WEBVTT - Episode 18: The Fork In The Road 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.840 Just to note this episode does contain course language. 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.120 The night before I was done, I was done with 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:07.640 my life. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.000 I was like, you know what fucked this. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:13.840 That I hadn't slept. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.400 So I was like, you know what, I'm either going 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.360 to fucking drive off a cliff or I'm going to 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:21.200 go and rob a bank. 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:22.520 And so I robbed the bank. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.960 This is Ricky twenty years ago. He committed a violent crime, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.040 a crime that for most of us is unthinkable. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:37.879 I went into the bank, I discharged the firearm in 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:38.560 the bank. 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:41.639 In a vertical position. 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:48.120 I demanded a bunch of money. I was so dumb 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.559 and so stupid. The Task Forces Task Force Norkan got 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:57.000 on me, predicuickly. I took them for a massive case 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.200 around the sortland, trying to obeye them. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.400 Finally came to in my neighborhood. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:10.319 I had a lot of armed police officers on me, 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:12.360 ready to blow my head off for. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.039 A very scary, scary situation. I was taken and I 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.120 was thrown in mount Eden for the weekend. 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.800 It was the worst day of my life going into 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.600 Mounting because I had not I had not committed any prime. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.080 I worked as a shift you know, globally I was qualified, 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:30.600 you know, So. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.399 It's just not it's a very out of character. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.040 When you said you were stupid and it was darne, 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.679 and yes it was, but also you were desperate, you 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:42.240 were at the end. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:50.520 Yeah, yeah, I was Gelda. 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.279 I'm Sonia Gray and this is no such thing as normal. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.840 Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.560 of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:06.000 neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.720 In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.160 wonderful people who experience the world in a unique way. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:28.280 We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. The intersection between 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:32.240 neurodivergence and the criminal justice system is not well understood, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.600 but the actual stats are alarming. Those with ADHD or 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:41.120 dyslexia are approximately five times as likely to be incarcerated 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.680 at some point in their lives. But then those same 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:49.600 neurotypes are also more likely to be successful entrepreneurs and CEOs. 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.240 So what is it about different cognition that means you 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.280 have a better chance of becoming a billionaire and a 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.680 better chance of ending up behind bars? Where is the 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.000 four in the Road. In this episode, we're looking at 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.400 how and why some individuals like Ricky end up on 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:08.200 the wrong path. 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:20.960 Mm hmmm, all right, Yeah. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.160 Ricky's focus right now is his role as stay at 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.480 home dad to us two boys aged one and three, 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:33.400 financially work. It's a job he takes very seriously. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.120 You know, you're responsible for the building of a brain here. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.120 You know, our children are our polder man, and I've 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:46.080 definitely been blessed to beautiful sons, and they are part 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.760 of my purpose. You know, I've been seeking my purpose 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.800 for for a while and I look at them and. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.360 It's it's pretty amazing. You know. 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.920 I do have to practice that, that gratitude for where 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.160 I'm at. Man, I just you know, I've gone from 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.160 some fucking really dark shit to being in a position 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.840 where I can I can get I can put my 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.160 kid on the bike and I can ride him down 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.240 to the beach, I can ride him down to the park, 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:15.840 and you. 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.520 Know, I can take him for a walk after dinner. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.960 And then I give thanks to that, you know, because 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:23.680 I've had a lot of hard work in my own 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.960 way to do that, and honoring my wife and the 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.040 work that she does to have that comfortable space for us. 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.240 Ricky is forty two now. He's articulate, a deep thinker, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.640 and passionate about making a difference, which is why he's 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.120 agreed to talk openly and honestly about a time in 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.159 his life he'd rather forget. The crime was serious, and 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.920 Ricky deeply regrets it, but he's keen for people to 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.360 know the why, what happened to get him to that place. 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:59.000 He believes a big factor was his undiagnosed ADHD, and 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.560 there were clues from an early age. 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.680 Very very very intense. 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:11.520 I remember being hyper aware of, you know, my footprint, 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.680 and I would be told, are you sensitive? And if 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.279 you focus on this, you're going to give yourself a context. 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.640 Well, you know, like at eight, like you don't even know. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:22.880 What a fucking complex is. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.680 And so it's even it's adding fuel to the fire 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:27.640 more now it's like, you know. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.640 We can't quite figure out how to make things consistent 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:33.200 for you, but we know something's wrong. 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:40.839 Like many with ADHD, Ricky feels the world intensely. Rejection 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:46.360 sensitive dysphoria or RISD is innate to the ADHD experience, 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.919 but it's still not officially part of the diagnostic criteria, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:55.720 so it's not always taken seriously. RSD describes the intense 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.479 emotional and physical pain that adhd is feel when they're 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.080 rejected or criticized. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:03.200 It hurts a lot. 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.880 The response can be shut down withdrawal, anger, and incredibly 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:14.960 low self esteem. When Ricky's psychiatrist explained rejection sensitive dysphoria, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.120 it was a light bulb moment for him. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.200 Finally something, Finally someone who understands. It's not something that 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.279 you can just switch off. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:24.599 Fuck. 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.800 If I could switch it off, i'd be great, you know. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.000 But then again, I wouldn't want to be one of 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.200 those shocks or outfits that just went along in life 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.240 and just didn't give a fuck about anyone's feelings or 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:37.160 what anyone said. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.760 Looking back at your school experience, what was it like? 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:43.760 Do you feel like you fit it in? 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:44.960 No? 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:45.520 Not at all. 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:46.760 I never fit in at school. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:47.200 Never. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.440 School was not easy for me. I went to numerous 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:56.280 schools inter media. In college, I was very on the outside. 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.760 I could never be involved in a. 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:00.840 Group at an environment. 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.320 It was very overwhelming for me. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.000 So it was easier for me just to remove myself 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:07.240 from anything like that. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.200 I found it very, very hard. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:14.600 To focus because this is so self conscious and self aware. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.960 Ricky left school at fifteen, but he sent me a 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.280 school reports for the five years before that and reading 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:30.480 them it's pretty bleak. Lax discipline, immature class behavior, a 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:35.000 very disruptive influence on the rest of the class, easily distracted, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.640 must learn to work quietly, must learn to listen to instructions. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.160 Poor results are of his own making, and it goes on. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.840 There's one positive comment, he's very interested in how people think, 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.920 feel and act, but apart from that, there's not much encouragement. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.520 ADHD is often called the school to prison pipeline because 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.800 for many school is a place you're constantly reminded that 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:05.520 you're different. Research shows that by the time they're twelve, 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.840 boys with ADHD have received twenty thousand more critical or 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:15.240 negative messages than those without ADHD. Antoin Ashcroft is a 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.600 forensic psychologist. He works worth and studies people who break 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.800 the law, and Anton says it's the early years of 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.760 school that can be the most damaging. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.920 That's where our social identity gets set. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.280 So you can imagine what it would be like if 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.719 you're seen in a classroom as being disruptive and interruptive 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.679 of others and fighting people to get what you want, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.240 and that label will stick. And then from that label 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.000 comes your whole sense. It's called schema. You set up 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.200 your schema about yourself, the world, and other people. And 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.079 from that young age, if you say well, I am 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.720 weird and odd, other people that can't be trusted and 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.600 the world is dangerous, that then stays with you for 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.040 the pretty much the rest of your life. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.400 It takes a long time. Is it possible to erase 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:04.080 the tape? 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:04.839 It is. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.600 We develop scripts and we can change those scripts, but 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.560 we have to go through a process of unlearning the 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.439 first scripts and learning some new scripts. And initially, if 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.680 you imagine that the old script a script is a 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.000 bit like a motorway. You go down that script so 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.040 so easily, and your new script is perhaps trying to 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.679 go to a narrow thicket with loads of bushes and things, 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.800 and you're pushing through and it's really effortful. But over 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.960 a period of time, if you maintain that effort with support, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.760 that thicket starts to get brushed down, it gets wider, 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.079 and then it starts to compete with the motorway. So 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.480 you then have a choice. But it's very rare for 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.240 that script to just suddenly flip. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.120 Enton's helped to flip some of the toughest scripts. He 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.320 worked as a forensic psychologist in prisons for many years, 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.680 and his approach was to look beyond the offenses and 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.840 find the positive quality of those behind bars. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.040 Approximately eighty percent of the people that I was working 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.360 with in prison, I would say were good people. They 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.720 were people who had had a tough life or a 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:16.880 tougher environment, or a history of trauma or undiagnosed neurodiversity 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.120 of some sort. Really didn't know how to manage that 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:25.280 because it got overwhelmed and in prison approximately fifty percent, 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.200 but the research varies anywhere from like thirty up to 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.040 seventy five. Eighty percent would have an undiagnosed or die 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.360 even diagnosed ADHD condition. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.360 Anon says the rates of dyslexia are very high too, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.840 but of course having a cognitive difference is not a 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.520 prerequisite for prison. Most people with ADHD or dyslexia never 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.920 intercept with the criminal justice system. In fact, we know 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.400 that these types of brains are the innovators, the change makers. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.520 So where is the fork in the road, What might 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:01.120 send someone down the wrong path. I'm imagining that there 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:06.360 are other layers. So if there's another layer of adverse childhood, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.520 of ments or trauma, you're upping the likelihood immensely. Like 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.840 anecdotally do you find there's a mix of the two. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.880 That always and the risk factors are things like a 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:23.560 history of abuse, experience of trauma, and as you rightly say, collectively, 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.080 they increase the risk. And likewise you can have the opposite. 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.600 So if you've got a supportive family, if you've got 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.199 a pro social identity, if you've got empathy, if you 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.440 experience guilt rather than shame, all of these things are 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.520 protective factors which can reduce the risk. 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.760 Of course, socioeconomic status and race have a huge part 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.120 to play too. Ricky Seys he always had complex feelings 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.840 about his racial background growing up, and he now recognizes 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.800 the impact of intergenerational trauma within his FARNO. These all 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.320 contributed to the feeling that he was just different, wrong 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.840 other and in his early twenties, Ricky broke. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.920 Just like, oh my god, who am I? 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.600 I hate myself on a piece of shit, you know, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:17.719 Like I spiraled down and got worse and worse. I 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:24.079 found myself smoking copious amounts of cannabis, and then from cannabis, 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.240 it just went on to drinking every day. And then 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.360 I was involving myself around family members. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:35.760 That were on hard drugs and then found obviously from meth, and. 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.880 That took me, took my life on a whole different 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:43.120 trajectory around a lot of the underclass around Auckland, and 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.800 you know, I found myself going in. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.400 A van and you know, just like doing anything. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.440 To get money, you know, like it could be stealing 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.720 copper or just I can being a rascal and just 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.040 doing unsavory things to feed the habit. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.640 In his early twenties, Ricky was in a bad way. 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.400 He was addicted to myth and his self worth was 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:24.120 rock bottom. 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:31.560 I was desperate to remove myself from an environment that 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.200 I couldn't navigate. I didn't have any support networks. I 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.400 didn't know how to create them, just trying to call 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.319 out for help through services and stuff that were like 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:47.240 your too hard basket, has some fucking antidepressants because we 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.560 don't know what to do, you know, okay, a couple 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:50.280 of respites. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.439 I just couldn't quite figure it out. All I knew 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.719 is that if I was to get like. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:57.600 You know, if I. 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:02.800 Could just get high, I could alleviate my sufferings. 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:04.440 Right, It was not to be social. 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.079 It wasn't to go. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.240 Off and I can go and party and be with 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.000 other light minded individuals. It was for me to go 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.800 back to my space and engage in more savory activities 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.280 like reading, like studying, and like music. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.320 Talk to me about that, because that's something you mentioned 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.040 when we spoke on the phone, and I think that's 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.640 really important about the experience of taking drugs for you. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.160 It would go week to week for me, so around 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.240 the Wednesday and Thursdays when I actually had money or 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.120 managed to flip something off. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:33.840 You know, if I. 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:38.560 Couldn't get anything super strong, I would spend any money 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.400 I had on party pills twenty years ago, you know, 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:47.320 and very very very strong ones, and then take very 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:52.080 very dangerous amounts of them. And what that would do 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.200 would slow me down. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.960 These might have slowed Ricky down at the time, but 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.680 the long term effects were catish, strophic, and it's a 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.320 very real problem in al Taora. There's local research from 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.000 a few years ago that shows those with ADHD are 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.320 three times as likely to have a substance use disorder, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.200 but early treatment with ADHD, medication brings the risk right 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.200 down in line with the rest of the population. I 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.560 ask Anton Ashcroft for his take. Why are ADHD in 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.000 substance abuse so closely connected. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.240 I mean, it's common for ADHD brains to seek that 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.920 immediate hit. So you can take drugs to normalize your brain, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.640 and you can also take drugs to excite your brain, 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.640 and ADHD brains often do both. Neurotypical will take beth 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.280 because it makes them feel ten foot tall and bulletproof, 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.800 and they can often feel a lot more confident and 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.840 words come out much more freely. But for ADHD brains 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.120 absolutely It's the same with coffee that if you have 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.400 a stereotypical physiological response to still mulants, they actually calm 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:06.080 you down. I've got linear thinking. I can focus my thinking. 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.680 I can pay attention to things for a longer period 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.760 of time. Yeah, I feel my God, is this how 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:12.920 normal people feel? 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.480 When I managed to get my hand on stimulance, you 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.760 know I was able to be in my space, I'd 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.400 be calmer, I'd be able to communicate calmly. 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.680 So what you said, well, while other people get this 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.880 kind of you foreign feeling, you. 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.480 Just felt normal that's right, that's right. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:38.200 You felt like like just relief almost, Like is it 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:38.840 what you're saying? 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:43.440 Like just peace, alleviation of the symptoms, peace, be able 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.920 to be comfortable in one space as opposed to needing 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.000 to get up and move from place to place with 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.560 no direction, looking for something that I had no idea 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.200 I was looking for. And you know, I'd go and 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.960 I'd try to connect and communicate of anyone that I 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.880 could when I was under the influence, just to sort 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.680 of emotionally connect with someone to be able to explain 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.840 what was going on. So I would spiral down, and 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:17.199 it was because I couldn't articulate or explain what was 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.360 going on, Like I couldn't go to a doctor at 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.560 that time and go, hey, I'll tell you what does 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.840 fucking work? Some of those party pills are as central 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:26.880 nervous stimulants. 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.480 That gives me baseline, Do you know what I'm saying? 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.439 And that's the predicament many people find themselves in. They 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.000 turn to illicit substances to self medicate, unaware or unable 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.880 to access other treatment options. Ricky was sure there must 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.159 be something legal that could give them clarity because the 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.240 illegal drugs were rea can have it in so many 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:52.800 other ways. 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.240 I'd find myself staying at these respite places like Pathways 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.680 for three days, and you know, I'll be describe things 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.200 like antipsychotics. And it was three days of being able 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.720 to be off the road, you know, out of my 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:12.000 own way, a chance to stop for three days, eat properly, 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.400 sleep properly, take com medication properly. 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.320 And they were like three to five days at a time. 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.040 And I'd been right after that. 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.080 But a brief respite at Pathways was not a long 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.680 term solution. As soon as Ricky was out, the vicious 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.280 cycle would begin again. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:29.840 You know, I had no friends. 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.600 I was unkempt and didn't look after themself, you know, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.960 looking at myself back then, I think I looked at 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.960 my my mug shots and I just and I looked 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:39.600 like a demon. 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.679 I was just like, well, there's no salvation for me. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.120 I'm just gonna do this because if I do this, 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:47.720 I'm definitely going to get caught. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.720 I'm going to go to prison. Man, maybe I should 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:51.320 be in prison. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.720 And so on a Friday morning in September two thousand 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.960 and five, Ricky was high on drugs, but at his 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.960 lowest point, he walked into a bank in East Auckland 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.000 carrying a pistol. He fired a shot in the air, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.560 and he demanded money from the bank teller. What followed 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.840 was a dramatic police chase and a dramatic arrest. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.040 I literally picked myself in prison because I didn't know, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.359 like rest, fite and stuff wasn't working for me for 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:22.440 three days at a time. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.920 I needed somewhere where I could find. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:31.480 That regime, where I could access study and basically have 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.359 my decisions made for me for two years or what 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.560 was for two years ultimately, but I actually felt empowered 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.040 by the idea of having my decisions made for me 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.800 for an unknown amount of time, because, you know, because 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:48.560 I needed their help. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:51.760 I've worked with quite a few offenders who have said 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:57.080 exactly the same. They were broken outside, so they effectively 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.639 got caught so that they could spend some time in 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:04.359 a more structured, predictable and not drug free because drugs 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.720 are prevalent in prison, but limited access to. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:12.000 Drugs, and interestingly, we look at prison as a deterrent. 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.280 But as you say, some of them are like, well, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:15.040 that's where. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:17.679 This is what I'm used to, this is what I know. 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.040 Bring it on and actually to connect with someone and 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.800 have some nourishment and feel as though there's a value 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.640 and a purpose to you and your life. That's way 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:29.360 more powerful. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:48.360 You said, I made a choice that I just regret 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.920 about the burglary, And I thought, was it really a choice? 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.239 I know that you have to be accountable and all 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.520 that stuff, But did you have a choice or was 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.119 it almost inevitable? Was it like was just turning and 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:07.359 that was what was going to happen. Yeah, there's this 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.159 narrative like people know right from wrong, we have to 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.720 have tougher consequences. I think we're coming at this the 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.720 wrong way, like, oh, let's be tougher. It's beyond that 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:19.439 for many people. 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.480 Yeah, because if you've lost respect for yourself, care and 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.560 kindness and love and compassions all out the window. So 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.000 I definitely see it as a inevitable flow on to 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:36.520 something from accountability perspective, it's quite hard for me to 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.840 say that it wasn't a choice, But I totally see 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:40.919 what you're saying. 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:43.359 I guess if we want to look at how we 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:49.000 can help, there's not this kind of continual cycle. The 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.080 answer is not tougher consequences. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.760 No, Yeah, definitely, I totally agree with the answer is 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.840 not tougher, tougher consequences because if you think. 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:03.000 About the rates of recivitism, the rates of recidivism are 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.359 high for all offenders, but particularly for Maori and those 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:11.480 with substance use disorder. The odds were stacked against Treky, 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.119 but he defied them, and learning about his ADHD brain 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:20.479 has helped the process. What led you to getting an 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:24.760 ADHD assessment? Initially, yeah, I have ADHD come into the 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:25.359 picture for you. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:31.439 I had just had a career change from hospitality to 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:38.840 community services, and I found myself just completely completely exhausted. 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.960 People said to me just before my son was born, Oh, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.720 you know, that's that's normal, and I said, no, this 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.920 doesn't feel normal because I've moved from hospitality where I'm 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.320 on my feet twelve hours a day. You know, I 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.639 can look after nine tables in a casino restaurant section. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.040 This is like, this is not normal. 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.960 Ricky's new job was as a caseworker in the disability sector. 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.760 The face to face part of the job was where 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:07.040 he thrived, but the ADMONDT tasks, the systems, the timelines, 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.600 the deadlines, they were his undoing. 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:17.600 I was experiencing anxiety and disorganization within this role in 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:22.040 a way that I'd never quite like, I'd never experienced 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.040 it before. A slip trip and over myself, calling over myself. 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:28.560 I was finding at the end of the day, I 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:30.920 was just like I was cooked and I was done. 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.040 It didn't feel normal, you know. And I'd go back 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.800 to work the next day and I'd literally just. 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:38.200 Experience this paralysis. 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.720 When I went to do my content creation for the day, 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:43.680 I was like, oh no, you know, am I depressed? 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.960 I didn't see well, you know, he got depressed. You know, 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.920