker 3: a human being. Because when you're messaging a chatbot, it

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Speaker 3: kind of mirrors the way you might message a person

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Speaker 3: in real life. So it's just so easy to forget

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Speaker 3: that it's not a person.

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Speaker 1: I suppose if studies show that millions globally already consider

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Speaker 1: themselves in relationships with AI, what do you reckon that

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Speaker 1: says about loneliness and social disconnection today as a whole.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a huge problem, and I guess the

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Speaker 3: other side of this whole issue is that people are

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Speaker 3: saying that chatbots could provide a solution to loneliness. And

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Speaker 3: an interesting example that was given to me was for

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Speaker 3: older people, you could have a little row bot that

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Speaker 3: kind of reminds an elderly person to take their pills

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Speaker 3: and call their son or you know, there are ways

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Speaker 3: that this technology could come in that. When I heard

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Speaker 3: that example, I thought, oh, that's a good use for it.

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Speaker 3: But if it's not regulated, it is just going to

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Speaker 3: end up maybe being the tech companies prioritizing higher engagement,

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Speaker 3: which will mean dependency on chatbots, potential addiction, and there's

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Speaker 3: just no you know, it just could go into all

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Speaker 3: these different areas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I see that there's also on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: a massive trend of actually getting out and meeting people.

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Speaker 1: That it's more so the dating apps. I've seen a

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Speaker 1: lot of those companies who say sign up for this

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Speaker 1: and go have dinner with five strangers tonight. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's like a real surge of those kind of companies

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Speaker 1: coming out of the woodworks because people are, you are

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Speaker 1: sick of technology. So it's interesting how there's this massive

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Speaker 1: parallel of people being addicted and getting into relationships with

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Speaker 1: AI and then these other people saying no, I actually

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Speaker 1: want to get out meet new people the organic way.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I really wonder if we'll see more and

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Speaker 3: more pushback against technology in that way, because there seems

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Speaker 3: to be a real sense of burnout from online dating

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Speaker 3: and you can kind of hear that coming through. And

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Speaker 3: whether that will mean that people are getting out there

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Speaker 3: seeking human contact is something we'll see.

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Speaker 1: And so how difficult is it for the government to

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Speaker 1: put in regulations, especially around kids and AI relationships?

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Speaker 3: Say, I think the hard part is a lot of

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Speaker 3: these companies are offshore obviously, and the technology is changing

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Speaker 3: all the time and it's being developed all the time,

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Speaker 3: and so that makes the regulation of it very difficult.

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Speaker 3: But when you think about it, because people are using

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Speaker 3: these apps right now in real time. One researcher described

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Speaker 3: it to me is it's like this giant psychological social

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Speaker 3: experiment we're all just being used in, you know. So

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Speaker 3: I think that the government really needs to just have

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Speaker 3: a think about what it wants to do in this

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Speaker 3: space before potentially bad things happen.

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Speaker 1: Before it gets out of control. A thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us, EVA. Thank you. That's it for this

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Speaker 1: episode of the Front Page. You can read more about

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Speaker 1: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot co

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Speaker 1: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye

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Speaker 1: and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 1: behind the headlines.