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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine

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Speaker 1: from News Talk zedb.

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Speaker 2: Through that right bord of his and away there yo.

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Speaker 2: The All Blacks get three to finish. Japan go down

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Speaker 2: swinging and this one thirty eight thirty one. What a

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Speaker 2: test match we have seen.

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Speaker 3: It was two years ago the last time the All

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Speaker 3: Blacks played Japan. It's their tenth Test match of this

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Speaker 3: year ten to seven tonight, the first of five tests

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Speaker 3: and five weeks to end the year. Much tougher assignments

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Speaker 3: ahead England at Twickenham, Ireland and Dublin, France and Paris

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Speaker 3: across three consecutive weekends before Italy in Rome. To wrap

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Speaker 3: Scott Robertson's first year in charge, Let's bring in thirty

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Speaker 3: four tests, seventy two game All Blacks number eight and

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Speaker 3: astute rugby analyst Murray Mextead Murray. Great to get the

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Speaker 3: chance to chat to you in general terms. First of all,

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Speaker 3: what have you made of the All Blacks performances so

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Speaker 3: far in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: Well, firstly, good afternoon, A very good yeah, Well, I reckon,

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Speaker 4: that's raise is taking it one step at a time

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Speaker 4: and probably having a good hard look at lots of

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Speaker 4: combinations because I think that he was thrown into a

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Speaker 4: hard well, they're all hard, aren't they when you think

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Speaker 4: about it. The All Black program, it was a very

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Speaker 4: difficult program going to South Africa, playing two games Cape

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Speaker 4: Town and in well, Joe Burg and Cape Town, So

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Speaker 4: you know, he's had a tough go and I think

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Speaker 4: lots of things were proven over there. I think that

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Speaker 4: exposed a lot of weaknesses and therefore I'm very very

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Speaker 4: pleased with the team that he selected to play against

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Speaker 4: Japan because there's probably half a dozen guys in that

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Speaker 4: starting lineup that he's having a good look at. To

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Speaker 4: play in that first Test against England, Island and France

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Speaker 4: three in a row, that's a tall order. You know,

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Speaker 4: in any year, that's a hard combination to play three

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Speaker 4: weeks in a row. So it's going to be very

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Speaker 4: interesting this game in Tokyo. I think the team's very

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Speaker 4: clever selection, and I think we're going to get a

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Speaker 4: good opportunity to have a look at five or six

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Speaker 4: players we might figure in the first Test in England.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about a couple of those potential

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Speaker 3: players in a second Murray, But which weaknesses do you

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Speaker 3: think we're exposed in South Africa.

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Speaker 4: Well, the biggest one, most clear to everybody really is

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Speaker 4: the lack of size in comparison to the Springbok forwards.

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Speaker 4: So we were well undersized. And you know, I think

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Speaker 4: if you're going to beat South Africa and South Africa,

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Speaker 4: you've got to target sixty percent possession. Now we didn't

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Speaker 4: achieve that in either of those games, and we've got

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Speaker 4: under fifty in the second game, I believe. So you're

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Speaker 4: not going to beat South Africa and South Africa unless

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Speaker 4: you get more from them and as far as ball goes,

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Speaker 4: and we couldn't do that. We just weren't literally weren't

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Speaker 4: big enough for the aerial possession battle, which we lost.

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Speaker 3: So let's look at the selection then of this team.

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Speaker 3: Actually before we do, did you think Raiser might be

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Speaker 3: more adventurous with his selections up to this point because

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Speaker 3: he's he's kind of stuck with a very solid cores

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Speaker 3: right across the first nine test of the year. Do

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Speaker 3: you think he might be more adventurous?

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Speaker 4: No, I don't I think that. I think he's a

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Speaker 4: very good coach and he's he's a proven coach, which

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Speaker 4: a lot of people are forgetting that. He came back

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Speaker 4: to New Zealand after playing France for a long time

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Speaker 4: coaching over there, he came back to news Own and

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Speaker 4: he did the arts big time, you know, with Canterbury b.

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Speaker 4: I think he started with and then Canterbury and then

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Speaker 4: is fantastic you know, tenure with the Crusaders. So I

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Speaker 4: think that he's a proven coach. What he's not proven

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Speaker 4: at is perhaps selection at international level. And I also

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Speaker 4: think he's a quick learner. And if you're surrounded by

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Speaker 4: really deep thinkers, then you have to try out a

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Speaker 4: lot of players. The other characteristic I think of Raises

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Speaker 4: is loyalty. Once he picks someone, he gives them plenty

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Speaker 4: of opportunity. You know, he really does. He doesn't just

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Speaker 4: look at him for a couple of games and say no,

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Speaker 4: you're not up to it. I'll try someone else. He

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Speaker 4: just gives them another game and another game, hoping he's

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Speaker 4: going to come through. And that's why he developed such

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Speaker 4: incredible loyalty. And you'll see the difference in the Crusader

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Speaker 4: And you know, you've got to have Lorty coach. You've

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Speaker 4: got to have Lordy with his players, he selects if

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Speaker 4: you lose the players on the field, you're gone, you know,

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Speaker 4: because rugby is a true team sport and everyone's got

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Speaker 4: to want to be pushing in the same direction, literally,

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Speaker 4: So I think that he's he's proven in that area

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Speaker 4: and his loyalty is unmatched. But I think this is

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Speaker 4: a new ballgame now we're starting again, and that's why

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Speaker 4: I think this team that play Japan is a very

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Speaker 4: very interesting selection.

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Speaker 3: Do you like the look of Wallace a T team?

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Speaker 4: I don't. I'm too early for me to comment on

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Speaker 4: him to be frank number one. He's been played at

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Speaker 4: blindside blanker most of the time and he's a number eight,

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Speaker 4: so you know you've got to be able to look

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Speaker 4: at him in both positions. I think his selection will

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Speaker 4: depend on who the other two loose forwards are. And

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Speaker 4: I say that objectively because I think that Ardie Severe,

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Speaker 4: you'd have to say, is equally as competent at seven

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Speaker 4: or eight, and how that evolves over the next few

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Speaker 4: weeks will be very interesting to see because you know,

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Speaker 4: we've got a very successful open side flanker. Also on

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Speaker 4: that scene, he's played one hundred games or so. Is

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Speaker 4: need for the All Blacks Sam Caine so he's also there,

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Speaker 4: probably on his last journey with the All Blacks, and

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Speaker 4: I think, in fact he's one of the guys. You know,

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Speaker 4: I sort of I put a circle around the names

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Speaker 4: of the players playing against Japan, and one of the

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Speaker 4: names I circle with his name. So I think it

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Speaker 4: depends and this is the way it should be too.

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Speaker 4: You know, you get selected to play big test matches

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Speaker 4: on performance, don't you, So you know he needs to

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Speaker 4: perform in England. There's no doubt about in Japan to

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Speaker 4: be picked against England. So there's a lot of options

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Speaker 4: at seven and eight. Where I think the complication comes

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Speaker 4: with Satiti is we need a really proven aerial possession

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Speaker 4: man in the back three, and if you have Cain

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Speaker 4: and Severe, you've got to have a six foot six

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Speaker 4: guy somewhere in that back three. Now this is not new,

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Speaker 4: This dates back to you know, even back as far

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Speaker 4: as my playing days are concerned. You know, when you're

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Speaker 4: play in the Northern Hemist, you're going to have four

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Speaker 4: guys who are really good at aerial position. Those four

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Speaker 4: guys are all going to be, you know, over two

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Speaker 4: meters tall. And if you go in there with guys

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Speaker 4: that are you know, I'm mixing up inches and seven

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Speaker 4: meters aren't died. But if you go in there with

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Speaker 4: guys that are six foot one and six foot two,

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Speaker 4: you're just not going to cut the mustard. You're never

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Speaker 4: going to get sixty percent possision. And we need to

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Speaker 4: get sixty percent position in each of these test matches

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Speaker 4: in the UK if we're going to win those games.

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Speaker 3: So the only guy I can think of, yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 3: mix the only guy I can think of? Then that

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Speaker 3: fits the bill of a of a of a six

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Speaker 3: foot six loose forward in this team. If you've got

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Speaker 3: Kane save Titis, Summer Penny female and he hasn't really

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Speaker 3: shown enough, I don't know what you think to justify

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Speaker 3: a place in the best loose forward trio.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you're absolutely correct, well done, you know. I

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Speaker 4: think that that's what's pretty clear though, isn't it? After

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Speaker 4: what I just said? But Pinal is the only guy

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Speaker 4: that's tall enough to compete. You know, he was given

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Speaker 4: a hard baptism, was me. I mean, Johanna's been you'd

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Speaker 4: have to if you're playing the spring blocks in Johannesburg,

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Speaker 4: that would be the hardest game of rugby to play ever.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you look at all the different venues

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Speaker 4: around the world, and I've been spoiled actually and lucky

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Speaker 4: enough to have played in most of those, the game

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Speaker 4: that is the hardest to win is the one when

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Speaker 4: you'd run on the field in Johannesburg, and for countless

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Speaker 4: reasons which I won't go into, but that that is

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Speaker 4: the biggest challenge. So fe now got that challenge and

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Speaker 4: he didn't really come through, did he is what you're saying,

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Speaker 4: and you haven't heard from him since. But I think

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Speaker 4: what Raysor found out in South Africa is that he

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Speaker 4: didn't have any six foot six loose forward who could

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Speaker 4: win bore, you know, and he didn't have two locks

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Speaker 4: who could win bore that level either, because buyers well

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Speaker 4: under well under six foot six. And I think he's

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Speaker 4: playing really well though, so you know, he's another guy

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Speaker 4: that I would think would be in the future, will

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Speaker 4: be looked at as a blindside blanker and additional because

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Speaker 4: he's good in the air with the ball, but he's

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Speaker 4: just not quite big enough to be a lock against

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Speaker 4: the very best in the world when you think they're

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Speaker 4: all six foot eight. You know, we've got to look

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Speaker 4: at the realities and Barrett would be a showan obviously

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Speaker 4: is one of the locks. But do we have another locker?

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Speaker 4: Six foot eight? And I'm looking hard at this guy,

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Speaker 4: Josh Lord, because he's the only guy there that's named

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Speaker 4: I think he's six eight. I think we've probably got

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Speaker 4: another one, haven't we. Who is it now? Yes, one

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Speaker 4: of our other locks? Of course. Yeah, we've got two

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Speaker 4: guys going to on this tour that are six ft

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Speaker 4: six foot seven or six foot eight. But I think

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Speaker 4: Lord would be an interesting guy to see when he

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Speaker 4: comes on the field in this game against Japan, will

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Speaker 4: be very interesting when he appears. Will he come on

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Speaker 4: straight out the halftime on picking? He will? And he's

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Speaker 4: one that they might have to look at in Europe,

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Speaker 4: even though he's a bit of a virgin. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I guess Sam Dow's the other one, isn't he who's

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Speaker 3: starting alongside Patrick to hip a lot too. What did

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Speaker 3: you make of the of the decision to seen ten

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Speaker 3: players on ahead mix?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think this is all part of the plan,

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Speaker 4: isn't it clearly part of the plan. And when I

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Speaker 4: look at the team at that plane, you know it's

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Speaker 4: a really interesting team. We've got a fantastic front row.

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Speaker 4: Our stocks in the front row are really good, and

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Speaker 4: I think Jason Ryan's done a magnificent job, and that's

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Speaker 4: one of the great things. I think that he was picked,

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Speaker 4: you know, in the last regime and started to develop

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Speaker 4: a front row because we were one step behind internationally,

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Speaker 4: and I now think we're one step ahead. So he's

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Speaker 4: got about six or seven or eight guys that are

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Speaker 4: good enough to plan test serious. I'm really pleased with

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Speaker 4: what's going on there. We've got a real challenge in

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Speaker 4: the in the second row, haven't we, Because if if

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Speaker 4: you've listened to what I've just said, we haven't got

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Speaker 4: too many six foot eight locks around and the loose forwards.

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Speaker 4: We haven't got a big loose forward that's been proven

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Speaker 4: yet either. And we're not sure about our open side

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Speaker 4: flanker heir to be. I mean, I was picking Blackadder

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Speaker 4: actually as the next open side flanker after Kane has

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Speaker 4: had his lot, but he's been injured a fair bit

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Speaker 4: and we haven't seen much of that open soide. We've

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Speaker 4: seen more of them a blindside because of the lack

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Speaker 4: of height. But fortunately we've got Ardie Sabia and he

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Speaker 4: can double up. He can play seven or eight equally

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Speaker 4: as well?

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Speaker 3: Does it actually matter?

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Speaker 1: Does it matter?

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Speaker 3: Does it matter in the modern day game, Murray, does

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Speaker 3: it matter which number is on the back of a

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Speaker 3: player in the loose forward trio. I know it goes

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Speaker 3: against what you said about having a tall guy, but

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Speaker 3: for example, Ardie Savey is going to play the same

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Speaker 3: way if he's got seven on his back or eight

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Speaker 3: on his back, isn't he.

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Speaker 4: It's a very contentious question you're asking because you know,

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Speaker 4: you've got to look at the core of what is

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Speaker 4: a core role of the six to seven and the eight.

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Speaker 4: And if you ask most people, they've never thought about it.

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Speaker 4: They may know, but they've never thought about Now, the

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Speaker 4: core role of an open side flanker is to retain

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Speaker 4: and regain possession. That is the core role. So in

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Speaker 4: other words, you're on the open side of the scrum.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't matter who wins the ball in the center of

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Speaker 4: the field. Also, a kickoff doesn't matter who wins the ball.

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Speaker 4: You have an opportunity to retain or regain. So you've

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Speaker 4: got to be the best we've got in New Zealand

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Speaker 4: in that role. And then who's the second closest, who

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Speaker 4: has the second amount of opportunity is a number eight.

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Speaker 4: So you're quite right. Seven and eight both have a

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Speaker 4: mission and their core role is to retain and regain.

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Speaker 4: You know, you've got to add a couple of other

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Speaker 4: attributes too to the number eight, and ideally one of

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Speaker 4: them would be you know, that'd be six or five

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Speaker 4: or so as well, like Karen Reid was an ideal

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Speaker 4: number eight actually because he supported the blindside flanker, line

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Speaker 4: out aerial position in general, kicks and dropouts, et cetera. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so cutting cutting, cut into the chase, you've got to

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Speaker 4: have two really in my view, if you go to England,

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Speaker 4: you're going to play England, Ireland and France, you've actually

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Speaker 4: got to have to loose forwards who are really good

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Speaker 4: in the air, and one of them would have to

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Speaker 4: be good enough to hunt and gather. So you know,

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Speaker 4: hunting and gathering is really important for the seven. In

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Speaker 4: the eighth, the number six is a totally different position.

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Speaker 4: It's the blindside flanker. It has least opportunity to get

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Speaker 4: in the action from set play. He's often the guy

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Speaker 4: either jumping or lifting in the line out less opportunities.

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Speaker 4: So when he does get an opportunity, he's got to

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Speaker 4: make an impact. So you need a really very hard, abrasive, aggressive,

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Speaker 4: blind side flanker that you see when he gets the chance.

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Speaker 4: You know, he hasn't got as much opportunity as the

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Speaker 4: seven and the eighth. So I hope that is simplified

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Speaker 4: for it.

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Speaker 1: No, it has, it has. I look at them.

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Speaker 3: I look at the guys who have worn six this

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Speaker 3: year for the All Blacks, some of Penny female for

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Speaker 3: the first two tests against England, then Jacobson against Fiji,

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Speaker 3: blackadded for three test matches, the two against Argentina and

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Speaker 3: then South Africa, then Sa Titi in the time since

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Speaker 3: and now we're back to female. So of all of them,

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Speaker 3: mex who's who fits the bill best? Is it Titi?

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Speaker 3: Is he because he's physically abrasive as you've outlined?

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Speaker 1: Is he the man?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: Okay, I mean if you had if you had a

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Speaker 4: Karen Reid playing at number eight, you could say, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you could play the Titi at six. But you haven't

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Speaker 4: got a Karen Reid number eight. You've got this numberate

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Speaker 4: in the world. Probably who's you know, not necessarily a

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Speaker 4: lineup for it. Well, he's not a liner forward. You

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Speaker 4: compete against South Africa and England and France and Ireland.

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Speaker 4: So you've got to have a big blind side blanket.

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Speaker 4: And so the only one on that team at the

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Speaker 4: moment is female, which is why I would be looking

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Speaker 4: at Vai as an option at blindside blanket. Does that

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Speaker 4: answer your question? It does? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: But didn't we try this with Scott Barrett? We moved

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Speaker 3: them out of the second row to blindside. Didn't really work.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know did it or did it not

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Speaker 4: really work? My mind is it did work? You see?

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Speaker 4: I reckon that Barrett also could play six. But we

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Speaker 4: haven't got two other six foot eight bloody locks, have we.

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Speaker 4: So you've got to look at the realities. We're short

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Speaker 4: of poor ball winning forwards second row and back row

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Speaker 4: third row. So you know that's my view. You can,

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Speaker 4: you know, you can argue and dispute that, but what

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Speaker 4: you can't dispute is that you've got to get your

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Speaker 4: share of possession, and to beat the big teams away

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Speaker 4: from home, you've got to get more than your share

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Speaker 4: of possession. I don't think anybody, doesn't matter how smart

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Speaker 4: they are, can dispute that.

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Speaker 3: I'm not disputing it at all. I'm not disputing that, no,

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Speaker 3: absolutely for you.

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Speaker 4: Mate, I was probably because you asked me the question.

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Speaker 4: I mean to send that you weren't decided either. But

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Speaker 4: it's something that's been neglected, you know, And it's something

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Speaker 4: that's been forgotten about. But it's very very obvious. You know,

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Speaker 4: if you can have two guys and the loose forwards

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Speaker 4: that can win the ball in the air. Gee, you've

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Speaker 4: got a great head start, haven't you. But they've got

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Speaker 4: to be good too. They're going to be good at

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Speaker 4: their role, you know. So Satiti that's in the same category,

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Speaker 4: really is? It's severe, you know, they're in that same

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Speaker 4: and came to a less extent because I think cane

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Speaker 4: is an out and out open side and nothing else.

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Speaker 4: So you know, severe and sa TDI I think, and

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Speaker 4: the same category, you know, same size, not big enough

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Speaker 4: to compete in the air for aerial possession against guys

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Speaker 4: who are six foot six or six foot eight, you know.

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Speaker 4: So that's a that's a real dinama at the moment.

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Speaker 4: I think that's why females playing against Japan Murray.

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Speaker 3: It's always interesting, very interesting instructive chatting to you. Thanks

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Speaker 3: for taking taking our call and being so generous with

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Speaker 3: your time, might really appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: No problem, See you, Adam, see Aladam Murray.

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Speaker 3: Murray mixed it with as always interesting views on the

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Speaker 3: state of rugby.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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