1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,280
Speaker 1: Yes. Winston Peters has concluded his visit to the United

2
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,960
Speaker 1: States without a splash is exactly how our government prefers it.

3
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,160
Speaker 1: Peters has been very diplomatic about his meeting with US

4
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Marco Rubio. He said it was a

5
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,080
Speaker 1: successful meeting, but wouldn't go into many details about what

6
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,800
Speaker 1: the US wants from New Zealand. Malcolm Turnbull is Australia's

7
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 1: former Prime minister. He's been outspoken about standing up to

8
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: the US administration. He joins me now, mister Turnbull, good.

9
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,479
Speaker 2: Afternoon, good afternoon, great to be with you.

10
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,440
Speaker 1: Thank you. Winston Peters has been has concluded as some

11
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: of his meetings in the US, he's been taking a

12
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,320
Speaker 1: sort of head down, headlow, polite, don't say anything to

13
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 1: frighten the horses. Do you agree with that approach.

14
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's probably it's fair enough.

15
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 3: I mean, in a sense, it doesn't really really What

16
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 3: really matters is what he says.

17
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 2: What you say privately, you know, in the.

18
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,560
Speaker 3: Direct discussions, that's the important thing. As long as you're

19
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 3: standing up country. In the private discussions, you can be

20
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 3: as you know, as.

21
00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 2: Just discreet and polite, I suppose flattering. In the in

22
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 2: the pressure releases.

23
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 3: You know, the real the real question is what's happening

24
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 3: inside the room.

25
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: I gather you don't feel quite as constrained these days.

26
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,039
Speaker 3: Well no, look I know, of course not. I'm not

27
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 3: not you know I'm a former prime minister. So but

28
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 3: the no, I'm free to speak my own mind, just

29
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:29,600
Speaker 3: as you are.

30
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 1: Do you think, though, given your position as a former

31
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 1: prime ministrobacy, you have standing and your words are going

32
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: to be obviously reported and get some attention. How do

33
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,679
Speaker 1: you sort of navigate you saying what you really want

34
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: to say versus how is this going to help Australia?

35
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,280
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know we were astray. All of

36
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:51,960
Speaker 2: us have an.

37
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 3: Interest in in free speech. I mean, what can you

38
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 3: just give me an example. I'm struggling to understand the

39
00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 3: point you're trying to make.

40
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 1: I think a few size Donald Trump, and we all

41
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 1: have our feelings about Donald Trump. But if you say

42
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: something that doesn't quite fit him with the Australian government

43
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 1: wants to take a more softly softly approach, and you

44
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 1: sort of put your head above the parapet and attract

45
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 1: his attention in a way that they might not be

46
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,959
Speaker 1: happy with. Is I'm not meaning this as a really

47
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 1: hard question or something, but how do you navigate what

48
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 1: the Australian government wants versus malcol time.

49
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the Australian Government's got to manage its own affairs.

50
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,959
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a you know, I speak my own mind. Yeah,

51
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,040
Speaker 3: And I'm not going to censor myself to avoid the

52
00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 3: wrath of Donald Trump. And I don't think anyone should.

53
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 3: I mean, he he is a bully and he seeks

54
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 3: to well, I mean, look at the ways try and

55
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,400
Speaker 3: look at the extraordinary bullying of.

56
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 2: That Federal Court judge that's going on at the moment.

57
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 3: You know, he's calling for the guy to be impeached

58
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,760
Speaker 3: and called him a radical left wing lunatic and he

59
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,400
Speaker 3: was actually appointed by George W.

60
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 2: Bush.

61
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 3: So and it doesn't look to me to be either radical,

62
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 3: lunatic or left but you know, like it's it's perfectly obvious.

63
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 3: I mean, if a court, I mean, what Trump is

64
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,560
Speaker 3: doing is attacking the judiciary in an attempt to intimidate it.

65
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 3: So that you know, if you're you know, perhaps you

66
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 3: should suggest to Americans that they should censor themselves and

67
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 3: not speak up for fear of being criticized by the President.

68
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 3: I mean, really, I just look, I'm sorry, I'm an

69
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 3: old fashioned free speech person and I believe that you

70
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 3: should people should stand up and state their views. Obviously,

71
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 3: if you're in government, you've you know, you could got

72
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 3: to be more perhaps discrete or tactical than others. But

73
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,119
Speaker 3: but really, you know, you can't let the bullies win,

74
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,840
Speaker 3: and you can't let them go unchecked full stop.

75
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 1: How would you be managing the relationship if you were Prime.

76
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 2: Minister of which country mine or yours?

77
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,200
Speaker 1: Well, let's well you can you can offer your thoughts

78
00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: on either. Let's start with Australia, and then you can.

79
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 3: Well, well, look, I've yeah, starting with Australia, that's the

80
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 3: one I understand the best. Look, you've just got to

81
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,440
Speaker 3: be true to yourself. You've got to stand up for

82
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,760
Speaker 3: your own country. You have to recognize that, particularly with Trump,

83
00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 3: you're dealing with a guy who believes might is right,

84
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 3: who is a bully, I mean, makes no bones about that,

85
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 3: and he's highly transactional. So you've got to set aside

86
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 3: all sorts of sentiment and naive views that you know,

87
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 3: Washington has altruistic views, you know, affection for US I mean,

88
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 3: we kid ourselves in this part of the world that

89
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,239
Speaker 3: you know, we've got a you know, a big big

90
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 3: brother over there in Washington who's always got our best

91
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 3: interests at heart. Now, look, I hope they do, and

92
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,360
Speaker 3: I hope they do most of the time, but you

93
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 3: can't assume that. So we have to stand our ground

94
00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 3: and be as hard headed and objective about our position

95
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,200
Speaker 3: as they are about theirs.

96
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:57,120
Speaker 2: That's it.

97
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 3: It's so in other words, nothing personal, it's business.

98
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 1: What's your take on the negotiations that we've seen sort

99
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 1: of unfolding with the Ukraine and the USA and Russia

100
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,680
Speaker 1: obviously with Putin and Trump.

101
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,159
Speaker 3: Well, look, I hope a peace can be achieved, but

102
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 3: you know, so far, Donald Trump has used his muscle

103
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:27,600
Speaker 3: to force Zelenski to agree to.

104
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 2: You know, to agree to cease fire.

105
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 3: You know, it would have been a lot better if

106
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 3: he'd used his muscle to pressure Putin, but so far

107
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,279
Speaker 3: he's used all the muscle and power to essentially kneecap

108
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 3: Zelenski with drew military assistance, with drew intelligence sharing. Now

109
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 3: that's been restored, so that's good. But now he's got

110
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 3: to deal with Putin, and so far he hasn't really

111
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 3: got anything out of him.

112
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,039
Speaker 2: I mean, they've.

113
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 3: They're a long way from getting to a peace deal.

114
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:03,159
Speaker 3: I'm afraid that they've agreed read to apparently thirty days,

115
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 3: you know, a cessation of attacks on each other's energy infrastructure.

116
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,839
Speaker 3: But then no soon had press that press release gone

117
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 3: out than the Russians attacked the Ukrainian energy infrastructure.

118
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

119
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I have to say, you know, you would

120
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,160
Speaker 3: have hoped that the Trump would have said to Putin

121
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 3: if you don't, you know, come to a realistic deal

122
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,600
Speaker 3: on the that that ensures Ukraine continues as a sovereign,

123
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,719
Speaker 3: independent state, then we will give them, you know, every

124
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,719
Speaker 3: bit of military assistance they need and more. But instead,

125
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,000
Speaker 3: what he's done is effectively sided with the weaker, the invaded,

126
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 3: the wronged party. And that's not very edifying, is it?

127
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:53,120
Speaker 2: Just?

128
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,039
Speaker 1: This might be a slightly trivial question to ask, but

129
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: Trump likes people who if you're a friend to try,

130
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200
Speaker 1: he's a friend to you. He admires Putin.

131
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 2: It seems.

132
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,159
Speaker 1: And I was just curious that Putin kept him waiting

133
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 1: for a couple of hours, and I was wondering, is

134
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,080
Speaker 1: there a point where Trump might decide, actually, maybe Putin's

135
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,120
Speaker 1: not my friend.

136
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. I mean, he is fascinated by Putin.

137
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 3: I've seen that firsthand. But he's but he's you know,

138
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 3: he's fascinated by Putin. He likes strong men, you know,

139
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 3: he likes Erduwan in Turkey, or Ban in Hungary, siegein Ping.

140
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 2: You know that's I guess that's that's what he'd like to.

141
00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 3: Be, you know, a kind of a strong man, a

142
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,280
Speaker 3: dictator that that can't be checked. Didn't he say he

143
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 3: was going to be dictator on day one? I think,

144
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 3: and in the campaign, so you know, Trump does say

145
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 3: the quiet bits out loud. But you know, as far

146
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 3: as friendship concerned, Trump's fallen out with a lot of people.

147
00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,920
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't you know that you suggested that if

148
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 3: Trump is your friend, he's you know, his friend for life.

149
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that is not this.

150
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 3: There are countless people, libraries of books written by people

151
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 3: who's fallen out with.

152
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Malcolm Turnble, thanks for your time. Really appreciated this

153
00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,239
Speaker 1: form of primer. Australian PM Melcom Turnble. It says interesting,

154
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 1: I never had quite worked out my thoughts on his

155
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: approach to diplomacy givenies no longer in the gig. For

156
00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 1: more from Hither duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news

157
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: talks It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the

158
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,240
Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio