1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,280
Speaker 1: Now the government's immediately it's announced it's immediately stopping international adoptions.

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: Their Minister Responsible, Nicole McKee, says they're worried about abuse

3
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,959
Speaker 1: and slavery, and they've cited a case of one family

4
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,840
Speaker 1: adopting more than ten children from overseas. Adoption researcher doctor

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: Barbara Sumner is with us right now. Have Barbara hi?

6
00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,200
Speaker 1: How can families I'm well, thank you? How can families

7
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,279
Speaker 1: adopt that many children? Are there no checks? Can you

8
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,439
Speaker 1: just go overseas get a child adopted and bring it back?

9
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,600
Speaker 2: Well, it depends. Yes, you can from some countries and

10
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 2: the government is absolutely right to suspend this and do

11
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 2: it immediately. We're following Canada and the US and the

12
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 2: Dutch where they've made restrictions on a large number of countries,

13
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 2: around twenty four countries that you can no longer adopt

14
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 2: from because they're often not covered by the Hague Convention

15
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,200
Speaker 2: on Into Country Adoption and so they're not required to

16
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,920
Speaker 2: meet those standards.

17
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,280
Speaker 1: How many do you reckon? We have every year?

18
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 2: Well, in general, across all adoptions, we have less than

19
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,880
Speaker 2: one hundred at the moment, and.

20
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: Is that counting domestic adoptions as well?

21
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 2: Yes, although most of them now are surrogacy. There's very

22
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 2: few domestic adoptions. But the issue is much bigger than that,

23
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 2: and it's not as simple. The Minister has said that

24
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 2: then they have been able to bring those children and

25
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 2: young people back to New Zealand where they've been neglected,

26
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,960
Speaker 2: abused or exploited. This is true, but what they're not

27
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 2: talking about is that once they are in the country

28
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 2: they switch to the nineteen fifty five Adoption Act. So

29
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 2: it's a seventy year old act and they so if

30
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 2: you adopt in another jurisdiction and you enter New Zealand

31
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 2: are under our intercountry adoption laws, you switch to the

32
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty five Act. There are no guarantees that any

33
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 2: adoptive home is safe, no checks, no balances, because once

34
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 2: you're under the fifty five Act, there it's not welfare.

35
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 2: It's not treated like any form of welfare. You are

36
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,240
Speaker 2: treated as if you are born to the adopters. You

37
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 2: gain a new birth certificate that shows your adopters as

38
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,040
Speaker 2: your birth parents.

39
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,239
Speaker 1: Oh, I see does that mean like as in, there

40
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 1: is no real reason for OT to come and knock

41
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,400
Speaker 1: on your door and check that the child's okay.

42
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 2: None whatsoever unless the child comes to their attention through

43
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, the normal welfare issues. A teacher, you know,

44
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 2: brings it to their attention, that sort of thing. So

45
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,080
Speaker 2: the government says that it's the abuse is preventable and

46
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 2: acting decisively to prevent future harm to children and adopted

47
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,360
Speaker 2: overseas into unsafe situations. But we don't. You can't have

48
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: it both ways. You can't have a nineteen fifty five

49
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,200
Speaker 2: Act but by the way covers the lives and controls

50
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,800
Speaker 2: the lives of over one hundred thousand people in New

51
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,639
Speaker 2: Zealand and transfer those children to that Act with all

52
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,960
Speaker 2: its restrictions. So, for instance, health records, original birth certificates,

53
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 2: any kind of records that may exist for that adoption

54
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,800
Speaker 2: become secret. They are completely hidden at the point of

55
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,919
Speaker 2: the court order. Right.

56
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 1: So what that sounds like to me is so Nicole

57
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: m Key has only temporarily suspended the adoptions, and obviously

58
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: some things need to change before she lifts that suspension.

59
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: And obviously what needs to change, according to you, as

60
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of legislation.

61
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 2: You can't change one without the other. If you are

62
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 2: changing I mean, what they could do, of course, is

63
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 2: just ban international adoptions from countries that are not signatories

64
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,360
Speaker 2: to the Hay Convention on Into Country Adoption. But it

65
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 2: doesn't change the fact that these children come in and

66
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 2: are then controlled under a seventy year old act. And

67
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, in Aranga Tamariki has made a number of

68
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,839
Speaker 2: submissions to the HAY talking about New Zealand's position and

69
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 2: where we're at with it, and it's very easy to

70
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 2: do a deep dive and discover that they don't always

71
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 2: tell you exactly how it is. So, for instance, o

72
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 2: Anga Tamariki said recently in their most recent submission that

73
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,240
Speaker 2: adoptions that they make sure that the adoption would serve

74
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 2: the best interests of the child, But we have no

75
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,240
Speaker 2: data that tells us what best interest is we have

76
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,080
Speaker 2: there are not a single there's not a single outcome

77
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,839
Speaker 2: study in New Zealand seventy years. We have no idea

78
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 2: of what the long term impacts of adoption are, whether

79
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 2: they are in the best interests of the person.

80
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: Well, as I say, lots of work to do while

81
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,920
Speaker 1: the suspension is underway. Thank you very much, Barbara, Doctor

82
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,600
Speaker 1: Barbara Sumner, adoption researcher. For more from Heather Duplessy, Allen

83
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 1: Drive listen live to news talks it'd be from four

84
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 1: pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio